Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[iknifaugood]

Shenmue 3 sold 17,857 physical copies in its opening week in Japan.

Japanese sales only account for 22% of all tracked sales.

This would suggest around 81,000 sales of the physical standard PS4 edition of the game in week 1.

Throw in the Special and Limited editions of the game (7,500+ copies) and add in digital sales and sales on the Epic store and I think it’s a fairly safe assumption that the game broke 100,000 sales in its opening week.

And none of those are Kickstarter sales? Just curious.

So you’re saying that Yu should have pocketed the money from the Kickstarter? I’m sure that would have gone down well.

No. But he shouldn't have spent more than the KS that's for sure.

For all we know some of the money was set aside for production of S4 or used to develop assets that could be used later in the series.

Fingers crossed.

What exactly would have painted S3’s performance in a positive light?

Positive reviews, an excited/expanding fanbase, positive sales numbers, positive think pieces etc.

(EDIT) The general consensus that this was a good game rather than the divisiveness that has plagued it.

You criticized the marketing because it failed to stack up to Bloodstained’s marketing whilst implying that this was the level they should have been aiming for. After being shown that they actually outperformed Bloodstained’s marketing by a significant margin, you then said that it still wasn’t good enough, suggesting that it should have done better (and, by extension, that Bloodstained wasn’t a fair comparison).

If you want to take the marketing in isolation then I guess the trailers performed better than Bloostained, I was just listing the other factors (that admittedly aren't connected to marketing) into account to factor in the overall negativity surrounding S3 compared to the overall positivity surrounding Bloodstained.

 

[WuyingRen]

And none of those are Kickstarter sales? Just curious.

That’s impossible to say without access to the full figures. Comparing other figures that we do have like the UK and Spanish sales though, it seems like S3 sold just over half as many copies of the HD rereleases in Europe, which would mean around 50,000 week 1 sales in Europe. Add these to the Japanese sales and that’s 70,000 not including NA, Australia, etc.

No. But he shouldn't have spent more than the KS that's for sure.

He used the money that was available to him to make the best game possible. Some fans and publications were incredibly critical of aspects of the game that were limited by budget. Can you imagine their response if he’d had half as much to spend?

Positive reviews, an excited/expanding fanbase, positive sales numbers, positive think pieces etc.

The game received some very positive reviews. We don’t know sales figures so to suggest that they are not positive is conjecture on your part. The same goes for whether or not the game brought in man new fans (although this was always going to be a challenge for the third game in a 20 year old franchise).

If you want to take the marketing in isolation then I guess the trailers performed better than Bloostained, I was just listing the other factors that (admittedly aren't connected to marketing) into account to factor in the overall negativity surrounding S3 compared to the overall positivity surrounding Bloodstained.

Of the other factors you listed, I see no facts. As the views were the only quantifiable things holding up your argument and they were wrong, I’d say that your argument is flimsy at best.

 

[iknifaugood]

That’s impossible to say without access to the full figures. Comparing other figures that we do have like the UK and Spanish sales though, it seems like S3 sold just over half as many copies of the HD rereleases in Europe, which would mean around 50,000 week 1 sales in Europe. Add these to the Japanese sales and that’s 70,000 not including NA, Australia, etc.


He used the money that was available to him to make the best game possible. Some fans and publications were incredibly critical of aspects of the game that were limited by budget. Can you imagine their response if he’d had half as much to spend?


The game received some very positive reviews. We don’t know sales figures so to suggest that they are not positive is conjecture on your part. The same goes for whether or not the game brought in man new fans (although this was always going to be a challenge for the third game in a 20 year old franchise).


Of the other factors you listed, I see no facts. As the views were the only quantifiable things holding up your argument and they were wrong, I’d say that your argument is flimsy at best.

Look, I have no desire to draw this conversation out or drag anybody down who feels positive about the game. I was asked why I feel negative about the game and I explained why, if you think it’s me jumping to conclusions or manipulating/ignoring facts or playing Chicken Little then so be it. All I’ll say is: if things were positive, then googling “Shenmue 3 sales” would yield positive articles.

I think there were many failures that resulted in S3 being the way it is and I have no desire to relitigate them. With respect to the budget: people have a problem with the game being bad, not how much money was spent. I hope S4 gets announced but until then I remain skeptical of its chances and concerned with whether it will even be any good.

 

[WuyingRen]

I think there were many failures that resulted in S3 being the way it is and I have no desire to relitigate them. With respect to the budget: people have a problem with the game being bad, not how much money was spent. I hope S4 gets announced but until then I remain skeptical of its chances and concerned with whether it will even be any good.

You’re the one who brought up budget in the first place and and point blank criticized Yu Suzuki for using all of the money at his disposal. This suggests that you have a problem with how much was spent. If you and others think the game is bad, it stands to reason that you’d think it was a whole lot worse if the team had had less budget (and consequently, less production time).

Look, I have no desire to draw this conversation out or drag anybody down who feels positive about the game.

Looking at your posts across the forum, you sure could’ve fooled me.

 

[Dehone]

View attachment 7414

As much as I would love for the trailer to gave that many views, a mere 254 likes and 1300 dislikes with 159 comments simply dont match up to 12 million views on that video. Something is definitely off here. No way a Shenmue trailer is doing numbers that would rival a tonight show interview, the democratic debate or even RDR2.

Almost every comment is calling Epic out for buying views. That epic trailer doesn't even show up in the first search results. It makes zero sense that there is this extreme uneven distribution of views where other offical channels havent even broken 1 million views

 

[iknifaugood]

You’re the one who brought up budget in the first place and and point blank criticized Yu Suzuki for using all of the money at his disposal.

As I said, when I (and I assume many people) donated to the Kickstarter, I thought I was donating to the future of the series. I assumed the series would be stripped down and focused, not that Suzuki would try to get as much money as possible in an attempt to recapture the size/scope of the originals. Again, I understand why he did it, I just disagree.

This suggests that you have a problem with how much was spent. If you and others think the game is bad, it stands to reason that you’d think it was a whole lot worse if the team had had less budget (and consequently, less production time).

Plenty of great games have been made for less. My main criticism is that S3 is meandering, poorly written, and doesn’t meaningfully advance the story. I would not have cared one bit if it was a 2D game with no voice acting but continued the story in a satisfying, focused way.

Looking at your posts across the forum, you sure could’ve fooled me.

Why? I don’t believe I’ve changed anyone’s opinion of S3.

 

[code l name]

Almost every comment is calling Epic out for buying views. That epic trailer doesn't even show up in the first search results

I’m sure someone more astute about analytics and how these things work, but I’m pretty sure this was an embedded ad, which is probably how it racked up a crazy view count.

I remember many of us prior to launch, clicking and viewing all types of YouTube videos hoping we would get chance to see embedded advert, some were claiming to see.

 

[WuyingRen]

As I said, when I (and I assume many people) donated to the Kickstarter, I thought I was donating to the future of the series. I assumed the series would be stripped down and focused, not that Suzuki would try to get as much money as possible in an attempt to recapture the size/scope of the originals. Again, I understand why he did it, I just disagree.

What on earth made you think that? The team provided a large number of stretch goals showing how they would use the budget (and any additional budget) to add to and improve Shenmue 3. For most, I think it’s very clear that Suzuki wanted to make the best game possible and from the outset planned to get as much funding as possible to achieve that. Disagree with his reasoning all you like, but criticizing him for doing exactly what he said he was going to do seems a tad unfair.

Plenty of great games have been made for less. My main criticism is that S3 is meandering, poorly written, and doesn’t meaningfully advance the story. I would not have cared one bit if it was a 2D game with no voice acting but continued the story in a satisfying, focused way.

This is your opinion and whilst I’ve no doubt that there are others who share it, it doesn’t make it fact. Again, you might not have cared if he’d released a 2D game with no voice acting and no animation, but I’m sure other (Suzuki included) would have. Is Yu Suzuki supposed to have made the game that you wanted him to?

Why? I don’t believe I’ve changed anyone’s opinion of S3.

I didn’t say that you’d been successful.

 

[iknifaugood]

What on earth made you think that? The team provided a large number of stretch goals showing how they would use the budget (and any additional budget) to add to and improve Shenmue 3.

I’m going to assume that people donating hundreds and thousands of dollars were doing so in the hopes that Suzuki would be able to finish the series, not just provide the next installment with no plan for the future. They also cut an entire area from the game, so clearly there was some degree of mismanagement.

For most, I think it’s very clear that Suzuki wanted to make the best game possible and from the outset planned to get as much funding as possible to achieve that. Disagree with his reasoning all you like, but criticizing him for doing exactly what he said he was going to do seems a tad unfair.

I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Shenmue means very different things to different people. What I expected from S3 on a basic level is very different from what was delivered.

This is your opinion and whilst I’ve no doubt that there are others who share it, it doesn’t make it fact.

I never said it was a fact.

Again, you might not have cared if he’d released a 2D game with no voice acting and no animation, but I’m sure other (Suzuki included) would have.

Whoa whoa whoa, I didn’t say no animation. I was merely pointing out that money could have been saved in lots of ways while delivering a focused Shenmue game.

Is Yu Suzuki supposed to have made the game that you wanted him to?

No but he shouldn’t have listened to whoever told him to put forklifts and Chai in the game either.

 

[Arcadio]

I must admit that I agree with iknifaugood most of the time.S3's shortcomings in storytelling are obvious，and these shortcomings are not just a matter of less budget.I love Shenmue series, I understand the team’s difficulty and the shortage of money and I am willing to pay for it, but I also have to admit S3’s disadvantages. The public does not understand the difficulty of S3, also won't because sympathetic to pay for it. If these shortcomings are not corrected, the series will undoubtedly die.I'm not just complaining, but I want Shenmue to survive.

 

[Dehone]

I’m sure someone more astute about analytics and how these things work, but I’m pretty sure this was an embedded ad, which is probably how it racked up a crazy view count.

I remember many of us prior to launch, clicking and viewing all types of YouTube videos hoping we would get chance to see embedded advert, some were claiming to see.

With that many views, there should still be a higher like/dislike and comment count. Many people click on the link in the text to fully open the video in YouTube. And given how passionate the fans are and how rabid the haters are, at least some of them would watch ther non embedded version to rate and comment on it.

I may have counted 10 comments shitting on the game, maybe 10 praising the game, maybe 10 comments or so totally irrelevant to the game and the remainder about buying likes, which had more total upvotes than comments. Again, I really wish the likes were legit, but I just dont see any Shenmue video on the tail of a something like the Last of Us 2 e3 gameplay launch trailer from 2018 that currently has 15 million views(its highest viewed) or Cyberpunk with 18M(its highest viewed), while a 3 month old shenmue 3 trailer is right on its tail with 12M

 

[iknifaugood]

With that many views, there should still be a higher like/dislike and comment count. Many people click on the link in the text to fully open the video in YouTube. And given how passionate the fans are and how rabid the haters are, at least some of them would watch ther non embedded version to rate and comment on it.

I may have counted 10 comments shitting on the game, maybe 10 praising the game, maybe 10 comments or so totally irrelevant to the game and the remainder about buying likes, which had more total upvotes than comments. Again, I really wish the likes were legit, but I just dont see any Shenmue video on the tail of a something like the Last of Us 2 e3 gameplay launch trailer from 2018 that currently has 15 million views(its highest viewed) or Cyberpunk with 18M(its highest viewed), while a 3 month old shenmue 3 trailer is right on its tail with 12M

It’s worth noting that when I checked @tomboz ’s videos, I’m not able to see the total views. I only see 60k views for instance on “A Day in Shenmue” and I wasn’t even able to find the EGS trailer when searching for “Shenmue 3 trailer”. Not really sure what’s up with that.

 

[WuyingRen]

I’m going to assume that people donating hundreds and thousands of dollars were doing so in the hopes that Suzuki would be able to finish the series, not just provide the next installment with no plan for the future. They also cut an entire area from the game, so clearly there was some degree of mismanagement.

I’m sure that we would have all loved to think that we were donating to prolong the future of the series indirectly, but it couldn’t have been clearer that Yu’s intention was to use the money to produce the best Shenmue 3 he could. I’d imagine his intention was to produce a commercially successful game in order to secure the fourth and fifth entries in the series rather than produce 3 half-arsed games that failed to live up to his own expectations as well as those of the fans. If he’d releases such a game in place of Shenmue 3, enthusiasm for the series would have died along with the prospect of any future games. He might have had money to continue, but would anybody want him to? The backlash he’d have faced for holding back funds to create future games would have also been incredibly damaging to the series as a whole.

I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Shenmue means very different things to different people. What I expected from S3 on a basic level is very different from what was delivered.

This should go without saying. Calling Yu unprofessional because he didn’t produce the game that you wanted him to seems a little unfair. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. Could it have been better? Of course it could have, but that doesn’t change the fact that his mandate was to use the money at his disposal to try to make the best game possible.

Whoa whoa whoa, I didn’t say no animation. I was merely pointing out that money could have been saved in lots of ways while delivering a focused Shenmue game.

Money could have been saved by stripping away things that are a central part of the Shenmue games and perhaps you might have been happy with this (although something tells me you’d be even more critical of such a game than you have been of the S3 we were given), but the vast majority of fans probably wouldn’t have been. Again, should Yu have scaled back his plans to please a minority of one?

No but he shouldn’t have listened to whoever told him to put forklifts and Chai in the game either.

How do you know that Yu himself didn’t want these things incorporated in the game? Where is your evidence to suggest that he did so to please someone else. I think I recall him saying that Chai was one of his favorite characters and so I wouldn’t be surprised if it had always been Yu’s intention to include him in subsequent games.

It’s worth noting that when I checked @tomboz ’s videos, I’m not able to see the total views. I only see 60k views for instance on “A Day in Shenmue” and I wasn’t even able to find the EGS trailer when searching for “Shenmue 3 trailer”. Not really sure what’s up with that.

As you seem to be having trouble searching on YouTube, here are the combined view-counts for the trailers hosted by Deep Silver (not including reuploads by Sony, Epic, fans and gaming publications).

Launch Trailer (all languages) - 2.5m
Spirit of the Land (all languages) - 427k
A day in Shenmue (all languages) - 3.6m
The Hidden Art Returns (all languages) - 1.1m

 

[Ren]

I think the biggest issue we seem to be missing and I see many people missed as well, is that Yu Started basically from scratch a company and that cost money.. If Yu YS.net had been making 3D games for years now, instead of mobile games, Shenmue III would been a completely different game.
When Yu was at Sega he had not only Sega huge Budget but access to Sega resources he could reuse.
Yu had none of that, I think Shenmue would had been higher quality game if they had outsourced the game to a company that works with Unreal Games, instead of working from scratch. He had to get talent, and hire people and work technology he had never worked with, has yu even worked with a game build with Unreal Engine before?
Sadly the worse culprit of Shenmue III quality is SegaSammy, they probably only gave Yu permission to use the license of course with a cut from sales of course, but didn't share resources and even limited the game by not approving for Shenmue to use Sega capsules. There was almost no support from SegaSammy. Basically Ys.net was alone and starting from scratch a new company, with no experience in unreal engine games.

I wish Yu would had made Virtua Fighter on Unreal Engine instead of Shenmue then reuse that to make Shenmue a fighting engine.

 

[The Wolf King]

I've missed about 20 pages but yes someone's opinion on a game is a fact... for that person as its what they believe.
If they said the world is flat? Different because we have enough proof it's round but if someone is disappointed/hated a form of entertainment then that's a fact from their view.
Can't claim that anyone disappointed in this game is trolling.

If 4 happens it needs a better team and someone to take over the lead from yu.

 

[Peter]

I remember many of us prior to launch, clicking and viewing all types of YouTube videos hoping we would get chance to see embedded advert, some were claiming to see.

Ahhhh good times.

 

[Sonoshee]

I've missed about 20 pages but yes someone's opinion on a game is a fact... for that person as its what they believe.
If they said the world is flat? Different because we have enough proof it's round but if someone is disappointed/hated a form of entertainment then that's a fact from their view.
Can't claim that anyone disappointed in this game is trolling.

If 4 happens it needs a better team and someone to take over the lead from yu.

Permission to shoot this guy?

 

[spud1897]

I've missed about 20 pages but yes someone's opinion on a game is a fact... for that person as its what they believe.
If they said the world is flat? Different because we have enough proof it's round but if someone is disappointed/hated a form of entertainment then that's a fact from their view.
Can't claim that anyone disappointed in this game is trolling.

If 4 happens it needs a better team and someone to take over the lead from yu.

No one is saying people who don't like the game is trolling.

Much like when someone tries to pass something off as fact without evidence. Eg you saying the game bombed due to that financial projection which was quickly debunked.

 

[murdiaries]

Hey this topic turned into a rant-zone!
C'mon just use your feedback into something propositive here for SM4 and SM series going forward!

 

[LemonHaze]

No but he shouldn’t have listened to whoever told him to put forklifts and Chai in the game either.

Ok, so what is the issue with Forklifts and Chai? 2 things present in the series since the beginning.