- Joined
- Oct 17, 2018
I've heard someone say that there is barely any story progression in this is game. Is that right?
Short answer : Yes. The "focus" with the storytelling is supposed to be the relationship between Shenhua and Ryo but even there, they kind of dance around key questions like the prophecy, the letter Shenhua's dad wrote, the Shenmue tree and mostly concentrate on fleshing out Ryo and Shenhua as characters in terms how they feel about animals, martial arts training, different kinds of food and so on. And that is even limited to the first half of the game.I've heard someone say that there is barely any story progression in this is game. Is that right?
lmao.fleshing out Ryo and Shenhua as characters in terms how they feel about animals, martial arts training, different kinds of food and so on. And that is even limited to the first half of the game.
It's interesting to me...I just recently watched someone who was completely fresh to the series play all three games on Twitch and he came to the realization that all three games were basically back loaded...meaning all three games didn't give you relevant story content until the last act.
He actually enjoyed the games, including III, but he did say that he found to be very much the Shenmue formula. Play through hours of game to get a smidgen of relevant info needed at the very end.
That's just not true at all of the first games. Maybe in regards of big revelations of the smaller pieces being put together, but there's always clues and developments pushing the game forward. One person always leads you to another person, and on to the next person. Plus, so many of the characters are interesting with intriguing things to give or show that may not be connected to the main story line, but there's always something interesting going on.Play through hours of game to get a smidgen of relevant info needed at the very end.
For me it wasn't just the characters it was the idea that you could become lost in the world, feel like a part of it and before you know it time has passed.That's just not true at all of the first games. Maybe in regards of big revelations of the smaller pieces being put together, but there's always clues and developments pushing the game forward. One person always leads you to another person, and on to the next person. Plus, so many of the characters are interesting with intriguing things to give or show that may not be connected to the main story line, but there's always something interesting going on.
I mean, isn't that why we're all here, is because the first 2 games had an excellent story and were brimming with mysterious and interesting characters?
You could be right. Also, I don't think the type of gameplay content found in Niaowu is an apples-to-apples trade-off with story content. Story content is notoriously expensive to create and can't be reused in the same way as gameplay systems and mini-games. Of course, everything's a trade-off when it boils down to it, but I agree that they almost definitely had more story planned for S3 that didn't make it in.Why did they cut those things and not other "less important" stuff like, say, grindy parts of Niaowu? My best guess would be that the decision to cut these were made very late in development, after they'd finished most of the game, and realized they didn't have the time or money to properly finish these parts, thus resulting in the rushed conclusion of getting beat up by the Di.
Except one of those is the beginning of the story and one of those is picking up in the middle after a 20 year wait, so they are not equal. I don’t remember the Two Towers starting with Frodo and Sam dicking around a small town for the first act.S3 and S1 are structured similarly:
- they both start with slowly poking around relatively confined areas, asking questions, with very few (mandatory) fights
- there's a mid-game revelation that pushes you to a new area
- there's a heavier focus on the "daily grind" in the second area (although it's approached differently)
- they both build to an action-packed climax
- they both end with "Oops, not much happened...now we're heading to a new, cool place!"
This is true but that doesn’t automatically excuse what it was replaced with. I can’t imagine how adding another area would have made the quests in Bailu and Niaowu any better.Story content is notoriously expensive to create and can't be reused in the same way as gameplay systems and mini-games. Of course, everything's a trade-off when it boils down to it, but I agree that they almost definitely had more story planned for S3 that didn't make it in.
How? What did S3 “set up” that couldn’t be explained by watching the last 20 minutes?I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Shenmue III did an excellent job SETTING UP the plot for the future.
So? That doesn’t mean he succeeded and that doesn’t mean that someone expecting a sequel to S2 would appreciate the characterization in S3.Suzuki himself even said the third game would be focusing on characters more than plot, as well.
How? What did S3 “set up” that couldn’t be explained by watching the last 20 minutes?
To be fair squared:Being fair:
- Ryo's power growth (through gameplay essentially, and few lines from masters)
- Ryo's learning relativism (discussions with Shenhua).
- Ryo & Shenhua friending (ditto, kidnapping)
- some bits about the mirrors at mid-game, although I don't remember of what precisely.
So the game did set up some points that will likely make sense in the future.
Problem is that the execution was either poor or insufficient to make these points believable or interesting so the argument of "setting up" doesn't change my low opinion of Shenmue 3 in the slightest.
Lan Di tells Ryo "it seems you've improved a bit" and we find out that Ryo can't land a hit on him and gets his ass kicked, which is about all we can possibly know about Ryo's power level-- better than before, nowhere close to Lan Di.- Ryo's power growth
We find out Shenhua has been kidnapped, Ryo is willing to give up the Phoenix Mirror for her, and she continues to join him on his quest. I guess you would miss out on them shooting the shit about their favorite foods and what not, but if you played disc 4 of S2, you already got plenty of shit shooting.- Ryo & Shenhua friending (ditto, kidnapping)
This is true, we find out that the mirrors were created in 1910 by order of the emperor, but we find out everything else from Yuan in the last 5 minutes (including the map about the cliff temple).- some bits about the mirrors at mid-game, although I don't remember of what precisely.
Not sure what you mean by this.- Ryo's learning relativism (discussions with Shenhua).
(EDIT) You simply can't do this with S2. Xiuying and Ziming, Ren, Joy, and the Heavens, Yuanda Zhu, are all introduced and then the secrets of the light pattern and Lan Di's true identity all happen before disc 4. I can't even imagine how you could play S2 and S3 back to back and come away with the notion that they are similarly structured stories.
Not sure what you mean by this.
I totally agree with this, S1 and 2 don't have as much "plot" as S3 and they're still engaging because the breadcrumb trail in them is interesting and we're introduced to memorable characters who we know will make a return.So I don't think the story needed to evolve dramatically to be engaging.
Sure, but don't forget that S2 is still the beginning and needs to be introducing us to the main cast; Xiuying (and the backstory with Ziming), Ren, and Shenhua are all introduced in S2 so, even if it's not super plot oriented, it's still doing a ton of heavy lifting in terms of setting up characters. Ren goes from being essentially a villain to an ally over the course of S2 and while that may not be the greatest story ever told, that's a hell of a lot more development than anyone in S3 gets and he's just one character.A lot of things happened in S2 but there were rather (brilliant) digressions than turnarounds in my memories. If not, they were moments to basically show Ryo's growth like the Four Wude or Xiuying's leaf challenge, both memorable events in Shenmue story.
I don't see why this couldn't have happened in S3. If Ryo fought Lan Di partway through S3 and had to refocus on what he was fighting for by learning more about the CYM and the threat they pose and focusing on his training--that would've been an amazing structure. As it stands, we have an Empire Strikes Back ending except we know that the next place Ryo is heading isn't going to be the end and he has no time to train in between installments. Ryo expresses no evolution by the end of S3, rather he vows to fight Lan Di again, and we know he can't beat him. So at best S4 needs to start at the Cliff Temple where Ryo can get his ass kicked again and we can have the proper story structure that we should've gotten in S3!The (non-)progression of Ryo is the journey itself. And being pathetic against Lan Di meant to show that something is wrong in his whole approach despite all his/the player's efforts.
Grinding is not evolving. Harassing a master to get the more techniques as possible isn't neither. It sets up the supposedly Eureka of Shenmue 4.
This is true, though I still think that if you played S1 and 2, you kind of got the gist of this. I don't think S3 did that much to develop Ryo and Shenhua's relationship; they met and got to know each other in S2 and in S3 they spend the entire game still getting to know each other until the last 20 minutes when Ryo decides she's important enough to give up the mirror for. There's the bit where Shenhua interrogates the Mongolian but it's unclear if that's setting something up or just a joke.Relativism was meant to say exchanging views on their respective culture. Ryo is accumulating culture knowledge besides force.
Yea the conversations with Shenhua were some of the best parts of the game for me. But at the end of the day they're still just optional content that barely affects the story of S3, much less sets anything up for S4.However I think the main function of Shenhua's house is simply to have good time with the host since socializing is part of a journey essence. Credit to Shenmue 3 to do that well, although more events with Shenhua were sadly lacking to be fully convincing (main story events as much as secret/random ones).