Budget Is NOT An Excuse

My beef with this quote is that Shenmue 3 really didn't introduce any new mysteries. And it completely ignored the previous game's biggest ones (sword, giant mirrors, Shenmue tree) implying those weren't important at all to begin with. The mysteries it did touch on were either information we already learned in prior games that were being introduced seemingly for first time (Zhao Sunming) or new information that actually contradicted what we've learned in prior games (Shenhua talked about mirrors an ancient emporer made being a legend of the village in Shenmue 2, now the mirrors are just 70 years old and nobody in the village has a clue about anything).

The complaint about cleaning up the story not being related to budget is 100% valid. There are dozens of fans who would have done this for free! The script is so thin it would not have taken long at all for someone with fresh knowledge of the first games' story to edit into something a bit more sensible.

Maybe it comes down to Suzuki viewing the story differently from the fans. He has 11 chapters written that he draws from and adapts into game form. That's probably the material he knows and what he referenced from to make Shenmue 3 - not his previous adaptations. What we consider canon (Shenmue I and II) was tweaked from what's actually canon (the chapter books - which may be fairly basic outlines of a story for all we know) so not every plot point from those games is going to resonate in future adaptations.

I will say it was a bitter pill to swallow. Something the kids in all of us have waited on for so long actually materialized - things like that don't usually happen and it was damn cool to scratch that itch. Shame it didn't meet my personal expectations story-wise. At the end of it, I am still invested, and have been enjoying discussing it all with the community here. And I actually blazed through a 30hr video game - haven't done that in 15 years. I had a ton of fun and really hope there's a Shenmue 4.

There was 3 other writers who worked on Shenmue 3, Suzuki probably just has the outline of the story which they then adapted/scripted. Any story errors (continuity) will be on them mainly, Suzuki as Director would probably get final pass on it but ultimately there's 3 other writers, two of who are new to the series. The series original main writer didn't seem to work on 3 really despite being a part of the Kickstarter initially.
 
There was 3 other writers who worked on Shenmue 3, Suzuki probably just has the outline of the story which they then adapted/scripted. Any story errors (continuity) will be on them mainly, Suzuki as Director would probably get final pass on it but ultimately there's 3 other writers, two of who are new to the series. The series original main writer didn't seem to work on 3 really despite being a part of the Kickstarter initially.
Starting to think story writing and plotting isn’t really Yu’s role... Shenmue II had many writers.
 
As the director, though, it is his job to ensure the whole project comes together properly. I can’t totally let him off the hook.
 
Starting to think story writing and plotting isn’t really Yu’s role... Shenmue II had many writers.
YS isn't a writer, probably the story was a basic journey around china with some cool stuff he saw on his trip, and probably some cool scenarios he though would be cool to include. It's the job of the writers to make it appealing.

Yes, that exact same budget. Look I’m not saying there are no merits to the complaints that the story could have been better in multiple ways, but if Yu had cut out environments, mini games, food stalls etc, you would find people would complain it’s missing that Shenmue feeling.
Why keep saying the same thing ? It's not a matter of budget, there are one man indie games that have great writing and costed 1/10th or less than what Shenmue costed. Look at Bailu for example, from the start we know that Yuan is missing and that there are some thugs, the first thing we know is that they are attacking stonemasons, but it takes almost 1/3 of the game sequence for ryo to "finally" realize something that players basically understood the first 5 minutes of playing. It's not a budget problem, it's something that even regular players see at first glance while playing the game.
 
Why keep saying the same thing ? It's not a matter of budget, there are one man indie games that have great writing and costed 1/10th or less than what Shenmue costed. Look at Bailu for example, from the start we know that Yuan is missing and that there are some thugs, the first thing we know is that they are attacking stonemasons, but it takes almost 1/3 of the game sequence for ryo to "finally" realize something that players basically understood the first 5 minutes of playing. It's not a budget problem, it's something that even regular players see at first glance while playing the game.
Exactly right. I would guess that the story is as protracted as it is due to budget (ie: Bailu Village clearly only had enough content for maybe an hour or two of playtime) but that doesn’t excuse Niaowu being a total waste of time story wise.
 
Am I the only one that feels you guys are over reacting to the story ?

Shenmue 1 also had lots of story problems.

Shenmue 1:
1. it had a slow pacing.(It was like the chapter was unnecessarilly stretched.)
2.You never feel anything as Ryu's father dies. Because he just gets killed in the first cutscene he appears.(underdeveloped character)
3.No funeral scene.
4.They never tell the cops about it.
5.Ryu's friend that gave him his motor bike was also underdeveloped as a character.
 
Shenmue 1 also had lots of story problems.

Shenmue 1:
1. it had a slow pacing.(It was like the chapter was unnecessarilly stretched.)
2.You never feel anything as Ryu's father dies. Because he just gets killed in the first cutscene he appears.(underdeveloped character)
3.No funeral scene.
4.They never tell the cops about it.
5.Ryu's friend that gave him his motor bike was also underdeveloped as a character.
This guy gets it.
 
Am I the only one that feels you guys are over reacting to the story ?

Shenmue 1 also had lots of story problems.

Shenmue 1:
1. it had a slow pacing.(It was like the chapter was unnecessarilly stretched.)
2.You never feel anything as Ryu's father dies. Because he just gets killed in the first cutscene he appears.(underdeveloped character)
3.No funeral scene.
4.They never tell the cops about it.
5.Ryu's friend that gave him his motor bike was also underdeveloped as a character.

I do remember being very surprised that Ryo's father dies in the opening cutscene... I figured it would have happened mid-way through the story.

I guess you could sum up the main story in the games this way and you could argue nothing else really happens:

S1: Ryo buys a boat ticket.
S2: Ryo searches for Yuanda Zhu
S3: Ryo confronts Lan Di

However, S1 and S2 told a richer story than S3.
 
Am I the only one that feels you guys are over reacting to the story ?

Shenmue 1 also had lots of story problems.

Shenmue 1:
1. it had a slow pacing.(It was like the chapter was unnecessarilly stretched.)
2.You never feel anything as Ryu's father dies. Because he just gets killed in the first cutscene he appears.(underdeveloped character)
3.No funeral scene.
4.They never tell the cops about it.
5.Ryu's friend that gave him his motor bike was also underdeveloped as a character.
To me shenmue 1 don't share the same issue with shenmue 3 in term of story, also shenmue 1 don't have two games before it.
 
Shenmue 1:
1. it had a slow pacing.(It was like the chapter was unnecessarilly stretched.)
2.You never feel anything as Ryu's father dies. Because he just gets killed in the first cutscene he appears.(underdeveloped character)
3.No funeral scene.
4.They never tell the cops about it.
5.Ryu's friend that gave him his motor bike was also underdeveloped as a character.
Regarding number 4 there is a cool detail where you can try calling the police and Ryo says he will handle it himself.

Everything else is spot on though. I've always thought that if Shenmue 1 were to be remade it should spend more time focusing on the family and friends side, showing the funeral, showing how Ryo emotionally handles his father's death with his social life etc. instead of spending half the game looking for the Mad Angels. It would develop some of the underused friend characters and Nozomi a little more.

I also think it fits Suzuki's initial themes of Sadness and Departure.
I do remember being very surprised that Ryo's father dies in the opening cutscene... I figured it would have happened mid-way through the story.
In the Saturn footage it did seem there were scenes with Iwao prior to what we know as the opening cutscene. I don't think it would have happened halfway through the game, but they may have originally planned having more normal scenes before Lan Di arrives. This was probably changed for pacing reasons, to start the game off with a hook.
 
In the Saturn footage it did seem there were scenes with Iwao prior to what we know as the opening cutscene. I don't think it would have happened halfway through the game, but they may have originally planned having more normal scenes before Lan Di arrives. This was probably changed for pacing reasons, to start the game off with a hook.
In Shenmue 3 , Ryu tells Shenhua that he kinda disliked his father.(By telling her that his father didn't like him.)
Which is another proof that some parts of Shenmue 1 were cut.

Probably before his father dies, he had some disagreements with him that made his father to scold him or something like that.
 
One ret-con I actually liked in S3 the sword of 7 stars being smaller and almost like a danger.

It was ridiculously huge for such a decorative sword in S2.. I'm glad they made it smaller in S3.
 
Am I the only one that feels you guys are over reacting to the story ?

Shenmue 1 also had lots of story problems.

Shenmue 1:
1. it had a slow pacing.(It was like the chapter was unnecessarilly stretched.)
2.You never feel anything as Ryu's father dies. Because he just gets killed in the first cutscene he appears.(underdeveloped character)
3.No funeral scene.
4.They never tell the cops about it.
5.Ryu's friend that gave him his motor bike was also underdeveloped as a character.

For Shenmue 3 to have the same pacing as Shenmue 1 does not feel appropriate. Also, Shenmue 1's pacing is not really that slow (much of the slowness is caused by the fact you can't skip time). In fact, a lot of plot events that happen within Disc 1 leads you deeper into the rabbit hole: from Iwao's death, the mirror being taken by Lan Di, Ryo's vow on revenge, asking about the black car which leads to asking about Chinese to learn more about Lan Di, finding the 3 Blades, learning that Lan Di is probably from a black market Chinese cartel, finding sailors to learn more about the cartel (learning a sailor Charlie has a tattoo, possibly the same as Lan Di's), learning about a Chinese letter sent to Iwao after his death, finding help to translate it, learning about the sender Zhu Yuanda and the fact he knew about the mirrors and Lan Di, and to find Master Chen for help. All the above points happen within the short span of Disc 1.

Disc 2 just gets better when Ryo learns Lan Di is leader of Chi You Men and there is in fact a second mirror hidden in Ryo's house, and the mirrors when combined will resurrect a monster Chi You to devour the world. The game then introduces Chai who tries to steal the mirror, Ryo learning Lan Di has left for Hong Kong and tries to persuade Ine-San for help but failed, using his own means to get to Hong Kong and then getting scammed and ticket taken by Chai, getting thrashed by Chai when he tries to get ticket back and ask info about Lan Di, beating the travel agency scammer and learning Chai is connected to the Mad Angels, and Disc 3 focuses on learning about the Mad Angels by working at the harbor, etc.

Shenmue 1 is thick with suspense and mystery and Shenmue 2 builds on it with more action and danger. And the plot always develops in such a way that it is a continuous trail of leads and discoveries and every event serves its purpose. Also, Shenmue 2 introduces many new interesting things in terms of action sequences and plot points and hardly re-uses events that happened in Shenmue 1. But what quality of plot development does Shenmue 3 provide us with?

Finding Shenhua's dad, Mr. Yuan, hoping to learn more about the mirrors, learning the thugs are targeting stonemasons, learning from Grandmaster Feng the guy in the old photo next to Iwao is Zhao Sunming (ok, nice little revelation, one that we suspected all along), learning from female monk both Iwao and Sunming visited the temple and stopped coming one day (ok, a good setup to more mystery), and Iwao left an ema stating to an unknown female, Akane, that he will return for her (perhaps the best new revelation in the whole game), finding a photo about the Verdant Bridge and imperial envoy carrying banners with signs similar to the mirrors (interesting plot point here if only it goes further), asking so many old people and learning nothing new about the envoy, trying to rescue stonemason Yanxin from a thug. After a long process, we defeated a thug and rescue Yanxin (who doesn't do anything or reveal any useful information), learns Shenhua has mind-related powers (a cool buildup to her character), and learns the thug was ordered by higher ups to steal the Phoenix Mirror (ok... we already know the thugs are looking for Phoenix Mirror from the other stonemason). Elder Yeh reveals the emperor sought out Yuan family to carve the mirrors (nothing much new here, we all sort of know Yuan is involved in the carving of the mirrors as told by Shenhua) and we find a treasure map and that's half of the game.

Do you see one common problem with the plot events of Shenmue 3 above? They are all scattered plot arcs, each opening a different rabbit hole and doesn't lead us into any of it. It's so disjointed, and what purpose does Chai serve? None. He's just there to be thrashed and does nothing to add to the conflict.
We want to learn more about the story of the Verdant Bridge and the mirrors, more about Iwao and Zhao Sunming's story when they were in Bailu Village, but the 2nd half of the game does not continue on these story threads, nor does it on Shenhua's powers. And the treasure map, what purpose does it or the picture of Niaowu serve? It's not like they later go to Niaowu to decipher or locate leads that will lead them to the mountains in the treasure map, where perhaps Yuan is taken to to decipher the way to use the mirrors.

Instead, the story only focuses on finding the thugs that took Yuan, beat them up, find them again, beat them up, find them again?? Beat them up again?? Find their leader, get beaten up. Bring Ren along, get beaten up again??? Ask for advice on how to defeat the leader, learns it and then Shenhua gets kidnapped, the siege at the old castle to save her, losing the Phoenix Mirror to Niao Sun (who has no contribution to the plot all along and no explanation why she knows Ryo has the Phoenix Mirror and waited so long to kidnap Shenhua) and fighting Lan Di. The old castle portion has so many things happening: Niao Sun introduced, rescuing Shenhua and Yuan, fighting Lan Di, and yet it is the shortest part of the whole game while the boring parts before it are dragged out so much.
Do you see how weak, illogical and boring the 2nd half of Shenmue 3 is from the events above? It is like a lousy version of Shenmue 1 where Ryo asks about sailors on Chinese cartel, finds sailors, beat them up, find them again, beat them up, finds Charlie, gets beaten by Charlie, learns how to beat Charlie, beats him, Nozomi gets kidnapped, finds the Mad Angels and beat them and saves Nozomi. That's the end of Shenmue 1. If Shenmue 1 were to share such boring plot events, I would never have loved the story.

At the end of Shenmue 3, after coming all this way to find Yuan, we learn nothing about the mirrors or the imperial envoy's intention, which is sumthin Ryo wanted to ask all along from the start of S3. Instead, he is told that the man in the old photo is Zhao Sunming (again??) and Lan Di is his son (again??). Weren't we already told this at the end of Shenmue 2? Only consolation is we learn Lan Di was raised by the Chi You Men and Zhao Sunming tried to guard the mirrors from Chi You Men, but the main thing we want to know is about the mirrors! Why did the emperor want them made and what the treasure is why the Chi You Men want it so badly? Yuan's ancestors are the chosen stonemasons who carved the mirrors so Yuan must know much about it, but we learn nothing.

Shenmue has never been about big revelations or shocking twists but the scenarios that the characters go through that made us attach to them, bond them together and change the way they think. Besides bettering Kung Fu, it's about Ryo's journey of self cultivation through Kung Fu, which is greatly touched on in the Xiuying's story arc. But Shenmue 3 does not touch on that at all, and it kind of turns me off when the ending scene shows Ryo still bent on killing Lan Di without any change in his thinking. Surely after hearing that he's raised by the Chi You Men after Sunming died, and Sunming is a good guy meant to protect the mirrors, he should question if Lan Di is really a bad guy or is he a victim like himself, but no, Ryo is just a one-dimensional character who thinks like a robot, like the code 'revenge' is programmed into his algorithm. It's so sad to see the series' story going downhill this way, when Shenmue had always been the only game series that showed promise in the story department.
 
Why do you think that Ryu should stop thinking about revenge ?

That is his main weakness.

- That is why he always wants to go find Lan Di even though that he knows that he is no match for him.

-That is why he never listens to those martial arts masters that he met in previous games.(Master chen, Lishao Tao)

-That is why he gets in a lot of problems and why sometimes he just gets beat up by thugs.

-He is too blinded by it to even have any crush on Nozomi, Joy and even Shenhua.

If he didn't have that then he would just stay in the dojo of Lishao Tao until he is ready to face Lan Di. Which would become a boring story.

Also Ryu is kinda naive which is why he didn't think about whether Lan Di is a victim like him or not.After all he easily got tricked by Ren in Shenmue 2.(That coin part.)
 
Why do you think that Ryu should stop thinking about revenge ?

That is his main weakness.

- That is why he always wants to go find Lan Di even though that he knows that he is no match for him.

-That is why he never listens to those martial arts masters that he met in previous games.(Master chen, Lishao Tao)

-That is why he gets in a lot of problems and why sometimes he just gets beat up by thugs.

-He is too blinded by it to even have any crush on Nozomi, Joy and even Shenhua.

If he didn't have that then he would just stay in the dojo of Lishao Tao until he is ready to face Lan Di. Which would become a boring story.

Also Ryu is kinda naive which is why he didn't think about whether Lan Di is a victim like him or not.After all he easily got tricked by Ren in Shenmue 2.(That coin part.)

It's true that it's his weakness, but after all that's happened and being defeated by Lan Di a second time, he should at least learn it's futile fighting him at his level. After all, he accepted he must ask for advice when he lost to Yanlang the thug in Bailu Village and almost the Red Snakes leader. But when it comes to Lan Di, this awareness seems absent all of a sudden. Also, Lan Di is a master of a deadly martial art, so he can easily kill with one blow if he wants, but he doesn't kill Ryo or Ren even after Ren threw the mirror out the window. This should cast a different light on Lan Di's character for Ryo. I just feel if Ryo's words reflect these considerations, it will make Ryo a more interesting character and I believe ppl will only like it more that way. He can't stay equally blinded on revenge forever.

Also, Yu once said Ryo's thirst for revenge will fade as he journeys on, so it's only reasonable to have some changes in his thinking. After all, this is already 40% through the story.
 
One reason I think the fight with Lan Di wasn't even supposed to happen (;at least this early) is after Ryo being completely shut down by him, in the last cutscene Ryo just says "don't run away, Lan di" like nothing happened.
 
It's true that it's his weakness, but after all that's happened and being defeated by Lan Di a second time, he should at least learn it's futile fighting him at his level. After all, he accepted he must ask for advice when he lost to Yanlang the thug in Bailu Village and almost the Red Snakes leader. But when it comes to Lan Di, this awareness seems absent all of a sudden. Also, Lan Di is a master of a deadly martial art, so he can easily kill with one blow if he wants, but he doesn't kill Ryo or Ren even after Ren threw the mirror out the window. This should cast a different light on Lan Di's character for Ryo. I just feel if Ryo's words reflect these considerations, it will make Ryo a more interesting character and I believe ppl will only like it more that way. He can't stay equally blinded on revenge forever.

Also, Yu once said Ryo's thirst for revenge will fade as he journeys on, so it's only reasonable to have some changes in his thinking. After all, this is already 40% through the story.
Interesting. But I think that the director decided to move that plot into Shenmue 4.(Probably at the opening level of Shenmue 4 he will have some dialogues about it.)

For me the only part of the story that was kinda weird was when Ren threw the mirror out of the window and Lan Di just stared at that direction like a slow minded person while the fire was burning the place around him.
Why was he like that ?

But again that Shenmue 2 escape scene of Lan Di was also felt weird for me at that time.(Why escape while a person he is looking for is in that building and he can easily beat the crap out of Ryo ?)
 
Interesting. But I think that the director decided to move that plot into Shenmue 4.(Probably at the opening level of Shenmue 4 he will have some dialogues about it.)

For me the only part of the story that was kinda weird was when Ren threw the mirror out of the window and Lan Di just stared at that direction like a slow minded person while the fire was burning the place around him.
Why was he like that ?

But again that Shenmue 2 escape scene of Lan Di was also felt weird for me at that time.(Why escape while a person he is looking for is in that building and he can easily beat the crap out of Ryo ?)
For me it's because he clearly has a use for Ryo or even an acceptance that he would go after him. There's more to Lan Di than meets what little we've seen of him. He has plans for Ryo I'm sure
 
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