110 Industries & Yu Suzuki

[BruceWayne911]

Shenmue was a victim of circumstance. The Dreamcast's death and the effect it had on Shenmue II and therefore Shenmue III, development hell with Shenmue Online, SEGA - Sammy very likely killing Shenmue III and more on the original Xbox, even up until now with the mediocre handling of Shenmue III by Deep Silver, and now with the fight to get a season 2 of Shenmue The Animation, having to wade through the sale of Crunchyroll as well as the merger of Discovery and Warner Media, who owns Cartoon Network and Adult Swim/Toonami.

In my eyes, it is stupid to look at Shenmue through the lens of 2001 from a business perspective, but what do I know? Maybe SEGA is weighing getting involved, maybe they were waiting to see how Shenmue III did before potentially backing Shenmue IV. We will likely never know.

I agree that the SEGA we have today is not the SEGA we had during the hardware days. Though I will take the SEGA that has given us the portfolio it has put out this gen, compared to the early 360/PS3/Wii days, where we had gems like Golden Axe: Beast RIder, Iron Man, and Daisy Fuentes Pilates. We've gotten Shenmue I & II, Shenmue The Animation, and Shenmue III, Rez Infinite, Streets Of Rage 4, Panzer Dragoon: Remake, and The House Of The Dead: Remake, and Space Channel 5 VR: Kinda Funky News Flash. Now, outside of the rereleases and the anime, the rest have only had a supervisory role/creative input from SEGA, but they are still SEGA games. We also had Valkyria Chronicles 4, multiple Yakuza/Sonic games, including Sonic Mania, Super Monkey Ball games, a new Sakura Wars, new mini hardware (Astro City, Mega Drive/Genesis, and Game Gear), compilations like Mega Drive/Genesis Classics, SEGA AGES games, The House Of The Dead: Scarlet Dawn, Puyo Puyo entries, Phantasy Star Online 2: New Genesis, Virtua Fighter 5: Ultimate Showdown, ChuChu Rocket! Universe, and of course entries in the Total War, Football Manager, and Hatsune Miku franchises, which all do fairly well sales wise, obviously.

All fo that is a HUGE step forward compared to before the PS4/Xbox One/Switch generation. I'd argue that SEGA have been putting out their best content since the Dreamcast/immediate post Dreamcast days (ports and releases of cancelled Dreamcast games to Xbox/GameCube/PS2 like Shenmue II, Panzer Dragoon Orta, etc.).

I dont see Sega getting involved or even trying. Sega makes no comments or shows any involvement. The longer time goes on it most likely looks like we are alone in this battle. The budget of Shenmue 3 seems like it was 20M that figure is more than likely out of reach for Sega. Everything suggest that Shenmue is trending upward: Shenmue 3 did okay, Shenmue 1&2 sold good, Shenmue did better than expected and still no praise or confirmation from Sega. Its very telling from Big Blue.

 

[24Nathan]

I dont see Sega getting involved or even trying. Sega makes no comments or shows any involvement. The longer time goes on it most likely looks like we are alone in this battle. The budget of Shenmue 3 seems like it was 20M that figure is more than likely out of reach for Sega. Everything suggest that Shenmue is trending upward: Shenmue 3 did okay, Shenmue 1&2 sold good, Shenmue did better than expected and still no praise or confirmation from Sega. Its very telling from Big Blue.

I agree with all of that. Shenmue is also a difficult subject, as evidenced in my previous post. But with Shenmue III and the anime, you could make the argument that neither of those things were their projects, but rather just projects based on their IP. I still am irritated that they barely have said ANYTHING about either project. They didn't even tweet about Shenmue III on its release day, and after the initial trailer being shared on social media, SEGA West has said nothing about the anime. SEGA Japan is generally better, sharing all of the trailers, castings, and several things about the anime, and then of course doing a little bit of merchandising and marketing for III in Japan. It's an odd relationship SEGA has with the IP. It's even more maddening when they DO post on social media about games like SOR4, PD: Remake, SC5 VR, etc.

 

[Suzaku]

20 million was the grand total of the money "moved" during the entire project, but the development was done with just the KS budget and later the help from Deep Silver, so we probably don't even reach 10 million.

If Sega decide to develop Shenmue 4, it would probably cost even less than a Yakuza game.

 

[24Nathan]

Finally I've seen it all. You killed me XD

Daisy Fuentes Pilates

Are you ready to get fit in a fun new way? The first Wii Pilates title is coming! You’ve heard celebrities talk about the wonders of Pilates, now you can firm, tone, and strengthen your body in the comfort of your home. Set in a lush tropical resort hosted by Daisy Fuentes, a world famous TV...

www.metacritic.com

Iron Man

An all-new single-player, third-person, action-adventure Iron Man video game is now in early development at Montreal-based Motive Studio. Developed in collaboration with Marvel Games, the game will feature an original narrative that taps into the rich history of Iron Man, channeling the...

www.metacritic.com

Golden Axe: Beast Rider

Golden Axe: Beast Rider delivers action-RPG thrills as a small band of Riders embark on an epic adventure to recruit allies, expose the enemy and prevent the annihilation of their breed. Delivering an intense and unique combat experience, players charge into battle on the backs of ferocious...

www.metacritic.com

SEGA released some pretty terrible games in the late 2000s/early 2010s...

 

[Suzaku]

Daisy Fuentes Pilates

Are you ready to get fit in a fun new way? The first Wii Pilates title is coming! You’ve heard celebrities talk about the wonders of Pilates, now you can firm, tone, and strengthen your body in the comfort of your home. Set in a lush tropical resort hosted by Daisy Fuentes, a world famous TV...

www.metacritic.com

Iron Man

An all-new single-player, third-person, action-adventure Iron Man video game is now in early development at Montreal-based Motive Studio. Developed in collaboration with Marvel Games, the game will feature an original narrative that taps into the rich history of Iron Man, channeling the...

www.metacritic.com

Golden Axe: Beast Rider

Golden Axe: Beast Rider delivers action-RPG thrills as a small band of Riders embark on an epic adventure to recruit allies, expose the enemy and prevent the annihilation of their breed. Delivering an intense and unique combat experience, players charge into battle on the backs of ferocious...

www.metacritic.com

SEGA released some pretty terrible games in the late 2000s/early 2010s...

so many masterpieces
sad times, probably the worst generation not only for Sega.

 

[24Nathan]

so many masterpieces
sad times, probably the worst generation not only for Sega.

I was looking back at some of their other games from this time...Hardy Boys, Marvel license games...ugh.

 

[darksniper]

I dont see Sega getting involved or even trying. Sega makes no comments or shows any involvement. The longer time goes on it most likely looks like we are alone in this battle. The budget of Shenmue 3 seems like it was 20M that figure is more than likely out of reach for Sega. Everything suggest that Shenmue is trending upward: Shenmue 3 did okay, Shenmue 1&2 sold good, Shenmue did better than expected and still no praise or confirmation from Sega. Its very telling from Big Blue.

Something tells me there's an internal conflict between the old guard and the new guard within SEGA, Shenmue is caught in the crossfire of this. Meaning the younger generation of SEGA fans who were born in the mid-late 70's to late 80's have more of a position of influence within the company and completely understand Shenmue's value. This is why the hype for Shenmue III was very real and also why we're slowly seeing sequels being trickled out for highly requested Sega IP (i.e.Streets Of Rage 4)

The thing that throws a monkey wrench in your point though is if I'm not mistaken, Sega was getting ready to bankroll a remake of Shenmue I and II before D3T opted to port the DC versions due to time constraints. Despite the clear neglect Shenmue has had over the years, I thought it was quite surprising that Sega would even allocate that much budget to a full fledged Shenmue remake which would help the series greatly.

 

[Spaghetti]

20 million was the grand total of the money "moved" during the entire project, but the development was done with just the KS budget and later the help from Deep Silver, so we probably don't even reach 10 million.

If Sega decide to develop Shenmue 4, it would probably cost even less than a Yakuza game.

Yes. The actual brass tacks development budget of Shenmue III is still unknown, and $20 million has always felt a little off to me. I seem to remember a figure in Yen being thrown around too post-release that didn't match the dollar figure, but it's really neither here nor there.

Fees and reward fulfilment took a hefty chunk out of the crowdfunded portion of the budget, Shibuya probably put low single digit millions in, and Deep Silver covered the rest which probably afforded us some underappreciated flourishes like being able to do the VO in Los Angeles. It's still a very modest budget to achieve an authentic Shenmue experience, and I'm sure they stretched practically every penny in the end.

As for whether Shenmue IV would be less costly than a new Yakuza game... maybe? Yakuza is apparently SEGA's most expensive series to produce, but it made good financial returns for a long time with only a domestic Japanese release, so it's hard to guesstimate a ballpark budget.

RGG Studio reuse assets to the point of hilarity, and I wouldn't be surprised if a significant portion of the budget is ringfenced exclusively for Japanese celebrity voices and likenesses. Shenmue's costs swing more towards content creation and artwork, so on that basis you could say it's a less "predictable" cost, but could it be less overall? Yeah, now that there's a base of technology to work from and if approached with a very strict plan of attack.

SEGA's hesitancy around Shenmue is more political than economic these days, IMO.

 

[BruceWayne911]

Something tells me there's an internal conflict between the old guard and the new guard within SEGA, Shenmue is caught in the crossfire of this. Meaning the younger generation of SEGA fans who were born in the mid-late 70's to late 80's have more of a position of influence within the company and completely understand Shenmue's value. This is why the hype for Shenmue III was very real and also why we're slowly seeing sequels being trickled out for highly requested Sega IP (i.e.Streets Of Rage 4)

The thing that throws a monkey wrench in your point though is if I'm not mistaken, Sega was getting ready to bankroll a remake of Shenmue I and II before D3T opted to port the DC versions due to time constraints. Despite the clear neglect Shenmue has had over the years, I thought it was quite surprising that Sega would even allocate that much budget to a full fledged Shenmue remake which would help the series greatly.

I'm glad Sega didn't invest in Shenmue 1&2 remake. I'd rather see money and resources being pushed toward concluding the story than revisiting the past. Been there done that IMO.

 

[24Nathan]

I'm glad Sega didn't invest in Shenmue 1&2 remake. I'd rather see money and resources being pushed toward concluding the story than revisiting the past. Been there done that IMO.

I wonder if the thinking behind the remake was something along the lines of a Yakuza 0 "breath of fresh air" for the series. The remake is known to predate the rereleases...something I guess we may never know.

 

[Gevaudian]

I wonder if the thinking behind the remake was something along the lines of a Yakuza 0 "breath of fresh air" for the series. The remake is known to predate the rereleases...something I guess we may never know.

i really think giving shenmue 1 and 2 the yakuza zero treatment would have been the best way to go and would have lead to a better shenmue 3 and new fans. trying to get new people to play the remasters we got was a tough sell, i know we all love it but to everyone else it just looks like a ps2 era game with dated voice acting

 

[9dragons]

i really think giving shenmue 1 and 2 the yakuza zero treatment would have been the best way to go and would have lead to a better shenmue 3 and new fans. trying to get new people to play the remasters we got was a tough sell, i know we all love it but to everyone else it just looks like a ps2 era game with dated voice acting

There is nothing wrong with that. A Shenmue game that is forced to cater to modern gaming tropes would be a completely different game.

One core element of Shenmue is exploring how is this exploring element supposed to work with blinking icons everywhere.

Shenmue is Shenmue. A modernized Shenmue would not be Shenmue anymore. That may sound sad because that fact makes it more difficult to bring a bigger audience to Shenmue but it is true.

 

[Suzaku]

I was looking back at some of their other games from this time...Hardy Boys, Marvel license games...ugh.

there were a few good games by Sega Japan, especially the arcades (VF5, Virtua Tennis 3, Virtual On Force, Afterburner Climax and House of the dead 4) and some decent Sonic games.
But some of the good games were digital only (just to add salt to injury), the rest was a sad show of bad licensed games (Marvel, random movie stuff etc.), third party published games that had nothing of "Sega" etc.

Really sad times, wish there was a "refund" for that console generation...

 

[Suzaku]

Yes. The actual brass tacks development budget of Shenmue III is still unknown, and $20 million has always felt a little off to me. I seem to remember a figure in Yen being thrown around too post-release that didn't match the dollar figure, but it's really neither here nor there.

Fees and reward fulfilment took a hefty chunk out of the crowdfunded portion of the budget, Shibuya probably put low single digit millions in, and Deep Silver covered the rest which probably afforded us some underappreciated flourishes like being able to do the VO in Los Angeles. It's still a very modest budget to achieve an authentic Shenmue experience, and I'm sure they stretched practically every penny in the end.

As for whether Shenmue IV would be less costly than a new Yakuza game... maybe? Yakuza is apparently SEGA's most expensive series to produce, but it made good financial returns for a long time with only a domestic Japanese release, so it's hard to guesstimate a ballpark budget.

RGG Studio reuse assets to the point of hilarity, and I wouldn't be surprised if a significant portion of the budget is ringfenced exclusively for Japanese celebrity voices and likenesses. Shenmue's costs swing more towards content creation and artwork, so on that basis you could say it's a less "predictable" cost, but could it be less overall? Yeah, now that there's a base of technology to work from and if approached with a very strict plan of attack.

SEGA's hesitancy around Shenmue is more political than economic these days, IMO.

Exactly
If I remember correctly, back in the Yakuza 3 or 4 days, the mentioned a budget around 13 million.

You anticipated me about this, lately a good portion of the budget of modern Yakuza games is spent to call actors and celebrities, more than the actual game.
Without the celebrities, and counting all the recycled assets (I agree it's hilarious at this point lol ) and the development studio that's more an assembly line with more than a decade of experience, probably the cost of any new yakuza game would be a single digit too.

But I think with Shenmue 3, Yu showed the world that he is one of the best around even at managing resources, probably no one would've been able to achieve all that with that modest budget (7-10million max) that changed even in the mid of development: he created a shenmue game from scratch, had the game fully voiced (unlike Yakuza games), created and organized a brand new team, created new systems, he was able to achieve a seamsless experiene even more than Yakuza, and didn't have the luxury of recycled assets (apart for the music).
I think Nagoshi, Kojima etc. in the same conditions, they would have developed just a PS2-tier game...

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Maybe now with Nagoshi out of the door, there are more chances to see Sega refocusing on Shenmue and other Sega IPs.

No surprise that you're still taking shots at the guy for no reason.

You're just as bad as the people attacking Suzuki over 'mue.

Where did you get these? I remember seeing the Sakura Wars game was from sales reports they said the series had sold x amount before the new entry, then a new report saying it had sold x amount after the new game.

Wonder about Refrain, whether or not it as seen as a failure, since it was basically a remaster. I just finished The House Of The Dead: Overkill on PS3 and read that SEGA was happy with 45k sold in it's debut month. Just always been serious about how SEGA might view different games through different lenses, obviously depending on budget.

He pulls numbers out of his ass and claims they're truth: when I linked Japanese sites from the early 2010s that accurately reported the RGG sales in Japan and worldwide, he claimed them all bullshit and that his numbers were the real thing.

Just ignore him.

Amazed he actually quoted a correct thing this time around, but of course he spins it to attack Nagosh.

 

[spud1897]

Exactly
If I remember correctly, back in the Yakuza 3 or 4 days, the mentioned a budget around 13 million.

You anticipated me about this, lately a good portion of the budget of modern Yakuza games is spent to call actors and celebrities, more than the actual game.
Without the celebrities, and counting all the recycled assets (I agree it's hilarious at this point lol ) and the development studio that's more an assembly line with more than a decade of experience, probably the cost of any new yakuza game would be a single digit too.

But I think with Shenmue 3, Yu showed the world that he is one of the best around even at managing resources, probably no one would've been able to achieve all that with that modest budget (7-10million max) that changed even in the mid of development: he created a shenmue game from scratch, had the game fully voiced (unlike Yakuza games), created and organized a brand new team, created new systems, he was able to achieve a seamsless experiene even more than Yakuza, and didn't have the luxury of recycled assets (apart for the music).
I think Nagoshi, Kojima etc. in the same conditions, they would have developed just a PS2-tier game...

So the way I work out the budget for Shenmue 3 which includes everything is as follows (based on guesswork, what I've been told via interviews and public information).

1. Overall budget was $20 million. Yu Suzuki told IGN Japan this himself. Check Phantom River Stone for the article. $7million was kickstarter funds and $13 million private investment. Marketing for a game is a minimum of 20% of budget. So that $20m becomes $16m. Out of the $7m kickstarter raised 35% went to backer rewards and kickstarter fees. So that's $2.45m down. Leaving $13.55m overall left.

2. That $13.55m has to pay for motion capture (including editing and reshoots) and 2 dubs which could easily roll in at $3m all in so that leaves $10.55m for the development.

3. The budget was never static. Deep Silver came in in 2017. So they had to scale up what they were doing. That's never an easy thing to do. It's much easier to work on a set budget.

4. The remaining budget has to pay not only development costs but QA, submissions to PSN for download, production costs, and running costs.

 

[Suzaku]

No surprise that you're still taking shots at the guy for no reason.

You're just as bad as the people attacking Suzuki over 'mue.

here comes the toxic "nagoshi defence force"...
goodbye to the peaceful discussion.

He pulls numbers out of his ass and claims they're truth: when I linked Japanese sites from the early 2010s that accurately reported the RGG sales in Japan and worldwide, he claimed them all bullshit and that his numbers were the real thing.

Just ignore him.

Amazed he actually quoted a correct thing this time around, but of course he spins it to attack Nagosh.

You are a liar truck and you know it.
You have a grudge after all these years because when I posted real japanese data from japanese source (it's all still saved on this site unfortunately for you), your pathetic argument were destroyed, and now everytime I mention Yakuza, you jump at me.

If you have problem with me, use PM, don't ruin the discussion to everyone with your pathetic trolling

 

[Suzaku]

So the way I work out the budget for Shenmue 3 which includes everything is as follows (based on guesswork, what I've been told via interviews and public information).

1. Overall budget was $20 million. Yu Suzuki told IGN Japan this himself. Check Phantom River Stone for the article. $7million was kickstarter funds and $13 million private investment. Marketing for a game is a minimum of 20% of budget. So that $20m becomes $16m. Out of the $7m kickstarter raised 35% went to backer rewards and kickstarter fees. So that's $2.45m down. Leaving $13.55m overall left.

2. That $13.55m has to pay for motion capture (including editing and reshoots) and 2 dubs which could easily roll in at $3m all in so that leaves $10.55m for the development.

3. The budget was never static. Deep Silver came in in 2017. So they had to scale up what they were doing. That's never an easy thing to do. It's much easier to work on a set budget.

4. The remaining budget has to pay not only development costs but QA, submissions to PSN for download, production costs, and running costs.

Yu Suzuki mentioned that 20 million was the total money moved during the entire project, BUT he also said the actual development was done mainly with kickstarter money.

So we have around $7 million from KS (together with the slacked backer), from this you have to remove the KS fees and rewards, so we have from 28% to 35% lost, so the real development budget from KS was around 5 million.

Shibuya production probably invested 1 million, maybe 2.

Deep Silver arrived later and increased the budget, but I don't see them pouring more the 2-3 million.

The rest was marketing money from Sony (for E3 2005), marketing from Deep Silver, the Epic Games deal (a deal between Epic and Deep Silver).

When counting all this, we barely reach 10 million for the development budget, but if Yu said that the main part come from KS, it means that the external help is lower than the KS 5 million.

 

[spud1897]

Yu Suzuki mentioned that 20 million was the total money moved during the entire project, BUT he also said the actual development was done mainly with kickstarter money.

So we have around $7 million from KS (together with the slacked backer), from this you have to remove the KS fees and rewards, so we have from 28% to 35% lost, so the real development budget from KS was around 5 million.

Shibuya production probably invested 1 million, maybe 2.

Deep Silver arrived later and increased the budget, but I don't see them pouring more the 2-3 million.

The rest was marketing money from Sony (for E3 2005), marketing from Deep Silver, the Epic Games deal (a deal between Epic and Deep Silver).

When counting all this, we barely reach 10 million for the development budget, but if Yu said that the main part come from KS, it means that the external help is lower than the KS 5 million.

Do you have a source for where he's stated the use of the Kickstarter money? Originally before DS etc came in I'd agree with this but there's no way they would have put in such a menial amount, not with the Epic deal, which we know Control had one for about $10m and I understand, from several sources that the Epic deal helped DS recover their investment. Shenmue was a bigger name too so you'd think it would have attracted a similar figure. Also from a $20m total budget I can't see how they blew a load of that on just marketing.

Think back to this Kickstarter update:



'Some stretch goals that were reached during the campaign were not able to be implemented. There were also stretch goals not reached that were able to be implemented. Development began in line with the stretch goal content, but with the addition of sales partners during production, we were able to increase our development budget. In order to maximize game quality under the adjusted budget, game planning was fundamentally altered and ultimately allowed us to incorporate a number of different elements beyond our original expectations. Listed here are the major changes.'

To fundamentally change the development would mean some sort of significant investment and not such a low figure. Of course I don't have an accurate figure but this is based off of what YSNET themselves have stated publicly.

Shibuya were the largest investor external to the Kickstarter before Deep Silver came along. Now we don't have a clue how much they put in, nor Sony and it is plausible between the 2 partners they put in enough to make $10m before Deep Silver came in. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility DS threw in $10m which would have helped things massively.

 

[Suzaku]

Unfortunately I can't remember the precise source where Yu said that, but it was mentioned even here in the dojo.

DS that forks $10 million I think it's beyond the realm of possibilities.
The real money in that $20 million figure came probably from Epic like you also said, but it was a DS-Epic things only, YSnet never saw those money.
And in the end the Epic deal didn't helped our cause, since Deep Silver basically got those money and run away, leaving us with no Shenmue 4 and with a bad statement "Shenmue 3 is niche", probably doing ever more damage to the Shenmue brand.


About stretch goals, after DS came in, some goals were reached (most to show they expanded both bailu and niaowu), but some things were cutted, like the character perpective system, the high ground battle system and Baisha.
Magic Maze, the last goal at $11 million wasn't implemented.

https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/025/678/804/ab348ee85cf865c98cc6e2189f71e423_original.png?ixlib=rb-2.1.0&w=700&fit=max&v=1562062380&auto=format&gif-q=50&lossless=true&s=e6833bb2e6842e9418ad6a8caa0275be

Of course that's a over-semplification because Deep Silver budget arrived late during the development, but if we really had a development budget around $15 million, there wouldn't be all those compromises, even the lack of throws that is the result of poor motion capture tools YsNet had, that was something they could've easily solved if they had a budget that big.

If we count instead a dev. budget of $5 million KS + 3-4 million from DS, then things like the lack of throws, area cut etc make sense.