110 Industries & Yu Suzuki

[~ ひかり ~]

They didn't even let Yu use Sega likeness for capsule toys or arcade games. That's very telling imo I remember being shocked and confused at this decision and I believe it took away from the experience.

I'm playing Shenmue III and now i wonder about what happened in relation to this. In Bailu Village at the Hi-Tech Land Panda we can see the image of Pai Chan of Virtua Fighter, to me this character is Pai Chan, also there we can see Excite QTE 3 with the SEGA logo. In Niaowu i don't remember now if we can see something SEGA related at the arcade.

​

I wonder what happened about this, SEGA let Yu Suzuki to put just a few SEGA things in the game?

 

[Sonoshee]

Maybe it’s Yu who doesn’t want to work with Sega and not the other way around? I can’t say that I’d blame him after the way that they treated him after Shenmue 2.

From what I understand Yu is still very fond of Sega.
And I couldn't really see him turning down millions from them to get S4 made if it was ever on the table.
On top of that, the possibility of reusing the VF engine and Sega IP's as capsule toys would be a hard thing to pass up I'd imagine.

 

[Suzaku]

It's still their franchise at the end of the day and one that really needs seeing through to the end.
Were there any other Sega franchises like Shenmue that didn't see the story finished?
They could have put in a fraction of the budget of a Sonic and Yakuza game to help get the franchise concluded, with Yu securing funding from other parties if need be. They even poured $20 million into Shenmue Online that never saw release.
Sega had no involvement in S3 except for lending Yu the license.
It's about time they pulled their socks up and helped the franchise get the conclusion it deserves.

Maybe now with Nagoshi out of the door, there are more chances to see Sega refocusing on Shenmue and other Sega IPs.

 

[24Nathan]

I wouldn't necessarily say that Sega should fund Shenmue IV for their image and the fact they also fund countless Sonic and Yakuza sequels, since they're a business at the end of the day and Sonic/Yakuza have been pretty successful.

For me it's the fact that they've spent a lot of money on a bunch of other failed projects where I have a hard time seeing how those were a better investment than Shenmue III to V. Games like Sakura Wars, Shining Resonance Refrain, Valkyria Revolution, etc., let alone many more games the past 10-15 years.

Do we know how any of those games sold? Critically, I believe they at least did okay. I have played through all of the ones you mentioned and enjoyed them all, personally. I would give up any of them for a SEGA funded Shenmue IV, but I still like all of those games.

 

[Suzaku]

Sakura Wars sold 300k in fiscal year 2020, don't know the total
Valkyria Revolution was around 200k
Shining Resonace Refrain debuted in japan with 23k

As you see we aren't talking about huge numbers, apart Valkyria Chronicles 4 that reached 1 million across all platforms.

 

[Sonoshee]

Maybe now with Nagoshi out of the door, there are more chances to see Sega refocusing on Shenmue and other Sega IPs.

I just find it a little ironic that Sega supported the heck out of Nagoshi and he ends up leaving.
Yu was practically phased out with no other option but to retire from the company after giving them the best years of his career.
The man deserves to see his magnum opus finished.

 

[Spaghetti]

Maybe it’s Yu who doesn’t want to work with Sega and not the other way around? I can’t say that I’d blame him after the way that they treated him after Shenmue 2.

It's likely complicated.

I wouldn't blame Yu for resenting SEGA mothballing him and cancelling his post-Shenmue II projects, but at the same time even after he left the company officially he remained on some advisory panel and they allowed him to use the Shenmue and Virtua Fighter IP. Might have even let him use the Space Harrier IP for a prototype build that used a phone gyroscope and a swivelling office chair, but never got picked up.

Ultimately, I think Yu likes his independence even if he misses the perks of big budget game production. An arm's length relationship is fine I guess, but if SEGA could lend staff, technology, and access to their state of the art mocap studio...

 

[ShenSun]

Part of me is weirdly expecting some form of miracle to happen that will lead to Shenmue 4.

Honestly, we've had so many convenient miracles with this franchise over the last few years that I've lost count

• A french multimillionaire fan helping to resurrect the franchise
• Sony partnering with Ysnet for Shenmue 3
• The Shenmue Kickstarter breaking its target and shattering world records
• Deep Shitver injecting money into Shenmue 3
• Shenmue HD getting created and released
• The creator of Toonami and adultswim being a massive Shenmue Fan and getting the anime created
• The Anime doing really well
• The limit run games company stating they would fund a Shenmue 5
• Rich fans injecting money and resources into the franchise to keep it alive (see above)
• Yu Suzuki still passionately working even though he's in mid 60s
• The 110 stuff if true

What are the chances of that happening again with any other franchise? Next to none id bet, especially from the dreamcast era where almost all of the dreamcast franchises are pretty much dead and buried.

So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if some random unexpected miracle occurs again that leads to Shenmue 4 and 5.

Just some weird, random thoughts I had.

 

[Suzaku]

I just find it a little ironic that Sega supported the heck out of Nagoshi and he ends up leaving.
Yu was practically phased out with no other option but to retire from the company after giving them the best years of his career.
The man deserves to see his magnum opus finished.

It's ironic and sad.
Suzuki literally created Sega and was treated really bad in the end.
Nagoshi instead transformed Sega into his personal paradise, making it a "Yakuza-only" company, where even Sonic was left behind.

Probably Suzuki (and all other ex key figures) was driven away so the "new Sega" could advance...

Last year there were some japanese rumors that said someone in Sega were fed up with all this (talking also about the free dinners that Nagoshi had with Sony executives etc.) and they demoted Nagoshi, maybe forcing him to resign just like they did with Suzuki.
After all when you think about it, why a man in his position should decide to resign? To establish a new company to continue to make similar games that he could've made in Sega...mmm

But like Yu says, "rumor are just rumor"...

 

[24Nathan]

Sakura Wars sold 300k in fiscal year 2020, don't know the total
Valkyria Revolution was around 200k
Shining Resonace Refrain debuted in japan with 23k

As you see we aren't talking about huge numbers, apart Valkyria Chronicles 4 that reached 1 million across all platforms.

Where did you get these? I remember seeing the Sakura Wars game was from sales reports they said the series had sold x amount before the new entry, then a new report saying it had sold x amount after the new game.

Wonder about Refrain, whether or not it as seen as a failure, since it was basically a remaster. I just finished The House Of The Dead: Overkill on PS3 and read that SEGA was happy with 45k sold in it's debut month. Just always been serious about how SEGA might view different games through different lenses, obviously depending on budget.

 

[Seaman]

I mean, when a E3 event Shenmue hype, a record number kickstarter campaign
and funding + publishing by Segas own EU distributor (Koch Media) doesnt get Sega involved
then nothing will get them on board.

Like, how is any scenario going to beat that as a new starting point? That was the hype top peak level.
That was the perfect point for them to at least say alright lets co produce this with Deep Silver
(a company that is already a partner of Sega for years now)
And yet, Sega still said nope.

That was unbeatable but keep in mind that wasnt nowadays Sega, with Atlus bought and all. Maybe this time they jump in.

 

[Tosh]

I mean you can say what you want about the Yakuza franchise and like or dislike what you want
but in the end after a lot of struggle, they finally made Yakuza popular worldwide.
The internet is full of Yakuza / Kiryu memes and they all came with the western version of Yakuza 0.
Until that point, Yakuza was a niche series for asian fans and hardcore nerd fans in the west.
Basically 98,5% of the western gaming audience had no clue was Yakuza was about.
English Yakuza playthrough videos on Youtube had like 50 clicks.
The international hardcore fans literally had to beg Sega on their knees to finally get a english version of Yakuza 5
and that was digital only. (released 3 years after the japanese version!!)
Yakuza wasnt some golden project that just exploded in success.

It only worked because Sega literally gave this whole thing a final and new push by going all in on
a prequel (Yakuza 0) that everyone could use as a new starting point and by hiring
a new english localisation team. That was the point that got all of the big Twitch streamers and Youtubers involved.
Then Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio made new versions of all the old Yakuza games
and released all of them in a time frame of like 4 years so that all the new Yakuza 0 players
were able to catch up. And then because of a advice Sega got from Koch Media,
they agreed to translate their new games into german, spanish etc too
which then helped games like Judgment because none english / japanese speaking people
could finally enjoy this stuff.

If Sega wouldnt have chosen this Yakuza 0 path, Yakuza would still be a super small series
for some ultra japan fans and nobody would know about the end of Kiryus storyline.
So if you think that Yakuza always was a big international success,
thats not true at all. It took them 11-14 years to get it on the right track.
It was literally almost game over at one point for the western audience.

 

[Sonoshee]

Yakuza got that chance. Shenmue didn't.

If Sega had backed Shenmue the way they have Yakuza, I'm optimistic we'd have seen the franchise become bigger than it is.

 

[thedemon1238]

CSK Corporation SEGA (Shenmue, Dreamcast and so on) is a game company that exist between 1982-2001 Thats the SEGA that we all love. Тhat takes risks, makes inovation and so on...

The Software SEGA is a company that exist between 2001-2004. This company was in a pretty bad situation and had to make money at all costs. That is the reason for so many dc ports for other consoles, many canceled projects and exclusive deals with microsoft, sony and nintendo...

SAMMY SEGA (2004-till now) is completely different company with new owners, new business practices, no risks, etc.


Yakuza games became popular because of persistence over the years and Nagoshi's experience. One of the reasons they've been successful for so many years is that they reuse many locations, minigames and assets in each subsequent installment. This makes the budget much smaller and is something that Shenmue can't do because it's a different type of game. Also the Yakuza games sells very well in Japan and even if they didn't find success worldwide, there would be new sequels. I like all the games, but totally love Yakuza Like A Dragon. It's awesome. :) Shenmue is of course a completely different league and far above Yakuza, but... Yakuza is a very good game too.

Sammy's business, before the "merger" with SEGA , was gambling and pachinko. As you may know, usually the Yakuza runs this kind of business in Japan. Yakuza games have been attractive to Sammy's boss, who is also currently SEGA's boss. Some says that these kind of games were good advertising for the business. I'm not so sure about that. :)

For Sega Sammy Holdings Shenmue is a risk.... until proven otherwise. :) But even if they don't want to take risks with the game, renting the license is not a risk. Safe money from nothing. At least they won't be an obstacle. (large)

 

[Suzaku]

Where did you get these? I remember seeing the Sakura Wars game was from sales reports they said the series had sold x amount before the new entry, then a new report saying it had sold x amount after the new game.

Wonder about Refrain, whether or not it as seen as a failure, since it was basically a remaster. I just finished The House Of The Dead: Overkill on PS3 and read that SEGA was happy with 45k sold in it's debut month. Just always been serious about how SEGA might view different games through different lenses, obviously depending on budget.

Yeah probably that's the one, from what I remember Sega never gave direct numbers, only the total for Sakura franchise before and after the release of Shin Sakura Taisen.
Overkill HD on PS3 was a remaster too, probably that's why they were happy with just 45k.


I'd like to give an example about how much Nagoshi was biased and used double standards, for example Yakuza Like a Dragon and Shin Sakura Taisen, an annual series VS a dormant franchise, both launched around the same time in Japan with similar numbers, but different reaction:

-Yakuza Like a Dragon JP digital + physical sales - 300,000 copies (150.000 were physical) first month in Japan = (Nagoshi extremely happy)

-Shin Sakura Taisen JP - physical sales only 178,426 copies, first month, = (Nagoshi disappointed, game could do better)

Toshihiro Nagoshi on Yakuza: Like a Dragon, Project Sakura Wars Sales

Toshihiro Nagoshi announces Yakuza: Like a Dragon sold over 300,000 copies, comments on the game and Project Sakura Wars sales, lack of full voice acting.

www.dualshockers.com

it was the same for Shenmue HD VS Yakuza Remastered, where Nagoshi was all excited for its own Yakuza HD results, while Shenmue HD that sold even better, he was like "yeah ok, it sold a little more than expected, good, I guess", lol seriously?

 

[24Nathan]

Shenmue was a victim of circumstance. The Dreamcast's death and the effect it had on Shenmue II and therefore Shenmue III, development hell with Shenmue Online, SEGA - Sammy very likely killing Shenmue III and more on the original Xbox, even up until now with the mediocre handling of Shenmue III by Deep Silver, and now with the fight to get a season 2 of Shenmue The Animation, having to wade through the sale of Crunchyroll as well as the merger of Discovery and Warner Media, who owns Cartoon Network and Adult Swim/Toonami.

In my eyes, it is stupid to look at Shenmue through the lens of 2001 from a business perspective, but what do I know? Maybe SEGA is weighing getting involved, maybe they were waiting to see how Shenmue III did before potentially backing Shenmue IV. We will likely never know.

I agree that the SEGA we have today is not the SEGA we had during the hardware days. Though I will take the SEGA that has given us the portfolio it has put out this gen, compared to the early 360/PS3/Wii days, where we had gems like Golden Axe: Beast RIder, Iron Man, and Daisy Fuentes Pilates. We've gotten Shenmue I & II, Shenmue The Animation, and Shenmue III, Rez Infinite, Streets Of Rage 4, Panzer Dragoon: Remake, and The House Of The Dead: Remake, and Space Channel 5 VR: Kinda Funky News Flash. Now, outside of the rereleases and the anime, the rest have only had a supervisory role/creative input from SEGA, but they are still SEGA games. We also had Valkyria Chronicles 4, multiple Yakuza/Sonic games, including Sonic Mania, Super Monkey Ball games, a new Sakura Wars, new mini hardware (Astro City, Mega Drive/Genesis, and Game Gear), compilations like Mega Drive/Genesis Classics, SEGA AGES games, The House Of The Dead: Scarlet Dawn, Puyo Puyo entries, Phantasy Star Online 2: New Genesis, Virtua Fighter 5: Ultimate Showdown, ChuChu Rocket! Universe, and of course entries in the Total War, Football Manager, and Hatsune Miku franchises, which all do fairly well sales wise, obviously.

All fo that is a HUGE step forward compared to before the PS4/Xbox One/Switch generation. I'd argue that SEGA have been putting out their best content since the Dreamcast/immediate post Dreamcast days (ports and releases of cancelled Dreamcast games to Xbox/GameCube/PS2 like Shenmue II, Panzer Dragoon Orta, etc.).

 

[Suzaku]

Yakuza got that chance. Shenmue didn't.

If Sega had backed Shenmue the way they have Yakuza, I'm optimistic we'd have seen the franchise become bigger than it is.

That's the point, Shenmue never had the same luxury.
Imagine if Shenmue was an annual series with more than 13 games released for 15-20 years...sooner or later it would find global success too.

Instead we had only 3 chance and only 1 real fair chance with Shenmue 1, that in fact was a million seller and one of the best selling game on the console.
The second game had to endure the end of Dreamcast, the third game had to endure the internet haters and the Kickstarter compromises.

 

[24Nathan]

Yeah probably that's the one, from what I remember Sega never gave direct numbers, only the total for Sakura franchise before and after the release of Shin Sakura Taisen.
Overkill HD on PS3 was a remaster too, probably that's why they were happy with just 45k.


I'd like to give an example about how much Nagoshi was biased and used double standards, for example Yakuza Like a Dragon and Shin Sakura Taisen, an annual series VS a dormant franchise, both launched around the same time in Japan with similar numbers, but different reaction:

-Yakuza Like a Dragon JP digital + physical sales - 300,000 copies (150.000 were physical) first month in Japan = (Nagoshi extremely happy)

-Shin Sakura Taisen JP - physical sales only 178,426 copies, first month, = (Nagoshi disappointed, game could do better)

Toshihiro Nagoshi on Yakuza: Like a Dragon, Project Sakura Wars Sales

Toshihiro Nagoshi announces Yakuza: Like a Dragon sold over 300,000 copies, comments on the game and Project Sakura Wars sales, lack of full voice acting.

www.dualshockers.com

it was the same for Shenmue HD VS Yakuza Remastered, where Nagoshi was all excited for its own Yakuza HD results, while Shenmue HD that sold even better, he was like "yeah ok, it sold a little more than expected, good, I guess", lol seriously?

Interesting, thank you. Has he ever directly mentioned Shenmue I & II directly?

 

[Seaman]

gems like Golden Axe: Beast RIder, Iron Man, and Daisy Fuentes Pilates. Shenmue I & II, Shenmue The Animation, and Shenmue III, Rez Infinite, Streets Of Rage 4, Panzer Dragoon: Remake, and The House Of The Dead: Remake, and Space Channel 5 VR: Kinda Funky News Flash. Now, outside of the rereleases and the anime, the rest have only had a supervisory role/creative input from SEGA, but they are still SEGA games. We also had Valkyria Chronicles 4, multiple Yakuza/Sonic games, including Sonic Mania, Super Monkey Ball games, a new Sakura Wars, new mini hardware (Astro City, Mega Drive/Genesis, and Game Gear), compilations like Mega Drive/Genesis Classics, SEGA AGES games, The House Of The Dead: Scarlet Dawn, Puyo Puyo entries, Phantasy Star Online 2: New Genesis, Virtua Fighter 5: Ultimate Showdown, ChuChu Rocket! Universe, and of course entries in the Total War, Football Manager, and Hatsune Miku franchises, which all do fairly well sales wise, obviously.

Finally I've seen it all. You killed me XD

 

[Suzaku]

Interesting, thank you. Has he ever directly mentioned Shenmue I & II directly?

I think he mentioned it in one of the Sega Nama streaming.