Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[GhostTrick]

No, now you're trying to force my words into meaning something else. I am simply stating that you can't possibly determine the relevancy of characters only just recently introduced into the series, without knowing the entire story. This is a fact, actually.

In the overarching story ? Sure. In the game they're introduced ? Definitely. That is a fact too.

Hmm, @GhostTrick seems to be mentioning "Devil's Proof" for pretty much any time when anybody questions his opinions. I'm not sure this applies here, considering the story is not complete and therefore there is no logical way to determine the status of it as a whole.

Literally two times. "pretty much any time anybody questions his opinions".
And this definitely happens. You're telling me "You can't tell for sure the character wont get better in the next time, therefore, you cant prove that character is irrelevant". In the game they're introduced: Definitely.

I think people have trouble understanding cliff-hangers in this thread.

People don't have an issue with cliffhangers. But it's not because you end up on a cliffhanger that it's inherently good or inherently bad. In the case of Shenmue II ? You end up with a powerful moment, with a nice cutscene direction and hype af. In III ? It's anti-climatic and feels rushed.

 

[LemonHaze]

While this is true for certain elements of S2, it still tells a complete and compelling story. I didn't need to wait for S3 to get why Dou Niu was a worthy villain, or why I should care about Joy, or why Ren is the fucking man. S2 starts with Wong stealing Ryo's bag with all his money and the Phoenix mirror and by the end, he's so endearing that Dou Niu threatening his life is one of the main driving forces of the final battle.

The examples I cited were more along the lines of S3 where nothing made sense or nothing substantial happened but don't worry, more story is coming! Which is very different from a cliffhanger ending.

No, but you needed S3 to understand S2's actual ending (in the cave etc) in full, even if it's only slightly touched on in the main story of S3. This is my point. You need one to determine the other and in this case, we only have S1-S3, and don't really know for sure how many others we're going to get.

It is almost impossible to prove without reasonable doubt that the newly introduced characters in the Shenmue universe, in Shenmue III, are more or less relevant than anybody else, because we do not know the whole story to be able to make these claims, so until that happens, these are simply opinions and not facts.

 

[WuyingRen]

No, but you needed S3 to understand S2's actual ending (in the cave etc) in full, even if it's only slightly touched on in the main story of S3. This is my point. You need one to determine the other and in this case, we only have S1-S3, and don't really know for sure how many others we're going to get.

It is almost impossible to prove without reasonable doubt that the newly introduced characters in the Shenmue universe, in Shenmue III, are more or less relevant than anybody else, because we do not know the whole story to be able to make these claims, so until that happens, these are simply opinions and not facts.

I agree with this to some extent, but do you honestly believe that Fat Man and Broom Girl are going to play a significant role in the future of the series (or any role for that matter)?

 

[LemonHaze]

In the overarching story ? Sure. In the game they're introduced ? Definitely. That is a fact too.

Literally two times. "pretty much any time anybody questions his opinions".
And this definitely happens. You're telling me "You can't tell for sure the character wont get better in the next time, therefore, you cant prove that character is irrelevant". In the game they're introduced: Definitely.




People don't have an issue with cliffhangers. But it's not because you end up on a cliffhanger that it's inherently good or inherently bad. In the case of Shenmue II ? You end up with a powerful moment, with a nice cutscene direction and hype af. In III ? It's anti-climatic and feels rushed.

Now you're just being pedantic. Either way, is there a reason you keep using a legalese?

Devil's Proof is not really relevant here, was my main point

In no way did I say "You can't tell for sure the character wont get better in the next time, therefore, you cant prove that character is irrelevant", either. So don't quote that.

Sure, you can argue how you feel about them in Shenmue III alone, as a standalone game, but the story is not one game, it's all of them... and all of them haven't been released.

 

[LemonHaze]

I agree with this to some extent, but do you honestly believe that Fat Man and Broom Girl are going to play a significant role in the future of the series (or any role for that matter)?

I don't know. Because I cannot know.

 

[WuyingRen]

I don't know. Because I cannot know.

That’s not what I asked. Do you think it’s likely?

 

[mjqjazzbar]

This thread is brilliant. Shenmue 3 got you so used to repetition and grinding that now you’re grinding your argument skills. I fear you may be maxed out soon.

 

[LemonHaze]

That’s not what I asked. Do you think it’s likely?

I honestly don't know. I don't find myself pondering such things, things which I cannot within reason determine using facts and evidence. If I had to guess, I'd say it's not so likely. Grandmaster Bei, on the other hand, much more likely, but again, I can't say with certainty.

 

[GhostTrick]

Now you're just being pedantic. Either way, is there a reason you keep using a legalese?

Devil's Proof is not really relevant here, was my main point

In no way did I say "You can't tell for sure the character wont get better in the next time, therefore, you cant prove that character is irrelevant", either. So don't quote that.

Sure, you can argue how you feel about them in Shenmue III alone, as a standalone game, but the story is not one game, it's all of them... and all of them haven't been released.

I do indeed. All I'm saying is about Shenmue III alone. I don't know what's next. Did I ever said it applied to the rest ? I didnt. Those characters are irrelevant and leaves no impression. A lot of characters in I and II did... despite III, IV and V.

 

[LemonHaze]

I do indeed. All I'm saying is about Shenmue III alone. I don't know what's next. Did I ever said it applied to the rest ? I didnt. Those characters are irrelevant and leaves no impression. A lot of characters in I and II did... despite III, IV and V.

See, those statements are a lot better

Saying things as vague as 'these characters are irrelevant' though, can only, for now, apply to S3.

And I suppose, if some of these characters returned in S4+, and their performance/relevancy suits you, I'm sure you'll like them more..?

Further proving my point as to how right now, with only S3 at hand, you can only really judge them in that one game, and not look at them from the bigger picture, the Shenmue universe bigger picture.

 

[iknifaugood]

This is part of the reason that I’ve never been too interested in the ‘chapters’ as whilst they undoubtedly have an impact on the narrative as a whole, I don’t think they’re integral to the overall structure. As I say, search the forums as I’m confident it’s not quite as simple as ‘We’ve has 40% of the story and so must be up to chapter X’. It’s more like ‘We started at chapter 1, skipped over chapter 2 then jumped from chapter 3 to chapter 5 before jumping back to chapter 4 and then saw certain elements from chapters 6, 7 and 9.’. It’s starting to become as confusing as the Zelda timeline.

It's not that I'm necessarily interested in the chapters per se, it doesn't even appear that Suzuki is either as they are no longer present in Ryo's journal. It's more that I would like some clarification on where we are in terms of story and how much is left and how many more games he wants to spread it over.

(EDIT) Particularly in comparison to how much story is in S1-3.

If it was a straight up choice between a stronger narrative and weaker graphics, I’d probably have opted for the former, but there’s nothing to suggest that cutting back on graphical fidelity would have lead to a better story. If the story we got in S3 was the story that Yu wanted to tell, we may well have ended up with substandard graphics as well as a substandard story.

True, but weaker graphics could definitely have freed up time to focus on a better combat engine and a more polished overall UX. Polish counts for a lot and S3 is pretty janky in spots.

Maybe you’re right, but I still wouldn’t be surprised if the production team had been too shy to be critical. I think that most of the team were hired as contractors and as such could have been easily replaced. I wouldn’t want to piss off my boss and risk losing my job, especially if I didn’t have any strong feelings for the project.

True, but then I don't see how this will be remedied in S4 unless Suzuki starts playing some games lol.

Unfortunately, I think that Kojima is a bigger draw these days and will always be surrounded by hype. Suzuki, on the other hand, comes across as being quite modest. Kojika also had the rather substantial handicap of a blank cheque. It’s a lot easier to self promote when your budget allows for your each and every whim rather than fording you to make compromises and limiting your creativity.

Kojima has been cultivating himself as a brand since MGS. Suzuki (or at least someone at Sega) tried to do this in S1 but he just doesn't have the personality for it. Still it would've come in handy, obnoxious though it may be. We'll see how blank that cheque is for Kojima post-DS without the MGS IP to fall back on...

Things that are meaningless to you and I might be the driving force behind somebody else’s fandom and so making changes to the Shenmue formula is more or less impossible without upsetting some of the fans. This kind of supports my argument. Why make changes that will undoubtedly upset some of the fan base to potentially appease a critic who may very well still make fun of your game when all’s said and done?

Because by increasing the budget past the KS amount he needed to reach beyond the fans. It's easy for me to see a world in which a version of S3 was released that addressed dunkey's criticisms of the series and received positive word of mouth. He says "you have this incredible soundtrack, QTE sequences that are actually well made, you have clunky but satisfying combat, all of these elements should add up to a great game". That doesn't sound like someone who just wants to hate on the series.

 

[GhostTrick]

See, those statements are a lot better

Saying things as vague as 'these characters are irrelevant' though, can only, for now, apply to S3.

And I suppose, if some of these characters returned in S4+, and their performance/relevancy suits you, I'm sure you'll like them more..?

Further proving my point as to how right now, with only S3 at hand, you can only really judge them in that one game, and not look at them from the bigger picture, the Shenmue universe bigger picture.

Except your point is bad: Shenmue I and II don't need any of this. That an overarching story has a different purpose is a thing. But you can also judge a game individually. And I'll tell you even more: Shenmue IV being the best game ever made wont make III a better game. It won't make what Shenmue III presents better.

Hence why your point is irrelevant and is basically a Devil Proof. Because you cant argue around that, you're basically going all "How can you say those are irrelevant since the story has yet to be told !"

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I don't know. Because I cannot know.

I honestly don't know. I don't find myself pondering such things, things which I cannot within reason determine using facts and evidence. If I had to guess, I'd say it's not so likely. Grandmaster Bei, on the other hand, much more likely, but again, I can't say with certainty.

Speaking of the Matrix, now I know why you're a computer/programming whiz; you MUST be the oracle!

 

[WuyingRen]

I honestly don't know. I don't find myself pondering such things, things which I cannot within reason determine using facts and evidence. If I had to guess, I'd say it's not so likely. Grandmaster Bei, on the other hand, much more likely, but again, I can't say with certainty.

Ultimately, whether or not Yu plans to use these characters again moving forward doesn’t excuse how poorly they were developed nor how meaningless our interactions with them as a player were. If anything, them being important to the future narrative would make the poor writing even worse.

Of all of the new characters introduced in Shenmue 3, the only three whose names I even remember are Mr. Hsu, Elder Yeh and Grandmaster Bei and that’s coming off the back of a fairly recent playthrough. That I remember their names is more the result of the game forcing me to interact with them multiple times rather than their characters being memorable. Moreover, I’m not sure that I could tell you anything about them beyond what we’re given on face value. It’s a fat guy who studies king fu, an old blind woman who mixes herbs and a fisherman who is very good at kung fu.

Compared to the characters in Shenmue 1 and 2, the characters in Shenmue 3 are wafer thin and lacked any kind of meaningful depth.

 

[LemonHaze]

Shenmue IV being the best game ever made wont make III a better game. It won't make what Shenmue III presents better.

Nobody said that. And it is possible for characters introduced in S3 to appear better in S4, given that you don't know everything about a characters background, especially since they've only just been introduced.

You're bringing up legalese for no reason, they're entirely irrelevant here. I already told you, you can discuss a game on its own, but you cannot without reasonable doubt pass anything like what you're saying off until the story is complete. This is factual, please stop.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Is it kinda weird that I didn’t mind broom girl or fat guy tagging along? I agree they aren’t developed, but it’s not like they appear out of thin air either. You run into them a couple times in the game. This isn’t the only game where such a thing happens.

 

[LemonHaze]

Ultimately, whether or not Yu plans to use these characters again moving forward doesn’t excuse how poorly they were developed nor how meaningless our interactions with them as a player were. If anything, them being important to the future narrative would make the poor writing even worse.

Of all of the new characters introduced in Shenmue 3, the only three whose names I even remember are Mr. Hsu, Elder Yeh and Grandmaster Bei and that’s coming off the back of a fairly recent playthrough. That I remember their names is more the result of the game forcing me to interact with them multiple times rather than their characters being memorable. Moreover, I’m not sure that I could tell you anything about them beyond what we’re given on face value. It’s a fat guy who studies king fu, an old blind woman who mixes herbs and a fisherman who is very good at kung fu.

Compared to the characters in Shenmue 1 and 2, the characters in Shenmue 3 are wafer thin and lacked any kind of meaningful depth.

Ok, great opinion, I guess?

But still, I'm fairly certain you cannot prove without reasonable doubt that your opinion is correct, hence it is just an opinion.

 

[LemonHaze]

also, participants of thread.. relevancy != (is not equal to) peformance

 

[GhostTrick]

Nobody said that. And it is possible for characters introduced in S3 to appear better in S4, given that you don't know everything about a characters background, especially since they've only just been introduced.

You're bringing up legalese for no reason, they're entirely irrelevant here. I already told you, you can discuss a game on its own, but you cannot without reasonable doubt pass anything like what you're saying off until the story is complete. This is factual, please stop.

What is factual is that I only talked about III. In fact, I made a clear distinction "In Shenmue III".

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Ultimately, whether or not Yu plans to use these characters again moving forward doesn’t excuse how poorly they were developed nor how meaningless our interactions with them as a player were. If anything, them being important to the future narrative would make the poor writing even worse.

I wouldn't say, black and white, that they were poorly-developed, but I will say that they could have been better implemented into the story.

Shiling and the big guy give us a little bit of backstory (Shiling's is actually fairly developed, moreso than Fangmei even) and they assist Ryo more than a few times each, when they are approached.