Random Shenmue III Thoughts

[Sergeynest]

This is definitely intentional. I think this type of storytelling works really well for Shenmue since it immerses us better in Ryo's journey and keeps the aura of mystery. I get why most stories don't do this though, but it's a good call for Shenmue.

Although technically I should point out that Shenmue does break this formula a few times namely, in the Shenhua prologue, scenes and Xuiying's and Shenhua's flashbacks. But there are necessary times where expositing additional information to the player makes sense if done sparingly.

Where did you find this? I've had a hard time finding anything about the original scripts. I'm assuming it was something like a screenshot you caught a glimpse of a few sentences. If so, are there anymore like it? I'm really interested in this sort of thing.


I knew it!

I remember arguing about this when the game came out but couldn't find the clip where he said it was a Sakura tree. I was always perplexed since I didn't initially notice the notebook entry saying it was a Shenmue tree until after I finished the game. This makes a lot more sense because I feel like the game would have drawn attention to it being a second Shenmue tree if that were the case. Also, it mirrors the Sakura tree in Ryo's yard, with Iwao training under it.

I'm thinking this might be the case. Where they didn't make it explicit originally but gave the direction to do so in the English translation. However, there are arguments against it as well.

For one, it is made really clear that Shenhua say's "Sakura" when referring to the tree in the Ternary Spring instead of Shenmue. She does reference the Shenmue tree by name in other convo's so it's hard to believe this isn't intentional.

Secondly, while the tree looks similar to the Shenmue tree it is never called out as such (except the aforementioned notebook entry). It could be a case of reusing assets rather than intentionally making it a Shenmue tree. Likewise the Japanese never calls it out explicitly and I wonder why the subtlety in one language and not the other; especially for something so important where the game lacks subtlety in areas like this. Considering the translations were done at the same time (it wasn't a later amendment) it's possible that it's just an error or assumption on the translator's part. This isn't far fetched given how poor the translation is in other areas.

Third, it poetically mirrors the tree in the yard. As for Sakura trees not growing in China, we also see a Shinto shrine in Niaowu so it doesn't seem S3 is slavish to authenticity.

Lastly, it really takes away from the gravitas that S2 places on the Shenmue tree being special and ancient if there are many more of them. It's possible there is another tree based on Shenhua's flashback/dream but it is also possible that is the same tree in an earlier time period (Bailu goes back to Tang dynasty after all). Either way, I can't see the games not drawing attention to it if they ever were to encounter a second tree.

IMO, I'm assuming it is not a Shenmue tree until S4 corrects me otherwise.

I'm inclined to believe this is the case. Maybe its Luoyang however since Shenhua does mention the city of the emporer. Bailu was built in Tang and originally fortified so it may be the case that it was the original village nearly a thousand years back. It also makes sense since the Shenmue tree is smaller in the flashback. However, I'm partial to believing there is only one tree since I like the idea that it's unique and special. I'm ok wither way though.

You're post got me thinking, what if that flashback was from an ancestor of Shenhua and that Shenmue Tree is actually the one in front of Shenhua's house, because we know that Bailu Village exists since the Tang Dynasty, but we also know that there was a fire around Bailu Village. The fire could have destroyed the house from that period in the flashback and the Shenmue tree could have survived the fire. It may be unlikely but the tree could have also protected them because of the connetion between the tree and the little girl.
After the fire Shenhua's ancestors could have rebuilt a new house in the same spot because of their connection to the tree.

 

[Yokosuka]

Just started my first PC play-through this afternoon. It's night and day between PC and PS4 Pro. PC is a silky smooth 60 FPS in Bailu, no issues, nothing. Perfect.

While the invisbile walls are a little annoying the village square fits nicely from the descriptions Shenhua gives in Shenmue II. She also refers to Elder Yeh as the old lady in the village and a person who will make medicine if you pick herbs. Nice little details that carry on.

I know people find the arcade, prizes, joy park a little odd but, for me, they don't matter. Bailu is a wonderful place to be.

And LemonHaze's mod makes it even better since it removes the FPS drop when you're crossing the zones. Without the vegetation popping, it would have been literally perfection.

Truly mindblowing to play a Shenmue game with Shenmue Online trailer graphics, without the slightest bit of aliasing.

 

[code l name]

Just started my first PC play-through this afternoon. It's night and day between PC and PS4 Pro. PC is a silky smooth 60 FPS in Bailu, no issues, nothing. Perfect.

Yes playing the trial on powerful PC running game at 60FPS at 4K compared to uncapped framerate of PS4 Pro makes huge difference in terms of fluidity and motion. Here’s hoping we get an upgrade on next-gen machines.

Out of interest are you playing with any of @LemonHaze mods? Particularly the pulled back camera?

 

[hmjohnny]

You're post got me thinking, what if that flashback was from an ancestor of Shenhua and that Shenmue Tree is actually the one in front of Shenhua's house, because we know that Bailu Village exists since the Tang Dynasty, but we also know that there was a fire around Bailu Village. The fire could have destroyed the house from that period in the flashback and the Shenmue tree could have survived the fire. It may be unlikely but the tree could have also protected them because of the connetion between the tree and the little girl.
After the fire Shenhua's ancestors could have rebuilt a new house in the same spot because of their connection to the tree.

That's my feeling as well.

However this sheds some light that it might not be the case (1:08):

Shenhua says she is in the city of the emperor which could be Luoyang or Beijing or another city but it's definitely not Bailu. In your other thread it was pointed out though that Bailu was built and founded by people who were expelled from the Tang capitol (Luoyang) so it may still be a possibility. Also, Shenhua is implied to have a living memory of her ancestors so she could be remembering one of her lives and not another.

The Shenmue tree is said to have lived for thousands of years so regardless the one outside her house has been around since before Bailu.

EDIT: It's also possible that the tree in Ternary spring and others are the same species of tree but that there is only 1 Shenmue tree, that particular tree is special. We can also see similar pink petaled trees surrounding the walls of Shenhua's flashback location so this may be an indication.

 

[iknifaugood]

The poem and mirrors are an interesting thought too. My initial thinking on that was that since Shenhua talks about her dreams of living multiple lives over a long period of time, maybe there have been multiple versions of the mirrors too over multiple emperors or even dynasties?

Like pretty much everything with regards to the Shenmue story, there is a lot of awesome potential in this idea. Even though I know it's not cannon, the Shenmue Online trailer shows some kind of apocalyptic event that changes the landscape around Shenhua and transforms her into the royal clothing she's been shown in in some renders.


(9:22 if that didn't work)

Later in the trailer it also shows a showdown between Shenhua and Lan Di that's almost a literal representation of the poem so who knows? This seems pretty out there though considering how much magic is downplayed in S3.

As for Sakura trees not growing in China, we also see a Shinto shrine in Niaowu so it doesn't seem S3 is slavish to authenticity.

In fairness we knew that there were sakura trees in Bailu Village since S1 since Ryo finds a picture of Iwao and Sunming in front of a whole forest of them. It doesn't bother me as much as the Shinto shrine since Bailu is a fictional place and it's not an explicitly cultural thing like religion.

IMO, I'm assuming it is not a Shenmue tree until S4 corrects me otherwise.

I'm assuming there's more than one shenmue tree (as @Lan Di-sama pointed out, we've almost certainly already seen one in the flashback of S2) but I would hope that when we do see them, there's a bit more pomp and circumstance considering the big deal Ryo made when he saw the first one.

Shenhua says she is in the city of the emperor which could be Luoyang or Beijing or another city but it's definitely not Bailu. In your other thread it was pointed out though that Bailu was built and founded by people who were expelled from the Tang capitol (Luoyang) so it may still be a possibility. Also, Shenhua is implied to have a living memory of her ancestors so she could be remembering one of her lives and not another.

Woulda been reeeeeeally nice if more scenes like this were woven into the main narrative...

 

[spud1897]

Yes playing the trial on powerful PC running game at 60FPS at 4K compared to uncapped framerate of PS4 Pro makes huge difference in terms of fluidity and motion. Here’s hoping we get an upgrade on next-gen machines.

Out of interest are you playing with any of @LemonHaze mods? Particularly the pulled back camera?

I'm not actually. I probably should have thought of them before starting Haha. Having seen the pulled back camera on video im 50/50 about it.

 

[Sergeynest]

Like pretty much everything with regards to the Shenmue story, there is a lot of awesome potential in this idea. Even though I know it's not cannon, the Shenmue Online trailer shows some kind of apocalyptic event that changes the landscape around Shenhua and transforms her into the royal clothing she's been shown in in some renders.


(9:22 if that didn't work)

Later in the trailer it also shows a showdown between Shenhua and Lan Di that's almost a literal representation of the poem so who knows? This seems pretty out there though considering how much magic is downplayed in S3.


In fairness we knew that there were sakura trees in Bailu Village since S1 since Ryo finds a picture of Iwao and Sunming in front of a whole forest of them. It doesn't bother me as much as the Shinto shrine since Bailu is a fictional place and it's not an explicitly cultural thing like religion.


I'm assuming there's more than one shenmue tree (as @Lan Di-sama pointed out, we've almost certainly already seen one in the flashback of S2) but I would hope that when we do see them, there's a bit more pomp and circumstance considering the big deal Ryo made when he saw the first one.


Woulda been reeeeeeally nice if more scenes like this were woven into the main narrative...

What's a bit sad is that with Shenmue 3 we don't know for certain if Yu Suzuki is cutting off the mystical stuff of the Shenmue series or not. On one hand he cuts off the floating sword of seven stars in the initial cutscene in the cave but maintains the placing of the phoenix mirror in the pedestal. In Shenhua's house they took off the picture of the city of Luoyang and the hanging scroll of the moutains of Guilin.
Shenhua still demonstrated that she maintains her special powers.
I sincerely don't know what to expect of Shenmue 4 in this regard if it ever sees the light of day.
The only thing I know is that if Yu Suzuki decides to cut off or significantly downgrade the mystical elements of the Shenmue series that I will be tremendously disapointed because it was one of the elements that made me fall in love with the story of Shenmue. I never wanted Ryo to do Kamehameha's like in the Shenmue online trailer but I also don't want Shenmue to turn out to be just a story of revenge and a treasure chest full of gold coins.

 

[hmjohnny]

I'm assuming there's more than one shenmue tree (as @Lan Di-sama pointed out, we've almost certainly already seen one in the flashback of S2) but I would hope that when we do see them, there's a bit more pomp and circumstance considering the big deal Ryo made when he saw the first one.

I'm not yet convinced either way. It does seem there is a good chance that there is another tree but I laid out my arguments in my previous post on why I don't think it's the one in the Ternary Spring. The flashback/dream Shenmue tree could be in Luoyang or elsewhere but there is also a good chance it is in Bailu in an earlier time. Given the tree's significance I agree with you that a reveal of a second one would warrant the narrative drawing attention.

Woulda been reeeeeeally nice if more scenes like this were woven into the main narrative...

Would have been cool if the game did this but it's not exactly like S3's story had a lot of breathing room either. I mean adding details like this would mean other integral pieces of the story like playing hide and seek and grinding for money would have fallen on the wayside. We don't want something like that in S4 do we?

 

[hmjohnny]

What's a bit sad is that with Shenmue 3 we don't know for certain if Yu Suzuki is cutting off the mystical stuff of the Shenmue series or not. On one hand he cuts off the floating sword of seven stars in the initial cutscene in the cave but maintains the placing of the phoenix mirror in the pedestal. In Shenhua's house they took off the picture of the city of Luoyang and the hanging scroll of the moutains of Guilin.
Shenhua still demonstrated that she maintains her special powers.

I don't think the supernatural has been completely excised yet. My feeling is that Suzuki is hedging his bets by removing those allusions in S3 to allow himself the flexibility to alter/cut the story in S4 if he has to.

he only thing I know is that if Yu Suzuki decides to cut off or significantly downgrade the mystical elements of the Shenmue series that I will be tremendously disapointed because it was one of the elements that made me fall in love with the story of Shenmue. I never wanted Ryo to do Kamehameha's like in the Shenmue online trailer but I also don't want Shenmue to turn out to be just a story of revenge and a treasure chest full of gold coins.

My sentiments as well.

 

[Sergeynest]

That's my feeling as well.

However this sheds some light that it might not be the case (1:08):

Shenhua says she is in the city of the emperor which could be Luoyang or Beijing or another city but it's definitely not Bailu. In your other thread it was pointed out though that Bailu was built and founded by people who were expelled from the Tang capitol (Luoyang) so it may still be a possibility. Also, Shenhua is implied to have a living memory of her ancestors so she could be remembering one of her lives and not another.

The Shenmue tree is said to have lived for thousands of years so regardless the one outside her house has been around since before Bailu.

EDIT: It's also possible that the tree in Ternary spring and others are the same species of tree but that there is only 1 Shenmue tree, that particular tree is special. We can also see similar pink petaled trees surrounding the walls of Shenhua's flashback location so this may be an indication.

Yeah from that dialogue it pretty much dismisses my theory, but I'm glad anyways because it seems that Yu Suzuki will still maintain historical elements in the story of Shenmue,; I just hope that the same will happen with the mystical ones.

 

[iknifaugood]

It does seem there is a good chance that there is another tree but I laid out my arguments in my previous post on why I don't think it's the one in the Ternary Spring.

I agree with that, I never assumed the tree in Ternary Spring was a shenmue tree and if it was, I would hold that as a flaw against S3. I always assumed they were just reusing assets (not the only instance of that in S3), which is fine.

The flashback/dream Shenmue tree could be in Luoyang or elsewhere but there is also a good chance it is in Bailu in an earlier time.

I would say that it's highly unlikely to be Bailu Village for a lot of reasons, mostly because there are absolutely no remnants of the structures that are visible in the flashback (the walls, the gazebo, the bridge etc.) and because it would be really weird for people to go to the trouble of creating what is, for all intents and purposes, a palace in the middle of nowhere and then letting it fall completely to ruin with no one in the village ever mentioning it.

I never wanted Ryo to do Kamehameha's like in the Shenmue online trailer but I also don't want Shenmue to turn out to be just a story of revenge and a treasure chest full of gold coins.

I hated the Shenmue Online trailer when I first saw it, especially when Tidus from Final Fantasy X shows up and shoots fireballs with Ryo. Having said that, after playing S3, I would take the showdown between Shenhua and Lan Di as depicted in that trailer (seriously, that dragon looks fucking awesome) over pirate treasure any day.

Would have been cool if the game did this but it's not exactly like S3's story had a lot of breathing room either. I mean adding details like this would mean other integral pieces of the story like playing hide and seek and grinding for money would have fallen on the wayside. We don't want something like that in S4 do we?

I mean the entire story of the game hinges on Shenhua being a compelling character (so much so that Ryo gives up the actual phoenix mirror for her) so the more info we get about how she's special and there's more to her, the more compelling the story becomes. All three games make such a big deal about how Ryo and Shenhua's meeting is an ancient destiny and anything that has to do with developing them is basically relegated to easily miss-able side content while catching chickens is something you have to do twice in the main story line. Priorities please.

 

[orient]

All three games make such a big deal about how Ryo and Shenhua's meeting is an ancient destiny and anything that has to do with developing them is basically relegated to easily miss-able side content while catching chickens is something you have to do twice in the main story line. Priorities please.

I disagree. Any hints about the mysteries surrounding Shenhua are purposefully vague because those revelations would have no weight in S3. If Shenhua explained her origins to Ryo in Bailu, what purpose would it serve outside of patting fans on the head for being good boys? The real answers are meant for later when they actually mean something and can meaningfully impact the story. As far as in-game time goes, we've still only just met Shenhua.

And that's why catching chickens is more important than Shenhua's backstory (I'm only half-joking)

 

[Sergeynest]

I disagree. Any hints about the mysteries surrounding Shenhua are purposefully vague because those revelations would have no weight in S3. If Shenhua explained her origins to Ryo in Bailu, what purpose would it serve outside of patting fans on the head for being good boys? The real answers are meant for later when they actually mean something and can meaningfully impact the story. As far as in-game time goes, we've still only just met Shenhua.

And that's why catching chickens is more important than Shenhua's backstory (I'm only half-joking)

I see the story of Shenmue like a trail of crumbs from a cake. Shenmue 1 is the beginning of that trail of crumbs, Shenmue 2 is a big crumb that we find along the way, Shenmue 3 is the continuation of that trail of small crumbs, Shenmue 4 will be a slice of that cake and Shenmue 5 the cake itself.
If we found the slice and the cake first there would be no need to follow the trail.
I just wished that the trail of crumbs in Shenmue 3 to be a little bit bigger than they were.

 

[iknifaugood]

Any hints about the mysteries surrounding Shenhua are purposefully vague because those revelations would have no weight in S3.

Seems a little weird to structure the story where we only get hints of the character's abilities as part of the main story line (I know even my precious S2 is guilty of this) just before their secret is revealed. Imagine Ubreakable where Bruce Willis is a normal guy for 75% of the movie and only right before the end we see his powers.

If Shenhua explained her origins to Ryo in Bailu, what purpose would it serve outside of patting fans on the head for being good boys?

Shenhua doesn't know her origins but her talking about her weird dreams and feelings of past lives would add a much needed air of mystery to her which was sorely lacking in S3 imo.

As far as in-game time goes, we've still only just met Shenhua.

This is actually something I liked about S3, it truly felt like no time had passed and they didn't feel the need to make it a big deal that characters were reuniting. That being said there's no getting around the fact that there's maybe 1 or 2 games left, so it would've been nice to up the intrigue a bit especially since S3 is supposed to be the Shenhua and Ryo show.

And that's why catching chickens is more important than Shenhua's backstory

And with that, I have truly heard every possible defense of S3's story.

 

[orient]

I think Shenhua is one of the stronger pieces of S3's story. Doesn't mean the plot isn't barebones once you hit Niaowu because it absolutely is, and the lack of meaningful story beats hurts that section of the game...but yeah, there are other components of the story that are lacking way more than the Shenhua stuff, which I thought was pretty solid for this particular section of the overall narrative.

 

[Sergeynest]

I think Shenhua is one of the stronger pieces of S3's story. Doesn't mean the plot isn't barebones once you hit Niaowu because it absolutely is, and the lack of meaningful story beats hurts that section of the game...but yeah, there are other components of the story that are lacking way more than the Shenhua stuff, which I thought was pretty solid for this particular section of the overall narrative.

Shenhua should have followed Ryo in his search for Yuan at least at the beggining; Ryo would make her back off when things started to get more dangerous with the Red Snakes in order to protect her. Then she could start investigating on her own by interrogating the locals during the day and help out Ryo in his investigation at least once or twice. Ren could have investigated about the Mirrors in Niaowu since he is obsessed with the treasure and some underground stuff about the Red Snakes.
They could have easily used one of the Temples in Niaowu for Ryo and Shenhua to find out about the Cliff Temple, since they would have to save Yuan anyway.
Instead of using Shilin and the Kung Fu Panda Guy to storm the castle, they should have used them in a scene in Niaowu where they would help out Ryo in an outnumbered fight with the Red Snakes in the Streets of Niaowu, this would have made a much better and deeper connection of those characters with the player.
I believe this way the story would have had a better overhaul pace and would have kept us much more engaged throughout the whole section on Niaowu.
But I think ultimatly its easier to find the flaws and correct them after they are done then actually finding them out when we are creating something from scratch. Nevertheless I believe its quite noticeable to see that the section of Niaowu was rushed, specially the end part; this is clear when we compare it to the much well though out section of Bailu.

 

[iknifaugood]

I think Shenhua is one of the stronger pieces of S3's story. Doesn't mean the plot isn't barebones once you hit Niaowu because it absolutely is, and the lack of meaningful story beats hurts that section of the game...but yeah, there are other components of the story that are lacking way more than the Shenhua stuff, which I thought was pretty solid for this particular section of the overall narrative.

My issue is that I try to divorce myself from all the stuff I know about the games over the past 20 years and just look at what a first-time player will experience through the story since, frankly, it's not reasonable to assume everyone is going to replay the games for all the optional scenes and scour the internet for every morsel of information. In that regard, there's precious little about Shenhua that comes across as "special" through just the main story line apart from the prologue scenes. She's not in S1 at all, the scene where she levitates the flowers is optional in S2, and I'm not sure how many of the convos regarding her powers in S3 aren't optional. Remove all the side content and ancillary things like concept art, renders where she's dressed in royal garb, the Project Berkley trailer and the Shenmue Online trailer from your mind and there's very little in the actual games to hint at anything. This isn't in and of itself a bad thing (especially since no one knows where the story is actually going) but it definitely runs the risk of feeling out of nowhere if the story is building to something supernatural.

 

[spud1897]

Interestingly Shenhua mentions that all the Bookies and games are passing through the village and not usually there.

She says this when you're looking for the Bookie with the scar on his face, at night before you find him.

 

[orient]

Shenhua should have followed Ryo in his search for Yuan at least at the beggining; Ryo would make her back off when things started to get more dangerous with the Red Snakes in order to protect her. Then she could start investigating on her own by interrogating the locals during the day and help out Ryo in his investigation at least once or twice. Ren could have investigated about the Mirrors in Niaowu since he is obsessed with the treasure and some underground stuff about the Red Snakes.
They could have easily used one of the Temples in Niaowu for Ryo and Shenhua to find out about the Cliff Temple, since they would have to save Yuan anyway.
Instead of using Shilin and the Kung Fu Panda Guy to storm the castle, they should have used them in a scene in Niaowu where they would help out Ryo in an outnumbered fight with the Red Snakes in the Streets of Niaowu, this would have made a much better and deeper connection of those characters with the player.
I believe this way the story would have had a better overhaul pace and would have kept us much more engaged throughout the whole section on Niaowu.
But I think ultimatly its easier to find the flaws and correct them after they are done then actually finding them out when we are creating something from scratch. Nevertheless I believe its quite noticeable to see that the section of Niaowu was rushed, specially the end part; this is clear when we compare it to the much well though out section of Bailu.

It feels like they tried their best to do some of this off-camera -- give the impression Shenhua and Ren were helping out -- but of course it would've sold it better if they followed you more often. The times when Shenhua and Ren do accompany you are some of the best in the game in my opinion. Talking with the villagers and seeing them react to Shenhua, and storming the Red Snakes hideout with Ren.

Despite Niaowu feeling devoid of important story stuff, there are some awesome QTE cinematics, fun side stuff, and parts of the environments are stunning, so it's not all bad for me.

 

[Sergeynest]

It feels like they tried their best to do some of this off-camera -- give the impression Shenhua and Ren were helping out -- but of course it would've sold it better if they followed you more often. The times when Shenhua and Ren do accompany you are some of the best in the game in my opinion. Talking with the villagers and seeing them react to Shenhua, and storming the Red Snakes hideout with Ren.

Despite Niaowu feeling devoid of important story stuff, there are some awesome QTE cinematics, fun side stuff, and parts of the environments are stunning, so it's not all bad for me.

I also like all that stuff I just think that they could have made the experience much better if they had made some subtle changes in regards to the pacing and in certain moments of the plot. But besides that I still do enjoy Shenmue 3 a lot.