Not much story progression? (Spoilers)

[Vahan Nisanian]

I've heard someone say that there is barely any story progression in this is game. Is that right?

 

[Machsi]

That is a common complaint many people had in the reviews. It’s debated frequently. Not enough information is known on what was planned for the intended story progression, so it’s just a matter of your personal opinion

 

[Yokosuka]

There are some shifting bits in the end and midgame but yep, prepare yourself to learn bare things if not nothing valuable.

Few progress, and few storytelling too. The developers preferred to focus on gameplay rather story which is repetitive in S3 and arguably less well written and cohesive than S1 & S2.

 

[ShenSun]

Expect hardly any story about the chiyou men. Not until the last section of the game, but even then its minimal.

The main focus of Shenmue 3 is Shenhua, and the relationship between her and Ryo. You'll get plenty of that. The main plot of Shenmue 3 is finding her dad, so everything revolves around her.

But yeah the main focus is definitely on the gameplay

 

[hyo_razuki]

I've heard someone say that there is barely any story progression in this is game. Is that right?

Short answer : Yes. The "focus" with the storytelling is supposed to be the relationship between Shenhua and Ryo but even there, they kind of dance around key questions like the prophecy, the letter Shenhua's dad wrote, the Shenmue tree and mostly concentrate on fleshing out Ryo and Shenhua as characters in terms how they feel about animals, martial arts training, different kinds of food and so on. And that is even limited to the first half of the game.

 

[Thomasina]

fleshing out Ryo and Shenhua as characters in terms how they feel about animals, martial arts training, different kinds of food and so on. And that is even limited to the first half of the game.

lmao.

Yeah, there's a teency weency bit of story in this game and it's massively disappointing.

 

[danielmann861]

It's interesting to me...I just recently watched someone who was completely fresh to the series play all three games on Twitch and he came to the realization that all three games were basically back loaded...meaning all three games didn't give you relevant story content until the last act.

He actually enjoyed the games, including III, but he did say that he found to be very much the Shenmue formula. Play through hours of game to get a smidgen of relevant info needed at the very end.

 

[Yokosuka]

It's interesting to me...I just recently watched someone who was completely fresh to the series play all three games on Twitch and he came to the realization that all three games were basically back loaded...meaning all three games didn't give you relevant story content until the last act.

He actually enjoyed the games, including III, but he did say that he found to be very much the Shenmue formula. Play through hours of game to get a smidgen of relevant info needed at the very end.

On my side, the newbie I chatted with didn't like S3 at all, both story and gameplay. But story is really the point that disheartened him to such an extent that he investigated the staff of the games to understand why so much difference in quality. He concluded that Shenmue 3 critically suffered from the loss of Takao Yotsuji (scenario director of S1 and S2.)

He played the original games in 2015 on NullDC. He liked S1 and loved S2. Notice that NullDC has a bug that is muting the jazzy song played over the cutscene where Ryo & Nozomi are seen on the motorcycle. Fun fact is that he never suspected anything wrong.

 

[Thomasina]

Play through hours of game to get a smidgen of relevant info needed at the very end.

That's just not true at all of the first games. Maybe in regards of big revelations of the smaller pieces being put together, but there's always clues and developments pushing the game forward. One person always leads you to another person, and on to the next person. Plus, so many of the characters are interesting with intriguing things to give or show that may not be connected to the main story line, but there's always something interesting going on.

I mean, isn't that why we're all here, is because the first 2 games had an excellent story and were brimming with mysterious and interesting characters?

 

[spud1897]

That's just not true at all of the first games. Maybe in regards of big revelations of the smaller pieces being put together, but there's always clues and developments pushing the game forward. One person always leads you to another person, and on to the next person. Plus, so many of the characters are interesting with intriguing things to give or show that may not be connected to the main story line, but there's always something interesting going on.

I mean, isn't that why we're all here, is because the first 2 games had an excellent story and were brimming with mysterious and interesting characters?

For me it wasn't just the characters it was the idea that you could become lost in the world, feel like a part of it and before you know it time has passed.

Characters definitely played a part. I actually feel Shenmue 1 did some of the driving forward a little better but then it had a more singular focus as it was, at that stage, Iwaos death and the mirror. It was only in Shenmue II did we get the subplots of Ziming and Xiuying, the first real info on Lan Di (who he actually is). What those games do better than III is the inbetween stuff. The teachings from characters on the way, the little sub-stories of each one. Not linked to the main story in terms of relevance but in terms of their own journey crossing with Ryo.

That said the main story in all 3 games does follow a basic structure of giving you a tonne (for want of a better phrase) at the end. That's action and story.

Shenmue III has Bailu village (I wish it had more about Iwao's training there, the little bit it did have left me wanting more) and maybe it's only me but I find that place a pleasure to be in. Its relaxing, pretty, and has a certain charm much like the first two games. Where they didnt succeed in the characters and story in III they certainly did in Bailu in terms of the world. Niawou not so much but I'm about to get there again in my PC playthrough so that might change.

 

[Mole]

SPOILERS BELOW



I'm personally convinced the story was going to have more "meat" in the last act, which was supposed to be in Baisha (promised in the Kickstarter), but then when that was cut (Budget Reasons? Who knows.) they decided to save a lot of it for S4 (presumably so it could be fleshed out more properly later) and just skipped to the fight with Lan Di to give it the closest thing to a conclusion that it could have.

Maybe I'm just grasping at straws, but frankly, I find it hard to believe they would've somehow spent years on the game without changing or rewriting the plot, or that they intended the plot to be so bare in the first place.

My best guess is that the final section was going to reveal more about the Chi You Men, maybe we would've met another one of them, maybe we would've actually fought Niao Sun and Ryo would've gotten his ass kicked by her (I highly doubt the plot would've stayed the same if he won), maybe there was going to be an extended battle like the climax of Shenmue 2. Either way, I doubt it would've ended any other way than with Ryo getting his shit kicked in by Lan Di and Niao's betrayal. That feels frankly too big to be something they just added near the end of development.

And this is a BIG stretch, but I recall it being stated early on that the meaning of the Prophecy was going to be revealed. And a Kickstarter teaser showed Ryo fighting MR. MUSCLE on the Great Wall Of China. I wonder if the cliff temple mentioned at the end of the game was actually going to be another section, serving as a sorta "epilogue" to the game where you fight some goons and then find out some sorta important detail from the temple (Like the cave in S2). But it got cut and/or it never actually existed and I'm being overly wishful.

Why did they cut those things and not other "less important" stuff like, say, grindy parts of Niaowu? My best guess would be that the decision to cut these were made very late in development, after they'd finished most of the game, and realized they didn't have the time or money to properly finish these parts, thus resulting in the rushed conclusion of getting beat up by the Di.

This probably could've been avoided, but I doubt the devs had experience with a crowdfunded game before, so it was probably a case of mismanagement and unwise usage of time.

Hopefully, the next Shenmue will actually focus on the story. It's already got a potentially interesting idea for a beginning with Ryo possibly besieging a You Men ruled temple. Would make for a fun tutorial!

 

[orient]

None of the games are rich in plot, but they fill the gaps with incredible world-building, atmosphere and convincing characters. S3 just lacked in the latter category.

S3 and S1 are structured similarly:

• they both start with slowly poking around relatively confined areas, asking questions, with very few (mandatory) fights
• there's a mid-game revelation that pushes you to a new area
• there's a heavier focus on the "daily grind" in the second area (although it's approached differently)
• they both build to an action-packed climax
• they both end with "Oops, not much happened...now we're heading to a new, cool place!"

Why did they cut those things and not other "less important" stuff like, say, grindy parts of Niaowu? My best guess would be that the decision to cut these were made very late in development, after they'd finished most of the game, and realized they didn't have the time or money to properly finish these parts, thus resulting in the rushed conclusion of getting beat up by the Di.

You could be right. Also, I don't think the type of gameplay content found in Niaowu is an apples-to-apples trade-off with story content. Story content is notoriously expensive to create and can't be reused in the same way as gameplay systems and mini-games. Of course, everything's a trade-off when it boils down to it, but I agree that they almost definitely had more story planned for S3 that didn't make it in.

 

[Real1]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Shenmue III did an excellent job SETTING UP the plot for the future. Suzuki himself even said the third game would be focusing on characters more than plot, as well.

 

[iknifaugood]

S3 and S1 are structured similarly:

• they both start with slowly poking around relatively confined areas, asking questions, with very few (mandatory) fights
• there's a mid-game revelation that pushes you to a new area
• there's a heavier focus on the "daily grind" in the second area (although it's approached differently)
• they both build to an action-packed climax
• they both end with "Oops, not much happened...now we're heading to a new, cool place!"

Except one of those is the beginning of the story and one of those is picking up in the middle after a 20 year wait, so they are not equal. I don’t remember the Two Towers starting with Frodo and Sam dicking around a small town for the first act.

Story content is notoriously expensive to create and can't be reused in the same way as gameplay systems and mini-games. Of course, everything's a trade-off when it boils down to it, but I agree that they almost definitely had more story planned for S3 that didn't make it in.

This is true but that doesn’t automatically excuse what it was replaced with. I can’t imagine how adding another area would have made the quests in Bailu and Niaowu any better.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Shenmue III did an excellent job SETTING UP the plot for the future.

How? What did S3 “set up” that couldn’t be explained by watching the last 20 minutes?

Suzuki himself even said the third game would be focusing on characters more than plot, as well.

So? That doesn’t mean he succeeded and that doesn’t mean that someone expecting a sequel to S2 would appreciate the characterization in S3.

 

[Yokosuka]

How? What did S3 “set up” that couldn’t be explained by watching the last 20 minutes?

Being fair:
- Ryo's power growth (through gameplay essentially, and few lines from masters)
- Ryo's learning relativism (discussions with Shenhua).
- Ryo & Shenhua friending (ditto, kidnapping)
- some bits about the mirrors at mid-game, although I don't remember of what precisely.

So the game did set up some points that will likely make sense in the future.
Problem is that the execution was either poor or insufficient to make these points believable or interesting so the argument of "setting up" doesn't change my low opinion of Shenmue 3 in the slightest.

 

[iknifaugood]

Being fair:
- Ryo's power growth (through gameplay essentially, and few lines from masters)
- Ryo's learning relativism (discussions with Shenhua).
- Ryo & Shenhua friending (ditto, kidnapping)
- some bits about the mirrors at mid-game, although I don't remember of what precisely.

So the game did set up some points that will likely make sense in the future.
Problem is that the execution was either poor or insufficient to make these points believable or interesting so the argument of "setting up" doesn't change my low opinion of Shenmue 3 in the slightest.

To be fair squared:

Starting at 3:37 of 3:57 (so literally the last 20 minutes) we find out:

- Ryo's power growth

Lan Di tells Ryo "it seems you've improved a bit" and we find out that Ryo can't land a hit on him and gets his ass kicked, which is about all we can possibly know about Ryo's power level-- better than before, nowhere close to Lan Di.

- Ryo & Shenhua friending (ditto, kidnapping)

We find out Shenhua has been kidnapped, Ryo is willing to give up the Phoenix Mirror for her, and she continues to join him on his quest. I guess you would miss out on them shooting the shit about their favorite foods and what not, but if you played disc 4 of S2, you already got plenty of shit shooting.

- some bits about the mirrors at mid-game, although I don't remember of what precisely.

This is true, we find out that the mirrors were created in 1910 by order of the emperor, but we find out everything else from Yuan in the last 5 minutes (including the map about the cliff temple).

- Ryo's learning relativism (discussions with Shenhua).

Not sure what you mean by this.

I'm honestly hard pressed to think of a single thing you'd miss out on besides the tidbit about the mirrors being made in 1910 at the behest of the emperor and possibly that Iwao was married when he went to China that would be relevant to S4 outside of that last 20 minutes.

(EDIT) You simply can't do this with S2. Xiuying and Ziming, Ren, Joy, and the Heavens, Yuanda Zhu, are all introduced and then the secrets of the light pattern and Lan Di's true identity all happen before disc 4. I can't even imagine how you could play S2 and S3 back to back and come away with the notion that they are similarly structured stories.

 

[hmjohnny]

I don't agree that the games are all back loaded. S2 is a bit but not S3 and especially not S1.

Most of the story in S3 happens in Bailu, once you get to Niaowu it farts around the whole time until the ending but even then the amount of new information given in the end isn't that much.

S1 everything happens in Disc 2, Disc 3 is mostly filler.

 

[Yokosuka]

(EDIT) You simply can't do this with S2. Xiuying and Ziming, Ren, Joy, and the Heavens, Yuanda Zhu, are all introduced and then the secrets of the light pattern and Lan Di's true identity all happen before disc 4. I can't even imagine how you could play S2 and S3 back to back and come away with the notion that they are similarly structured stories.

I agree with Orient by saying they have a similar structure. A lot of things happened in S2 but there were rather (brilliant) digressions than turnarounds in my memories. If not, they were moments to basically show Ryo's growth like the Four Wude or Xiuying's leaf challenge, both memorable events in Shenmue story.

From Iwao's murder to the cave, Ryo's investigation didn't progress so much objectively. The slow progress and the calendar system are what makes the adventure scale of Shenmue so believable and rewarding.

So I don't think the story needed to evolve dramatically to be engaging. The (non-)progression of Ryo is the journey itself. And being pathetic against Lan Di meant to show that something is wrong in his whole approach despite all his/the player's efforts.
Grinding is not evolving. Harassing a master to get the more techniques as possible isn't neither. It sets up the supposedly Eureka of Shenmue 4.

Since Yu prioritized the gameplay (or was unable to find the right balance between story events/gameplay), we only got the bare bones of the said structure.

 

[Yokosuka]

Not sure what you mean by this.

Relativism was meant to say exchanging views on their respective culture. Ryo is accumulating culture knowledge besides force.

However I think the main function of Shenhua's house is simply to have good time with the host since socializing is part of a journey essence. Credit to Shenmue 3 to do that well, although more events with Shenhua were sadly lacking to be fully convincing (main story events as much as secret/random ones).

 

[iknifaugood]

So I don't think the story needed to evolve dramatically to be engaging.

I totally agree with this, S1 and 2 don't have as much "plot" as S3 and they're still engaging because the breadcrumb trail in them is interesting and we're introduced to memorable characters who we know will make a return.

A lot of things happened in S2 but there were rather (brilliant) digressions than turnarounds in my memories. If not, they were moments to basically show Ryo's growth like the Four Wude or Xiuying's leaf challenge, both memorable events in Shenmue story.

Sure, but don't forget that S2 is still the beginning and needs to be introducing us to the main cast; Xiuying (and the backstory with Ziming), Ren, and Shenhua are all introduced in S2 so, even if it's not super plot oriented, it's still doing a ton of heavy lifting in terms of setting up characters. Ren goes from being essentially a villain to an ally over the course of S2 and while that may not be the greatest story ever told, that's a hell of a lot more development than anyone in S3 gets and he's just one character.

The (non-)progression of Ryo is the journey itself. And being pathetic against Lan Di meant to show that something is wrong in his whole approach despite all his/the player's efforts.
Grinding is not evolving. Harassing a master to get the more techniques as possible isn't neither. It sets up the supposedly Eureka of Shenmue 4.

I don't see why this couldn't have happened in S3. If Ryo fought Lan Di partway through S3 and had to refocus on what he was fighting for by learning more about the CYM and the threat they pose and focusing on his training--that would've been an amazing structure. As it stands, we have an Empire Strikes Back ending except we know that the next place Ryo is heading isn't going to be the end and he has no time to train in between installments. Ryo expresses no evolution by the end of S3, rather he vows to fight Lan Di again, and we know he can't beat him. So at best S4 needs to start at the Cliff Temple where Ryo can get his ass kicked again and we can have the proper story structure that we should've gotten in S3!

Relativism was meant to say exchanging views on their respective culture. Ryo is accumulating culture knowledge besides force.

This is true, though I still think that if you played S1 and 2, you kind of got the gist of this. I don't think S3 did that much to develop Ryo and Shenhua's relationship; they met and got to know each other in S2 and in S3 they spend the entire game still getting to know each other until the last 20 minutes when Ryo decides she's important enough to give up the mirror for. There's the bit where Shenhua interrogates the Mongolian but it's unclear if that's setting something up or just a joke.

However I think the main function of Shenhua's house is simply to have good time with the host since socializing is part of a journey essence. Credit to Shenmue 3 to do that well, although more events with Shenhua were sadly lacking to be fully convincing (main story events as much as secret/random ones).

Yea the conversations with Shenhua were some of the best parts of the game for me. But at the end of the day they're still just optional content that barely affects the story of S3, much less sets anything up for S4.