Did Shenmue 3 hurt the series?

[WuyingRen]

The estimated value for the data set is a 3.102 (stars out of 5, lets say). Slightly better than average. It's an imprecise measure for any more granular scale than that.

No it isn’t. Your conversion is making the assumption that each range is equal to its upper limit, so you’re effectively rounding up each value by 50%. A user score of 1-2 is not equal to a 1 star rating. It would translate to a rating of 0.5 stars to 1 star.

If you really want to convert this data from a numerical output to stars, the mean would be somewhere between 2.6 and 3.2 stars while the median and mode would be between 2.5 and 3 stars.

Don't do this. It's not a continuous numerical* data set.

*Apologies. I meant to say that it's categorical, and not numerical, but crossed a wire, I guess.

I think what you intended to say that it’s not interval data, and although there’s some debate surrounding whether numerical ratings are ordinal or interval, most (myself included) would agree with you.

 

[iknifaugood]

However, when someone makes the rather hyperbolic claim of 'Shenmue 1 & 2 training = good, Shenmue 3 training = bad', I have to wonder if people are blindly clasping at straws just to make everything about Shenmue 3 sound bad.

I'm sure there are those who try to do anything to make S3 sound bad but that's not what I'm doing. You're not comparing apples to apples in this instance because you're shifting the discussion between two points: how S1 and 2 handle Ryo learning moves and how they handle Ryo training. The two moves that Ryo learns in S3 are not comparable to moves that Ryo learns in S1 and 2 because Ryo learns several moves in those games, they're explained the way they are because they have to correspond to the controller inputs since, unlike S3, they can be used at will during combat, and can you imagine how annoying it would be if everyone who taught you a move in S1 and 2 made you jump through the hoops that Sun and Bei do?

So what learning the move from Sun resembles most is Xiuying's training--Xiuying similarly sizes Ryo up, makes him jump through hoops, and is careful to only give Ryo what he wants when he proves himself. If your only point is to say that the gameplay taken in complete isolation is more or less the same (ie: doing QTEs to air out books, press a button to catch a leaf etc.) then I agree, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm mainly concerned with Shenmue from a storytelling perspective because imo that's where the series really excels, and if you look at the storytelling difference between Xiuying's training and Sun's training then, well, that's the difference right there.

I will say that part of what I disliked about the fact that learning moves was so pivotal to S3 (apart from how it butchers the portrayal of martial arts by implying the existence of magic counter moves) is that they took something that was a relatively simple task in S1 and 2 and hinged most of the plot on it. Learning a move is so anticlimactic when it's given "main quest" status imo.

Meanwhile, Ryo shows off with rock smashing before learning JIE, which makes no sense. So, anyone can learn JIE then?

That's not how he learns JIE. Like all four wude, he learns it from a master; the only reason he needs to smash the rock is because the street performer makes him. Anyone can learn any/all of the four wude by simply having them explained to them, S2 adopts the "show, don't tell" model of storytelling, which I happen to think is very effective.

Shenmue 3 tries to elicit a feeling to the player to make them appreciate the lessons Ryo is going through. How is that a bad thing?

Because, for me at least, frustration is the only feeling S3 was able to elicit from me (and disappointment).

look at all the training from 1 & 2 which I outlined in my last post and recognise that Ryo is jumping through similar hoops to either prove himself worthy to someone or to appreciate a certain lesson by the end. Please realise that all this is happening while a youth is in terrible danger because he holds part of a key that a murderous, criminal organisation is frantically pursuing so they can potentially resurrect an ancient Chinese mythological monster that will devour the entire world! 'Hmm...a letter from Yaowen Chen that urgently warns me about the gravity of this perilous situation. Forget that! Let's test to see whether this guy holds any sexist inclinations. That's sure to be the most appropriate thing to do right now!'

You have this completely backward; Ryo's goals are what matter (because that's what keeps him on the same page as the player). In S2 he needs to find Lishao Tao and Yuanda Zhu; there is no ticking clock to either objective. If he found out that Yuanda Zhu was kidnapped by the CYM and Xiuying knew where he was, then it would indeed suffer from the same problems as S3. The bad guys pursuing the mirrors are an existential threat and, at this point in the story, it's established that they either don't know that there are two mirrors, or that Iwao had both of them, so Ryo is relatively safe from that threat.

That's subjective. The quest inciting emotions in the player to replicate the frustration Ryo must be feeling is pretty neat and far more memorable than a simple exposition scene.

All opinions are subjective. I don't think frustration is a very difficult emotion to incite from a player so I don't give a ton of credit no matter how "intentional" it is. Plus there are crazy mixed messages about these paywalls: are they supposed to be frustrating or not? People keep saying they're not frustrating (implying that if they were frustrating, that would be bad) because S3 is meant to be played slowly and you should have plenty of money but then others like you say it's supposed to be frustrating and that's a good thing. I think it's supposed to be frustrating and it's bad.

Ryo does not learn to be crafty by 'picking herbs or chopping wood' (?), he has always been crafty.

Then he's not learning anything is he?

Sun merely wanted Ryo to exhibit it so he could use some lateral thinking to overcome a challenging obstacle

What lateral thinking? Ryo needs a lot of money so he... earns a lot of money? Would Sun have still trained him if he simply stole the wine?

And you can try to word things in such a way to make it sound like the point I am making is dense, but you're the one who failed to consider that craftiness does, in fact, have some relevance to martial artists who use strategy to exploit an opponent's weaknesses, just like Ryo did by learning Ge's style and then defeating him with a tailored move that took advantage of its weak points. What's even more painful is that this same use of craftiness is in the very example you have been clutching onto this whole time as something Shenmue 3 needs to aspire to be more like...The Karate Kid reboot (!)

Ryo doesn't exhibit craftiness, he learns a magic move. If you know the magic counter-move, you can beat that opponent if not, no matter how much you train, you cannot according to S3. This is not done to demonstrate Ryo's craftiness and it sounds like you're just trying to blindly defend the game to paint it in a favorable light. This is not how martial arts is portrayed in S1 or 2. S3 is about Ryo learning those moves to beat those opponents; Karate Kid isn't about Jaden Smith learning that magic move to beat the bully--he actually is being crafty in that scene.

Apologies for writing a thesis compared to your short post, the generous amounts of sass used, and for Reverse Body Checking your arguments into oblivion.

Ahuh.

 

[Mr Sun]

I'm sure there are those who try to do anything to make S3 sound bad but that's not what I'm doing. You're not comparing apples to apples in this instance because you're shifting the discussion between two points: how S1 and 2 handle Ryo learning moves and how they handle Ryo training. The two moves that Ryo learns in S3 are not comparable to moves that Ryo learns in S1 and 2 because Ryo learns several moves in those games, they're explained the way they are because they have to correspond to the controller inputs since, unlike S3, they can be used at will during combat, and can you imagine how annoying it would be if everyone who taught you a move in S1 and 2 made you jump through the hoops that Sun and Bei do?

So what learning the move from Sun resembles most is Xiuying's training--Xiuying similarly sizes Ryo up, makes him jump through hoops, and is careful to only give Ryo what he wants when he proves himself. If your only point is to say that the gameplay taken in complete isolation is more or less the same (ie: doing QTEs to air out books, press a button to catch a leaf etc.) then I agree, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm mainly concerned with Shenmue from a storytelling perspective because imo that's where the series really excels, and if you look at the storytelling difference between Xiuying's training and Sun's training then, well, that's the difference right there.

I will say that part of what I disliked about the fact that learning moves was so pivotal to S3 (apart from how it butchers the portrayal of martial arts by implying the existence of magic counter moves) is that they took something that was a relatively simple task in S1 and 2 and hinged most of the plot on it. Learning a move is so anticlimactic when it's given "main quest" status imo.


That's not how he learns JIE. Like all four wude, he learns it from a master; the only reason he needs to smash the rock is because the street performer makes him. Anyone can learn any/all of the four wude by simply having them explained to them, S2 adopts the "show, don't tell" model of storytelling, which I happen to think is very effective.


Because, for me at least, frustration is the only feeling S3 was able to elicit from me (and disappointment).


You have this completely backward; Ryo's goals are what matter (because that's what keeps him on the same page as the player). In S2 he needs to find Lishao Tao and Yuanda Zhu; there is no ticking clock to either objective. If he found out that Yuanda Zhu was kidnapped by the CYM and Xiuying knew where he was, then it would indeed suffer from the same problems as S3. The bad guys pursuing the mirrors are an existential threat and, at this point in the story, it's established that they either don't know that there are two mirrors, or that Iwao had both of them, so Ryo is relatively safe from that threat.


All opinions are subjective. I don't think frustration is a very difficult emotion to incite from a player so I don't give a ton of credit no matter how "intentional" it is. Plus there are crazy mixed messages about these paywalls: are they supposed to be frustrating or not? People keep saying they're not frustrating (implying that if they were frustrating, that would be bad) because S3 is meant to be played slowly and you should have plenty of money but then others like you say it's supposed to be frustrating and that's a good thing. I think it's supposed to be frustrating and it's bad.


Then he's not learning anything is he?


What lateral thinking? Ryo needs a lot of money so he... earns a lot of money? Would Sun have still trained him if he simply stole the wine?


Ryo doesn't exhibit craftiness, he learns a magic move. If you know the magic counter-move, you can beat that opponent if not, no matter how much you train, you cannot according to S3. This is not done to demonstrate Ryo's craftiness and it sounds like you're just trying to blindly defend the game to paint it in a favorable light. This is not how martial arts is portrayed in S1 or 2. S3 is about Ryo learning those moves to beat those opponents; Karate Kid isn't about Jaden Smith learning that magic move to beat the bully--he actually is being crafty in that scene.



Ahuh.

Speaking personally, the Sun sequence is my second favourite “teaching/learning a move” sequence in the series. You and I have discussed it a bit, and I wrote a lengthier post about how it deals with Ryo’s impatience issues at this point in the story, as well as dealing with the value of patience itself.

Leaving aside the Wine issue for a sec, I like how Sun parcels out the Chicken catching, not explaining up front the point of it to allow Ryo to figure out on his own the value of it (which I absolutely love) - and also of course by not explaining this weird activity it's a further test of patience for Ryo. By not running Ryo into the ground all day every day with the chickens, stopping the sessions short and making him wait till the next day is part of getting Ryo to this point of appreciation, and making him realise that he can’t rush through body check on the spot (whilst making sure not to wreck his body in the process).

And the game evinces a clear progression, from Ryo confused and screwing up his face in frustration in the early stages, to telling Shenhua how he is figuring out what the chicken sessions are doing for him, finally reaching a greater acceptance/appreciation toward the end, Sun: “You know what I want?” Ryo: “10 Chickens coming right up!”. So yes Sun also waits for Ryo to be ready, and decides when he is (with dialogue to that effect).

I’m not a huge fan of either paywalls, particularly the £5000, but the £2000 worked ok for me. I disagree that it was meant to be *frustrating* for the player, but it’s designed (imperfectly) into pushing you toward a “craftier” method of earning money than chopping wood all day. And I think the methods it pushes you toward could be described as “crafty”, but I’ve been through that before. That it clearly *is* frustrating for some players, and that you *can* just do 30 wood sessions in a row if you want, means that it is somewhat less than ideal, design wise. So again I’m a little bit neutral on it. But you can take it out entirely and the Sun stuff still works really well for me.

On the Sun stuff not being done exactly in the way that 1 and 2 did it: that’s *technically* true but I thought it worked well, and the game *should* be creating new contexts and challenges within which Ryo learns new moves. (The CEA arc with Xiuying was new for S2, whether it was closer to the “traditional” way or not.)

Ryo is impatient and desperate to learn *something* that can defeat Yanlang after successive defeats, and needing to save Yanxin. He figures out on his own that the body check might do it (also like) and the story proceeds from there. The context is that the body check is the move Ryo hones in on because he otherwise appears to be out of options entirely, and has experienced the power of the move himself (been on the receiving end). This is a new context, but one I like. If we ignore the story context for S2, we could say that Ryo just performs CEA with an input and “magically” beats Dou Niou in a single move, which would be a total BS description of that arc (we would agree that it’s the best learning arc in the entire series however).

I appreciate your dislike of the wine issue, which is legit, and that the game doing something similar but sloppier in the second half (though there’s some stuff I like about it) doesn’t help.

Finally we are also shown a clear progression in the fights themselves. Ryo is wide eyed and scrambling in the first defeat, then patiently dodging Yanlang’s attacks and waiting for the opening in the final fight. Ryo calmly watches the last blow fly over his head in slow motion, and also now has the requisite movement speed: all learned from Sun.

 

[GhostTrick]

Just like any data, polls or statistics, you can make it tell kinda whatever you'd like to, depending on the angle you try to take, the point you're trying to make and in what end you're using it. The problem with Reddit polls is that you cannot put more than 6 options for a poll, so I couldn't isolate each grade to have then a very precise data. Which makes you're average score of 5.7 weird, I wonder how you calculated it?

When I made this poll, it was not too long after the SEW video, to see how people felt months after release and if they were on par with SEW feelings. I guess a poll like this might be interesting to make again in a year or two, once people will be "less hot" about Shenmue 3, who's still pretty recent.

But this poll on Reddit, even though incomplete, showed that most player received the game in a more favorable way than SEW, and is, in that way closer to the general consensus from players.

Also from the websites I check out in France :

jeuxvideo.com : 10/20 from the journalist, 15.8/20 from players

Gamekult.com 5/10 from the journalist, 7.7/10 from players.

Which is the same consensus there is on Metacritic PS4, the Metacritic for PC is 6.6/10 (knowing that a lot of bad grades come from EGS haters).

So it's fair to believe that this poll is also closer to other data we have, and that the average grade is between 6.5 to 7.5

If you check Senscritique, which was less likely to be tampered with, you'll see an average of 6.2 for 167 reviews.

To me it's closer to the 6 than the 7.

While every games can be divisive, while I understand that the fanbase has different opinions on the games... It's also obvious that Shenmue III even among fan ratings is scoring lower than I or II and by a good 1 to 2 points lower.

 

[Mr Sun]

If you check Senscritique, which was less likely to be tampered with, you'll see an average of 6.2 for 167 reviews.

To me it's closer to the 6 than the 7.

While every games can be divisive, while I understand that the fanbase has different opinions on the games... It's also obvious that Shenmue III even among fan ratings is scoring lower than I or II and by a good 1 to 2 points lower.

I’d certainly have S3 a point lower than 1, and 2 points lower than 2, and I say that as a fan of 3.

I’d have it as an 8, maybe 8.5 on a very good day. For me, you can make a good case to score the game lower than that, but I think a harder case to score the game higher.

(That said I enjoy quite a few elements in 3 over 1, so it’s weird, but that’s how I’d score it.)

 

[GhostTrick]

I’d certainly have S3 a point lower than 1, and 2 points lower than 2, and I say that as a fan of 3.

I’d have it as an 8, maybe 8.5 on a very good day. For me, you can make a good case to score the game lower than that, but I think a harder case to score the game higher.

(That said I enjoy quite a few elements in 3 over 1, so it’s weird, but that’s how I’d score it.)

Then again, everyone's "score" is personnal. I wont jump on someone telling me "Shenmue III was the best thing ever in my life, period". But as a whole, there's a visible trend when it comes to scores that puts, as a whole, Shenmue I and II in the high 8s and III in the low 6s.

On topic as a whole, no, it didn't ruin the serie as its not over. It did for some people, in my case, I feel less excited by the prospect of another episode. But for some people, it did reinvigorated their appetite for more Shenmue. It's not a clear case either.

 

[Mr Sun]

Then again, everyone's "score" is personnal. I wont jump on someone telling me "Shenmue III was the best thing ever in my life, period". But as a whole, there's a visible trend when it comes to scores that puts, as a whole, Shenmue I and II in the high 8s and III in the low 6s.

On topic as a whole, no, it didn't ruin the serie as its not over. It did for some people, in my case, I feel less excited by the prospect of another episode. But for some people, it did reinvigorated their appetite for more Shenmue. It's not a clear case either.

TBH I'm with Tomboz and Rydeen with not really finding a great deal of value in the user scores that have been discussed in this thread, in part because of incomplete data, but also the review bombing issues (I know Tomboz was only responding to someone else's interpretation of data, and that he didn't raise it himself).

A reasonable *guess* for me would be a fan average between 6-8 for 3, but I don't want to get more specific than that without much better/more reliable data.

If you go off the critic score, it's 69 on PC, and the PS4 got a 3/10 posted twice, so I think that should be a 68 or 69. So I think it's fair to say that it got about a 7/10 from critics then. The originals were both 88 I think, or around that? Let's say they averaged a 9/10 from critics.

Honestly I think all 3 Shenmue games are *slightly* underrated critcally (S2 should have had an average over 90% on metacritic) but there we are.

 

[Sergeynest]

I believe I never gave a Score for Shenmue 3 except in my review video on my channel where at the end I said it was 10 out of 10 because it was the game that revived my favourite video game series of all times; but if I had to give it the score that I really believe the game really deserves it would be a 7.5 wich makes it 1.5 & 2 points below the first two games being in my opinion Shenmue 1 a 9.0 and Shenmue 2 a 9.5.
In my point of view Shenmue 3 is only weaker in three aspects; the fighting specially because of the lack of throw moves, the story telling and the character development of its side characters.
In terms of atmosphere the three games are on par with each other and I only prefer Shenmue 3 slightly more because of my personal taste in terms of its locations.
Where I do think Shenmue 3 exels over the first two is in the side activities wich adds much more variety to the series even in the martial arts training department.
Another point is that in Shenmue 3 everything is now connected by the economic system wich makes the world feel more organic where everything as now a meaning and a purpose.
The only downside in my point of view is that it is unbalanced to the point that we can clearly see that it was purposly made this way to elongate the gameplay time and the same goes to the stamina system as well.
Having Shenmue 3 had better story telling, a complete fighting system and development of its side characters, then I believe it could have been on par with the rest of the series.

It is my personal belief that Yu Suzuki and the team didnt finish the game as they wanted to and were forced by the publisher to release the game making them rush the second part of the game where they made the best they could to at least keep it clean but not shiny.
This can be clearly seen if we compare the story telling and character development in Bailu with Niaowu.
In my opinion Bailu is on par with the rest of the series and Niaowu unfortunately is one that falls short.

 

[WuyingRen]

TBH I'm with Tomboz and Rydeen with not really finding a great deal of value in the user scores that have been discussed in this thread, in part because of incomplete data, but also the review bombing issues (I know Tomboz was only responding to someone else's interpretation of data, and that he didn't raise it himself).

A reasonable *guess* for me would be a fan average between 6-8 for 3, but I don't want to get more specific than that without much better/more reliable data.

If you go off the critic score, it's 69 on PC, and the PS4 got a 3/10 posted twice, so I think that should be a 68 or 69. So I think it's fair to say that it got about a 7/10 from critics then. The originals were both 88 I think, or around that? Let's say they averaged a 9/10 from critics.

Honestly I think all 3 Shenmue games are *slightly* underrated critcally (S2 should have had an average over 90% on metacritic) but there we are.

It’s very difficult to take too much away from any kind of ratings really, critic or player based.

I sometimes wonder whether fans might actually have a tendency to rate the game lower than everybody else because of their expectations for the game.

I didn’t see too many of the reviews (negative or otherwise) criticizing the story of the game, whilst that seems to be one of the biggest complaints from the fan base. Likewise, the combat system seemed to get off pretty lightly in critic reviews too whereas many fans have pinned it to the wall.

On the other hand, fans of the series are probably a bit more tolerant of the game’s slow pacing and the paywalls (as fans of the series will have likely already been engaging with the game’s money making systems), so perhaps there are some areas where we are a bit more forgiving.

It could certainly be argued that these differences in the way that the game is received go some way to cancelling each other out, but that line of thinking would be near impossible to prove.

Ultimately, for whatever reasons, fans, gamers and critics seem to be in agreement that the third game does not live up to the high standards set by the first two games and this is seemingly backed up by sales figures.

Whether or not Shenmue 3 ‘hurt’ the series is something of a multifaceted question though. In some ways we could answer yes, as perception of the series as a whole has likely been damaged by Shenmue 3’s failure to deliver; both in terms of sales and critical praise. In others, we could look back at where the series was before Shenmue 3 and point out that we’re now in a much better place.

Personally, I find myself breaking it down one step further and looking at Shenmue 3 as a concept and Shenmue 3 as a released product.

As a concept, Shenmue 3 brought the series back from the dead whilst also setting the events in motion that will lead to us getting Shenmue: The animation. Perhaps most importantly, people are talking about the series again and have been for the past five years. As a concept, Shenmue 3 undoubtedly helped the series.

As a product, I do think that the game has hurt the series. If I think back to where we were just prior to its launch (and bearing in mind that the deal for the anime was more or less agreed at this time), there’s not a doubt in my mind that the series was in a stronger position then than it is now. This isn’t to say that I think the series is dead or anything though (far from it).

 

[Mr Sun]

It’s very difficult to take too much away from any kind of ratings really, critic or player based.

I sometimes wonder whether fans might actually have a tendency to rate the game lower than everybody else because of their expectations for the game.

I didn’t see too many of the reviews (negative or otherwise) criticizing the story of the game, whilst that seems to be one of the biggest complaints from the fan base. Likewise, the combat system seemed to get off pretty lightly in critic reviews too whereas many fans have pinned it to the wall.

On the other hand, fans of the series are probably a bit more tolerant of the game’s slow pacing and the paywalls (as fans of the series will have likely already been engaging with the game’s money making systems), so perhaps there are some areas where we are a bit more forgiving.

It could certainly be argued that these differences in the way that the game is received go some way to cancelling each other out, but that line of thinking would be near impossible to prove.

Ultimately, for whatever reasons, fans, gamers and critics seem to be in agreement that the third game does not live up to the high standards set by the first two games and this is seemingly backed up by sales figures.

Whether or not Shenmue 3 ‘hurt’ the series is something of a multifaceted question though. In some ways we could answer yes, as perception of the series as a whole has likely been damaged by Shenmue 3’s failure to deliver; both in terms of sales and critical praise. In others, we could look back at where the series was before Shenmue 3 and point out that we’re now in a much better place.

Personally, I find myself breaking it down one step further and looking at Shenmue 3 as a concept and Shenmue 3 as a released product.

As a concept, Shenmue 3 brought the series back from the dead whilst also setting the events in motion that will lead to us getting Shenmue: The animation. Perhaps most importantly, people are talking about the series again and have been for the past five years. As a concept, Shenmue 3 undoubtedly helped the series.

As a product, I do think that the game has hurt the series. If I think back to where we were just prior to its launch (and bearing in mind that the deal for the anime was more or less agreed at this time), there’s not a doubt in my mind that the series was in a stronger position then than it is now. This isn’t to say that I think the series is dead or anything though (far from it).

Agree with a lot of this. I like that you specifically used the phrase "high standards" - based on the standards of 1 and 2, a new Shenmue game has to do so so much.

The minutiae of the world building, all of the story and character work, cutscenes and set pieces/QTE's. Free battle - the Shenmue VF system maybe being the deepest fight system we've ever seen in an "open world rpg". Thousands upon thousands of lines of dialogue spread across hundreds of unique characters, many of whom you never have to talk to, with dialogue evolving over the course of the game (not to mention dual languages and translation.) A unique piece of music for *every* single area and *every* single interior. A world designed in such a way that you can physically pick up and discover 3D items/objects, use light switches and phones. Mini games, jobs and arcades. "Hidden" story scenes and side activities. Magic weather. It's kind of nuts

 

[Sergeynest]

I believe I never gave a Score for Shenmue 3 except in my review video on my channel where at the end I said it was 10 out of 10 because it was the game that revived my favourite video game series of all times; but if I had to give it the score that I really believe the game really deserves it would be a 7.5 wich makes it 1.5 & 2 points below the first two games being in my opinion Shenmue 1 a 9.0 and Shenmue 2 a 9.5.
In my point of view Shenmue 3 is only weaker in three aspects; the fighting specially because of the lack of throw moves, the story telling and the character development of its side characters.
In terms of atmosphere the three games are on par with each other and I only prefer Shenmue 3 slightly more because of my personal taste in terms of its locations.
Where I do think Shenmue 3 exels over the first two is in the side activities wich adds much more variety to the series even in the martial arts training department.
Another point is that in Shenmue 3 everything is now connected by the economic system wich makes the world feel more organic where everything as now a meaning and a purpose.
The only downside in my point of view is that it is unbalanced to the point that we can clearly see that it was purposly made this way to elongate the gameplay time and the same goes to the stamina system as well.
Having Shenmue 3 had better story telling, a complete fighting system and development of its side characters, then I believe it could have been on par with the rest of the series.

It is my personal belief that Yu Suzuki and the team didnt finish the game as they wanted to and were forced by the publisher to release the game making them rush the second part of the game where they made the best they could to at least keep it clean but not shiny.
This can be clearly seen if we compare the story telling and character development in Bailu with Niaowu.
In my opinion Bailu is on par with the rest of the series and Niaowu unfortunately is one that falls short.

As for the DLC'S in my opinion it as also its highs and lows. The battle rally DLC is a fun and interesting concept that can pave the way for other interesting side content to be added in remaining games the series. It brought me memories of that Sega Dreamcast Arcade feeling.
I would love to see a Shenmue fighting game with all its main characters in a future game of the series.
As for the story quest dlc I though it was average and I would have prefered if they had used those resources in a more complete story quest line for the Red Snakes in Niaowu and to flesh out a little bit more of Niao Sun's character.
As for the Big Merry cruise I rather enjoyed it because it reminded of those silly anime moments we see in some series; but it also could have been much better and could have proven to be the best fan service they could have given us to invest in a DLC and that would have been the long awaited Boat Chapter with a proper fight with Chai like in Shenmue 1 closing the deal once and for all it could have even been easily implemented with the rest of the Big Merry Cruise DLC. In my point of view it could have been a really good oportunity to give fans something that they had been longing for so much time and who knows maybe it could have emended some of the negative points in the eyes of some of the most disapointed fans.

 

[WuyingRen]

Agree with a lot of this. I like that you specifically used the phrase "high standards" - based on the standards of 1 and 2, a new Shenmue game has to do so so much.

The minutiae of the world building, all of the story and character work, cutscenes and set pieces/QTE's. Free battle - the Shenmue VF system maybe being the deepest fight system we've ever seen in an "open world rpg". Thousands upon thousands of lines of dialogue spread across hundreds of unique characters, many of whom you never have to talk to, with dialogue evolving over the course of the game (not to mention dual languages and translation.) A unique piece of music for *every* single area and *every* single interior. A world designed in such a way that you can physically pick up and discover 3D items/objects, use light switches and phones. Mini games, jobs and arcades. "Hidden" story scenes and side activities. Magic weather. It's kind of nuts

Add to that the high-standards set by other modern games, which when priced the same are obviously going to draw comparisons. Fans of the series might make allowances given the circumstances surrounding development, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect the average gamer to do the same.

If the goal is to appeal to a wider audience, Shenmue 3 was some way off the pace in many regards. The more I think about it, the more I can appreciate why Yu and Cedric are seeking a larger budget for a fourth game.

 

[murdiaries]

Shenmue 3 were a product for fans with weights and obligations to KS, and yeah it did suffer from wanting to be a bigger game than devs could afford to stay on budget.

Halfway with development scissors started going wild, part of game have been removed and the rest has been inflated excessively, this is where the ugly happened including (I bet) story being repeated to beat the same guy over and over with the paywall caveat.

SM3 is an avarage game (good parts in Bailu are even out in Niaowu), but it lacks any appeal for newcomers and fans expecting SM2 quality.

That's why YSnet want to secure an higher budget and make a new game to appeal a wider audience than nostalgic (and less demanding) fans.

 

[Mr Sun]

Add to that the high-standards set by other modern games, which when priced the same are obviously going to draw comparisons. Fans of the series might make allowances given the circumstances surrounding development, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect the average gamer to do the same.

If the goal is to appeal to a wider audience, Shenmue 3 was some way off the pace in many regards. The more I think about it, the more I can appreciate why Yu and Cedric are seeking a larger budget for a fourth game.

I think there was a hope that it *might* be able to appeal to a wider audience if they could secure enough funding during development, (with the starting point being “for the fans”), but personally I always thought that was unlikely without a bigger team/budget from the start.

 

[Guy-ManAfterAll]

If you check Senscritique, which was less likely to be tampered with, you'll see an average of 6.2 for 167 reviews.

To me it's closer to the 6 than the 7.

While every games can be divisive, while I understand that the fanbase has different opinions on the games... It's also obvious that Shenmue III even among fan ratings is scoring lower than I or II and by a good 1 to 2 points lower.

Yep, I quoted Senscritique afterwards to give a broader point of view from players. But like I said, it is also worth noting that players who rate games on Senscritique are pretty severe.

For example taking Shenmue 2 and Shenmue 3 players scores :

Shenmue 2 :
Jvcom : 19,4/20 = 9.7/10
Gamekult : 9.1/10
Sensecritique 8,5/10

So, Sensecritique is 0,6 points lower than GK and 1,2 points lower than JVC concerning Shenmue 2

Shenmue 3 :
Jvcom : 16/20 = 8/10
Gamekult : 7,7/10
Sensecritique = 6,2/10

Sensecritique is 1,5 points lower than GK and 1,8 points lower than jvcom. So, we can see that generally speaking, Senscritique rates game lower than any other places. The best rated game on senscritique is Zelda Breath of the Wild with a score of 8.8/10, which is 0.9 points lower than Shenmue 2 on jvc for example (which isn't the highest graded game there)

And comparatively Shenmue 3 is 1,4 lower than Shenmue 2 on GK, 1,7 points lower on JVC and 2,3 points lower on SC

Liked I said on another post : grades aren't absolute, because the grading system is quite different from one place to another. But it's a really good way to see a trend. And this way we can see the following trend : Shenmue 3 is not as well received as Shenmue 2 (and as Shenmue 1). It can be even pretty lower from some places to another.

So with all the data we have, Shenmue is generally perceived as above average to good, but not close to be as good as the previous ones.

To answer the question "Did Shenmue 3 hurt the series?"

Yes, it did. Was it a fatal wound? Absolutely not.The future of the series and Shenmue 4 is still very hopeful, and we've had the chance to see Shenmue come back in the world. We've had Shenmue 1&2 HD, SEGA talks about Shenmue again, people talk about Shenmue again (and not in the "if only they could release Shenmue 3" kind of way, real talk now), the soundtrack of 2 is getting released, we have goodies and merchandising that we didn't have for so long and we have an Anime to look forward to. So while it did hurt the series, it brang also alot of positive too. I just wish more people would be positive about all that, even tho the game is not as great as expected.

 

[Sergeynest]

Add to that the high-standards set by other modern games, which when priced the same are obviously going to draw comparisons. Fans of the series might make allowances given the circumstances surrounding development, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect the average gamer to do the same.

If the goal is to appeal to a wider audience, Shenmue 3 was some way off the pace in many regards. The more I think about it, the more I can appreciate why Yu and Cedric are seeking a larger budget for a fourth game.

Seeking a larger budget is always fine but it can prove to be a dificult road as well trying to appeal to a wider audience wich as nothing wrong all the same; but given the fact that the Shenmue series is based on a story driven sequel of games can yet again prove to be very dificult as well.
It is always easier to attract an new audience with a new IP rather than with a game with severall sequels.
If Ys Net haven't yet secured a deal with either Deep Silver, Sony or even Epic Games for Shenmue IV then that road willl very bumpy indeed.
I believe that the newer audience that will be willing to invest in the Shenmue series is one more keen to play new games with a retro style of gameplay and one that will fall in love with Shenmue for the same reasons we did all those years back then.
Creating a gameplay style that comes closer to todays video game standarts is fine but i do not believe it to be the deciding factor.
I really hope that this new anime series helps out to bring the Shenmue series to wider and also younger audience of gamers that are starting to become fed up with the generalized gameplay style that as become standart in todays video game industry.
Trying to make Shenmue IV a triple AAA title will be almost impossible and even if Cedric and Yu Suzuki manage a budget that will allow them to do so I seriously doubt that Shenmue IV will prove to be profitable enough for another future investment.
I rather prefer Shenmue IV to remain as an indie title and that Yu Suzuki and YsNet manage to reuse the resources that they have already created in Shenmue 3 and use them smartly on Shenmue IV with the rest of the budget that they manage to aquire in Improvements to the gameplay, story telling and character development.

 

[WuyingRen]

I think there was a hope that it *might* be able to appeal to a wider audience if they could secure enough funding during development, (with the starting point being “for the fans”), but personally I always thought that was unlikely without a bigger team/budget from the start.

Whilst I think pleasing the fans was Yu’s primary aim, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t also working towards drawing in new fans, especially as the future of the series seems somewhat dependent on them doing so. Unfortunately, I really do think that it would take a complete overhaul of the series to achieve mainstream success to the point where it most likely wouldn’t resemble a Shenmue anymore. The anime might make the series a bit more accessible, but at this point I can’t see a future ‘Shenmue’ game selling well enough to justify a $30m-$40m. I’d love to be wrong.

In addition, Deep Silver seem to have invested around $10m into Shenmue 3 and so I think we can reasonably assume that they certainly expected the game to be able to appeal to a broader audience - especially considering most of the fan base had already secured their copies of the game through Kickstarter. That they came out and referred to the series as niche post release almost felt like an admission that they’d been wrong in that regard.

 

[spud1897]

Whilst I think pleasing the fans was Yu’s primary aim, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t also working towards drawing in new fans, especially as the future of the series seems somewhat dependent on them doing so. Unfortunately, I really do think that it would take a complete overhaul of the series to achieve mainstream success to the point where it most likely wouldn’t resemble a Shenmue anymore. The anime might make the series a bit more accessible, but at this point I can’t see a future ‘Shenmue’ game selling well enough to justify a $30m-$40m. I’d love to be wrong.

In addition, Deep Silver seem to have invested around $10m into Shenmue 3 and so I think we can reasonably assume that they certainly expected the game to be able to appeal to a broader audience - especially considering most of the fan base had already secured their copies of the game through Kickstarter. That they came out and referred to the series as niche post release almost felt like an admission that they’d been wrong in that regard.

The question there is what they may have been basing that assumption on? I know Shenmue 1 did well on the DC in terms of sales. Shenmue II suffered due to the DC and the Xbox taking it over.

I assume the re-releases did fairly well but not close to a million sales and it came out after they came on board.

Unless they thought the kickstarter hype would carry it over?

 

[Mr Sun]

Whilst I think pleasing the fans was Yu’s primary aim, I’d be surprised if he wasn’t also working towards drawing in new fans, especially as the future of the series seems somewhat dependent on them doing so. Unfortunately, I really do think that it would take a complete overhaul of the series to achieve mainstream success to the point where it most likely wouldn’t resemble a Shenmue anymore. The anime might make the series a bit more accessible, but at this point I can’t see a future ‘Shenmue’ game selling well enough to justify a $30m-$40m. I’d love to be wrong.

In addition, Deep Silver seem to have invested around $10m into Shenmue 3 and so I think we can reasonably assume that they certainly expected the game to be able to appeal to a broader audience - especially considering most of the fan base had already secured their copies of the game through Kickstarter. That they came out and referred to the series as niche post release almost felt like an admission that they’d been wrong in that regard.

You may well be right on all points, which is somewhat depressing to consider. I do remember Yu also saying not too long ago that he wanted YS Net to be able to turn a profit “next time” too.

If S3 really was $20m for development in the end then yes, $30m would probably be the minimum for a bigger budget sequel.

 

[Sergeynest]

You may well be right on all points, which is somewhat depressing to consider. I do remember Yu also saying not too long ago that he wanted YS Net to be able to turn a profit “next time” too.

If S3 really was $20m for development in the end then yes, $30m would probably be the minimum for a bigger budget sequel.

It may be true but I don't consider that Shenmue 3 may have cost $20m and surely not $30m for that with the technology available today for gaming development Shenmue 3 had to be the complete package or at least Niaowu should have had the same quality as Bailu village.