Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

Peter said:
Yep, 100% remember you.

Which makes the comment about the "old" forums even more baffling. Unless you fall under the category certain other older members who just hate anyone who's in charge around here, regardless of who it is, what their background is, or what support was given when said person originally took over. The good old down with the establishment mentality.

Or it could also just be the case where these older members just visit here once a year, cant handle that times change, then moan about how they wish this place was 2009 again, where there was nothing to talk about football, internet memes and sex jokes. But feel they are to be treated like royalty because they joined the Dojo in 1932. Doesn't work like that. Join date, post count and any other number has, and always will be, exactly that. Just a number. It's been post quality that has always been what's worth a damn around here, and this place is now a Shenmue fan forum, due to the attitude and quality of people that post here.

Cas in point, this Thomasina user.





It's abundantly clear that they have no intention of speaking to anyone from a stand point of acceptance. They are just concerned with their own opinion and agenda, and fuck anyone else's opinion that goes against theirs. The arrogance has been intolerable at best, going as far as to question the professionalism of Yu Suzuki. I'd love to know this users experience as a professional within the gaming industry. I asked them earlier and of course, didn't get a response.
Everyone has their opinion, but to completely ram one opinion down everyone's throat is exactly what is in the FAQ of the site. Arguing in bad faith. Respect is called for at all times, yet this person even has said they cant "respect" another's opinion.

Which has brought us to here. The user has had multiple polite requests to amend the posting attitude from multiple staff members. No warnings have ben given, nor bans been handed out. We are now at the end of that road, and any continuation to hammer someone with an opinion they don't agree with, will be given a warning and a weeks ban. After that, another working and a months ban if things continue.
Click to expand...


Hate no never cared who was a mod I've always posted my way.
Site was always able to talk about anything and things rarely got out of hand and was usually to do with 1 person.
That's actually a very defensive post from nothing really so maybe I've missed some dramas on here involving older posters.


But just remember this site would have been dead long before 3 got announced if not for those people.
 
He isn't out of touch.

If he was then Shenmue 3 wouldn't have
1.A giant map without any loading times when you go into another area.(Unlike Shenmue 1 and 2 that always loaded small rooms and added loading times when you entered new areas.)
2.A hide and seek mini game with children that was inspired from a Witcher 3 quest.
3.Stamina system.(That was copied from survival games)
4.A fishing mini game that was inspired from some Zelda type games.
5.Proper New game plus, Difficulty setting , patches and downloadable contents.
6.Ability to skip repetitive cutscenes.
7.Ability to customize Ryo's outfits which was inspired from other open world games.

Do you guys want him to add map markers to Shenmue and just tell the players to go to X ?

If you don't know lots of the games that he worked on were inspired from other games so he knows how to not stay out of touch.(Virtua Fighter was inspired from Street Fighter 2, Shenmue was inspired from some American RPG games such as Ultima , Virtua Cop was inspired from some 2D shoot'em up games , Virtua Fighter 4's side stepping was inspired from Tekken 3 etc)

Imo he did the best that was possible with his limited budget for Shenmue 3.

You guys aren't happy about the narrative ? Unfortunately making cutscenes is the most expensive part of making video games so he had to cut some of them in order to make the game ready for release in late 2019. I also appreciate this that he decided to focus on the gameplay and open world rather than focusing on making more cutscenes.
 
There are ways around cutscenes, though. Many games these days tell stories through static 2D character art & dialogue, or through notebooks and tapes left lying around. It's not an impossible situation to overcome. It just requires some thought and creativity.
 
mjqjazzbar said:
There are ways around cutscenes, though. Many games these days tell stories through static 2D character art & dialogue, or through notebooks and tapes left lying around. It's not an impossible situation to overcome. It just requires some thought.
Click to expand...

Would you have preferred the cutscenes use 2D characters? I'm not sure that'd fit the style of Shenmue at all to be honest.
That's more suitable for visual novels.
 
mjqjazzbar said:
There are ways around cutscenes, though. Many games these days tell stories through static 2D character art & dialogue, or through notebooks and tapes left lying around. It's not an impossible situation to overcome. It just requires some thought and creativity.
Click to expand...
LemonHaze said:
Would you have preferred the cutscenes use 2D characters? I'm not sure that'd fit the style of Shenmue at all to be honest.
That's more suitable for visual novels.
Click to expand...

I don't know if it would've been a satisfying solution. Making cutscenes with 2D CGs isn't easy either. Because it still require a great mastery in story telling to make it work. There are visual novels who are pretty amazing at that to the point you almost forget you're looking at 2D stills. On the opposite, despite having 3D models, Shenmue 3 feels really static when it comes to story telling. I don't think the issue comes from a lack of cutscenes. I think it's even worse actually, it's a lack of competence in story telling.
 
Whilst I love Shenmue III, I think Shenmue II has better storytelling.

But to be honest I don't know whether thats because it was a stark contrast to SI so the difference was more easy to see.
 
lavrentis said:
Whilst I love Shenmue III, I think Shenmue II has better storytelling.

But to be honest I don't know whether thats because it was a stark contrast to SI so the difference was more easy to see.
Click to expand...


It's more like because Shenmue II was better in every way when it comes to story telling. Same for Shenmue I. It had more things to say. More interesting things to say. And on top of that, it also has a better cutscene direction despite being 20 years older.
 
GhostTrick said:
It's more like because Shenmue II was better in every way when it comes to story telling. Same for Shenmue I. It had more things to say. More interesting things to say. And on top of that, it also has a better cutscene direction despite being 20 years older.
Click to expand...

Abit off topic, but I remember one of the opening cutscenes in Shenmue II, which showed the streets of HK with the neon lights and signs etc.

I was like wow, this gonna be good. I kind of felt that at the start of Niaowu, after Bailu but wasn't as strong.
 
LemonHaze said:
Would you have preferred the cutscenes use 2D characters? I'm not sure that'd fit the style of Shenmue at all to be honest.
That's more suitable for visual novels.
Click to expand...
Not saying I'd prefer it and I know some group of people out there would be appalled by the idea of 2D art or lines that aren't dubbed (as an example of cutting), but I think Suzuki could come up with something. I haven't given up on the idea that there is a way to tell the story even on a thin budget. I don't think lack of funds for a big cutscene budget is keeping Ys Net from telling a good story.
 
I think a lot of you are forgetting that this series was all designed 20+ years ago, so a lot of the core mechanics, gameplay and story elements are almost from another era in some ways, obviously a lot of this has been improved to meet newer standards. People are acting as though the story in Shenmue III is so off base for the series, which I fail to see.

You continue on from the ending of Shenmue II, and nothing is really retconned in a way which massively affects the story. Cutscenes are a pretty big chunk of a budget tbh, there's countless motion capture sessions needed, localization, camera work, post process effects and in general, animation work (besides characters).

Depending on the cutscene complexity, it can take quite a while to actually make all of this fit. I assume everyone here is forgetting the QTE in Niaowu?
 
Last edited:
mjqjazzbar said:
Not saying I'd prefer it and I know some group of people out there would be appalled by the idea of 2D art or lines that aren't dubbed (as an example of cutting), but I think Suzuki could come up with something. I haven't given up on the idea that there is a way to tell the story even on a thin budget. I don't think lack of funds for a big cutscene budget is keeping Ys Net from telling a good story.
Click to expand...

I mean, I'd give it a chance of course, I'm not totally against the idea, but I think that just isn't Suzuki's jam. He likes the idea of simulation a lot.
 
LemonHaze said:
I think a lot of you are forgetting that this series was all designed 20+ years ago, so a lot of the core mechanics, gameplay and story elements are almost from another area in some ways, obviously a lot of this has been improved to meet newer standards. People are acting as though the story in Shenmue III is so off base for the series, which I fail to see.

You continue on from the ending of Shenmue II, and nothing is really retconned in a way which massively affects the story. Cutscenes are a pretty big chunk of a budget tbh, there's countless motion capture sessions needed, localization, camera work, post process effects and in general, animation work (besides characters).

Depending on the cutscene complexity, it can take quite a while to actually make all of this fit. I assume everyone here is forgetting the QTE in Niaowu?
Click to expand...


The problem is when I and II are better in every ways in the story department, including the cutscene direction. What the story is saying isn't off-base in the big lines. The problem lies in how it is told, how it's structured and how it is portrayed.

I disagree when you say "nothing is really retconned in a way which massively affects the story". I'd say going from a floating magic sword to nothing is actually a big shift in tone.

Indeed, budget can explain shortcomings like the structure or the cutscene graphical fidelity. The problem is from the artistical side of it. Like the cutscene direction, the way cutscenes are shot but also the character cast. It's not about the age here. It's just about artistical decisions.
 
Here's an example of something I think is told poorly:

1. Li Feng. You see her randomly in town and Ryo acts like it's some huge surprise. She's just some lady that was on the boat
2. She re-appears near the end of Niaowu as an antagonist. I guess this is kind of interesting, but she hasn't been involved in the story in any meaningful way up to that point. Even Ryo's sort of just like huh?
3.
The big reveal she's Niao Sun!

I'm not sure more and better cutscenes would've made this more interesting, though they certainly could've helped. They simply didn't characterize Li Feng as an interesting or important character. She appears, disappears, then shows up at the end of the chapter. You have no substantial interactions with her and I think Niaowu is screaming for a few interesting scenarios, which never really develop. A lot of the game is treated this way. Things sort of just happen, many times out of nowhere. It never feels like YOU the player are making anything interesting happen. That's not at all how the first two games felt. Characters felt developed or at least important, and you enjoyed an interesting or relevant conversation or two with them. They felt like they mattered and you understood their place in the game. I don't think you need expensive cutscenes to solve this issue.
 
GhostTrick said:
Yes and no. The problem is that Shenmue III adopt a simple structure: Chase two thugs, beat them, find their boss, fight him, lose the first time, fight him again, win. And it repeats it in both areas.
Click to expand...
The worst thing is that the thugs are just uninteresting, I remember the first guy just saying "I'm just a regular thug".
They could have a lot of stuff to develop in Bailu, from Iwao's past and with Shenhua, but it never came to fruition.
But I think the proposition missed the target, a group of 3 guys are taking people hostage, in a place in the middle of nowhere, with a population of around 50 (with a bunch of martial artists), and then just hang out while Ryo is training...
Just making them kidnap Yuan while Ryo couldn't defend him would just be a somewhat memorable moment.
 
mjqjazzbar said:
Here's an example of something I think is told poorly:

1. Li Feng. You see her randomly in town and Ryo acts like it's some huge surprise. She's just some lady that was on the boat
2. She re-appears near the end of Niaowu as an antagonist. I guess this is kind of interesting, but she hasn't been involved in the story in any meaningful way up to that point. Even Ryo's sort of just like huh?
3.
The big reveal she's Niao Sun!

I'm not sure more and better cutscenes would've made this more interesting, though they certainly could've helped. They simply didn't characterize Li Feng as an interesting or important character. She appears, disappears, then shows up at the end of the chapter. You have no substantial interactions with her and I think Niaowu is screaming for a few interesting scenarios, which never really develop. A lot of the game is treated this way. Things sort of just happen, many times out of nowhere. It never feels like YOU the player are making anything interesting happen. That's not at all how the first two games felt. Characters felt developed or at least important, and you enjoyed an interesting or relevant conversation or two with them. They felt like they mattered and you understood their place in the game. I don't think you need expensive cutscenes to solve this issue.
Click to expand...


At no moment the game tries to make you care for that character. At no moment you feel betrayed because the character appears either outside like nothing nor is given any characterisation.

This is why that reveal sucks big time. If she was given a pseudo tragic backstory, trying to make you feel bad for her, as cliché as it can be, then you could care about it.

That's why the story in the game is bad. Not because it doesn't say a lot of the overall archstory, but because it just lack any substance. It keeps throwing random and forgettable characters. Li Feng/Niao Sun is a fucking huge missed opportunity. It could've been memorable af to make you like a character and feel betrayed after.

But hey at least, we got a forklift and Chobu Fighter ! :D

LemonHaze said:
What do you expect for there to be about this in Shenmue III, though? It doesn't make any sense.
Click to expand...

I didn't have expectations in the sense as them coming out and say "HEY IT'S MAGIC !" or "HEY IT'S ALL MAGNETS AND SUCH !". I didn't expect them to erase it and pretend it never happened. That's a big difference.
 
GhostTrick said:
Yes and no. The problem is that Shenmue III adopt a simple structure: Chase two thugs, beat them, find their boss, fight him, lose the first time, fight him again, win. And it repeats it in both areas.

Both Shenmue I and II also had a similiar structure (aka thug chasing) BUT not as a main plot structure and never repeated it the same way.
Click to expand...

Saying Shenmue I never had this similar structure is also at least a little bit disingenuous, considering you're looking for Sailors AND Thugs in it. It's pretty much the definition of Shenmue I's main plot structure, actually.
 
You could've done something silly like a mission where you fetch items for Li Feng from the shop. Anything. Just something that forces you to interact with her and create a memory that makes the reveal at the end of the chapter more important. That's what I'm getting at. They didn't do much with the actual set pieces and characters in this game. I don't think an extra $million to create more Li Feng cutscenes is what was needed.
 
Excuse the simplistic comment it's being a long ass day.

Shenmue 1 main story: Find thugs/Sailors

Shenmue 2 main story (ignore disc 4): Where's Zhu

Shenmue 3 main story: Find Yuan/Thugs

The basic premise of the Shenmue games is very simple IMO. What the first two games do better is develop the stuff around it to engross you in the story, characters etc. There's repetitive loops in all the games but they feel less so in the originals because of the extra bits I've mentioned.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top