General Impressions

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Better not be "Shenmue", I ain't giving it back

Haha. Guess I'll have to settle for "Project Berkley" instead?

 

[Joka]

Only just completed S3 (I know, I know! But it's been a busy time) and my gut reaction is one of pride but also of disappointment to be honest.

I'm proud I was part of helping Shenmue 3 live with backing it and the joy at being part of the game itself (dice capsule toy and guestbook perks!) but I guess 18 or so years was only ever going to leave me feeling underwhelmed.

The 2 most important things in Shenmue to me have always been the ability to get lost in and 'live' in an immersive world but also to see resolution to characters I actually care for- Shenmue 3 caters to the first element mostly with great environments to explore and Kung Fu training underpinning everyday. It retains the distinct essence of Shenmue amazingly well.

However it fails progress the story in any fundamental or meaningful way for me.

Some key bits for me-

-Shenhua's mysteries and powers aren't progressed but even worse she's portrayed as helpless and purely emotive rather than developing into a stronger character ala Xiuying/Ren. I was excited when she 'helped' during the interrogation in Bailu but it literally went nowhere and she was just effectively a bystander for the remainder of the game. I thought we might get her help against Niao Sun or Lan Di but nope!

-Ren just repeats the same 'only interested in money but finally has a heart' trope from S2. That would've been fine if his dialogue or involvement was anywhere near as good as in S2 but it's not- he just appears randomly with no grounded explanation. It would've been better if he turned up to save Ryo when he fought the Red Snake leader initially.

-Niao Sun's introduction and lack of any reference to Ziming was really disappointing- I remember discussing loads of theories about these 2 characters on the Dojo and was super excited when Niao was revealed in the last trailer but we find out very little about her, except her contempt for Lan Di and ruthlessness at becoming leader of the CYM. Which was cool and somewhat explains her ominous appearance at the end of the S2 credits as potentially the 'real' big bad but I still wanted to find out more about her past and motivation in S3.

-The importance of the mirrors is left even more confusing by the end of S3. It seems it really is just literal treasure but why then the dragon/phoenix Armageddon prophecy? I wasn't expecting it to turn out that way but atleast it ties in to Ryo/Shenhua's prophecy and their destiny being for a much greater purpose. Their destiny can't be to protect a load of gold and jewels in a temple somewhere surely?! Also there's just too much complexity even of it is just treasure- the mirrors themselves were meant to show the way but then we ended up using the sword to get a scroll map.

-Linked to the above Sunming and Iwao's motivations aren't much clearer. I doubt either would risk their own or their families lives for treasure. It's nice that it's revealed that Sunming was protecting the mirrors and sets up loads of questions around whether he turned bad and Iwao did kill him, or they worked together to protect them but Iwao managed to escape and the CYM twisted the story when raising Lan Di etc. But still disappointing it doesn't provide more answers than questions. Lan Di doesn't progress either and remains one note when there was/is potential to make him more dimensional.

-none of the new characters are particularly interesting nor progress much. Xiuying was a great character because you got a glimpse of her past, her sadness and why she wanted to help and protect Ryo, you get none of that in S3 when you should get more, especially from the the masters in Bailu as they knew Iwao personally.

I honestly love Shenmue and I want (NEED) the story to progress but I think I'd honestly settle for a non-game format such as an anime or book to finish the series now... It took too much time and money to not get much further in terms of story and that should've been the primary focus rather than all the other elements that make Shenmue what it is. I'll still be backing S4 in whatever format is required as Shenmue was, is and will always be very special and important to me.

 

[Ruffles]

The lack of progression in the story seems to be the main issue for a lot of people. I agree. I can take stiff character models, a less cinematic experience and even lack of character development. I just wish we had gone further in the story by now, especially considering that the future of the series remains unclear.

 

[Joka]

The lack of progression in the story seems to be the main issue for a lot of people. I agree. I can take stiff character models, a less cinematic experience and even lack of character development. I just wish we had gone further in the story by now, especially considering that the future of the series remains unclear.

Yes been reading the forum through the day and can see many people have been saying similar things... Lots of 'its only 40% of the story' but I don't think that excuses that there is very little story.
It's true that there's very little story in S1 but that game is responsible for setting up the path to come and building the world. S2 introduces (and crucially) fleshes out a lot of important characters and also has the major payoff of introducing Shenhua herself.
S3 doesn't flesh out any of it's new characters and although Niao Sun and Lan Di should be the major payoffs they're rushed into the last hour and not handled well at all when they arrive so instead of paying off it just feels shoehorned.

 

[gladias9]

I honestly love Shenmue and I want (NEED) the story to progress but I think I'd honestly settle for a non-game format such as an anime or book to finish the series now... It took too much time and money to not get much further in terms of story...

Oh, now you really shook the beehive. Get to shelter while you can, good sir.
I was crucified in the forums for suggesting an anime or manga to see the story fully realized without hindrance.

 

[Shenmue]

Oh, now you really shook the beehive. Get to shelter while you can, good sir.
I was crucified in the forums for suggesting an anime or manga to see the story fully realized without hindrance.

That's weird because I remember reading a lot of posts asking that from Yu Suzuki before the S3 announcement.

I get it that it's great to have a Shenmue game again since it's pretty much its own unique genre but it's always weird to see people brushing aside the story of the game as if it were secondary to everything else, post release.

 

[gladias9]

That's weird because I remember reading a lot of posts asking that from Yu Suzuki before the S3 announcement.

I get it that it's great to have a Shenmue game again since it's pretty much its own unique genre but it's always weird to see people brushing aside the story of the game as if it were secondary to everything else, post release.

The storytelling should definitely come first and foremost.
But anyway here is the link to the thread where the piranha ate me alive and questioned my entire existence as a Shenmue fan.
Seems like people would rather play Lucky Hit and grind capsule toys than to see the story explored to the deepest of detail.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Not everyone here likes reading manga or watching anime. Shenmue is a video game. A very unique video game. Why would that make an anime or a manga rendition something superior, even if you think we're weirdos for enjoying the aspects of Shenmue that have nothing to do with story? There are plenty of great films and books out there. I don't view Shenmue that way and if I did, it'd probably be a massive dud compared to the movies and books I enjoy. I like the complete package: ambience, graphics, world building, music, gameplay, etc.

If Yu Suzuki wants to release a manga or an anime, more power to him. I don't think that's a field he is personally interested in being a part of, so it's weird you keep pushing it like it's an obvious conclusion for the series. No one should eat you alive for suggesting Shenmue concludes as a move or a book, but I personally would prefer the series not go out that way.

 

[Joka]

The storytelling should definitely come first and foremost.
But anyway here is the link to the thread where the piranha ate me alive and questioned my entire existence as a Shenmue fan.
Seems like people would rather play Lucky Hit and grind capsule toys than to see the story explored to the deepest of detail.

Oh dear... Well as I said the 2 most important aspects for me were/are the immersive world and the story progression.
I fully except that a non game format wouldn't provide the former and there's no way I'd love Shenmue as much as I do if it hadn't been a game as the immersion and story are inherently linked... However Shenmue 3 only provided the world, not the story for me.

The story progression was always going to be the most important factor to me for any follow on from S2. Surely most fans are the same? The diehard campaigning etc. was to get out of that cave after 20 years and find out what Ryo and Shenhua's destiny really was, wasn't it?
We can go back an immerse ourselves in the world via the previous games, fortunately now on current gen consoles. Hence saying I'd accept a non game conclusion to provide the story completion. Obviously not the ideal but I am worried 2 (or is it 3?) more games might not be viable financially.
Just my opinion- in that other trail you linked I saw someone say it would have to be in game format or they wouldn't care and wouldn't read or watch which I personally don't get but that's the joy of opinions I guess!

 

[gladias9]

Not everyone here likes reading manga or watching anime. Shenmue is a video game. A very unique video game. Why would that make an anime or a manga rendition something superior, even if you think we're weirdos for enjoying the aspects of Shenmue that have nothing to do with story?

*looks at Shenmue 3*
Well, if I'm judging by the declining quality of storytelling paired with its severe amount of cut content..
The divisive combat system complimented by atrocious mini-game physics (Lucky Hit and Toss Games especially)
and finally those faint whispers of low sales & the fact that the series will never see that $7+ million budget again..

..I dare say that an anime is the least of our worries and far from the worst thing to happen to the series.
I'm simply evaluating our options before the pinhole in our Shenmue boat becomes a manhole.

 

[Creward]

*looks at Shenmue 3*
Well, if I'm judging by the declining quality of storytelling paired with its severe amount of cut content..
The divisive combat system complimented by atrocious mini-game physics (Lucky Hit and Toss Games especially)
and finally those faint whispers of low sales & the fact that the series will never see that $7+ million budget again..

..I dare say that an anime is the least of our worries and far from the worst thing to happen to the series.
I'm simply evaluating our options before the pinhole in our Shenmue boat becomes a manhole.

Well if we want a "low budgeted shenmue" and if finishing the story is the priority I do not think going episodic is bad games like life is strange did well enough.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

*looks at Shenmue 3*
Well, if I'm judging by the declining quality of storytelling paired with its severe amount of cut content..
The divisive combat system complimented by atrocious mini-game physics (Lucky Hit and Toss Games especially)
and finally those faint whispers of low sales & the fact that the series will never see that $7+ million budget again..

..I dare say that an anime is the least of our worries and far from the worst thing to happen to the series.
I'm simply evaluating our options before the pinhole in our Shenmue boat becomes a manhole.

Cool. I don’t watch anime or read manga and I wouldn’t have given two fucks about Shenmue had it been conceived as either of those things.

Why not just keep enjoying Shenmue II cuz you’re never getting a Shenmue that you enjoy again based on your ridiculous response to me. I see it’s easy to mock the things you don’t like about Shenmue 3. Why even bother if you think the creative team is that inept?

How much do you think a high quality feature length anime movie or manga costs anyway? It’s not like you’re proposing some cheap miracle solution. Nothing you or I are proposing matters anyway: it’s not like Yu Suzuki is poring the Internet for advice from nobodies who post all day on forums.

 

[Sh3ppy]

The divisive combat system complimented by atrocious mini-game physics (Lucky Hit and Toss Games especially)

Such hyperbole... it’s hardly anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

 

[MJC The Great]

I just wanted to say thank you so much for your donation and for helping to make Shenmue III possible. I had the means to do so and I have loved this game series since the early 2000s so I put in $500 for my main PS4 copy and also ordered a physical backer version pc copy (which still hasn't arrived yet!).

I'm just going to list some of the things I liked about the final product: Interaction with Shenhua, the large areas to explore, definite 'Shenmue' feel, beautiful attention to detail with some areas, collecting herbs, new look for Shenhua, the quieter more rural moments, Niao Sun appearing in-game and her double identity, some of the new combat elements, ability to phone friends/family abroad.

Things I didn't like so much: The lack of overall story progression, either retconned story or inconsistencies, dead-eye look in the faces, not enough ways to make decent money without exploiting a buy/sell mechanism, no darts or SEGA arcade machines, the in-game backer rewards, the whole stamina system, no throws in combat, rushed/low-budget final section, more goofy humour throughout, English voice actors apart from Ryo and Shenhua, getting beaten by thugs undermines Ryo's mastery at the end of Shenmue II, repeated story process from Bailu to Niaowu, no big entrance for Ren, poor handling of old characters and not enough backer names in end credits.

Despite some of the weighty criticisms I have, overall I'm sort of contented with it on the whole and I'd give about a 6/10. I'm sure there are loads of things I've missed from both categories but I think you get the general impression. If there is a Shenmue IV which requires crowdfunding, I will back it but not as much next time, especially with the British pound weakened.

Thank you once again and best wishes!

 

[gladias9]

...

I really don't see what I said as being ridiculous or mocking.
- Many people on Shenmuedojo alone state that the storytelling is worse.. wanna try gamefaqs? youtube comments?
- People aren't voicing their issues with the combat system? (I'll grant that mini-game physics are my personal gripe)
- There aren't articles out there reporting that sales are incredibly low? (albeit physic sales)
- You believe Shenmue 4 will get as large of a budget as Shenmue 3 after all the controversy?

I'm speaking plainly. I do not joke. This series is in hot water and we would be lucky to get a recognizable sequel if even a sequel at all as long as we chase this video game standard. Yu's vision is butchered as a result.

 

[orient]

The story is only one aspect of Shenmue. If you take away the interactive parts of I & II -- the exploration, the atmosphere -- what's left is merely serviceable. There's nothing that remarkable about the story alone.

Back on topic, I can't imagine the treasure being treasure alone. The Emperor and Empress having a hidden treasure makes sense, but it can't just be gold. If you look at the scroll, there's some kind of orb floating above the treasure with flames surrounding it:



There's a small chance this could represent the mirrors, but I don't think so. It features none of the distinct mirror markings, like the jewel that's in the middle of both of them, and it appears to have a shine to it like an orb.

By the end it seems like the mirrors were held in the same place as the treasure, the cliff temple, but we don't know that for sure. All Elder Yeh says about the treasure is it's "hidden in those mountains", so I'm not convinced yet. However, if the mirrors were held in the same place as the treasure, this would make sense if it also required those with royal blood to access -- ancestors, or perhaps modern-day reincarnations of the Dragon and Phoenix?

 

[gladias9]

The story is only one aspect of Shenmue. If you take away the interactive parts of I & II -- the exploration, the atmosphere -- what's left is merely serviceable. There's nothing that remarkable about the story alone.

Nothing remarkable about the characters? Nothing remarkable about the setpiece moments? Are you sure you're not talking about Shenmue 3 here? This series didn't gain a fandom simply based off of searchable drawers and examinable capsule toys.

 

[orient]

Nothing remarkable about the characters? Nothing remarkable about the setpiece moments? Are you sure you're not talking about Shenmue 3 here? And the atmosphere comment is bunk, wtf is the Witcher on Netflix if not atmospheric?

It's a very typical Wuxia story with a modern setting, with lots of archetypical characters and plot devices.

Shenmue is unique because it's a game. Words straight from Yu Suzuki's mouth. It is because you get to know the characters over hours of interaction that you grow to care about them. It's because you explore the world, and essentially live in it, that you feel the true atmosphere of a place. You know what's around every corner. You visit a character you haven't spoken to in a while. I don't give a shit about capsule toys but I recognise it's how we interact with games that make them special.

Remove all that and what you're left with is no where near as powerful or original, and I'd take a flawed game over a comic book any day of the week.

 

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I really don't see what I said as being ridiculous or mocking.
- Many people on Shenmuedojo alone state that the storytelling is worse.. wanna try gamefaqs? youtube comments?
- People aren't voicing their issues with the combat system? (I'll grant that mini-game physics are my personal gripe)
- There aren't articles out there reporting that sales are incredibly low? (albeit physic sales)
- You believe Shenmue 4 will get as large of a budget as Shenmue 3 after all the controversy?

I'm speaking plainly. I do not joke. This series is in hot water and we would be lucky to get a recognizable sequel if even a sequel at all as long as we chase this video game standard. Yu's vision is butchered as a result.

Hi there friend. Your musings are on point. We'll see how things turn out (hoping for an ideal situation) but I agree with you about the story (and mysterious undertones) above all for me. I can replay the prior games and use my imagination to fill in the other bits. The story while nothing that unique at the moment, seems to hint at something much bigger. Gosh, the music and tie-in with menial tasks from the original games blue balls me. Nostalgia or just disappointment is a bitch.

Rehashing of mini-games without a story pay off is worthless - they go hand in hand.

P.S. Sorry for the multiple edits. New Years bender commencing. Hoping that's not against the rules!

 

[Sh3ppy]

we would be lucky to get a recognizable sequel if even a sequel at all as long as we chase this video game standard. Yu's vision is butchered as a result

these are the kind of comments I take exception to. It’s purely speculation but the way it’s framed would have many believe that is indeed the case. I sit on the other side of the fence myself, where I agree with many others that III was the groundwork being laid down for IV which will truly be much closer to what Yu envisages. There are bits and pieces here and there that lead me to believe this, although granted nothing solid. I’m no trying to shut down “dissenting” opinions, it just gets to me when opinions are presented as facts.

New Years bender commencing. Hoping that's not against the rules!

Enjoy the bender mate! Ever since having a baby almost 2 years ago I’ve been having to live vicariously through others on these occasions.