Random Shenmue III Thoughts

i mean if you would like to talk about things like "there will never be a Shenmue 4 because Shenmue sucks",
"all these new screenshots are fake", "how can anyone be hyped about this?",

or that you should boycott all Deep Silver games because of THQ Nordic,
or how it is a good thing that asian games are getting censored for the west
because all japanese gamers are pedophiles, then the ResetEra board is perfect.

i dont know why anyone would like to discuss anything with these people.
You're right. I've definitely learned how poisonous of an environment it is recently. The political stuff never really affected until recently me because it never affected the games I was interested in, so I was able to talk to people like Spaghetti and others about Shenmue 3 without the distractions. I still think 99% of the forum simply doesn't care, but it sucks the mods are going to allow something like that to poison every thread about Shenmue 3 because it's published by a subsidiary of a company that's related to another company some people are mad at. You know how quickly something like that can be spun out of context, too. Before long you'll see "Shenmue 3 is being developed by a..." Tweets.
 
You're right. I've definitely learned how poisonous of an environment it is recently. The political stuff never really affected until recently me because it never affected the games I was interested in, so I was able to talk to people like Spaghetti and others about Shenmue 3 without the distractions. I still think 99% of the forum simply doesn't care, but it sucks the mods are going to allow something like that to poison every thread about Shenmue 3 because it's published by a subsidiary of a company that's related to another company some people are mad at. You know how quickly something like that can be spun out of context, too. Before long you'll see "Shenmue 3 is being developed by a..." Tweets.

the THQ nordic thread is completely "out of control". all the people in there
who tried to discuss some of the points to make the discussion more neutral are banned.
they are acting like THQ did kill someone or like THQ posted CP or anything like that
and none of that happend. and because there is no worldwide shitstorm going on, they are getting even more mad.

they are sending messages to companies that work with THQ just to get a response that fits their views.
(and of course, none of them are responding). then they get more mad because all the worldwide media companies
are "full of pedophiles" and whatever ... they are talking about banning all THQ, Koch Media, Deep Silver games
and everything is evil and oh my god.
if you read these posts it sounds like you are in a worldwide mass protest.
but if you check all the youtube videos about that topic, you can see in all the comments
that no one cares and that this is the biggest non-issue ever.

the new posts about "how Shenmue was never any good", "of course there is no hype for something like that" etc
are just the next thing to shake your head.
 
Again, why do yall keep bringing it up, or is it only allowed to be talked about for one side? @Peter @Jibby already said to stop it.
 
The topic has been derailed yet again by this THQ Nordic stuff.

Discuss this away from here. Any more and warnings/bans will be issued.
 
I dont think they're entirely wrong. I cant think of a single other game where we haven't seen any actual gameplay at all six months from release. (Shadowdrops of newly announced games notwithstanding) That is highly unusual, and I understand how that can impede anyone's ability to be hyped and increase scepticism on the quality of the game. The people saying the games were never good are quite annoying though.
I think the situation is pretty easy to understand, personally.

Ys Net don't have the time/money/people to pull the team away from core development to gin up a smoke and mirrors vertical slice for a press conference. Even if they did, I just don't think that's how Yu Suzuki works anyway. And the fact of the matter is - this method of promoting games is going the way of the dodo now. It's been proven not to be helpful making sure development staff meet deadlines and milestones, and has backfired through numerous "downgrade" controversies.

The alternative method growing in popularity is a lightning strike of short reveal-to-release strategy. Devs get to work without worrying about press conference deadlines every six to eight months, and pretty frequently hands-on demos and press previews can take place within that initial reveal window. This is arguably what we've seen with the EDGE world exclusive, the trailer next week, and press previews on the horizon - incidentally six months before release.

Unfortunately Shenmue III, being a Kickstarter game, did not have the benefit of being entirely unknown to the world until now - and so people started running the clock a lot earlier than they should have, honestly.

I think the issue is some people aren't taking account for any of this. "It's been three and a half years and they haven't shown any gameplay" is a statement that could only be valid in a void... but we're not in a void. The context is important, as is observing the shift away from the old model of prolonged, multi-year hype cycles.
 
I think the situation is pretty easy to understand, personally.

Ys Net don't have the time/money/people to pull the team away from core development to gin up a smoke and mirrors vertical slice for a press conference. Even if they did, I just don't think that's how Yu Suzuki works anyway. And the fact of the matter is - this method of promoting games is going the way of the dodo now. It's been proven not to be helpful making sure development staff meet deadlines and milestones, and has backfired through numerous "downgrade" controversies.

The alternative method growing in popularity is a lightning strike of short reveal-to-release strategy. Devs get to work without worrying about press conference deadlines every six to eight months, and pretty frequently hands-on demos and press previews can take place within that initial reveal window. This is arguably what we've seen with the EDGE world exclusive, the trailer next week, and press previews on the horizon - incidentally six months before release.

Unfortunately Shenmue III, being a Kickstarter game, did not have the benefit of being entirely unknown to the world until now - and so people started running the clock a lot earlier than they should have, honestly.

I think the issue is some people aren't taking account for any of this. "It's been three and a half years and they haven't shown any gameplay" is a statement that could only be valid in a void... but we're not in a void. The context is important, as is observing the shift away from the old model of prolonged, multi-year hype cycles.

I think thats irrelevant when there are other kickstarter games by small teams that have shown gameplay of their games before 6 months until release, like, I cant think of any that didn't show anything within the first 2 years,.even when the final product ended up looking vastly different and or better than what they showed early on. A lot of us here have faith in Yu Suzuki and his ability to create a great game based on his past acheivements solely because we are already fans of Shenmue and his other games. I do not think it is reasonable that everyone has that same faith and I think it is reasonable to trust what they've been shown, and unfortunately what they have been shown thus far isnt that much to the uninitiated... until recently.

Anyway, I am just saying I can see both perspectives. The one viewpoint I cant understand is being upset over someone liking Shenmue and saying the 3rd game doesnt deserve to exist and they were always bad. That doesnt make sense to me. Like, how does Shenmue 3 existing hurt them so much?
 
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i think it would have been a very bad idea to show more "still in progress" gameplay in 2018 or even before.
look at what we got so far in terms of videos or clips,
the super stiff animations, the punching minigame where ryo doesnt even hit the machine,
strange lighting, blank face expressions and so on.

now lets imagine they would have shown this in 2017 or 2018 in a 5-15 minute presentation video to the public.
we would get the exact same threads everywhere.
the one side would still say things like "oh man this looks rough", "this will never come out in 2019" and so on
and the other side would say "its just a little preview, dont worry", "lets just wait and see, we can trust them".

i dont think that would help us in one or the other way.
the skeptical people would be still skeptical and the other side would be still looking forward to it.
so why put the efford in making a presentation like that if the team can instead use the time for the final product.
 
I think thats irrelevant when there are other kickstarter games by small teams that have shown gameplay of their games before 6 months until release, like, I cant think of any that didn't show anything within the first 2 years,.even when the final product ended up looking vastly different and or better than what they showed early on. A lot of us here have faith in Yu Suzuki and his ability to create a great game based on his past acheivements solely because we are already fans of Shenmue and his other games. I do not think it is reasonable that everyone has that same faith and I think it is reasonable to trust what they've been shown, and unfortunately what they have been shown thus far isnt that much to the uninitiated... until recently.

Anyway, I am just saying I can see both perspectives. The one viewpoint I cant understand is being upset over someone liking Shenmue and saying the 3rd game doesnt deserve to exist and they were always bad. That doesnt make sense to me. Like, how does Shenmue 3 existing hurt them so much?
If we're going into the specifics here - which have the size, scope, and ambition of Shenmue III, and which had a publisher-funded boost to the budget about 6 months into full production?

Does the Dev Room 2 video count as showing us stuff with the off-screen snippets of gameplay?

How many of these other games indulged vertical slice bullshit with pitch demos (Prey for the Gods, whose concept kind of lends itself to a self-contained pitch demo anyway, but still only JUST launched in Early Access that'll last for another 12-ish months)? How many were showing art tests (System Shock remake, though that had its own pitfalls elsewhere which should show us outward projection of a game means very little)? How many had significant investment and time already in development before hitting Kickstarter (Kingdom Come, and their early Alpha for backers was understandably still quite rough and full of placeholders regardless)?

There's a weird expectation because of how tightly controlled game PR cycles are, that all these aspects of development fit into neat boxes. You have to do X, or Y, and do it in this amount of time, etc, etc. But it never really reflects how individual game development actually is. You'll hear that the most from developers themselves, instead of game fans who never dig too deeply into the process. Developers were the ones who came to Shenmue III's defence occasionally while forum posters were shitting on footage and screens from the Alpha or pre-Alpha.

I understand people are hungry for gameplay and have been for ages, but these things often need as much time as possible to mature. Peter said it pretty well a while back. You only have one gameplay reveal. You can only pop that lid once, and now is the appropriate time to do so.
 
How many of these other games indulged vertical slice bullshit with pitch demos

It's absolutely not "bullshit" to develop games that way.

Both ways have advantages and disadvantages; the "horizontal" method lends itself well to small incremental improvements and utilising as much of the team at a time as possible, whereas the "vertical" method allows experimentation of different things to help build a picture of what the full game should be like - for example, if there are fundamental problems with the integration of gameplay and art style changes can be made on the small portion of the game with minimal pain.

The former approach is what you do if you're absolutely sure of what you're doing in advance. It's ploughing your whole field at once, sowing all the seeds at once, watering all the crops at once, to get a full harvest at once. You can adjust the seeding as a result of the ploughing, or the watering as a result of the seeding, but generally speaking you'll have a plan and stick to it.

The latter approach is what you do if you're trying things out. It's a new crop, so you're not sure how deep to plough, how much to seed, or how much to water, so you take a small portion of your field and do everything at once to that small portion and see the result (the analogy breaks down because plants take time to grow, but just assume they don't). If the ploughing wasn't adequate, you haven't wasted time ploughing the whole field - you've only done a small portion.

The other thing is that pitch demos are important to most games. The Shenmue Kickstarter sold on name alone - they could've had absolutely nothing to show for the game and people still would've thrown money at it. This isn't the case for most games (crowdfunded or publisher-funded alike) - people want to see what they're backing, they want something representative of the finished project, because otherwise you're selling them an idea and not a product.
 
If we're going into the specifics here - which have the size, scope, and ambition of Shenmue III, and which had a publisher-funded boost to the budget about 6 months into full production?

Does the Dev Room 2 video count as showing us stuff with the off-screen snippets of gameplay?

How many of these other games indulged vertical slice bullshit with pitch demos (Prey for the Gods, whose concept kind of lends itself to a self-contained pitch demo anyway, but still only JUST launched in Early Access that'll last for another 12-ish months)? How many were showing art tests (System Shock remake, though that had its own pitfalls elsewhere which should show us outward projection of a game means very little)? How many had significant investment and time already in development before hitting Kickstarter (Kingdom Come, and their early Alpha for backers was understandably still quite rough and full of placeholders regardless)?

There's a weird expectation because of how tightly controlled game PR cycles are, that all these aspects of development fit into neat boxes. You have to do X, or Y, and do it in this amount of time, etc, etc. But it never really reflects how individual game development actually is. You'll hear that the most from developers themselves, instead of game fans who never dig too deeply into the process. Developers were the ones who came to Shenmue III's defence occasionally while forum posters were shitting on footage and screens from the Alpha or pre-Alpha.

I understand people are hungry for gameplay and have been for ages, but these things often need as much time as possible to mature. Peter said it pretty well a while back. You only have one gameplay reveal. You can only pop that lid once, and now is the appropriate time to do so.
The issue is 95% of the people we talk to Shenmue about don't give two shits about Shenmue or its success, so they look at the Kickstarter, the meager updates and some of the hilariously bad 'footage' that was released and have their opinion of what Shenmue 3 is gonna be like. We're just way more invested in this thing than most people, so we accept the campaign's faults and keep our hope strong. I don't blame people for thinking the whole thing's been a disaster so far. From the outside looking in, it probably looks like one. No idea why they care so much, but I sleep better when I stop worrying about stuff like that.

"Vertical slices," etc. They don't care. They just want to see a game. If the final game's good, we'll all be happy.
 
"Vertical slices," etc. They don't care. They just want to see a game. If the final game's good, we'll all be happy.

*Almost all. There's always going to be some haters, if only for the reason that they don't have anything that they care about as much as this and it pisses them off. They don't have anything like the fulfilling experience of a dream come true after so many years and they aren't going to. What other game's fanbase could even have such an experience? Maybe only Half Life. But their fanbase seems more cynical about it, joking rather bitterly about hidden meanings in any Valve messages. The meaning of Shenmue itself, and the business context that led to its long dormancy, are unique.
 
It's absolutely not "bullshit" to develop games that way.

Both ways have advantages and disadvantages; the "horizontal" method lends itself well to small incremental improvements and utilising as much of the team at a time as possible, whereas the "vertical" method allows experimentation of different things to help build a picture of what the full game should be like - for example, if there are fundamental problems with the integration of gameplay and art style changes can be made on the small portion of the game with minimal pain.

The former approach is what you do if you're absolutely sure of what you're doing in advance. It's ploughing your whole field at once, sowing all the seeds at once, watering all the crops at once, to get a full harvest at once. You can adjust the seeding as a result of the ploughing, or the watering as a result of the seeding, but generally speaking you'll have a plan and stick to it.

The latter approach is what you do if you're trying things out. It's a new crop, so you're not sure how deep to plough, how much to seed, or how much to water, so you take a small portion of your field and do everything at once to that small portion and see the result (the analogy breaks down because plants take time to grow, but just assume they don't). If the ploughing wasn't adequate, you haven't wasted time ploughing the whole field - you've only done a small portion.

The other thing is that pitch demos are important to most games. The Shenmue Kickstarter sold on name alone - they could've had absolutely nothing to show for the game and people still would've thrown money at it. This isn't the case for most games (crowdfunded or publisher-funded alike) - people want to see what they're backing, they want something representative of the finished project, because otherwise you're selling them an idea and not a product.
Bullshit was probably too strong a word, at least in this context. A demo made sense for Prey for the Gods because of its structure focusing around those set piece boss battles, it lends itself to producing a vertical slice because you can ring-fence those core ideas in a single sequence.

But for Shenmue you can't quite bottle up the essence of its gameplay so neatly. For Shenmue III it seems all the individual parts rely on each other a lot more heavily than before, which would have complicated things as I imagine a lot of how that works was discovered in development. The general point is it's not one size fits all. It's a bit chicken or the egg. A demo would help sell the idea, but would cost money to develop, which is why they're going to Kickstarter in the first place, etc.

Anyway this is getting a bit far away from the point I was making in my other posts. Ys Net didn't have to be compelled to show gameplay before this point because of what other developers have or have not done before. Some games have been shown plenty before getting put on hiatus, or restarting development, or just getting outright canned.

Ys Net just focused on what they were making with periodical updates, and I dunno if there's actually anything wrong with that. Backers got their peek behind the curtain, as much as that stuff is downplayed. I mean fuck it, it's all irrelevant now isn't it? When next Saturday rolls around who's really going to care that they went this long keeping it under wraps?
 
On the one hand, I get why people are clamming to want to see more from it. Especially if you’re a backer or even a fan of the game in general. I do understand the clamouring need to see more and i also understand the general fear of “is this really coming together considering we haven’t seen anything”

But on the other hand, I’ve kind of enjoyed not seeing anything from it. We live in a world where everything is so easily spoiled; where film trailers show off the entire plot to a movie (it’s gotten to the point where I feel I don’t even want to watch most movies anymore because their trailers give too much away.) Same for games. I feel like it’s sometimes info overload with too many trailers; too much hype and so on.

So there is apart of me that kind of enjoys the fact that we haven’t seen much of anything from it.

This isn’t just me being a blind fanboy trying to justify it. I still have my doubts. I still have doubts as to whether the game will truly make it’s August date for one thing. And I still question is it all smoke and mirrors? Are those character models for show? Will they actually reflect in game? It’s not out of the realm of posibility for developers to promote bigger than what they can actually deliver.

But in terms of not seeing much; I actually kind of enjoy the fact that I’m not seeing much from it. I’ll be happy with at least one or two decent trailers but I don’t think I need to be bombarded with trailers either. Just give me one nice spoiler free info dump...maybe in the same way that Rockstar do their trailers a month out from release.

The only fear I truly have is marketing. I don’t know how Deep Silver plan to market the game outside of its fanbase. And the only reason I worry about that is because I don’t want another Shenmue IIx situation. Where the game underperforms and we’re left waiting in limbo for Shenmue IV.
 
Do you guys think that Shenmue 3 can reach the production value of the upcoming Plague Tale: Innocence?

The game is being developed by a team of only 50 developers at Asobo Studios, who wrote their own custom engine for the game.

Newest Trailer:

Gamescom Gameplay Trailer:


I think I would be fairly disappointed in YSNet if they couldn't match this level of quality for Shenmue 3, considering that Asobo actually wrote their own engine for the game (which doesn't have an AAA budget, has been under development for less time than Shenmue 3 and isn't being published by a large AAA publisher/ Focus Home Interactive)
 
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The facial animations and the voice acting seem rough.
But the models/textures are top (and the engine seems fairly rubust, at least graphically, to be running on ps4).
Don't know why you choose that game, not even spiderman looks that good.
EDIT: just saw the gameplay trailer, yeah, I think Shenmue will be in that range (more stylized, probably some props less poly and some textures low res).
 
The facial animations and the voice acting seem rough.
But the models/textures are top (and the engine seems fairly rubust, at least graphically, to be running on ps4).
Don't know why you choose that game, not even spiderman looks that good.
EDIT: just saw the gameplay trailer, yeah, I think Shenmue will be in that range (more stylized, probably some props less poly and some textures low res).

Spiderman? That's about as unfair a comparison as can be had.

Insomniac is one of the most renowned AAA developers with a colossal team size. Not to mention the game is published by Sony, arguably the best publisher in the industry. And of course we can be certain that no expense was spared on either's behalf.

A Plague Tale is a fair comparison, if not an advantage going to YSNet for a larger team size, a greater number of industry veterans and a more notable publisher. What I am attempting to illustrate is that if a small team can write their own engine and produce what we see above in less time, then nothing less should be expected of Shenmue in terms of production quality.
 
It's leaning a bit too heavily on chromatic aberration and other visual effects to look cinematic, IMO. Looks fine for a team of that size, although after watching the gameplay video it does seem a bit linear.

Can Shenmue III reach those levels of production values? Depends what you mean by production values. Depends if you'll account for Shenmue being a larger game with vastly more characters, probably larger environments, and different art design goals. If it's straight up visuals you mean, I'd say Shenmue III already looks as good if not better, in its own way. If a more realistic art style and washed out colours is up your street, you may prefer the other game.
 
Spiderman? That's about as unfair a comparison as can be had.

Insomniac is one of the most renowned AAA developers with a colossal team size. Not to mention the game is published by Sony, arguably the best publisher in the industry. And of course we can be certain that no expense was spared on either's behalf.
I said not even spiderman looks that good (as the cinematic trailer).
Very low res textures, and a nice paralax shader on the windows, but mostly meh (despite being amazing techwise).
 
the math is not that easy. i mean there are tons of games that had a huge amount of development
and advertising money but the game still looks and plays like ... crap.
i mean, look at some of the latest triple A games. those are pretty games with no content.
just because you have ressources like EA, Ubisoft, Take Two or whatever
you dont have a guarantee that all of your games will be super awesome and pretty.

and then there is the next thing. even if you have a lot of money - where do you spend it?
are you going for a graphical push and put 80% of your team on that section.
then you can achieve a a super pretty game but no one cared about the gameplay.

is it a story game, is it a simple gameplay only thing, is it an open world game,
how many dialoge lines are in there, do you need pre rendered cutscenes,
is it a 3 hour or a 18 hour game, how many years or months do you have until the deadline,
is it a american, a european or a japanese developer ...

you can achieve a lot of things if you have the best people in your team and the right amount of money.
if you have a bad team, it doesnt matter how much money you give them, its still a bad team.
so i dont know ... comparisons are hard for me. just because team XYZ achieved something truly awesome
with 15 people and almost no money, doesnt guarantee that team YZX will make the best game ever
with a team of 30 people and more money.

even if you work directly with Sony, bad things can still happen. look at how mediocre the
comments for the alpha/beta videos of Days Gone were. and they have the most ressources you can get.
 
Meh, Sony is just an hype machine.
Spiderman got hailed everywhere as amazing.
Sunset Overdrive came and went.
Both by the same developer.
I enjoyed the fuck out of sunset overdrive, spiderman is "cool".
 
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