Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[Down by Law]

Anyone who plays the game is entitled to express their opinions on it. If someone plays for 4 hours and decides it's not for them, they can talk about it. No one is more deserving or entitled to talk about a video game over someone else. It's video games.

Yeah? No one is refuting that point. You can't put forward the opinion that the game is too long if you haven't beaten it yet, the same way I can't argue a TV series should be 10 episodes instead of 12 when I'm only on episode 5.

I'm going to stop there, because your goal posts are so wide now I could drive a fucking tank through them.

It's sad to see Thomasina having to defend himself so much just for having an opinion which in this case is a fact(to him) because that's what an opinion is. It's something someone believes is true.

Shenmue 3 is a bad game. It's not just a bad game by modern gaming standards, but it's a bad game by Shenmue standards.

You come out with crap like that and people are going to challenge you. Don't like it? Then don't post such reductive, inflammatory bullshit then.

 

[danielmann861]

I'm still playing the game, btw. I haven't finished it yet. I'm in Niaowu right now, chasing the thugs again. Asking where all the thugs are. It's like the storyline of "Do you know where I can find any sailors" has been stretched out to fill out almost the entirety of Shenmue 3 when in S1 and S2, that was just a small portion of those games.

Isn’t that what Shenmue always has been? Always talking to people and hunting down clues to get you to the next story beat? I felt the design of Shenmue III was the least of its issues. The design of Shenmue III was Shenmue through and through. It was the character development and story that needed the most work.

 

[GhostTrick]

I dont think Thomasina has to defend himself for disliking the game but more like because most of his posts are either passive agressive or completly agressive. Not against the game, mind you, but against the people who like it.

I wasn't fond of the game either. But I wont call people liking it "blind". They can have their reasons to like it. I can disagree with those reasons or explain why I think those are wrong. But saying people are pretending to like something is really far fetched.

 

[GhostTrick]

Isn’t that what Shenmue always has been? Always talking to people and hunting down clues to get you to the next story beat? I felt the design of Shenmue III was the least of its issues. The design of Shenmue III was Shenmue through and through. It was the character development and story that needed the most work.

Yes and no. The problem is that Shenmue III adopt a simple structure: Chase two thugs, beat them, find their boss, fight him, lose the first time, fight him again, win. And it repeats it in both areas.

Both Shenmue I and II also had a similiar structure (aka thug chasing) BUT not as a main plot structure and never repeated it the same way.

In both Shenmue I and II, not only it was never the main structure but it also always had variations in set pieces, in gameplay and in narration. And in both Shenmue I and II each area had their own structure.
In II, you didn't repeat Wan Chai stuff in Kowloon. In I, you didn't repeat Dobuita stuff in the Harbor.

The design of 3 is one big issue because not only in a gameplay perspective, it drags the interest of the game down by a huge lack of variety. And in term of narration, it gives a filler feel to the whole thing.

 

[Sh3ppy]

If China requires a special system, then make a special system for China. Tencent is invested in Epic. Epic could have paid for that.

Lol, that’s crazy talk.

 

[code l name]

Isn’t that what Shenmue always has been? Always talking to people and hunting down clues to get you to the next story beat? I felt the design of Shenmue III was the least of its issues. The design of Shenmue III was Shenmue through and through. It was the character development and story that needed the most work.

I think his point, and something I concede was chasing and finding the thugs was predominant objective in Bailu and then essentially repeated for large stretches of Niaowu.

As mentioned in post above mine, it’s not only the repetition but the fact there’s little gameplay variety around this that makes it stick out like more of a sore thumb.

 

[Sh3ppy]

it's now a place where people are basically attacked or looked down on for not blindly loving this game.

I’m sorry but this is utter drivel and patently not true. There are umpteen posters who dislike many aspects of the game and are able to discuss in a balanced manner. It’s about how one puts their point across that makes the difference.

And this game has more user scores than it's actually sold.

And you know how many games have sold how exactly?

Will we get a 4th? Slim right now

Same question as above.

 

[Mittens2317]

I still haven't played Shenmue III yet, and was gonna make the same general points that a lot of you have made. He doesn't play games, it's kind of a good thing, it's more that he's out of touch with modern day practices than anything because everything's become standardised, etc.

I was even gonna make a joke about him not being daft enough to have the pause menu assigned to the left trigger or summat, and that's why you have a development team around you. Then I read that the inventory menu is indeed assigned to an odd input.

I really have no idea what to expect from this game, but hey, at least I know it can't be worse than Deadly Premonition, right?

...right?

 

[GhostTrick]

I still haven't played Shenmue III yet, and was gonna make the same general points that a lot of you have made. He doesn't play games, it's kind of a good thing, it's more that he's out of touch with modern day practices than anything because everything's become standardised, etc.

I was even gonna make a joke about him not being daft enough to have the pause menu assigned to the left trigger or summat, and that's why you have a development team around you. Then I read that the inventory menu is indeed assigned to an odd input.

I really have no idea what to expect from this game, but hey, at least I know it can't be worse than Deadly Premonition, right?

...right?

In term of polish and visuals, it's better. As for the rest... At least DP has a plot and characters.

 

[Peter]

As someone who's been a member of this site since near enough the very beginning and someone who still reads the forums weekly it's sd to see it's now a place where people are basically attacked or looked down on for not blindly loving this game. We used to be able to have real open discussions on good and bad. No one was told to "log out and calm down".

Oh really? Why, what's your original username on the forums?

 

[Mittens2317]

DP has a plot

Of land?

 

[The Wolf King]

Oh really? Why, what's your original username on the forums?

Very original fourms - thebestbit
Then - WhoReallyCares?

 

[The Wolf King]

I’m sorry but this is utter drivel and patently not true. There are umpteen posters who dislike many aspects of the game and are able to discuss in a balanced manner. It’s about how one puts their point across that makes the difference.





And you know how many games have sold how exactly?




Same question as above.

Deep Silver’s revenue estimates to be adjusted downward by almost $8 million due to poor Shenmue III sales... tells you all you need to know.
It dropped out the UK chart after 1 week and only entered at 17th.

DBZ was no.1 only selling 7000 copies. So if that was the top selling not even charting in 40 is double figures if it's lucky

 

[Kyo_JP]

Deep Silver’s revenue estimates to be adjusted downward by almost $8 million due to poor Shenmue III sales... tells you all you need to know.

So here we go again with the external report thing instead of the Embracer Group shareholder meeting telling that it did financially OK...

 

[spud1897]

Deep Silver’s revenue estimates to be adjusted downward by almost $8 million due to poor Shenmue III sales... tells you all you need to know.
It dropped out the UK chart after 1 week and only entered at 17th.

DBZ was no.1 only selling 7000 copies. So if that was the top selling not even charting in 40 is double figures if it's lucky

Based upon a report that used Gamestat for its figures and was then debunked by the actual financial report that said it met expectations.

Reports and presentations - Embracer Group

embracer.com

2nd listing down and the video is there of the presentation.

Yes number one in a traditionally dry month for video games. Mid Jan, no one is buying anything.

Not disputing it dropped out of the UK charts after a week. It did evidence shows that. But evidence also shows that the financial projections report was a load of rubbish.

 

[Ruffles]

You talk about him being out of touch and various elements not working anymore but fail to elaborate on what these elements are. What elements of S3 don’t work and how could they be improved? Do these elements not work because they fail to adhere to modern standards or are they just poorly written/implemented?

1) The system for investigating objects, for instance. That was cool in the first game where it felt like you had a entire world to explore, you could open every cupboard etc which was unhear of at the time. To keep that in the new game was a weird decision.

2) The incredibly stiff dialogue is something they could have worked on more. I didn't minde the voices per se so much, but it rarely felt like humans talking to each other.

3) The map was atrocious in S2 and was not any better in S3.

4) What made me annoyed with the game, especially in Niaowu, was the tedious grinding after money. But I guess that's just Shenmue and I have to deal with it, lol.

 

[WuyingRen]

Deep Silver’s revenue estimates to be adjusted downward by almost $8 million due to poor Shenmue III sales... tells you all you need to know.
It dropped out the UK chart after 1 week and only entered at 17th.

DBZ was no.1 only selling 7000 copies. So if that was the top selling not even charting in 40 is double figures if it's lucky

This is wildly inaccurate.

The revenue estimates were adjusted by an external partner with no access to sales figures nor no indication of DS’s expectations. Their quarterly report directly contradicted this.

Estimates for UK sales place it at around 5,000 copies in its first week. This does not include KS backer copies which obviously had an effect on sales.

 

[Peter]

Very original fourms - thebestbit
Then - WhoReallyCares?

Yep, 100% remember you.

Which makes the comment about the "old" forums even more baffling. Unless you fall under the category certain other older members who just hate anyone who's in charge around here, regardless of who it is, what their background is, or what support was given when said person originally took over. The good old down with the establishment mentality.

Or it could also just be the case where these older members just visit here once a year, cant handle that times change, then moan about how they wish this place was 2009 again, where there was nothing to talk about football, internet memes and sex jokes. But feel they are to be treated like royalty because they joined the Dojo in 1932. Doesn't work like that. Join date, post count and any other number has, and always will be, exactly that. Just a number. It's been post quality that has always been what's worth a damn around here, and this place is now a Shenmue fan forum, due to the attitude and quality of people that post here.

Cas in point, this Thomasina user.

A lot of bullshit responses in this topic. A lot of people are lying to themselves out of their irrational dedication and fanaticism to Suzuki and Shenmue.

Shenmue 3 is a bad game. It's not just a bad game by modern gaming standards, but it's a bad game by Shenmue standards.

How can you read that sentence and not agree it's objectively bad?
There were a lot of bad decisions made.

It's flat out tedious and repetitive, and only tolerable if you're a Shenmue fan.
Your video is what lead me to the belief that Shenmue 3 will divide fans of Shenmue from irrational fanboys of Shenmue.
I think the team needed someone leading making good decisions.
Ys Net needed focus on what made Shenmue enjoyable, not more time.

This is all very bizarre design that leads to a lesser gaming experience.
When you avoid engaging the game's tasks and systems because you are reprimanded by having to do more grinding, that is bad game design.

I can't respect that.

Come on, that's bogus and you know it.
Anyone implementing restrictions like that is just making bad game design decisions. Punishing the player for moving at their own pace is pure arrogance.
The excessive padding and faux longevity is not good game design. It's just filler to extend the length of the game.

Shenmue 3 implemented a stamina system to force you to take your time.... bad game design, plain and simple.
Bad game design slows you down with unnecessary and intrusive systems., like needing to get $2000 for a bottle of wine early on in the game, when maintaining money was difficult because I was consuming so much garlic. That's bad game design.

It. Is. Excessive.
I can tell the difference between Shenmue fans and Shenmue fanboys easily.

There's another 6 pages worth of material, but I feel I've made my point. Everyone has an opinion, good or bad, but absolutely ramming their opinion down someone's throat with no intentions of balanced discussion on a fan forum for a particular subject isn't what's going to fly. As highlighted multiple times by the staff and me. Of course the user is not going to see anything wrong with their comments or posting style because, well that's what happens when you have the blinkers on. They are right, and everyone else is wrong, including Yu Suzuki himself. 40 year and a fill CV behind him, but meh, some nobody on an internet forum knows the truth about his unprofessionalism.

Anyways, like I said last night, this issue with this particular user is now at the very end of its tether. Any further continuation to batter this topic to death with the one opinion over and over again will be met with a warning and a weeks ban. After that, a second warning and a months ban. No more verbals or reminders of the FAQ.

It's abundantly clear that they have no intention of speaking to anyone from a stand point of acceptance. They are just concerned with their own opinion and agenda, and fuck anyone else's opinion that goes against theirs. The arrogance has been intolerable at best, going as far as to question the professionalism of Yu Suzuki. I'd love to know this users experience as a professional within the gaming industry. I asked them earlier and of course, didn't get a response.
Everyone has their opinion, but to completely ram one opinion down everyone's throat is exactly what is in the FAQ of the site. Arguing in bad faith. Respect is called for at all times, yet this person even has said they cant "respect" another's opinion.

Which has brought us to here. The user has had multiple polite requests to amend the posting attitude from multiple staff members. No warnings have ben given, nor bans been handed out. We are now at the end of that road, and any continuation to hammer someone with an opinion they don't agree with, will be given a warning and a weeks ban. After that, another working and a months ban if things continue.

 

[Ruffles]

I'd say his new team is still kinda of fresh off the boat when it come's to Yu's game design and Shenmue's ambitious scope. Now with more than 3 years of experience under their belt, assets to improved, & familiarity with Yu's rhythm...I trust that S4 will redeem S3. Bar any tragic outcomes/circumstances ofc.

On the other hand...Sega can redeem themselves and let Yu work with Am2 again. Give him access to a strong AAA backing and watch him spin another influential entry for this next decade.

That will never happen, though. No Shenmue game has done well commercially (the first one was OK, I guess) and Sega will have no interest in working with someone who's made a name for himself of not keeping within the budget limits... To me, it feels like the team ran out of both time and money for S3. They wanted to do more but ended up cutting an entire area and creating a rushed ending that made very little sense at all. Spending a lot of energy on fan service is nice and all, but considering the budget for the game it was weird to make a Save Shenmue hall, for instance.

My concern for S4, if it is ever developed, is that the budget will be even more limited which the game will likely suffer from. Having said that, a good story doesn't need hundreds of millions of dollars. The way the story was handled in S3 is my biggest complaint.

 

[WuyingRen]

That will never happen, though. No Shenmue game has done well commercially (the first one was OK, I guess) and Sega will have no interest in working with someone who's made a name for himself of not keeping within the budget limits... To me, it feels like the team ran out of both time and money for S3. They wanted to do more but ended up cutting an entire area and creating a rushed ending that made very little sense at all. Spending a lot of energy on fan service is nice and all, but considering the budget for the game it was weird to make a Save Shenmue hall, for instance.

My concern for S4, if it is ever developed, is that the budget will be even more limited which the game will likely suffer from. Having said that, a good story doesn't need hundreds of millions of dollars. The way the story was handled in S3 is my biggest complaint.

I don’t think the ending can be described as rushed. We saw trailers showcasing scenes from the end of the game 1 year+ before release and scripting was finalized about a year in advance as well. It’s possible that they dialed back their original plans because they were worried about time, but one year is plenty of time to knock together an ending. The yakuza team (granted they have more people) seem able to pump out an entire game in that time.

I also think that both the original games did well commercially giving the low install base of the Dreamcast and the HD remasters did well given their age and the poor job that was done of porting them.