Potential Shenmue 3 Retcons?

[DarksideHazuki]

This may be because Suzuki originally intended it to be a dagger. See this interview here.

Actually in the original design the Sword of Seven Stars was a dagger, but for some reason I made it a long sword. [laughs] To be safe, I asked a senior co-worker to run it past the director, Yu (Suzuki). I heard that he commented “I asked for a dagger! Oh well - never mind!” and decided to go with it, perhaps because it was well-made.

Oh man, that sound exactly like Yu Suzuki. That's great, I never knew that. Cheers for sharing. Switch is a godsend!

 

[HazukiFCBR]

What i can see are the fans, knows more than the creator of the game himself. And i mean it. I think we got Shenmue 1&2 right, due the time we spent just playing it. I think, once we know Yu Suzuki doesn't play games, he didn't play Shenmue 2. Shenmue's history became a mess. Almost everything i loved about those games, got screwed. I'm in pain.

 

[Goro Harasaki]

For Shenmue 4, YSNet should hire 1 or 2 Shenmue fans who know very well about the lore, as consultants. Yu Suzuki does not play games, I think he forgot some parts of the first games that were created by members of the team 20 years ago. For instance, he did not remember the Nozomi fight easter egg when he was asked about it a few weeks ago...

"Save Shenmue" is still a thing.

 

[chaikilla]

I'm sure there were interviews where Yu said 'It's been 20 years, so I've forgotten some of the story'. If so, it explains a lot.

 

[GM-Shenmue]

He barely remembered who Yuanda Zhu was on a interview back in 2013...

 

[DarksideHazuki]

What i can see are the fans, knows more than the creator of the game himself. And i mean it. I think we got Shenmue 1&2 right, due the time we spent just playing it. I think, once we know Yu Suzuki doesn't play games, he didn't play Shenmue 2. Shenmue's history became a mess. Almost everything i loved about those games, got screwed. I'm in pain.

Could not disagree more strongly with this. I love the dojo, and I love most of the members here, but outside of the absolutely legendary digging and theory-crafting from back in the day from the likes of LanDC and whatnot, the fan theories, plot predictions and suggestions here are almost always absolutely horrific, and not at all what I would ever want to see in Shenmue.

I think Shenmue fans are who I would least want directing or informing the direction of any new Shenmue games, personally.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

Could not disagree more strongly with this. I love the dojo, and I love most of the members here, but outside of the absolutely legendary digging and theory-crafting from back in the day from the likes of LanDC and whatnot, the fan theories, plot predictions and suggestions here are almost always absolutely horrific, and not at all what I would ever want to see in Shenmue.

I think Shenmue fans are who I would least want directing or informing the direction of any new Shenmue games, personally.

But, how you explain this mass, because is what it is."From fans, to fans"....where? Shenmue wasn't just about gampeplay. The story plays a big, maybe the bigger role here. And they screwed. Everything else, I can accept. But the story is a major let down.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

But, how you explain this mass, because is what it is."From fans, to fans"....where? Shenmue wasn't just about gampeplay. The story plays a big, maybe the bigger role here. And they screwed. Everything else, I can accept. But the story is a major let down.

Yeah, we obviously disagree on the story. I loved it.

 

[hmjohnny]

I think we also need to understand the Suzuki didn't write the story by himself. It's likely he only has the overall plot points and vision but the details are made up as he went along. The GDC talk mentions how he hired different writers to come up with the plot and how different people had input in the creation of the game. He didn't even come up with the title or a lot of the names for the main characters.

Also, it seems that the returning writing staff was only consulted in pre-production and didn't stay on t write the game. This could have been a factor as well.

Lastly, things change. It's ben 18 years since the last Shenmue game and maybe Suzuki just changed his mind on certain points.

 

[iknifaugood]

I think Shenmue fans are who I would least want directing or informing the direction of any new Shenmue games, personally.

Directing, sure, but informing? What's wrong with that? Writers use wikis all the time. Even George R. R. Martin who, unlike Suzuki, is solely responsible for his story, consults a fan when he needs his memory refreshed. It might help Suzuki keep things straight like how Ryo should stop being surprised that Lan Di, the man who beat Ryo's father to death for suposedly killing Sunming Zhao, is in fact Longsun Zhao, his son.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

Directing, sure, but informing? What's wrong with that? Writers use wikis all the time. Even George R. R. Martin who, unlike Suzuki, is solely responsible for his story, consults a fan when he needs his memory refreshed. It might help Suzuki keep things straight like how Ryo should stop being surprised that Lan Di, the man who beat Ryo's father to death for suposedly killing Sunming Zhao, is in fact Longsun Zhao, his son.

Nah, I don't want fans anywhere near Shenmue's story, in any capacity, outside of cameos for backer rewards.

 

[iknifaugood]

Nah, I don't want fans anywhere near Shenmue's story, in any capacity, outside of cameos for backer rewards.

See I disagree, I think the KS rewards gave fans more power over the direction of the series. Certainly the forklift job was implemented due to fan demand (something that took not insignificant development funds to implement), as well as bringing Chai back and the phone conversations. To say nothing of a group of backers being the final battle before facing off against Lan Di!

That seems way more intrusive than simply providing fact-checking.

 

[hmjohnny]

But weren't some of the people that worked on the game Shenmue fans that grew up playing the originals? There was the guy that was remaking Shenmue 1 locations in Unreal as a hobby and got picked up to work on Shenmue 3 for example.

Also, it was advertised on KS as For the Fans, By the Fans. Not that I disagree, i don't think fan input into the story is a good idea.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

See I disagree, I think the KS rewards gave fans more power over the direction of the series. Certainly the forklift job was implemented due to fan demand (something that took not insignificant development funds to implement), as well as bringing Chai back and the phone conversations. To say nothing of a group of backers being the final battle before facing off against Lan Di!

That seems way more intrusive than simply providing fact-checking.

Yeah I can see how people might feel that way, for me though, that sort of stuff is a non-issue that I have no problem rationalising. Having fans influence or inform the story of Shenmue is a huge no-no for me.

 

[danielmann861]

• Shenmue 3 ends with them going to the temple for the treasure. If we are indeed on only Chapter 6 has Suzuki excised parts of the story to wrap it up faster?

That's not entirely correct.

Listen to what Yuan said at the end of the game.

The mirrors were once locked away in the cliff temple for safe keeping against unruly hands. But someone had their eyes on it.

Lan Di's father wanted to protect the mirrors from unruly hands so the mirrors were entrusted to him. Several years later though, he died of unknown circumstances. Presumably that's when Iwao ended up with the mirrors...almost like maybe Lan Di's father entrusted the mirrors to Iwao...(or maybe Lan Di's father knew his time was up and gave the mirrors to Iwao before he died...which is my working theory...I don't think Iwao killed him, or if Iwao did kill him, there were justifiable reasons for it.)

The hints at the end imply that maybe Iwao really did have nothing to do with it and this is all being orchestrated by the Chi You Men.

The cliff temple is NOT the location of the treasure...it was merely the place the mirrors were once locked away for safe keeping.

I presume the Chi You Men are simply going there because they suspect they will find something further...presumably meaning they still don't know that the mirrors combined form a map revealing the true location of the treasure at hand. (I don't think it has been retconned rather it just never came up in III)

But yeah, we're not even close to the treasure yet by the sounds of that. The cliff temple we're going to next is simply the place where the mirrors were once locked away before they were entrusted to Lan Di's father. I presume the Chi You Men are going there looking for further clues because they're still in the dark.

Hence why i gather they were trying to kidnap Yuanda Zhu in II. They're trying to find out anything they can because they're still in the dark.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

That's not entirely correct.

Listen to what Yuan said at the end of the game.

The mirrors were once locked away in the cliff temple for safe keeping against unruly hands. But someone had their eyes on it.

Lan Di's father wanted to protect the mirrors from unruly hands so the mirrors were entrusted to him. Several years later though, he died of unknown circumstances. Presumably that's when Iwao ended up with the mirrors...almost like maybe Lan Di's father entrusted the mirrors to Iwao...(or maybe Lan Di's father knew his time was up and gave the mirrors to Iwao before he died...which is my working theory...I don't think Iwao killed him, or if Iwao did kill him, there were justifiable reasons for it.)

The hints at the end imply that maybe Iwao really did have nothing to do with it and this is all being orchestrated by the Chi You Men.

The cliff temple is NOT the location of the treasure...it was merely the place the mirrors were once locked away for safe keeping.

I presume the Chi You Men are simply going there because they suspect they will find something further...presumably meaning they still don't know that the mirrors combined form a map revealing the true location of the treasure at hand. (I don't think it has been retconned rather it just never came up in III)

But yeah, we're not even close to the treasure yet by the sounds of that. The cliff temple we're going to next is simply the place where the mirrors were once locked away before they were entrusted to Lan Di's father. I presume the Chi You Men are going there looking for further clues because they're still in the dark.

Hence why i gather they were trying to kidnap Yuanda Zhu in II. They're trying to find out anything they can because they're still in the dark.

100% agreed. To me it seems like we're going to get to this temple in the cliffs, where the mirrors were locked away, at the climax of the next Shenmue game, and this is where they are to be paired up to reveal the full "map to the treasure" that we saw half of in Shenmue II. And then off to the next region, following said "map" for Shenmue V.

This seems like the logical path to be followed to me. People calling it a retcon, or that Yu has changed/forgotten how the mirrors work need to chill.

 

[iknifaugood]

100% agreed. To me it seems like we're going to get to this temple in the cliffs, where the mirrors were locked away, at the climax of the next Shenmue game, and this is where they are to be paired up to reveal the full "map to the treasure" that we saw half of in Shenmue II. And then off to the next region, following said "map" for Shenmue V.

That's completely counter to the notion that there is 60% of the story left. I assumed that S3 would begin with them either at the cliff temple or close to it (presumably they know where it is). I mean, in S2 Yuanda Zhu says go to Guilin and we practically smash cut to it. The Chi You Men are already at the temple ffs! I have no earthly idea why you would assume that we would have another 30 hour game of Ryo farting around and then only advance the story at the END, much less want that.

This seems like the logical path to be followed to me. People calling it a retcon, or that Yu has changed/forgotten how the mirrors work need to chill.

I mean, the mirror is shown to function differently at the beginning and the sword is not shown at all, and "magic" is all but dropped from this entry. Shenhua literally lives with a man who has the blueprints for the mirrors, worked in a quarry with a magic mechanism that utilizes a heretofore unknown power of the mirror, and somehow knew that someone holding the phoenix mirror was coming to the village. So it's either a massive change or we went to the village where all this stuff comes from and spent the game looking for Shenhua's father for no reason. Combine this with the fact that Suzuki evidently can't keep straight what Ryo knows about Sunming Zhao and at this point the story is looking like a fucking mess.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

That's completely counter to the notion that there is 60% of the story left. I assumed that S3 would begin with them either at the cliff temple or close to it (presumably they know where it is). I mean, in S2 Yuanda Zhu says go to Guilin and we practically smash cut to it. The Chi You Men are already at the temple ffs! I have no earthly idea why you would assume that we would have another 30 hour game of Ryo farting around and then only advance the story at the END, much less want that.

That's not at all what I said, but okay. I'm assuming there'll be other locations and story revelations on the way to the temple in the cliffs, and that the climax of Shenmue IV would be a showdown of some kind between Ryo, Shenhua, Ren, Lan Di, Niao Sun and the warring factions of the Chi You Men. It would be bizarre to kick off Shenmue IV at the temple, imo. If there's 60% more of the story to tell, why would we just teleport ahead? That doesn't make any sense.

I mean, the mirror is shown to function differently at the beginning and the sword is not shown at all, and "magic" is all but dropped from this entry. Shenhua literally lives with a man who has the blueprints for the mirrors, worked in a quarry with a magic mechanism that utilizes a heretofore unknown power of the mirror, and somehow knew that someone holding the phoenix mirror was coming to the village. So it's either a massive change or we went to the village where all this stuff comes from and spent the game looking for Shenhua's father for no reason. Combine this with the fact that Suzuki evidently can't keep straight what Ryo knows about Sunming Zhao and at this point the story is looking like a fucking mess.

It functions pretty much the same. Shoots out a laser that sets the rope on fire that illuminates the giant mirror carvings. Just because we don't see the sword in the opening doesn't mean it's not there. I mean, it obviously is, because Shenhua has it on her later and uses it (the only retcon being its design has changed back to the original dagger design.)

I chalk up the Ryo, Zhao Sunming stuff to bad localisation / English dub. It doesn't seem unnatural in the Japanese VO because of the typical Japanese expressions and mannerisms.

 

[iknifaugood]

That's not at all what I said, but okay. I'm assuming there'll be other locations and story revelations on the way to the temple in the cliffs, and that the climax of Shenmue IV would be a showdown of some kind between Ryo, Shenhua, Ren, Lan Di, Niao Sun and the warring factions of the Chi You Men.

At the end of S3 they are literally on their way to the cliff temple. They know where it is because of the "map" that they have which only shows Niaowu (for some completely unknown reason) and the cliff temple, so where would they be going in between that? Furthermore, every time Ryo sets off for a new location (Hong Kong, Kowloon, Guilin, Bailu Village, and Niaowu), he arrives there in basically the very next scene, so why would this be any different? Also, how do we know there are warring factions? Niao Sun seems pretty confident that she's the new "leader" and everyone in the castle seemed pretty cool with burning Lan Di alive. Don't get me wrong, that's where I assumed the plot was heading as well and something that should definitely have been set up in S3 instead of playing Lan Di's bodyguards for jokes.

It would be bizarre to kick off Shenmue IV at the temple, imo.

Why? Was it bizarre for Ryo to end up in Guilin when he said he was going to Guilin?

If there's 60% more of the story to tell, why would we just teleport ahead? That doesn't make any sense.

Presumably because whatever happens at the cliff temple will reveal something cool and heretofore unknowable about the mirrors, the treasure, the Chi You Men, Shenhua, or any of the other mysteries that will raise the stakes and alter the trajectory of Ryo's journey in some meaningful way (and why it should DEFINITELY have been where S3 ended). If it's literally just map room-treasure and some Ziming and Sunming sprinkles, I don't see how that's 60% of the story.

Just because we don't see the sword in the opening doesn't mean it's not there. I mean, it obviously is, because Shenhua has it on her later and uses it

I would say the fact that they don't show it is less important than the fact that they don't address it, and the fact that nothing "magical" really happens in S3. I mean, Ryo talks to Shenhua about her "powers" but that's basically it. If I saw a sword float in the air and deflect a laser beam, I'd certainly have some questions for the person who built that. The person that we spend the whole game looking for. We literally learn more about the mirrors from Master Chen and Yuanda Zhu than from the person who has the blueprints in his house and is the direct descendant of the man who built them! This is what leads me to believe that what we know about the mirrors is essentially it; they're a map, which is fine but not exactly something we needed to go all the way to Guilin to have confirmed for us.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

It's funny, but ironic at the same time. If someone loves Shenmue 3, i just can't say what made this person a Shenmue fan in first place, once we got barely what makes Shenmue so beloved. I can easily understand who as me, are pissed. But, I won't bash Yu Suzuki and the attempt to make this game happen. No one is gonna see me making public posts to bash the game. I rather speak here. I would pledge for Shenmue IV. But I'm sad. Could be our last chance o make at least, another memorable Shenmue game. But this is definitely not the case here. As for a die-hard fan as me, the game is forgettable.