General Impressions

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I found the three baddies to be bad writing because they introduced three new characters at the very end of the game with no build up and no consequence. We already had Ryo beating up Mr Muscles and countless goons (including the weirdly out of place Kickstarter Backers, another problem I had). There really didn't seem any reason to have those three at the end. If anything it just had me thinking 'why are these guys here?' rather than being interested in them. I can only think that Suzuki intended for them to have a much bigger role that was scrapped due to time and money constraints.
I do think you have a valid point about Ryo beating them being a way to show his power level increasing, but I also think it could and should have been implemented better or scrapped entirely.

The difference between what you mentioned and pawn shop is that the pawn shop really kills the momentum and immersion. You're forced to stop the story progress and do a really slow and dull fetch quest with no consequence or bearing on the story. Not to mention the immersion killing of being told how dangerous and abandoned this place is, and then finding a shop immediately?

If it were a shop that was hidden away like an easter-egg to find then that would be different.

As Nathan wrote, that's not bad writing.

We don't know who they are or their purpose; if they were built up to be 3 masters or someone indeed of consequence, then the only time we interact are QTEs, I get where you're coming from 100%.

But that doesn't = bad writing; has nothing to do with the writing.

The pawnshop has also 0 to do with plot or writing; its IMPLEMENTATION may be a bit poor, but that has 0 to do with plot or writing; that's a gameplay thing.

 

[Joka]

As Nathan wrote, that's not bad writing.

We don't know who they are or their purpose; if they were built up to be 3 masters or someone indeed of consequence, then the only time we interact are QTEs, I get where you're coming from 100%.

But that doesn't = bad writing; has nothing to do with the writing.

The pawnshop has also 0 to do with plot or writing; its IMPLEMENTATION may be a bit poor, but that has 0 to do with plot or writing; that's a gameplay thing.

It's not bad writing or plot per se but this is where the gameplay and story go hand in hand...
The pawnshop quest mechanic impacts the momentum of the story especially at it builds with waiting a day to cross and then the cut scene with the squad arriving... so it's implementation isn't great as you say but that affects the story.

 

[bellator]

I would like to write a detailed in depth review of this game later on if I have the time, but here’s my summarized two cents:

First, I would divide the review in two different components:

1 - Game
2 - Story

1 – Game

For a game with a limited budget they did a Fantastic job in capturing the Shenmue charm.
The game looks, breaths and feels like Shenmue.
Environments (locations) were beautiful, plenty of mini-games, arcade games, side quests and people to interact with. Addition of many side quests, even if very simple ones (such as talk to this and that person) was the cherry on top of the cake.
Many sub teams within the overall development team did a fantastic job in creating this word and allowing us to play in it as Ryo Hazuki once more.
Graphics look fine to me. I played Shenmue 3 immediately after playing Red Dead redemption 2 and was still impressed.
Many people have criticized the combat system but I thought it was actually well thought and executed and really enjoyed improving my kung fu skills in sparring, training and combat. Also having to earn money to acquire new skill books was also something I appreciated.
I took my time in exploring the world before proceeding with the main story and I think that is why I enjoyed this experience as a GAME so much.
I got to immerse myself again in the Shenmue world and felt like the 17 year old kid that never got to enjoy the game back in the early 2000’s.
For that alone this experience was well worth it.

2 – Story

It pains me deeply to write this as I have been a fan of the series for half of my life but the story itself that was presented to us in this installment absolutely sucks – before you read any further, yes I am going to vent my frustrations below.
I have been reading some negative comments about how fans are upset that the game just does not develop any of the story plots, and that they deserved more given the 18 years of waiting, but that is not even my main issue. I feel fine with the content that was presented/ what was left out.
My main issue is with the horrible writing / execution.
Finished the game yesterday with the castle infiltration mission and I still can’t get the bad taste of my mouth.
In my opinion, that was just atrocious – the inclusion of characters that were not even important enough for me to remember their names, the unnecessary and unwelcomed comedy included between what should have been dramatic scenes, the whole “why the fuck is this even happening here and why is Lan Di even here situation”.
How hard is it to include context? You only had the whole game to do it considering it was leading up to this…
The cheesiness of thinking that this is/was the chi you men headquarters and their guards can be defeated by a girl with a broom and also the body guards of Lan di can be defeated by Ren easily makes you think that everything that has happened in Shenmue 1 and 2 is unnecessary.
All you need is a fucking broom and a fat man and you can charge into the headquartes of the powerful, yet very “dangerous” Chinese mafia.
Bad dialogue, no sense of edition (and I am not referring to the constant loading screens – I grew accustomed to that), bad choice of music and completely anti climatic ending.
I would feel embarrassed to show this to someone and call myself a Shenmue fan.

Then looking at things into perspective and analyzing the story of this game as a whole it doesn’t get much better. The game forces you to lose two times (even though I clearly beat both of them during the free battle) to go on a quest to learn 2 equal moves to defeat what is basically the same guys.
You find Shenhua’s father Yuan (should you even be looking for him considering his letter at the end of Shenmue 2?) and you lose the phoenix mirror to Niao Sun (BTW the only good story related inclusion – it really shows what could have been achieved only with better direction).
That’s it. Nothing else is memorable.

What disappoints me most is that they failed where it should have been the easiest. They delivered a great GAME with low budget, clearly due to the effort and countless hours of hard work of many people but failed in delivering a good story, where only good writing, creativity and art direction was required.

I am still a Shenmue fan and will continue to support Shenmue.
If somehow they acknowledge that this aspect will be improved going forward I will also support a future Kickstarter for Shenmue IV if there is one.

I suppose I will start to look of the bright side of things again and focused on the positives as some time goes by, but right now, I don’t think things are looking too bright for a Shenmue IV to ever happen. If a Kickstarter is needed to fund the project, I predict we won’t even get half what was accomplished for making this sequel.

 

[24Nathan]

the inclusion of characters that were not even important enough for me to remember their names

So NPCs should just not exist without an extremely detailed background? I assume you can all 1100+ NPCs of Shenmue I & II then, and why you care about them?

the unnecessary and unwelcomed comedy included between what should have been dramatic scenes

To each their own, I was indifferent, but it shows that there are these things called opinions.

The cheesiness of thinking that this is/was the chi you men headquarters

It's not. It's simply one of Niao Sun's bases, which Lan Di happens to be at. Tentei was the one who gave the direct order to retrieve both mirrors. Whether that was to the whole organization or just Lan Di, we don't know. But we do know that Lan Di has the Dragon Mirror, and by the time we see him fly off from the Yellow Head Building in Shenmue II, he presumably does not know where the Phoenix Mirror is. Hence why Zhu says he is heading to Bailu. But then we meet the Red Snakes in Bailu, and not Lan Di. My theory is, this area being Niao Sun's, he just figures he will let her branch take charge for now and he is in a holding pattern until further orders come in or something from above...hence him waiting in Niaowu, a short bit away from Bailu, which is where he was presumably headed at the end of Shenmue II. Yanlang says that he is part of the Red Snakes, and they were more or less forced to look for the stonemasons and Phoenix Mirror...Niao Sun's doing. Hence why we see Li Feng in the Red Snakes' hideout before the Old Castle saying that it is her territory, and why Ge, the leader, is at the top of the stairs waiting to stop Ryo and Ren.

and their guards can be defeated by a girl with a broom and also the body guards of Lan di can be defeated by Ren easily makes you think that everything that has happened in Shenmue 1 and 2 is unnecessary.All you need is a fucking broom and a fat man and you can charge into the headquartes of the powerful, yet very “dangerous” Chinese mafia.

I fully agree with you about Shiling. She had no place to be there. But Bei's student, the fat guy, is a trained martial artist, and the only one in town at that point who was strong enough to stand up to the Red Snakes. I have no problem with him being there.

Bad dialogue, no sense of edition (and I am not referring to the constant loading screens – I grew accustomed to that), bad choice of music and completely anti climatic ending.
I would feel embarrassed to show this to someone and call myself a Shenmue fan.

Hyperbole aside, everything else is just an opinion. Doesn't make it more or less valid than someone who loved the ending. What do you mean by edition? Editing?

Then looking at things into perspective and analyzing the story of this game as a whole it doesn’t get much better. The game forces you to lose two times (even though I clearly beat both of them during the free battle) to go on a quest to learn 2 equal moves to defeat what is basically the same guys.

The Body Check and Reverse Body Check are two completely separate moves. I wish I could remember where the post was...but someone who either was a martial artist and/or could read the Japanese translations of them explained it a bit better than I am now. But they, while similar looking to the untrained eye, are different moves. Do you remember losing to Dou Niu the first time, by the way? You can easily defeat the Yellow Heads around him and fight him, but it blacks you out nonetheless...just like the Heavens. The only training Ryo receives between the fights with Dou Niu is from Kai with the Predictive Explosion. He also receives zero training between the end of II and losing to the thugs. It's not at all unrealistic. He's not outclassed, he just gets an overly muscular guy's punch to the head, being caught off guard. Unless you just want him to be invincible the entire time. Destroying everyone in his path with no training is much more realistic.

You find Shenhua’s father Yuan (should you even be looking for him considering his letter at the end of Shenmue 2?) and you lose the phoenix mirror to Niao Sun (BTW the only good story related inclusion – it really shows what could have been achieved only with better direction).
That’s it. Nothing else is memorable.

What disappoints me most is that they failed where it should have been the easiest. They delivered a great GAME with low budget, clearly due to the effort and countless hours of hard work of many people but failed in delivering a good story, where only good writing, creativity and art direction was required.

I am still a Shenmue fan and will continue to support Shenmue.
If somehow they acknowledge that this aspect will be improved going forward I will also support a future Kickstarter for Shenmue IV if there is one.

I suppose I will start to look of the bright side of things again and focused on the positives as some time goes by, but right now, I don’t think things are looking too bright for a Shenmue IV to ever happen. If a Kickstarter is needed to fund the project, I predict we won’t even get half what was accomplished for making this sequel.

What is amazing to me is how I have seen numerous people with grips about the game have a constructive dialogue around it, but the comments from everyone stating AS FACT that everything sucks seems to outnumber those healthy discussions. Since when did anyone's opinion become straight up fact?

 

[sheeponfire]

So NPCs should just not exist without an extremely detailed background? I assume you can all 1100+ NPCs of Shenmue I & II then, and why you care about them?

I think his point is that they are fast-tracked into key allies at the 11th hour of the game when, bar a few interactions, you don't really get much development with them. This is in stark contrast to the end of S2 when you're storming the Yellowhead Building with Ren and Wong and save Joy later on. Three key characters Ryo develops relationships with throughout the game, leading to an epic showdown with Dou Niu.

I see Bellator's post as pretty much a general summary of how many players feel: gameplay great, story lacking.

 

[24Nathan]

I think his point is that they are fast-tracked into key allies at the 11th hour of the game when, bar a few interactions, you don't really get much development with them. This is in stark contrast to the end of S2 when you're storming the Yellowhead Building with Ren and Wong and save Joy later on. Three key characters Ryo develops relationships with throughout the game, leading to an epic showdown with Dou Niu.

I see Bellator's post as pretty much a general summary of how many players feel: gameplay great, story lacking.

Story lacking is one thing, but "horrible", "embarrassment", and "atrocious" is another. You didn't like it? Fine. But good lord, enough with this epic hyperbole.

I agreed with the part about the other characters...but Ren was the only one actually with you. Fat guy, Shiling, and Bei were all behind and never made it to the top. They had as much involvement as Wong and Joy in the Yellow Head Building.

 

[bellator]

Story lacking is one thing, but "horrible", "embarrassment", and "atrocious" is another. You didn't like it? Fine. But good lord, enough with this epic hyperbole.

I agreed with the part about the other characters...but Ren was the only one actually with you. Fat guy, Shiling, and Bei were all behind and never made it to the top. They had as much involvement as Wong and Joy in the Yellow Head Building.

Yes i didnt like it and as i said i came here to vent a bit. Have been a member of this site and these foruns since their foundation. Did you enjoy the story? Are you satisfied with what was produced and corresponded to your expectations?

I apologize for my choice of adjectives but that is how strongly i feel for this series.

 

[spud1897]

Firstly it doesn't matter whether someone was here 5 mins or 15 years each view is valid.

If you didnt like it then you didnt like it but some of the terms used is overkill, majorly.

I personally think some of the upset is due to some, not all, having ridiculous expectations of what is an indie kickstarter project, on a limited budget, with a new team etc etc. It was never going to match the level of Shenmue II imo. I went into this thinking the game could easily be shocking and in the end I got a game that captures the essence of the first 2 games, warts and all.

Shenmue has always been about 2 things, great story and fantastic gameplay. They've achieved the gameplay through this game. You've mentioned it is easy to tell a good story, maybe when all the funds go into that. But that would then detract from the gameplay/wider world experience and you can bet any money you like people would be kicking off about there not being enough Shenmue charm if they went all in on linear story approach. YSNET was on a hiding to nothing with Shenmue III, they were never going to appease all of us and they went for one end of the spectrum, gameplay, over story, rightly or wrongly. That's plain for all to see.

I'm not glossing over the issues over the story/character development, though I felt Bailu was better in this area. However I do think that the core is in place for a fantastic Shenmue 4 that can have both of the things I've described above.

 

[24Nathan]

Yes i didnt like it and as i said i came here to vent a bit. Have been a member of this site and these foruns since their foundation. Did you enjoy the story? Are you satisfied with what was produced and corresponded to your expectations?

I apologize for my choice of adjectives but that is how strongly i feel for this series.

I enjoyed the story overall...did it go as far as I would've liked it to? No. Did I have a "...That's it?" response after the last scene? Absolutely. But I'm not going to pretend its the antichrist like some choose to. I did an analysis of the stories from all three games here: https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/i...have-we-learned-in-shenmue-i-ii-and-iii.2566/

It may not be what we wanted in terms of how far the story went, but it certainly answered the most questions as to any game of the series. We still have so many unanswered questions from the first two games, it's unreal. But I was never expecting the third title to wrap things up in a nice little bow.

 

[orient]

Having let the experience settle in my mind for a couple of weeks, my personal score would be around 7.5/10 -- good, but not quite great.

For me the main downsides were: the lack of character moments (outside of Shenhua), and the lack of fluidity and variety in combat.

The whole game feeds back into training and combat, so the fact that learning new moves doesn't add much strategy, and the tactics used in combat don't evolve much, is a big downside. It's still fun to knock the crap out of dudes, but there's no denying the general stiffness and sloppy hit detection.

The lack of character moments leads to a world that feels like you haven't really gotten to know anybody by the end, apart from Shenhua, which is a big shame for a Shenmue game.

There are a few more things I could nitpick, but they don't really affect my overall enjoyment of the game. The sloppy translation gets an honourable mention, but isn't overly detrimental.

As for the positives: literally everything else. I loved both locations. The look, the atmosphere, the side activities that encourage you to explore, the small amount of lore that is in the game, all of it's great. The general moment-to-moment gameplay is extremely enjoyable to me and feels like a genuine Shenmue game.

The greatest compliment I can give Shenmue III is that I miss walking around those places already and I can't wait to start NG+ once the DLC hits, and I rarely ever play games twice. I really only do it with my favourite games of all time.

 

[bellator]

Do you think there is any chance that the upcoming dlc will improve the infiltration mission or the finale? Or will it just add more gameplay?

 

[MadeMan]

As Nathan wrote, that's not bad writing.

We don't know who they are or their purpose; if they were built up to be 3 masters or someone indeed of consequence, then the only time we interact are QTEs, I get where you're coming from 100%.

But that doesn't = bad writing; has nothing to do with the writing.

The pawnshop has also 0 to do with plot or writing; its IMPLEMENTATION may be a bit poor, but that has 0 to do with plot or writing; that's a gameplay thing.

I can see we're not going to see eye to eye on this, but I maintain that yes, it is bad writing. That whole interaction with three martial artists at the end adds very little/nothing to the story or characters and could and should have been implemented better. I'm almost certain that they're part of something bigger that was cut from the game, but they felt the need to keep it in/didn't want to cut them out entirely due to personal attachment.
Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As for the Pawn Shop, I think Joka echoes my feelings below;

It's not bad writing or plot per se but this is where the gameplay and story go hand in hand...
The pawnshop quest mechanic impacts the momentum of the story especially at it builds with waiting a day to cross and then the cut scene with the squad arriving... so it's implementation isn't great as you say but that affects the story.

If they felt the need to implement a shop for gameplay reasons, they could have given it a much better inclusion story-wise. It's bizarre and momentum killing and inconsistent with everything else we've heard in the story to that point.
The castle is 'abandoned' and supposedly so hard to access you need to find people with personal boats to take you across as a favour, yet there's a pawn shop right there at the landing? And if that wasn't bad enough, the game/story forces you to go looking upstairs for three items in an empty room? I argue that's absolutely poor writing and poor game design.

 

[orient]

The castle is 'abandoned' and supposedly so hard to access you need to find people with personal boats to take you across as a favour, yet there's a pawn shop right there at the landing? And if that wasn't bad enough, the game/story forces you to go looking upstairs for three items in an empty room? I argue that's absolutely poor writing and poor game design.

It makes more sense when you consider a whole area was cut after Niaowu, and that this particular area just before the Old Castle was not supposed to be so close to the end of the game.

It seems to me like we were supposed to fight the Red Snakes boss on the way to the final area, Baisha, where Lan Di and Niao Sun's feud had started to take place.

Doesn't necessarily make it better in practice, but at least it explains some things.

 

[24Nathan]

I can see we're not going to see eye to eye on this, but I maintain that yes, it is bad writing. That whole interaction with three martial artists at the end adds very little/nothing to the story or characters and could and should have been implemented better. I'm almost certain that they're part of something bigger that was cut from the game, but they felt the need to keep it in/didn't want to cut them out entirely due to personal attachment.
Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Why does every single character need a ton of story with them? Do you feel the same way about the black suits heading up to the roof of the Yellow Head Building? They had little build up.

Literally the only reason you've listed so far as to why it's bad writing is because you think they might be associated with story content that was cut.

What about the black suits that were with Lan Di at the Hazuki Dojo? They don't have any character development.

Tell me how you'd do that differently.

 

[MadeMan]

It makes more sense when you consider a whole area was cut after Niaowu, and that this particular area just before the Old Castle was not supposed to be so close to the end of the game.

It seems to me like we were supposed to fight the Red Snakes boss on the way to the final area, Baisha, where Lan Di and Niao Sun's feud had started to take place.

Doesn't necessarily make it better in practice, but at least it explains some things.

I'm sure there's a reason for it but as you said, in practice it's still quite poor.
It's a shame they still struggled to get all the content in and had to cut a lot from the game to the game's detriment. Maybe they got a little too ambitious.

Why does every single character need a ton of story with them? Do you feel the same way about the black suits heading up to the roof of the Yellow Head Building? They had little build up.

Literally the only reason you've listed so far as to why it's bad writing is because you think they might be associated with story content that was cut.

What about the black suits that were with Lan Di at the Hazuki Dojo? They don't have any character development.

Tell me how you'd do that differently.

I don't want to keep going in circles with this, but the black suits at the dojo aren't the same and I think you know that.
The black suits fill their role fine; they are Lan Di's hired help and establish him as being a leader of a crime syndicate.

The guys at the end of 3 are there for what purpose?
To show that Ryo is strong?
We already establish that with him beating up Mr Muscles and the kickstarter backers. We also see him already beat up a bunch of randomly generated goons with small lifebars. They're dispatched with very minimal QTEs (which I already said I think are implemented badly) and one is even played off as a total joke. They're inconsistent with the story and don't really serve a purpose.

Comic relief?
Maybe, but why at this moment which is meant to be dramatic? Not to mention it's a pretty well played out Bruce Lee parody.

 

[24Nathan]

The black suits are the same in terms of involvement. Both groups of characters have minimal screen time and minimal back story. The only difference is that the black suits leave with Lan Di untouched, and the three baddies are defeated. I don't get why this is such a negative strike in your eyes against the game. Because they're well designed? Because they should've put up much of a fight? Even in this post, the only other point you've attempted to make is that we've already seen Ryo defeat enough goons, so why have more? Should Lan Di have just been chilling in a room alone?

I guess agree to disagree. I just don't understand why this is the point to harp on. As someone who loved this game, there are a ton of other points of the game that are way worse than this.

 

[MadeMan]

The black suits are the same in terms of involvement. Both groups of characters have minimal screen time and minimal back story. The only difference is that the black suits leave with Lan Di untouched, and the three baddies are defeated. I don't get why this is such a negative strike in your eyes against the game. Because they're well designed? Because they should've put up much of a fight? Even in this post, the only other point you've attempted to make is that we've already seen Ryo defeat enough goons, so why have more? Should Lan Di have just been chilling in a room alone?

I guess agree to disagree. I just don't understand why this is the point to harp on. As someone who loved this game, there are a ton of other points of the game that are way worse than this.

Yep, we'll never resolve this on a forum
I don't mean to single out this moment in particular, I gave my full thoughts earlier in the thread too. I also had quite a few positive thoughts about the game thankfully, overall I did like it :)

 

[24Nathan]

By the way...is your full username MadeManG874? Am I close?

 

[MadeMan]

By the way...is your full username MadeManG874? Am I close?

Yes, I'll go by MadeManG74 often. Have we crossed paths before? :)

 

[24Nathan]

Yes, I'll go by MadeManG74 often. Have we crossed paths before? :)

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