Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

I agree that it was necessary to point it out, but it would've been nice if there was more to it than that, especially considering that we hear it from Shenhua's father of all people and not, say, Yuanda Zhu or Grandmaster Feng. I'm legitimately concerned about the reveal that they were actually good friends because technically, that's never been stated. I could easily see someone who knew them both giving a spiel about how "Sunming and Iwao trained together until Zhao died. No I don't know how but I don't believe your father was capable of murdering Zhao because Iwao and Sunming Zhao were great friends. Also Zhao's son is Lan Di." And Ryo acting like that's earth-shattering news.
It actually is Grandmaster Feng that first tells Ryo that the photo is of Iwao and Zhao Sunming when they were young.



I feel like the complaints about Ryo relearning information in this game are overblown. He doesn't really act that surprised when he hears that Zhao's son is Lan Di in my opinion. And the other characters weren't there for Ryo's conversation with Zhu so they don't know how much Ryo knows.

I knew it wasn't optional (since it's in the inventory in S2) but I didn't know that Fuku-san gave it to you at the end. Cool.
Yeah, it's pretty cool. If you never pick it up yourself, there is a cutscene at the end of the game in which Fuku-san enters Ryo's room and gives it to him. Ryo asks him where he found it, and he says in the basement of the dojo.
 
It actually is Grandmaster Feng that first tells Ryo that the photo is of Iwao and Zhao Sunming when they were young.
Right, I forgot about that. I just remembered the ending.

I feel like the complaints about Ryo relearning information in this game are overblown. He doesn't really act that surprised when he hears that Zhao's son is Lan Di in my opinion. And the other characters weren't there for Ryo's conversation with Zhu so they don't know how much Ryo knows.
Yes, it's blown out of proportion because it's fun to make fun of, similar to how the dialogue in the Star Wars prequels is blown out of proportion when Star Wars has never had great dialogue. I think there's also a big cultural difference with the way Japanese characters are written (MGS is famous for repeating info and Snake being shocked that a nuclear facility has a surveillance camera comes to mind). I'm sure it would be forgiven if the story was better.

Yeah, it's pretty cool. If you never pick it up yourself, there is a cutscene at the end of the game in which Fuku-san enters Ryo's room and gives it to him. Ryo asks him where he found it, and he says in the basement of the dojo.
Makes sense, because Ryo just leaves it open lol.
 
Its a glorious feeling when the opportunity arises to throw in a .gif that's completely in context. 👌
Well it was a genuine question and I do feel a bit of an asshole for saying it, not knowing the details going into game development and this development in particular but I dunno I just feel some of the things in Shenmue III could've been easily improved on despite budget. Yu Suzuki is a legend, but unless there were some behind the scenes, shenmue 4 reasons, shenmue 3's structure/story is quite shocking for someone of Suzuki's level to produce imo. I was surprised he did the story like this.
 
If we ignore the realities of game developpement and directing. Maybe. But what's the point ? Could I make a Shenmue III that pleased me more ? Maybe. But where's the surprise ? Where's the discovery ? What's the point for a fan to already know it ? It's basically the same difference when someone cook for you and when you cook for yourself. It doesn't taste the same. Well this can be said for any creation. If I just wanted to make my own headcannon, I'd just write a fan fiction and wank about myself making my perfect head cannon. But no one can be satisfied with their own conclusions and what people want is the story that was planned. Was I disappointed by Shenmue III ? Yes. Would've I wanted it from someone else ? Hell no. Nothing can always be perfect and disappointement is also part of what you can enjoy.
Thing is tho the game is missing basic things. I'm not even saying I want the game I want, I feel like you could make it or Peter could make it and it have certain things that Yu Suzuki missed. Not fan fiction, I'm not even talking about the story itself, more the execution of the story. If we not supposed to meet, zimming or any of the chuyoumen yet that's fine, if we not supposed to find out much about iwao that's fine but then give me some other meat to replace my expectations. I'm not asking for Shenmue 3 to fulfill my story expectations, that wasn't even the biggest reason I wanted shenmue 3. I just wanted to be taken on an emotional journey with great visuals, music but most of all gameplay + story immersion. Like how cutscenes can mix with fighting, Ren and Ryo in yellow head building, Ren and Ryo walking to yang shop and him telling you to shut up and stop asking him stuff. Listening to an hour of tapes. Being sent to find legendary masters or hyping and learning devistating moves that you later use in combat (counter elbow assault) instead body check being qte only move.
Hell just some basic consistency, shenhua's clothes, Ryo's jacket tone, his trainers, shenhua's house being how they were in shenmue II wouldve been nice. If Yu wanted to change her clothes so bad, she couldve changed right after they got back from the cave into her new look.

The animations, graphics, gameplay loop, mini games are all great, and the the fact it has minimal bugs and glitches are incredible. But the structure of the story is so bad that given the world Yu has built, if he had like a fan who had to work along side yu but had to tell the same story Yu told in 3, that fan would've added more fights, more build up to Mr muscles, maybe even a fight with Niao Sun, made the red snakes actually more threatening, by having them chase you around niao, msybe have a few red snake bosses. You don't need the expected lore to make shenmue 3 more interesting, you can take what Yu gave us and just expand on that, and that would be enough.

Also bring back the drinking animation...
 
I think what was really needed was an experienced producer to tell him what could he be able to do and what wouldn't.
Also seems like they didn't even ended up the preproduction stage well after the KS ended (and with the game already in production), I think I saw in some slides that one of the last things he does is the game design document, that's crazy, call it agile development but sometimes a good preproduction can iron thousands of little details after.

Better story/writing would definitely have mostly won me over but again, I just don't see Shenmue as having a "formula". Grinding for money and levels just isn't my idea of fun, and not something I ever played Shenmue for. I also don't need Suzuki to be slavish to 20 year old game design, it's ok for the dialogue system to be normal, for instance.
For me part of the charm (and amazingness) of Shenmue is that at every stage of the story you could ask almost anyone about your current objective (and in idle time use it to develop characters / lore). Makes NPCs (even minor) seem relevant and alive (thus making the whole world more realistic).
I don't see how dialogue trees would tackle that (unless it means exponentially more dialogues for each state of the game).
 
That's arguable. I don't see anything in Shenmue III that support this. I also think it's really weird that "Suzuki is doing no wrong, it's the team's fault". When everything goes well "Suzuki is the best !" when something goes wrong "The team is responsible !"
And while I agree that it's obvious that some shortcomings are due to the fact that it was a new engine for them and such... There are other shortcomings that falls on the director.

We can't, on one hand, claim that "the man is a perfectionnist, the good things comes from him" and then wave criticism by going all "but this specific thing... not his fault ! they failed his vision !"

At some point, the man is a director on his game. I blame him for giving the "OK" on the narrative structure, the story shortcomings, the design (not character design) decisions, the character developpement and such.

So while I don't think that we're talking about someone "out of touch"... let's not pretend that Shenmue III is the work of a genius that is "creatively untouchable".

I think you've missed my point. Suzuki is creatively untouchable as in every game he makes has unique and ambitious scope but without a good team+time/resources that can properly realize it the project can still end up gimped ala s3. Remember some of the interviews of ideas Yu Suzuki wanted for s3? Like sound based Qte's? Graphics you can smell? Implementing some food science mechanics into the training system? Things I've never heard from AAA modern studios with more than enuf means do any experimenting on. But whatever he can't accomplish in one entry hopefully the circumstances will be favorable enuf for him after s3 had lay some foundations to be fully realized in the next installments.
 
I think you've missed my point. Suzuki is creatively untouchable as in every game he makes has unique and ambitious scope but without a good team+time/resources that can properly realize it the project can still end up gimped ala s3. Remember some of the interviews of ideas Yu Suzuki wanted for s3? Like sound based Qte's? Graphics you can smell? Implementing some food science mechanics into the training system? Things I've never heard from AAA modern studios with more than enuf means do any experimenting on. But whatever he can't accomplish in one entry hopefully the circumstances will be favorable enuf for him after s3 had lay some foundations to be fully realized in the next installments.
Yu was undoubtedly a pioneer in the video game industry back in the 80’s and 90’s and his innovation and creativity helped shape the gaming landscape during this time. Whilst it’s certainly possible that he is still somebody who is creatively untouchable, it’s also possible that the gaming industry has caught up with or even surpassed the scope of his vision. If this weren’t the case, this thread wouldn’t exist. The last blockbuster game that he released came nearly two decades ago and since then all we’ve seen are some mobile games and Shenmue 3, none of which demonstrated the qualities you describe in your post.

Part of being a good creator is being able to work within the limitations imposed upon you and that’s something that I think Yu needs to adapt to. He no longer has a team of hundreds and a limitless budget and can no longer afford to indulge his every whim. Having ideas is easy, it’s bringing them to fruition that many find difficult and I think the team struggled to fully realize the majority of Yu’s ideas for Shenmue 3 to the point where none of them felt like innovation.

Barring some miracle, the financial limitations that the team faced throughout the production of Shenmue 3 aren’t going to go away and to this end, I worry that if we do see a fourth game, we will once again be presented with a lot of half-baked ideas that fail to deliver on their full potential.

The agile production method allowed the first two Shenmue games to raise the bar in many areas, but I worry that with a smaller team and limited budget, the lack of a clear plan from the outset will once again lead to a substandard Shenmue experience. Let’s hope that this old dog can learn a few new tricks!
 
Thing is tho the game is missing basic things. I'm not even saying I want the game I want, I feel like you could make it or Peter could make it and it have certain things that Yu Suzuki missed. Not fan fiction, I'm not even talking about the story itself, more the execution of the story. If we not supposed to meet, zimming or any of the chuyoumen yet that's fine, if we not supposed to find out much about iwao that's fine but then give me some other meat to replace my expectations. I'm not asking for Shenmue 3 to fulfill my story expectations, that wasn't even the biggest reason I wanted shenmue 3. I just wanted to be taken on an emotional journey with great visuals, music but most of all gameplay + story immersion. Like how cutscenes can mix with fighting, Ren and Ryo in yellow head building, Ren and Ryo walking to yang shop and him telling you to shut up and stop asking him stuff. Listening to an hour of tapes. Being sent to find legendary masters or hyping and learning devistating moves that you later use in combat (counter elbow assault) instead body check being qte only move.
Hell just some basic consistency, shenhua's clothes, Ryo's jacket tone, his trainers, shenhua's house being how they were in shenmue II wouldve been nice. If Yu wanted to change her clothes so bad, she couldve changed right after they got back from the cave into her new look.

The animations, graphics, gameplay loop, mini games are all great, and the the fact it has minimal bugs and glitches are incredible. But the structure of the story is so bad that given the world Yu has built, if he had like a fan who had to work along side yu but had to tell the same story Yu told in 3, that fan would've added more fights, more build up to Mr muscles, maybe even a fight with Niao Sun, made the red snakes actually more threatening, by having them chase you around niao, msybe have a few red snake bosses. You don't need the expected lore to make shenmue 3 more interesting, you can take what Yu gave us and just expand on that, and that would be enough.

Also bring back the drinking animation...
And some of the problems are probably related to exactly this.

My impression on Shenmue 3 is that Yu wanted a lot more and the project had a bigger scope that was achievable for the team, and when Deep Silver had to do the calls of this is taking to long finish the game or we are closing the project in XX months they needed to wrap the story at all costs as, again my opinion, they focused first in systems and not having the game playable to end to end first. This is also explains why they scrapped baisha.

Obviously, this is just my current beliefs of why the story is like it is and not as developed as it couls have been.
 
I think you've missed my point. Suzuki is creatively untouchable as in every game he makes has unique and ambitious scope but without a good team+time/resources that can properly realize it the project can still end up gimped ala s3. Remember some of the interviews of ideas Yu Suzuki wanted for s3? Like sound based Qte's? Graphics you can smell? Implementing some food science mechanics into the training system? Things I've never heard from AAA modern studios with more than enuf means do any experimenting on. But whatever he can't accomplish in one entry hopefully the circumstances will be favorable enuf for him after s3 had lay some foundations to be fully realized in the next installments.
Not to mention that S3 wasn't even a game where Yu was trying to stretch his legs creatively, but the exact opposite. He was being very careful/conservative and trying to focus on recapturing the feel of the series after being away from it (and non-mobile gaming in general) for roughly 5 billion years. And I think he succeeded absurdly well. @spud1897 wasn't there even a quote about some Kickstarter guy convincing him to go from 70/30 new/old split to 50/50?
 
I think you've missed my point. Suzuki is creatively untouchable as in every game he makes has unique and ambitious scope but without a good team+time/resources that can properly realize it the project can still end up gimped ala s3. Remember some of the interviews of ideas Yu Suzuki wanted for s3? Like sound based Qte's? Graphics you can smell? Implementing some food science mechanics into the training system? Things I've never heard from AAA modern studios with more than enuf means do any experimenting on. But whatever he can't accomplish in one entry hopefully the circumstances will be favorable enuf for him after s3 had lay some foundations to be fully realized in the next installments.



Throwing random ideas isn't genius creativity. "Graphics you can smell" eh.
And yes, you dont hear that from AAA studios because you rarely have interviews about their developpement process and such. And most of all, it's all about working mechanics. Sound based QTE is honestly a shitty idea for those who have hearing issues. On top of that it is one more difficult to implement because of the wide difference in sound system people own and their respective latency. On top of that, sound travel is slower than light to reach. Try any reaction tests, those are usually about press a key when the green turns light and there's a sound with it. You'll see how faster you are based on sight rather than hearing.

To be back on topic, there are a lot of people throwing that kind of "creative" ideas and scrapping them for good reasons. This isn't a sign of being "untouchable creativity" though.

If anything, if I were to base my judgement on the way the battle system of Shenmue III... I could call that creativity bankrupt considering how badly designed it is.
 
Not to mention that S3 wasn't even a game where Yu was trying to stretch his legs creatively, but the exact opposite. He was being very careful/conservative and trying to focus on recapturing the feel of the series after being away from it (and non-mobile gaming in general) for roughly 5 billion years. And I think he succeeded absurdly well. @spud1897 wasn't there even a quote about some Kickstarter guy convincing him to go from 70/30 new/old split to 50/50?
There was. Ryan Paynton told Yu to go less with the newer stuff. I'll have to dig around for the article
 
I don't see how dialogue trees would tackle that (unless it means exponentially more dialogues for each state of the game).
It doesn't have to be dialogue trees but Shenmue has a very weird way of handling dialogue that makes it slow/clunky, such as having the dialogue stop for no reason so that you have to press the A button to keep it going or the fact that interacting with a character always has this awkward pause as they "wake up". There's no reason for it, it makes the dialogue feel stilted, underscores the poor voice acting, and makes everybody feel like a robot which has the opposite effect of what you're talking about. Also, trying to make every character react to Ryo's current objective is foolhardy: the vast majority of them say nothing useful and on a tight budget it leads to the completely nonsensical dialogue exchanges present in S3. Games have been doing this kind of thing better/more naturally since before the original Shenmue and, in a world where the Witcher 3 exists, it comes across as inept.

I would adopt a system where only a handful of NPCs can actually be interacted with (you can't stop people walking or talk to people in big groups etc. for instance), others would passively say things to Ryo as he walks by, and you could select Ryo's current objective from the notebook, that way you could go back and ask people about things you missed (something that's always bugged me about the series). I would also ax the cinematic camera angles during minor conversations; keep that for important info (this would cut down on animation costs and not interrupt the flow so much). And, if costs further needed to be kept down, only those important NPC convos/cutscenes would feature voice acting. In a world where Shenmue is operating on a tight budget, these are the kinds of concessions that need to be made.

The dialogue system in the Witcher 3, for instance, is incredibly robust and is a core feature of the game (making choices and dealing with the consequences), so it justifies spending the money/time on full voice acting, full facial rigs and animation for NPCs, and cinematic camera angles (and it had an $80M budget) and it still implements some of the cost cutting ideas I presented. Dialogue in Shenmue is a comparatively less important part of the game.
 
There was. Ryan Paynton told Yu to go less with the newer stuff. I'll have to dig around for the article
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