Has Yu said anything about retcons in a post release interview?

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Nov 21, 2019
Has Yu Suzuki done any interviews regarding story changes and retcons? Because it feels like a lot of things have changed.

Yuan's letter at the end of S2 implies he's dead, which is pretty massive. Remember his illness? S3 doesn't. S3 would have been an entirely different game if he was.
The Sword of the Seven Stars, and its magical, floating, light beam shooting nature is never once spoken about despite again, being pretty massive. (I know the sword was shortened so they could carry it around). It's also been removed from the intro cutscene.
The tapestries of Luoyang and the mountains no one ever returns from have disappeared from Shenhua's house. Why?
The Shenmue tree doesn't appear to be anything special, and in fact there's now 2 of them...it's not even unique anymore. We're not going back to Bailu, so it looks like that's it.
What exactly is the point of the mirror carvings in the cave?
Maybe i'm remembering wrong, but i'm sure S1 and 2 strongly imply the mirrors are ancient, not 80 years old. Speaking of the mirrors, they don't appear to be a map anymore?
The other 2 Chi You Men leaders aren't explicitly cut, but given Niao Sun's assertion that the CYM belong to her now and they haven't been mentioned once in 3 games, leads me to believe they have been. Same for Tentei. Especially for Tentei.
The nature of the "treasure". Is it literally just monetary treasure now? Master Chen says Lan Di will try to make use of both mirrors, but even he doesn't know what he will try. This statement makes no sense if it's just a bunch of gold and shit.

Basically, it seems to me that all of the mystical elements have been retconned, bar Shenhua's thing, and even then i don't think she's gonna be doing Project Berkeley style kamehamehas.
 
I really think it’s a shame there’s been no “big interview” since release. Maybe he didn’t want to give any? Hard to believe no one wants to give him an in depth interview.
 
I really think it’s a shame there’s been no “big interview” since release. Maybe he didn’t want to give any? Hard to believe no one wants to give him an in depth interview.
It's kinda bizarre in this day and age, when you've got people like Cory Barlog clearing up misconceptions and even giving bits of background lore on twitter. The silence is deafening.
 
We can't confirm that Yu Suzuki changed some of this things like the Shenmue Tree, Luoyang, the mirrors, the other leaders, Shenhua's powers so is not a fact about Yu Suzuki changing some of this things.

For example... we will see Ziming in Shenmue IV? we don't know, we don't know if Yu Suzuki changed this, so is not a fact that Yu Suzuki changed this.

We don't know what will happen in Shenmue IV so this things that i said can happen, it is not impossible. It is not impossible that maybe we will see Shenhua's powers, another Shenmue tree in a old city (Luoyang) and much more.

About the tree in Ternary spring... we don't know if this tree is another Shenmue tree, there is even a thread here in the forums about this, that in the japanese version it is like this in the notebook "There was a large tree." The japanese version is the original version so maybe it is not a Shenmue tree.


Yu Suzuki made some changes but we don't know what he will do in Shenmue IV, maybe in Shenmue IV we will learn about the Shenmue tree, Shenhua's powers and much more so is not a fact that he changed this things


Would be nice an interview with Yu Suzuki to ask things about this subject but i feel that Shenmue IV will be The Chi You Men arc, i really feel we will see all the other leaders, Ziming, another Shenmue tree probably in Luoyang and there they will learn more about a lot of things, it is not impossible to see this things in Shenmue IV.
 
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That's exactly my point, we can't confirm anything because Suzuki hasn't said anything. I want some clarification.

Like, it's debateable that there's two Shenmue trees. In English there is. In Japanese there isn't. This shouldn't happen. Why hasn't Suzuki said which one is true? Any other developer, you'd just tweet them.
 
While many of us want to know, we're also pending the return of a written interview from YSNET, we actually have no divine right to be told these things prior to any new games coming out.

If he wants to tell us them I'm all for it but there shouldn't be the expectation that he must tell us.
 
That's exactly my point, we can't confirm anything because Suzuki hasn't said anything. I want some clarification.

Like, it's debateable that there's two Shenmue trees. In English there is. In Japanese there isn't. This shouldn't happen. Why hasn't Suzuki said which one is true?

About the tree in ternary spring maybe it was a problem with the English translation, maybe Yu Suzuki doesn't even know this in the english version, we don't know.

In the flashback scene with Shenhua's parents in Shenmue II we can see a Shenmue tree in that place, i think that place is Luoyang, so is possible that maybe we will see Luoyang or another old city in Shenmue IV.

That maybe in this old city we will learn more about Shenhua's past, parents and powers, maybe even about the mirrors.

All I know is that the story isn't over so it's possible we can see Luoyang, it's possible we can see another Shenmue tree there and learn more about the Shenmue tree and much more, but maybe Yu Suzuki will do this in Shenmue IV so maybe he doesn't want to share a lot of informations about this in an interview in my opinion.
 
Personally I don't see what's so controversial about there being two Shenmue trees. They're old and majestic trees, but never got sense they were exceptionally rare or only ONE SINGLE ever. Same goes for the sword... the size of the asset changed--woah! The house layout was differene--oh no! Luoyang tapestry was the most mysterious, but still only a simple asset. Yes there's a nice scene in Shenmue 2 disc 4... but nothing gigantic.
 
Personally I don't see what's so controversial about there being two Shenmue trees. They're old and majestic trees, but never got sense they were exceptionally rare or only ONE SINGLE ever. Same goes for the sword... the size of the asset changed--woah! The house layout was differene--oh no! Luoyang tapestry was the most mysterious, but still only a simple asset. Yes there's a nice scene in Shenmue 2 disc 4... but nothing gigantic.

I agree, to me there is nothing controversial about there being two Shenmue trees. I even think we will see another Shenmue tree in Luoyang or other old city, and that in this city we will learn a lot of things about the Shenmue tree, Shenhua and much more, it would be really nice if this happen in my opinion.
 
While many of us want to know, we're also pending the return of a written interview from YSNET, we actually have no divine right to be told these things prior to any new games coming out.

If he wants to tell us them I'm all for it but there shouldn't be the expectation that he must tell us.
It's not that i think we have some divine right to an interview, i just think the creator of the game should make things clear, especially when it's because of a mistranslation. Why would you want the game's fanbase to go off wrong assumptions?

Personally I don't see what's so controversial about there being two Shenmue trees. They're old and majestic trees, but never got sense they were exceptionally rare or only ONE SINGLE ever. Same goes for the sword... the size of the asset changed--woah! The house layout was differene--oh no! Luoyang tapestry was the most mysterious, but still only a simple asset. Yes there's a nice scene in Shenmue 2 disc 4... but nothing gigantic.
It's controversial because the game is named Shenmue. The fact the game is titled after the tree strongly implies there's something special and unique about it. If there's more than one (in Bailu at least) that makes it less special and definitely not unique. Why would the game be titled after an entire species of tree?

I like how you ignored the sword's magical qualities and instead focused on the one aspect i didn't have a problem with. Is it magical or not? Did it float and shoot laser beams around? Because if all you've played is 3, it isn't and never did, it's role is reduced to nothing but a fancy key.

The tapestry of Luoyang and the mountains, when i played 2, i took as foreshadowing...especially the mountains. If they're gone, so is the foreshadowing.
 
It's not that i think we have some divine right to an interview, i just think the creator of the game should make things clear, especially when it's because of a mistranslation. Why would you want the game's fanbase to go off wrong assumptions?


It's controversial because the game is named Shenmue. The fact the game is titled after the tree strongly implies there's something special and unique about it. If there's more than one (in Bailu at least) that makes it less special and definitely not unique. Why would the game be titled after an entire species of tree?

I like how you ignored the sword's magical qualities and instead focused on the one aspect i didn't have a problem with. Is it magical or not? Did it float and shoot laser beams around? Because if all you've played is 3, it isn't and never did, it's role is reduced to nothing but a fancy key.

The tapestry of Luoyang and the mountains, when i played 2, i took as foreshadowing...especially the mountains. If they're gone, so is the foreshadowing.
This is probably just my own theory but I've always thought there would be more than one tree.

For example the flashback of a baby Shenhua in 2. If there were ruins left from that area surely they would be in someway present near Shenhuas House if there were only 1 tree.
 
The flashback scene is clearly not in Bailu. If i had to guess, it's in Luoyang, what with Shenhua's nostalgic feelings. There is another Shenmue tree there, but it isn't necessarily around today (do we even know for definite that the flashback is 16/17 years ago?). I don't really have a problem with there being another tree there anyway as it's obviously a pretty special place, i have a problem with there being two of them in Bailu, because it's a Shenhua thing. She slept in a cradle suspended from the branches of one as a baby, and lives beside one as an adult.
 
The flashback scene is clearly not in Bailu. If i had to guess, it's in Luoyang, what with Shenhua's nostalgic feelings. There is another Shenmue tree there, but it isn't necessarily around today (do we even know for definite that the flashback is 16/17 years ago?). I don't really have a problem with there being another tree there anyway as it's obviously a pretty special place, i have a problem with there being two of them in Bailu, because it's a Shenhua thing. She slept in a cradle suspended from the branches of one as a baby, and lives beside one as an adult.

i really understand your point of view. If i had to choose this things about the story i would choose to do just one Shenmue tree in Bailu village and one Shenmue tree in Luoyang, so the Shenmue tree would remain a special thing because is rare and unique, i really understand,

But the things is... maybe there are other Shenmue trees but the one near Shenhua's house is more special because is really old, thousands of years so is unique and different, and if in the Ternary spring the tree is a Shenmue tree then i feel is a younger Shenmue tree, so i think i don't have a problem if it is a younger Shenmue tree but i understand your point of view.

About the tree in Ternary spring i prefer to believe in the japanese version, the japanese version is the original version so i prefer to believe in this... "There was a large tree."

Oh... one more thing, i found this in Phantom River Stone blog. Shenhua saying about the tree, cherry tree.

image1156-0.jpg
 
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I like how you ignored the sword's magical qualities and instead focused on the one aspect i didn't have a problem with. Is it magical or not? Did it float and shoot laser beams around? Because if all you've played is 3, it isn't and never did, it's role is reduced to nothing but a fancy key.

The tapestry of Luoyang and the mountains, when i played 2, i took as foreshadowing...especially the mountains. If they're gone, so is the foreshadowing.

Yu Suzuki's doesn't like revealing the secrets or very public like some directors. To each their own, I suppose. We still don't know enough if the sword still has some magical quality or if/when Luoyang appears.

Possible the mirror carvings caused the floating sword, whereas the tower did not have the gigantic engravings. Or as Suzuki did admit, they were simply looking for some oomph to end the cliffhanger since they knew Dreamcast was done and had an inkling the franchise future was in balance
 
Has Yu Suzuki done any interviews regarding story changes and retcons? Because it feels like a lot of things have changed.

Yuan's letter at the end of S2 implies he's dead, which is pretty massive. Remember his illness? S3 doesn't. S3 would have been an entirely different game if he was.
The Sword of the Seven Stars, and its magical, floating, light beam shooting nature is never once spoken about despite again, being pretty massive. (I know the sword was shortened so they could carry it around). It's also been removed from the intro cutscene.
The tapestries of Luoyang and the mountains no one ever returns from have disappeared from Shenhua's house. Why?
The Shenmue tree doesn't appear to be anything special, and in fact there's now 2 of them...it's not even unique anymore. We're not going back to Bailu, so it looks like that's it.
What exactly is the point of the mirror carvings in the cave?
Maybe i'm remembering wrong, but i'm sure S1 and 2 strongly imply the mirrors are ancient, not 80 years old. Speaking of the mirrors, they don't appear to be a map anymore?
The other 2 Chi You Men leaders aren't explicitly cut, but given Niao Sun's assertion that the CYM belong to her now and they haven't been mentioned once in 3 games, leads me to believe they have been. Same for Tentei. Especially for Tentei.
The nature of the "treasure". Is it literally just monetary treasure now? Master Chen says Lan Di will try to make use of both mirrors, but even he doesn't know what he will try. This statement makes no sense if it's just a bunch of gold and shit.

Basically, it seems to me that all of the mystical elements have been retconned, bar Shenhua's thing, and even then i don't think she's gonna be doing Project Berkeley style kamehamehas.

- I never really thought Yuan's letter implied he was dead...rather I always thought it was implying that he knew he was perhaps in grave danger and if he didn't make it out alive then that was to be his final words. Almost like the letter Iwao left behind for Ryo...Iwao knew he was in danger and left behind that letter for Ryo at his desk in case things went badly. Same thing with Yuan...I think he was leaving behind a letter in case he didn't make it because he knew he was in danger at that point.

When you examine the Bailu chapter...it really does echo Yokosuka only from the perspective of Shenhua. It's her awakening to the greater story at bay. It's really more about her leaving her hometown and heading out on the quest. Which is why I do believe Bailu and Niaowu echo Yokosuka and Hong Kong as much as they do. The only problem being we're set in Ryo's perspective so that kind of gets lost. Makes me wonder what that proposed perspective system would have looked like had it been fleshed out and finished?

- If we go by the Japanese text; the second Shenmue tree ISN'T a Shenmue tree ;) That's a weird translation issue that to my knowledge has never been answered as to why they translated it that way. But hey, no one has ever answered the botched translation of "that's where we found the scroll" when they're talking about the Cliff Temple either...despite the fact that we haven't even been to the cliff temple yet ;) Shenmue III has some bad translations that I wish we had answers for.

- The mirrors being a map doesn't seem to be retconned to me. Or at least I never got that implication.

- We haven't met the rest of the Chi You Men yet. My assumption is maybe Baisha was the place we would have met them...or maybe Shenmue IV is just going to be the Chi You Men chapter? I don't know if I'd call that a retcon considering we still haven't been introduced to them yet. We know Xiuying's brother is still to come so I wouldn't rule out meeting the rest of the Chi You Men just yet.

- Honestly...this whole series has been nothing more than a bunch of red herrings thus far when it comes to the mystery of the mirrors. Truth is we still don't know what those mirrors will do when combined. Outside of making a map, the honest truth is we don't know exactly they will unlock. Some say it's an imperial army. Others say its the key to a great treasure. And I think the only way we will ever know for sure is when we actually get to that point in the story. But the whole story has been nothing more than a bunch of Chinese Phone whispers thus far. A lot of legends, a lot of hearsay and conjecture but very little in the way of concrete fact.

- Everything to do with the Cave is the only one here I maybe agree with. It did seem kind of a let down that some of that stuff didn't get elaborated on and I wish III had more in the way of that stuff. Like what was the point of the carvings in the cave? Was it really not that important? Or was it just a clue to the one who holds the mirrors that they would find something of importance in that cave? Was it just a case of us putting too much stock into something for 20 years? Did they really set up a floating sword just to be a key to find that scroll? Or was it all retconned?

I don't know...but then again, there are so many unanswered questions as is. The more I think about it though, the more I think it might have just been us putting too much stock into something that was maybe just designed to be a clue to the cave hiding a secret. That secret being the sword.
 
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I don't think Yu Suzuki is obliged to explain anything as long as the series are supposedly alive (in game or anime form). If some day there's some kind of end point for the series when it's clear there won't be any new material, that would be the time to ask for answers.

But, having said that, I agree with some of your points (and not with others):

Yuan's letter at the end of S2 implies he's dead, which is pretty massive. Remember his illness? S3 doesn't. S3 would have been an entirely different game if he was.
This is the main point I agree with you. Yuan's letter and motivations must had been addressed in 3, and they weren't. That's one of my deepest disappointments with S3, indeed.

And I don't think death was the only possible implication for the letter in 2's ending. It could also be interpreted as a voluntary departure for some mysterious reason, or a preparation for some perceived danger, or a belief in some kind of prophecy... I think the game's writing should have played much more with that, and also should have given a proper answer at the end.

I personally would have began the first arc of the Bailu chapter with Shenhua and Ryo thinking Yuan had voluntarily departed and wondering why, and how he could have known Ryo, and known he was coming. Maybe that assumption could have come from some misleading info by the villagers (about the last days of Yuan in the village saying he was going to go out for some errands, or something). And that could have been the perfect excuse to, as players, see Bailu functioning in normalcy, and to ask around the village about Iwao (and Zhao) days in the town, which are the only sensible connections Yuan could have had with Ryo, and the prophecy. Later, when enough info was gathered, there could be a surprising turn of events with Ryo and Shenhua finding out Yuan was actually kidnapped by the Chiyoumen (maybe by seeing Chai being the one coming back and kidnapping other stonemasons?). And then the full attack of the Red Snakes, and most of the actual Shenmue III plot, could have been sensibly built from there.

In addition, at the very end of the game, they could have made Yuan give some believable explanation without changing the overall plot, and without revealing too much. He, for example, could have said that making that cave and writing that letter were part of the "protocol" he was given by the people who handed Shenhua to him as an adoptive daughter, but knew little else. That he was said someone would be coming for her when she was adult, and the Phoenix mirror was going to be his/her credentials. But he didn't expect for that to happen that early, and was surprised the person was the son of Iwao, one of many students that spent some time training in the village. And that, for Shenhua to find out the whole truth about her origins, she had to make the journey with Ryo to the Cliff Temple to recover the Phoenix Mirror and later take it to Luoyang to find all the answers.

(Sorry for expanding myself too much here, but something like this is the minimum I expected after 18 years of waiting at the cave :-)).

The Sword of the Seven Stars, and its magical, floating, light beam shooting nature is never once spoken about despite again, being pretty massive. (I know the sword was shortened so they could carry it around). It's also been removed from the intro cutscene.
The tapestries of Luoyang and the mountains no one ever returns from have disappeared from Shenhua's house. Why?
I agree this is a retcon too, but unlike the previous point, I personally am not bothered at all by it. If those lasers and floating things could be patched out from Shenmue 2, I'd be glad, indeed.

The Shenmue tree doesn't appear to be anything special, and in fact there's now 2 of them...it's not even unique anymore.
As long as we are not told otherwise, here I choose to buy the theory of the English version mistranslation. And the Ternary Spring tree not being the "Shenmue" one.
Maybe i'm remembering wrong, but i'm sure S1 and 2 strongly imply the mirrors are ancient, not 80 years old. Speaking of the mirrors, they don't appear to be a map anymore?
The nature of the "treasure". Is it literally just monetary treasure now? Master Chen says Lan Di will try to make use of both mirrors, but even he doesn't know what he will try. This statement makes no sense if it's just a bunch of gold and shit.
These I will judge when everything is finally revealed. But I'm not uncomfortable by them being a bit disperse, or only hinted. I don't feel these belonged to the main subjects to be touched at this point in the plot. Unlike Yuan's letter, developing the relationship of Ryo and Shenhua, giving her a reason for her journey, the importance of Iwao's time at Bailu and of Bailu itself, Ryo's first clash with Lan Di or properly introducing Niao Sun.

The other 2 Chi You Men leaders aren't explicitly cut, but given Niao Sun's assertion that the CYM belong to her now and they haven't been mentioned once in 3 games, leads me to believe they have been. Same for Tentei. Especially for Tentei.
This I wouldn't call a retcon, because it comes from materials that were not the game themselves, but some early promotional previews. Just as there was a cancelled boat chapter, or Joy was nowhere to be found in the Yellow Head Building rooftop scenes in the first footage. Or Izumi was in Japan.

I personally think some of this changes have been for the best. Having to traverse two other full locations (Shanghai and the train one) until finally meeting the girl-on-the-cover Shenhua would have been too much, for example. And dropping kamehamehas form the series would always be a great decision, that maybe YS already made like 20 years ago or something :-).
 
It's not that i think we have some divine right to an interview, i just think the creator of the game should make things clear, especially when it's because of a mistranslation. Why would you want the game's fanbase to go off wrong assumptions?


It's controversial because the game is named Shenmue. The fact the game is titled after the tree strongly implies there's something special and unique about it. If there's more than one (in Bailu at least) that makes it less special and definitely not unique. Why would the game be titled after an entire species of tree?

I like how you ignored the sword's magical qualities and instead focused on the one aspect i didn't have a problem with. Is it magical or not? Did it float and shoot laser beams around? Because if all you've played is 3, it isn't and never did, it's role is reduced to nothing but a fancy key.

The tapestry of Luoyang and the mountains, when i played 2, i took as foreshadowing...especially the mountains. If they're gone, so is the foreshadowing.

Personally I don't see why there should be just one Shenmue tree. Even if it's special, it is only so to Shenhua and specifically the one at her house. It doesn't mean anything thus far to Ryo, our avatar, so I don't how see how it should hold any significance to players besides being the name of the game. And about the sword, just because it was used once as a key doesn't mean that is all to it. Who knows, maybe Ryo and Shenhua will come back for it down the road and Shenhua will finally be able to channel her chi and shoot lightning bolts out of it, killing off all the dragons summoned by Lan Di in Shenmue 7, or maybe it is just a key after all with not so fancy magical qualities. Is that really what you wanna ask Yu Suzuki about, a clear summary of all the narrative mysteries from these games? Let's be honest, there is no retcon, as it's not like Shenhua's dad was confirmed dead in the end of S2 nor that in S3 it is clear that he is not sick anymore.

I don't see what would be the issue with the fanbase making speculations, specially the wrong ones. Isn't that what the narrative from the series having been all about since the very beginning, a constant teasing and red herrings? If Yu were to answer all these questions, wouldn't that kill part of the fun playing any of the future sequels?
 
But hey, no one has ever answered the botched translation of "that's where we found the scroll" when they're talking about the Cliff Temple either...despite the fact that we haven't even been to the cliff temple yet
Wait, what? I don't remember that haha. What scroll are they talking about?
 
Wait, what? I don't remember that haha. What scroll are they talking about?
At the very end of the game...when they're talking about the Cliff Temple. Ryo says "that's where we found the scroll" in reply to Yuan.

Yet, if you look at the Japanese dialog and subtitles for that scene, it's more like "that's the temple on the scroll." (I can't remember it exactly)

But yeah, it's a bad translation. As too with the 2nd Shenmue tree. It's not written as a 2nd Shenmue tree in the Japanese notebook...I think from memory its like Sakura Tree or something (I need to go back and look at it again.)

But yeah, bad translations were abundant in Shenmue III.
 
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