Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[LemonHaze]

What is factual is that I only talked about III. In fact, I made a clear distinction "In Shenmue III".

I think the origin of this came from @iknifaugood's comments, which I was replying to, which then you replied to

But it's all good, I just wanted to make sure it's only really Shenmue III that he can have that opinion for, and not the entire story...... yet.

 

[WuyingRen]

It's not that I'm necessarily interested in the chapters per se, it doesn't even appear that Suzuki is either as they are no longer present in Ryo's journal. It's more that I would like some clarification on where we are in terms of story and how much is left and how many more games he wants to spread it over.

Well this much I can tell you. As of fairly recently he says we’re about 40% of the way through the story. He’d like to complete the series with either the fifth or possibly sixth game but could do so in the fourth if push came to shove. I’m afraid I’m too tired to dig up a source for this, but if you read through his recent interviews I’m sure you’ll find it.

True, but then I don't see how this will be remedied in S4 unless Suzuki starts playing some games lol.

Or bring somebody on board who can help him to remain focused and reign in some of his overly ambitious ideas (as was the case with the first two games).

Because by increasing the budget past the KS amount he needed to reach beyond the fans. It's easy for me to see a world in which a version of S3 was released that addressed dunkey's criticisms of the series and received positive word of mouth. He says "you have this incredible soundtrack, QTE sequences that are actually well made, you have clunky but satisfying combat, all of these elements should add up to a great game". That doesn't sound like someone who just wants to hate on the series.

I’m not suggesting that it’s his prerogative to blindly hate on Shenmue, but that as a game, the ideas and gameplay just aren’t in line with what Dunkey considers to be a good game. Yes, he likes the music, the combat and the QTEs, but he didn’t like the repetition, the goofy dialogue and the slow pacing. For many these things are a big part of what makes Shenmue what it is. Changing or removing them to appease critics while alienating part of the fan base, especially when some of the critics will probably just find another reason to hate it.

I do understand what you’re saying here and even agree that there’s some logic in it, but I personally think that Yu should be looking to fulfill his personal vision for the game which, for the most part, is in line with what the fan base want.

Poor writing and stamina system aside, I absolutely loved Shenmue 3 and actually preferred the gameplay to Shenmue 1. I think if the writing had been better and the stamina system been split into hunger/health/stamina, 99% of the fan base would have been thrilled with Shenmue 3. With this in mind, I think that making changes to the Shenmue formula seems incredibly drastic.

 

[iknifaugood]

Well this much I can tell you. As of fairly recently he says we’re about 40% of the way through the story. He’d like to complete the series with either the fifth or possibly sixth game but could do so in the fourth if push came to shove. I’m afraid I’m too tired to dig up a source for this, but if you read through his recent interviews I’m sure you’ll find it.

I've only read the interview(s) where he's cited 40% and that he envisions the series in 4-5 games. To my knowledge, none of this is post-S3 so some clarification on how much of the story is in S3 and how it will be possible to cram the remaining 60% into possibly one more game, when the biggest game thus far has only contained potentially 30% would be nice to know, especially if he decides to go the crowdfunding route again.

Or bring somebody on board who can help him to remain focused and reign in some of his overly ambitious ideas (as was the case with the first two games).

Yes, he likes the music, the combat and the QTEs, but he didn’t like the repetition, the goofy dialogue and the slow pacing. For many these things are a big part of what makes Shenmue what it is.

But then why do they get to dictate what makes Shenmue what it is? Clearly the fanbase is pretty split. For instance, I never understood grinding for money as being "core" to the Shenmue experience. In S1, it's largely done passively (Ryo doesn't actually earn the money for his ticket to HK, it's just a narrative device) and in S2, it's to underscore how vulnerable Ryo is in this new land and how hostile the world outside his small town is (and to be clear, at the end of S2 Ryo gets to keep his earnings: his $500 turns into $3000). Also I'm not one who finds the poor English dub appealing, I play in Japanese. I'm always fascinated about what people think Shenmue is at its core because, as you say, nearly every answer is different.

Changing or removing them to appease critics while alienating part of the fan base, especially when some of the critics will probably just find another reason to hate it.

Very possible, but equally possible is that Shenmue becomes a better version of itself.

Poor writing and stamina system aside, I absolutely loved Shenmue 3 and actually preferred the gameplay to Shenmue 1. I think if the writing had been better and the stamina system been split into hunger/health/stamina, 99% of the fan base would have been thrilled with Shenmue 3. With this in mind, I think that making changes to the Shenmue formula seems incredibly drastic.

Better story/writing would definitely have mostly won me over but again, I just don't see Shenmue as having a "formula". Grinding for money and levels just isn't my idea of fun, and not something I ever played Shenmue for. I also don't need Suzuki to be slavish to 20 year old game design, it's ok for the dialogue system to be normal, for instance.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I think it's hard to make blanket statements about the fanbase would or wouldn't accept without actually testing the fanbase. It’s been 20 years since Shenmue 1 and we’ve all played plenty of games since. I think there are areas where Shenmue could’ve changed and not necessarily “destroyed” the essence of Shenmue. I do see the #letsgetshenmue4 hashtag isn't quite as active or popular as prior hashtags. Not sure if word hasn't gotten out or if enthusiasm is just low after Shenmue 3.

 

[WuyingRen]

I wouldn't say, black and white, that they were poorly-developed, but I will say that they could have been better implemented into the story.

Shiling and the big guy give us a little bit of backstory (Shiling's is actually fairly developed, moreso than Fangmei even) and they assist Ryo more than a few times each, when they are approached.

But I don’t see this as a fair comparison. Fang Mei was a tertiary character whilst Shrine Girl’s inclusion in the end game suggests that she was intended to be a primary character (despite her having seemingly been written as a tertiary character right up to the game’s climax).

One of Shenmue 3’s biggest problems is its distinct lack of primary characters. I’m sure there’s a textbook definition for primary, secondary and tertiary characters out there somewhere, but I tend to just ask myself the question ‘What role did they play in the overall narrative and would that narrative have differed drastically if the character had not been present?’.

When asking this question of Shenmue 3’s cast, I can’t really think of many who really had a major hand in shaping the game’s narrative. Had, for example, broom girl, never been added to the game, would the story have played out any differently? Even the characters who did have an impact on the overall plot were generic and forgettable. I’d wager that 95% of players don’t know either Mr Muscles Mk1 or Mr Muscles Mk2’s names (were we even told them in the story?).

Now ask that question of Guizang or Xiuying from Shenmue 1 and 2.

That secondary/tertiary characters like Tom and Zang had significantly more depth than Mr Hsu and Broom Girl is a pretty sad indictment of the quality of writing and overall character development that we saw in S3.

I appreciate that not every character can be fully fleshed out, but with the exception of Shenhua (who is technically a returning character), it felt like we barely scratched the surface with any of Shenmue 3’s cast.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I would put Fangmei more into Secondary character status; one of the Man Mo guys would be tertiary.

That puts her on par with Shiling.

Again, I totally see and understand where you're coming from; I think poor implementation was more of an issue, than not having a backstory.

Doesn't help that the big guy is almost a palette-swap of the Bailu guy.

 

[WuyingRen]

I would put Fangmei more into Secondary character status; one of the Man Mo guys would be tertiary.

That puts her on par with Shiling.

Again, I totally see and understand where you're coming from; I think poor implementation was more of an issue, than not having a backstory.

Doesn't help that the big guy is almost a palette-swap of the Bailu guy.

What role does Fangmei play in the story of Shenmue 2? Aside from waking Ryo up in the mornings, I can’t think of any meaningful interactions with her that aren’t optional.

In contrast, Shrine Girl risks her life to come to the fortified castle and is present for the game’s climax. This inclusion suggests to me that she is supposed to be important and thus one of the game’s few primary characters.

Other than her initial introduction and the fetch sutra quest however, interactions with Shrine Girl are incredibly limited (I actually went over to the Shrine at various points throughout the story in the hope of uncovering more during my second play through), whilst if the player puts in the time, Fangmei’s character is actually really well fleshed out.

A better comparison would be Shrine Girl and Xiuying and I don’t think that even the most ardent of Shenmue 3 fans is going to be backing Shrine Girl in that race.

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

Am I an asshole or am I right in saying some of us here may have actually made a better Shenmue 3 than Yu Suzuki himself, with the same budget?

 

[Thomasina]

Am I an asshole or am I right in saying some of us here may have actually made a better Shenmue 3 than Yu Suzuki himself, with the same budget?

I can say with certainty that no fan would have squandered resources on this food system as it is, the elaborate trading/exchange system, and no fan would have been satisfied with keeping "face off" in the game the way it is.

I'm convinced face off must mean something to Yu Suzuki or have some meaning that was cut out or something. I would love to see an explanation as to why it was put in.

 

[Peter]

Am I an asshole or am I right in saying some of us here may have actually made a better Shenmue 3 than Yu Suzuki himself, with the same budget?

 

[B-Man]

There's always a win possible. If you cant make a big world filled with content. Make it a smaller world.






Untrue. The problem with 3, as said before, is how prevalent this is in the story, how it unfolds, how it's done and how it's repeated in the exact SAME structure for both areas.

Why ? Because Shenmue I and II not only avoid to dedicate that to be their main plot point, they also fledge it in a different manner and in a more characterized one.

Yes, in Shenmue I, you end up "chasing thugs". But how does it unfold to reach that ? You have all the first part of the investigation, before any thug is involved. You have Ryo dealing with is father death, you have a lot of memorable characters introduced, with their stories unfolding. You have the relationship between Ryo and Nozomi. You have all the developpement between Ryo remembering his father in the house, Ryo's interactions with Ine-san and Fuku-san. You have the discovery of Dobuita and the locals, all with interesting interactions and stories. It's only until you meet Charlie (a minor antagonist that already leave some impressions) that we're starting to deal with thugs in some way. And from there, it's not an active search for the thugs. You learn about the mirror, you learn about the 3 Blades, and you end up learning about Master Chen. It's only from this moment that the game actively starts being about fighting thugs, the Mad Angels. But why do you happen to step into the Mad Angels ? Because Chai (another memorable antagonist) get in the way to your ticket for Hong Kong, as Ryo's goal was to go there to fight Lan Di. You end up investigating the Mad Angels to learn about Lan Di. Ryo doesn't care about fighting Terry at first. A lot of events unfold in a non-linear way and you end up with varied set pieces (the motorbike segment) and meeting even more memorable characters (Mark, Guizhang, Goro).

In Shenmue II, you end up "chasing thugs" too. But then again, it's not the main plot point. You arrive in Hong Kong to meet Tao Lishao and Yuanda Zhu to help you in your quest to learn more about Lan Di. You end up meeting thugs, because Wong steal your bag. You also beat the hell out of them. And then you proceed in your investigations, in which you meet Xiuying, learn about the Wude and in the process meet a shitload of interesting characters. Joy, the 4 masters teaching you about the Wude, Wong, Fangmei. Every events unfold in a non-linear way and doesn't follow a linear pattern. It's until you learn more about finding Yuanda Zhu that you get in the way of thugs and you are introduced to one antagonist, memorable as well, Yuan. The more you step into their stuff for your own quest, the more you interact with more thugs and you get to meet another great character: Ren. Non-linear stuff unfolds and you get to Kowloon. Does the same structure repeat here ? Hell no. You get into a wild city and pursue your investigation, which gets you to the tape section, an entire segment about following Yuan and you manage to find Yuanda Zhu after many kind of events that wouldn't happen in the first half of the game in which you end up in a pseudo fighting tournament to infiltrate YHD, HQ of Dou Niu the major antagonist of the game. You proceed to make your way in with an amazing set piece with a lot of gameplay ideas (the infiltration, the lights and such), you end up meeting a minor antagonist, yet fucking memorable that is Master Baihu and you get to fight Dou Niu in a mind blowing set piece.

Think this is over ? Here comes CD4. Fucking amazing narrative experience, with a non-linear structure again.



Now, let's get to Shenmue III shall we ? First thing you do in Bailu: You search for Shenhua's father. The very first 10 minutes, you hear that two thugs are causing troubles in the village. The very first 10 minutes, your objective is to investigate to find the thugs. All the quests unfold to lead to the 2 thugs, which you proceed to defeat. Then, they have a MUSCLED boss no one cares about, who beat the shit out of you the first time. You investigate again to search the father again and you meet the muscled boss and his two minions again. He beat the shit out of you. So you seek the help of an old master who accept to train you if you pay the cash. He trains you, you beat the guy and you learn that the princess... sorry the father is in another area. So you go to that area. You learn that 2 thugs are causing troubles in the area. You find them, it leads you to their MUSCLED boss no one cares about, who beat the shit out of you the first time. You investigate again to search the father again and you meet the muscled boss and his two minions again. He beat the shit out of you. So you seek the help of an old master who accept to train you if you pay the cash. He trains you, you beat the guy.


To make it clear once and for all. The problem isn't to chase thugs. The problem is how Shenmue III does it. How it does it twice. And how it does it twice the SAME way as the main story arch for the SAME story reason.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, but you're really oversimplifying what happens in Shenmue III to fit your narrative. If you're going to mention extremely minor details from the first two games, like learning about the Three Blades, then you can't leave out things like meeting one of Iwao and Sunming's masters, getting confirmation that it was Sunming in the photo with Iwao, learning more about the origin of the mirrors, going to temples that Iwao once visited, receiving an ema with a message intended for Ryo's mother, encountering Chai, fighting alongside Ren, Niao Sun being introduced, Ryo losing possession of the Phoenix Mirror, etc. There's also more to the investigation part of the gameplay than just asking about thugs or Shenhua's father, such as the list of stonemasons, having to acquire a VIP card to the Golden Goose, explaining the boss's animal styles, etc.

Yes, a lot more happens in Shenmue I & II, everything is more fleshed out, and the characters have a lot more depth. And yes, the same basic narrative structure is used in both Bailu and Niaowu. But Shenmue III is still not as simplistic as you make it sound. I'm also not sure why you're going on about Shenmue III being so much more linear than its predecessors. Shenmue has always been fairly linear and to use Disc 4 as an example of its non-linearity is absurd. I absolutely love Disc 4, but its structure is about as linear as it gets.

Is it kinda weird that I didn’t mind broom girl or fat guy tagging along? I agree they aren’t developed, but it’s not like they appear out of thin air either. You run into them a couple times in the game. This isn’t the only game where such a thing happens.

I didn't think it was that bad, but I'm pretty sure that most fans were disappointed in it because we were comparing it to our memories of the climactic battle on the roof of the Big Ox Building where Ren, Joy, and Wong all tagged along. It felt like they were going for something similar, except this time it was with three characters that Ryo just barely interacted with. I don't think people would have had as much of a problem with it here if it hadn't already been done so much better in Shenmue II (and to a lesser extent, Shenmue I, where Guizhang fights the Mad Angels with Ryo and saves him from Chai).

Doesn't help that the big guy is almost a palette-swap of the Bailu guy.

This is true. It's even more weird that the Bailu guy naturally gets more screentime and interaction by virtue of him hanging out in Village Square, while you need to actively seek out and enter Liu He Hall to interact with Hsu. Now that I think about it, there is a similar issue with Shiling. Wei Zhen feels more fleshed out and you interact with her more because of her placement on the map as opposed to Shiling, who you need to go out of your way to Liu Jiao Shrine to speak to.

What role does Fangmei play in the story of Shenmue 2? Aside from waking Ryo up in the mornings, I can’t think of any meaningful interactions with her that aren’t optional.

The main one that comes to mind is her telling Ryo who Ziming is. I feel like her main role in the story is to be a parallel to Xiuying, someone who Xiuying took in because she grew up in the same orphanage and reminds her of herself. Then again, that's all part of Xiuying's character development, not Fangmei's, so I see where you're coming from.

No thanks, I'll take whatever the Shenmue III team has in mind over "Telltale Presents Shenmue."

Am I an asshole or am I right in saying some of us here may have actually made a better Shenmue 3 than Yu Suzuki himself, with the same budget?

You're an asshole.

 

[iknifaugood]

Am I an asshole or am I right in saying some of us here may have actually made a better Shenmue 3 than Yu Suzuki himself, with the same budget?

It's a little presumptuous but S3 is bad enough that I definitely don't consider Suzuki the only person capable of helming the project. It's very possible he's a George Lucas type who benefits greatly from taking a backseat and letting others do the dirty work.

The comment was a bit of a layup but I must admit this was a funny response.

No thanks, I'll take whatever the Shenmue III team has in mind over "Telltale Presents Shenmue."

First of all it was a joke, second of all I've never suggested Shenmue be a TT-style game (I don't even particularly like their formula). That being said, S3 with writing, storytelling and set pieces of the quality seen in Walking Dead S1 and Wolf Among Us would be way better than what we got... by, like, a lot.

 

[Peter]

The comment was a bit of a layup but I must admit this was a funny response.

Its a glorious feeling when the opportunity arises to throw in a .gif that's completely in context.

 

[GhostTrick]

Am I an asshole or am I right in saying some of us here may have actually made a better Shenmue 3 than Yu Suzuki himself, with the same budget?

If we ignore the realities of game developpement and directing. Maybe. But what's the point ? Could I make a Shenmue III that pleased me more ? Maybe. But where's the surprise ? Where's the discovery ? What's the point for a fan to already know it ? It's basically the same difference when someone cook for you and when you cook for yourself. It doesn't taste the same. Well this can be said for any creation. If I just wanted to make my own headcannon, I'd just write a fan fiction and wank about myself making my perfect head cannon. But no one can be satisfied with their own conclusions and what people want is the story that was planned. Was I disappointed by Shenmue III ? Yes. Would've I wanted it from someone else ? Hell no. Nothing can always be perfect and disappointement is also part of what you can enjoy.

 

[iknifaugood]

meeting one of Iwao and Sunming's masters

His name was Grandmaster Feng. Tell me something else about him.

getting confirmation that it was Sunming in the photo with Iwao,

Sure. Can't wait for the next game to confirm that they were, in fact, good friends.

learning more about the origin of the mirrors

You mean the fact that they're only 70 years old and spent most of that time locked away in the Cliff Temple and hidden in Japan?

receiving an ema with a message intended for Ryo's mother,

One of maybe 2 scenes that felt worthy of the series to me. Over way too quickly.

fighting alongside Ren

Bit of a stretch, especially compared to S2.

Niao Sun being introduced

Who? I don't remember anyone named Niao Sun in the game...

There's also more to the investigation part of the gameplay than just asking about thugs or Shenhua's father, such as the list of stonemasons, having to acquire a VIP card to the Golden Goose, explaining the boss's animal styles, etc.

Literally 2 of these are extensions of asking about thugs and Shenhua's father.

 

[Dietsoap]

I wouldn't say, black and white, that they were poorly-developed, but I will say that they could have been better implemented into the story.

Shiling and the big guy give us a little bit of backstory (Shiling's is actually fairly developed, moreso than Fangmei even) and they assist Ryo more than a few times each, when they are approached.

Like with a lot of things storywise/characterwise in the later half of the game, I got the impression more was planned but scrapped, and we sort of got a skeleton frame in place of the bits they weren't able to satisfactorily complete. I know this is kind of irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I was thinking we might end up getting a director's cut of S3 if S4 ends up doing well.

 

[B-Man]

His name was Grandmaster Feng. Tell me something else about him.


Sure. Can't wait for the next game to confirm that they were, in fact, good friends.


You mean the fact that they're only 70 years old and spent most of that time locked away in the Cliff Temple and hidden in Japan?


Literally one of maybe 2 scenes that felt worthy of the series to me. Over way too quickly.


Bit of a stretch, especially compared to S2.


Who? I don't remember anyone named Niao Sun in the game...


Literally 2 of these are extensions of asking about thugs and Shenhua's father.

I'm not talking about the execution of these things. I'm talking about GhostTrick ignoring that they exist completely and acting like there is literally nothing in the game except for asking about thugs, getting beat by a muscled boss, and paying money for a master to teach you a move to beat the muscled boss. I already said that everything is more fleshed out and the characters have a lot more depth in the first two games.

And as obvious as it may have seemed to us after playing Shenmue II, I feel that confirmation both to Ryo and to the player that the man in the photo is Sunming Zhao was necessary to happen as some point. There is a reason why that item was not optional (if you didn't find it yourself in the basement, Fuku-san would give it to you before the end of the game).

 

[GhostTrick]

I'm not talking about the execution of these things. I'm talking about GhostTrick ignoring that they exist completely and acting like there is literally nothing in the game except for asking about thugs, getting beat by a muscled boss, and paying money for a master to teach you a move to beat the muscled boss. I already said that everything is more fleshed out and the characters have a lot more depth in the first two games.

And as obvious as it may have seemed to us after playing Shenmue II, I feel that confirmation both to Ryo and to the player that the man in the photo is Sunming Zhao was necessary to happen as some point. There is a reason why that item was not optional (if you didn't find it yourself in the basement, Fuku-san would give it to you before the end of the game).

You're right, it's indeed a bit more fleshed out, I didn't even mention Elder Yeh. But it remains rather light and it's still between the same narrative structure. You could also argue that I skipped a lot of things in Shenmue I and II.

 

[B-Man]

You're right, it's indeed a bit more fleshed out, I didn't even mention Elder Yeh. But it remains rather light and it's still between the same narrative structure. You could also argue that I skipped a lot of things in Shenmue I and II.

Fair enough.

 

[iknifaugood]

I'm not talking about the execution of these things. I'm talking about GhostTrick ignoring that they exist completely and acting like there is literally nothing in the game except for asking about thugs, getting beat by a muscled boss, and paying money for a master to teach you a move to beat the muscled boss. I already said that everything is more fleshed out and the characters have a lot more depth in the first two games.

Fair point.

And as obvious as it may have seemed to us after playing Shenmue II, I feel that confirmation both to Ryo and to the player that the man in the photo is Sunming Zhao was necessary to happen as some point.

I agree that it was necessary to point it out, but it would've been nice if there was more to it than that, especially considering that we hear it from Shenhua's father of all people and not, say, Yuanda Zhu or Grandmaster Feng. I'm legitimately concerned about the reveal that they were actually good friends because technically, that's never been stated. I could easily see someone who knew them both giving a spiel about how "Sunming and Iwao trained together until Zhao died. No I don't know how but I don't believe your father was capable of murdering Zhao because Iwao and Sunming Zhao were great friends. Also Zhao's son is Lan Di." And Ryo acting like that's earth-shattering news.

There is a reason why that item was not optional (if you didn't find it yourself in the basement, Fuku-san would give it to you before the end of the game).

I knew it wasn't optional (since it's in the inventory in S2) but I didn't know that Fuku-san gave it to you at the end. Cool.