Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[Down by Law]

Yeah. Suzuki is one man and not AM2 and it shows. That said I think YsNet did an incredible job when you think it is their first console game on a crowdfunding budget no less.

Theres so much potential for Shenmue 4 it makes my head spin and not getting it would feel worse than it felt not getting 3 for so long.

 

[Funny Bear Burger]

I think framing it as being "out of touch" is odd and even the wrong way to look at it, frankly, because Shenmue isn't a series that had previously reflected contemporary trends. You could say that the whole "F.R.E.E." system was part of a drive to make something "open world"… but Shenmue I's approach is completely different from what GTA would popularize, as well as the games retroactively seen as forerunners (Zelda 64, Mario 64 and other collect-a-thon platformers). The closest comparison I see is to adventure games, and those were in terminal decline in the late 90s!

So Shenmue I and II were always off in their own little worlds, doing their own thing. To me, it's that very aspect that made them unique and special, and that made them continue to resonate with me years later— there was nothing else quite like it, so devoted to the mundane (in a good way!) aspects of simulation. Shenmue III is offside from current trends, but it's not so much that it's "outdated" so much as it's continuing to follow its own path and evolution. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Or, in short:

Yes (And That's a Good Thing)

(That said, III isn't completely iconoclastic; the stamina gauge, kung-fu levels and especially the new combat system all feel very much informed by modern games. I don't think they're really successful "modernizations", but they show that Suzuki and the other developers have at least cast a glance at what video games are doing today. But I think there's a limit as to how much the series can lift from modern games while still keeping its own character.)

 

[Kyo_JP]

Yeah. Suzuki is one man and not AM2 and it shows. That said I think YsNet did an incredible job when you think it is their first console game on a crowdfunding budget no less.

Theres so much potential for Shenmue 4 it makes my head spin and not getting it would feel worse than it felt not getting 3 for so long.

Also we tend to forget that almost all people at Sega, at their peak creative moment, led a hand in Shenmue I & II production. Yes, it is a Suzuki game, but he had an army of Sega people behind him trying to create a killer app. I think that YS Net did a good job, but creating a team is not that easy

 

[Funny Bear Burger]

Also we tend to forget that almost all people at Sega, at their peak creative moment, led a hand in Shenmue I & II production. Yes, it is a Suzuki game, but he had an army of Sega people behind him trying to create a killer app. I think that YS Net did a good job, but creating a team is not that easy

This is very important to remember, too. Shenmue may be Yu Suzuki's baby, but it was a team effort; if YSNet has trouble reaching the highs of I and II, it's because any team would have troubles matching Sega at their creative peak!

 

[Creward]

I will be that guy. What are the modern gaming standards you refer to? The only thing I would say is de facto standarized is input layouts for certain kind of games and that is (shooting with a trigger for fps, etc...)

Just looking at AAA industry, for example, in story telling we have from Naughty dog or Quantic Dream of cutscene heavy approach to tell most of the plot or lore to the From Software of not saying much directly and avoiding cutscenes as much they can.

For sure you can study gameplay elements from other games and learn from them what seemed to work and what not but that would not stopped Shenmue3 to have some decisions that are more related to technical problems / lack of playtesting.

For example, lets talk about the stamina system. All the problems the community has with it were probably have caught by play testers and by then since the team was probably struggling to finish the game either decided to brush it aside to focus on the more pressing issues or either was too late the dev cycle that overhauling the stamina system had too many unknowns and risks of breaking other parts of the game.

 

[Tortu-genial]

I think Yu Suzuki was out of touch with what we really wanted from Shenmue, which is more lore and plot development. I am not sure anyone here would've been upset had they slashed the amount of mini games and devoted more resources to better dialogue, plot progression or just richer cinematics with the main cast of characters. I wonder how the original outline for these chapters looks compared to what we got. The 'stamina system' is likely something he wanted to implement from the beginning and couldn't figure out back in the day.

In my case what I wanted for Shenmue 3, was the vision that wanted Yu Suzuki for his title :)
If he wanted lot of side activity and a slow plot development I am ok with that :)

 

[Sonoshee]

I agree, it would be hard for any team to match AM2's creative genius.

They were a development team on fire during Sega's heyday, a lot like Team Andromeda.

Personally, I think Yu-san did a wonderful job in light of this.

 

[code l name]

The other point to consider was Suzuki originally wanted a ratio of 70/30 in terms of new to old elements in Shenmue 3. I can’t find the exact quote or source but I believe this story was relayed by Ryan Payton on a podcast who urged Suzuki to make it more of a 50/50 blend.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

It tries, like new open worlds, to throw you a lot of boring activities but it forget to build a good world around it. It's a big open world that feels lifeless at moments.

On my first day playing Shenmue III, I spent all my time exploring every nook and cranny of Bailu Village. The amount of detail on display reminded me of the first Shenmue game. This level of detail (at least for me) gave the world life and told me all I needed to know about the characters who inhabited it. On top of that, the environments look absolutely beautiful, warm, and inviting. So while I understand the overall context of what you are saying, I disagree with your assessment about the world feeling “lifeless”.

The issue is if your not knowledgeable about what the industry is doing how will you convert new fans into the franchise? Unless Yu Suzuki is only concerned with his diehard fanbase?

I think his concern for making a game for the core fanbase is a given at this point. Shenmue has always been an acquired taste even back in 1999. After the hype for Shenmue III died down in 2015, how many people actually bought the HD remasters? If there was any golden opportunity for Shenmue to endear itself to modern audiences this was the time. However, while it sold moderately well, it did not set the NPD charts on fire. There is no doubt that the majority who bought the HD remasters and are now campaigning for Shenmue IV are the core fanbase. So it would only make sense for Suzuki to appease the fans he has and not worry about mainstream appeal. If new fans come into the fold, then they will do so of their own accord.

 

[DragonOfJoejima]

If he's out of touch, I'm glad that he is. Shenmue 3 is great precisely because it doesn't follow the "standards" of today. I went into this a bit in my big stupid video I made.

 

[currypowder84]

I’m baffled by this complaint tbh.

It's because it's a seemingly minor thing, but what modern game does not have an option for that? The point I was trying to make is when you go into options, there is almost no options to do anything. No way to remap buttons, no way to adjust the camera etc.

You might be think I'm being critical over minor things, but it's because every modern game allows for you to tailor these things to your liking, while Shenmue has its inventory button mapped to R1.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

It's because it's a seemingly minor thing, but what modern game does not have an option for that? The point I was trying to make is when you go into options, there is almost no options to do anything. No way to remap buttons, no way to adjust the camera etc.

You might be think I'm being critical over minor things, but it's because every modern game allows for you to tailor these things to your liking, while Shenmue has its inventory button mapped to R1.

i agree it’s weird and sloppy, but I don’t think Yu Suzuki personally chose the menu fonts or button mapping. I can’t imagine him getting into those kinds of details or why someone on the team wouldn’t just tell him things have changed. The people on his team have vast experience with modern games based on the credits I’ve seen.

I would love to have some insight into how the game was put together. I suppose Switch’s interview should lead to some good information.

 

[Dietsoap]

It's because it's a seemingly minor thing, but what modern game does not have an option for that? The point I was trying to make is when you go into options, there is almost no options to do anything. No way to remap buttons, no way to adjust the camera etc.

You might be think I'm being critical over minor things, but it's because every modern game allows for you to tailor these things to your liking, while Shenmue has its inventory button mapped to R1.

I think you have a legitimate point. I didn't notice because I personally never felt the need to remap the controls, but I admit it bugs me a lot when games don't even give me the option to do so. I was playing Bayonetta on PC recently, got to the Space Harrier stage, and realized I had no way of uninverting the steering controls on the analog stick. It wouldn't allow me to simply map the movement to the d-pad, either. Absolutely TRIGGERS me because it's such a cool section, but I just can't get used to those controls. In my unhumble opinion, if you're not playing Space Harrier on a big analog flight stick, then the steering controls should be digital (d-pad or arcade stick) and uninverted. Anything else is wrong.

But anyways, yeah... Shenmue 3. Remap-able controls would be nice, I agree. Also, a Space Harrier clone/parody minigame using the firefighter guy from those capsule machines would've been sweet.

 

[code l name]

It's because it's a seemingly minor thing, but what modern game does not have an option for that? The point I was trying to make is when you go into options, there is almost no options to do anything. No way to remap buttons, no way to adjust the camera etc.

You might be think I'm being critical over minor things, but it's because every modern game allows for you to tailor these things to your liking, while Shenmue has its inventory button mapped to R1.

While I think in grand scheme of things there was much larger issues with Shenmue 3, elements like jumbled menu, control mapping (i.e. inventory mapped to R1), lack of cohesive fonts used for text and lacklustre splash and title screen were indicative of a game made under tremendous finite resources.

While most of us could forgive this, coming off how polished and well produced the first two games were, it was hard not to draw comparisons.

 

[BruceWayne911]

On my first day playing Shenmue III, I spent all my time exploring every nook and cranny of Bailu Village. The amount of detail on display reminded me of the first Shenmue game. This level of detail (at least for me) gave the world life and told me all I needed to know about the characters who inhabited it. On top of that, the environments look absolutely beautiful, warm, and inviting. So while I understand the overall context of what you are saying, I disagree with your assessment about the world feeling “lifeless”.



I think his concern for making a game for the core fanbase is a given at this point. Shenmue has always been an acquired taste even back in 1999. After the hype for Shenmue III died down in 2015, how many people actually bought the HD remasters? If there was any golden opportunity for Shenmue to endear itself to modern audiences this was the time. However, while it sold moderately well, it did not set the NPD charts on fire. There is no doubt that the majority who bought the HD remasters and are now campaigning for Shenmue IV are the core fanbase. So it would only make sense for Suzuki to appease the fans he has and not worry about mainstream appeal. If new fans come into the fold, then they will do so of their own accord.

I felt like this when Shenmue 3 was announced. IMO it's hard for fans to get into a series when there are already previous games established. I've toyed around with the idea of trying the Pokemon games but the one thing that makes me hesitate is that I'm so far behind.

Going forward I believe Yu and Deep Silver will have to use the Kickstarter as a baseline for budgeting. Good news is the budget should be alot easier with the assets already in place. I hope we hear a announcement soon.

 

[WuyingRen]

I felt like this when Shenmue 3 was announced. IMO it's hard for fans to get into a series when there are already previous games established. I've toyed around with the idea of trying the Pokemon games but the one thing that makes me hesitate is that I'm so far behind.

Going forward I believe Yu and Deep Silver will have to use the Kickstarter as a baseline for budgeting. Good news is the budget should be alot easier with the assets already in place. I hope we hear a announcement soon.

To be fair, I think your average Pokemon game is a lot more accessible than something like Shenmue 3. While there does seem to be a loose overarching story across the Pokemon games, I don’t think you need to have played (or caught) them all to be able to enjoy any of the individual games (not unless they’ve changed significantly over the past ten years).

 

[Sonoshee]

On my first day playing Shenmue III, I spent all my time exploring every nook and cranny of Bailu Village. The amount of detail on display reminded me of the first Shenmue game. This level of detail (at least for me) gave the world life and told me all I needed to know about the characters who inhabited it. On top of that, the environments look absolutely beautiful, warm, and inviting. So while I understand the overall context of what you are saying, I disagree with your assessment about the world feeling “lifeless”.



I think his concern for making a game for the core fanbase is a given at this point. Shenmue has always been an acquired taste even back in 1999. After the hype for Shenmue III died down in 2015, how many people actually bought the HD remasters? If there was any golden opportunity for Shenmue to endear itself to modern audiences this was the time. However, while it sold moderately well, it did not set the NPD charts on fire. There is no doubt that the majority who bought the HD remasters and are now campaigning for Shenmue IV are the core fanbase. So it would only make sense for Suzuki to appease the fans he has and not worry about mainstream appeal. If new fans come into the fold, then they will do so of their own accord.

Magnificent post!

 

[Suzaku]

If I should add another thing, is that "I wished Yu was really out of touch", because the few things that I don't like in Shenmue 3, are a result of the team looking at modern games and standards, for example:

-the Resident Evil 4 camera (something that I hate)
-the modern controls (I love the original S1&2 controls that give you the weight of the walk)
-the new battle system that is very casual friendly
-the side quests like Yakuza or other Open world games

etc.
The game is even "too modern" in certain aspects n my opinion.

 

[bcdcdude]

I think he is, but that's what makes him so interesting; there are very few auteurs in gaming compared to music and cinema. I do think that we are spoiled with modern games in some respects that I did struggle with Shenmue III in a way, but they were all minor things like the inability to pause properly, the shopping system and the like.

I think a lot of the positive reviews found the refusal to be like modern games one of its strengths. I do hope for SIV that a few quality of life options are added, but otherwise I'm happy for him to do as he sees fit (although more story please!)

 

[Jigen]

No I don't think Yu is "out of touch", he was attempting to create a Shenmue game he succeeded.
I think the game loop is very tight it incorporates the old systems and reworks them to be linked together, I see Yu Suzuki most here.
The story was disappointing, but not nearly as "bad" as it is claimed to be. Especially considering this game was written by a staff of 3 writers compared to the originals that had writing staffs orders of magnitude greater it turned out way better than it should have.
Combat is fun, but flawed has major room for improvement in the next entry with the base battle system already built it won't be hard to make it much, much better.
I never wanted Shenmue to be a shitty Walking Dead telltale experience or a TLOU or Life Is Strange, I like Shenmue for being a game that is story focused, but also having fun core gameplay systems that are unique underneath and I vehemently disagree to the core fiber of my being that game systems should have been cut for more or better story that would make it a very bad game.
I is still my thought Shenmue 3 is a game that lacked resources and it's not Yu Suzuki or his team that is fully to blame, they delivered something much better than expected with the financial and manpower resource they had available to them. That being said, it is not perfect, it has flaws, but I beleive Suzuki and his team have the ability to improve they are not set in a state, they like any human get better with practice and more resourcefulness. Shen 4 needs a larger writing staff and motion capture the most imo.