Random Shenmue IV Thoughts.

iknifaugood said:
Japanese Ren in S2 actually sounds cool. Not like trying to sound cool; he exudes the same kind of effortless cool that Harrison Ford had in Star Wars with just his voice. Probably my favorite "thief with a heart of gold" character ever. He plays so perfectly off Ryo I fucking love it.
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Yeah the chemistry and duality between the “Charismatic, free spirited, and morally ambiguous” Ren and the “Stern, reserved, robotic and honor driven” Ryo was perfect writing from Shenmue II. Then they almost make Ryo and Ren borderline parodies of themselves in S3 made their special dynamic in Shenmue 2 a bit regressed.
 
Reprise said:
I'm currently playing Deadly Premonition and I was playing the darts mini game. That and the darts in Final Fantasy VIi Remake makes me realise how much I missed darts in Shenmue 3. I really hope Yu brings them back for Shenmue 4.
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I was planning on playing Deadly Premonition after FF7R, too. The darts in FF7 are great. If Shenmue brings darts back they should add a bit more to it, so it's not just waiting for a good position. Interested to see how Deadly Prem 2 turns out.
 
orient said:
I was planning on playing Deadly Premonition after FF7R, too. The darts in FF7 are great. If Shenmue brings darts back they should add a bit more to it, so it's not just waiting for a good position. Interested to see how Deadly Prem 2 turns out.
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Yeah definitely. I really like how Deadly Premonition and FFVII add a bit more to it. Deadly Premonition's system is pretty good I reckon. Every once in a while, they highlight certain rows for a limited amount of time and any scores you get in the highlighted row gets you a x5 multipler. So say the 12s, 8s and 20s were highlighted and you scored a triple 20, you get 300 points instead of 60.
 
I hope that if we get a Shenmue IV, that its gameplay will combine the intricate detail of the first game, while offering further expansion like the second game. One of my only criticisms of Shenmue II, was that it felt more streamlined in comparison to its predecessor. That being said, one could argue that streamlining Shenmue II allows for a more free flowing combat system. So I really hope for the best of both worlds in the next entry.
 
Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
I hope that if we get a Shenmue IV, that its gameplay will combine the intricate detail of the first game, while offering further expansion like the second game. One of my only criticisms of Shenmue II, was that it felt more streamlined in comparison to its predecessor. That being said, one could argue that streamlining Shenmue II allows for a more free flowing combat system. So I really hope for the best of both worlds in the next entry.
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Yeah, that's the dream. The problem is that size and scope have a direct impact on level of intricacy and detail. You don't even have to look as far as S2 to see this in effect. In the original game you start in the most interactive and detailed environment in the whole game. Once you leave the Hazuki Residence, the level of interaction drops a bit. It's still very high compared to lots of games, but due to the larger outdoor environments you can no longer lock on to almost any object, lift the lid on boxes, trash cans etc. When you're in a shop you can look at various items, but you can't open fridge doors, examine everything individually, etc.

Then with S2, the scale increased so much to the point that it was impossible to give most NPCs personalities like they had in S1. Examining things went almost out the window entirely, apart from a few specific scenes. In all honesty, though, I don't think they sacrificed too much in order to pull S2 off. They struck a good balance between scope and detail, with some areas still being pretty mind-blowing in terms of visual detail.

I know it's been pointed out a million times but S3 is somewhere in between. Bailu feels most similar to S1, with just enough daily routine and characterisation in the NPCs for it to feel convincing, and homely. Lots of examining things...some would say they went too far in this direction on occasion. And Niaowu feels most similar to S2, with the NPCs that walk around being fairly useless filler (not really a bad thing), with shop owners and "special" NPCs being the main source of characterisation and progression. The main differences for me between Niaowu and Wan Chai, for example, are that A) the characters are more fleshed-out in Wan Chai, B) the side activities are way more robust and fun in Niaowu and C) Wan Chai is a bit more convincing due to the density of the crowds.

Personally I would be really happy if they focussed on those slightly smaller, Bailu-esque environments, so they could fit the characterisation in there. There is definite appeal to huge bustling cities, but what I want most in S4 is better combat and better characters. Keep most of the side stuff that's in S3 -- fishing, herbs, love it -- but focus on characters and improving combat. Definitely keep the investigation sequences but tone down the frankly mental amount of drawers you can open :cool:
 
orient said:
In the original game you start in the most interactive and detailed environment in the whole game. Once you leave the Hazuki Residence, the level of interaction drops a bit.
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I would question what function this serves both at this point in the story and at this point in technology. Shenmue had objects you can pick up and drawers to examine primarily as a technology flex, there are only a few times it's used for gameplay or storytelling in all 3 games. In 2000, this was fine because the graphical detail was mind blowing but nowadays? What's it for? We have VR games where you can pick up objects and do weird, meaningless interactions. As with most design things, I take the view of working backwards; what is trying to be achieved? And what is the best way to achieve that (and how have other games achieved it)? And go from there, rather than starting from the assumption that slowly being able to examine random shit instantly makes the game world feel more detailed.
 
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iknifaugood said:
I would question what function this serves both at this point in the story and at this point in technology. Shenmue had objects you can pick up and drawers to examine primarily as a technology flex, there are only a few times it's used for gameplay or storytelling in all 3 games. In 2000, this was fine because the graphical detail was mind blowing but nowadays? What's it for? We have VR games where you can pick up objects and do weird, meaningless interactions. As with most design things, I take the view of working backwards; what is trying to be achieved? And what is the best way to achieve that (and how have other games achieved it)? And go from there, rather than starting from the assumption that slowly being able to examine random shit instantly makes the game world feel more detailed.
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I concede the point that by today's standards object interaction is nothing special from a technological standpoint nor a narrative one. However only speaking for myself, the object interaction element tells me more about the characters than dialog ever did. I will use the Hazuki Residence and Shenhua's house as two examples.

When I look around Ryo's room, I see that he is a disciplined teenager. His room is neat and orderly and he takes his studies and friends seriously. On the other hand, he also has a rebellious side with the magazines in his drawer or the SEGA Saturn (Easter egg I know) console in the living room. When you investigate further into the house, you see that the Hazuki's live a very upper middle class lifestyle given how small living spaces in Japan are. I also learned that the Hazuki's are devout Buddhists when you go into the altar room and investigate there.

Shenhua's house and lifestyle vastly contrasts with Ryo's. I can tell that her father is a rugged outdoorsman who takes his craft very seriously. That while they're not above using some modern conveniences (like a diesel powered generator), they prefer to live a much more simpler and rural life. While all this is explained in Shenmue II, it is interesting to experience it first hand.

Like I said before, you could take these elements out and still have a wonderful game. But for me at least, it provides a little extra characterization and highlights the slice of life elements of Shenmue more. Therefore, I start to see this world as an actual living world to become immersed in.

That's just me though.
 
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Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
I concede the point that by today's standards object interaction is nothing special from a technological standpoint nor a narrative one. However only speaking for myself, the object interaction element tells me more about the characters than dialog ever did. I will use the Hazuki Residence and Shenhua's house as two examples.

When I look around Ryo's room, I see that he is a disciplined teenager. His room is neat and orderly, he takes his studies and friends seriously. On the other hand, he also has a rebellious side with the magazines in his drawer or the SEGA Saturn (Easter egg I know) console in the living room. When you investigate further into the house, you see that the Hazuki's live a very upper middle class lifestyle given how small living spaces in Japan are. I also learned that the Hazuki's are devout Buddhists when you go into the altar room and investigate there.

Shenhua's house and lifestyle vastly contrasts with Ryo's. I can tell that her father is a rugged outdoorsman who takes his craft very seriously. That while they're not above using some modern conveniences (like a diesel powered generator), they prefer to live a much more simpler and rural life. While all this is explained in Shenmue II, it is interesting to experience it first hand.

Like I said before, you could take these elements out and still have a wonderful game. But for me at least, it provides a little extra characterization and highlights the slice of life elements of Shenmue more. Therefore, I start to see this world as an actual living world to become immersed in.

That's just me though.
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I agree. It's annoying how everyone credits Naughty Dog with pioneering environmental story telling.. YU SUZUKI pioneered environmental story telling.

However, I do feel that being able to open every drawer sorta felt a tad less necessary in S3 almost as if being able open every drawer was fan service that Yu was throwing in. I also hated that the game went into detective music every time you looked at drawers as if it's a big deal.

I also felt the generator in Shenhuas's house made her and her father a bit hypocritical.... I mean they purport to be these rugged outdoors people at one with nature... buy have electricity? Seriously Yuan? He should just pack his bags and move to the city if he's all about living modern anyway.
 
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iknifaugood said:
I would question what function this serves both at this point in the story and at this point in technology. Shenmue had objects you can pick up and drawers to examine primarily as a technology flex, there are only a few times it's used for gameplay or storytelling in all 3 games. In 2000, this was fine because the graphical detail was mind blowing but nowadays? What's it for? We have VR games where you can pick up objects and do weird, meaningless interactions. As with most design things, I take the view of working backwards; what is trying to be achieved? And what is the best way to achieve that (and how have other games achieved it)? And go from there, rather than starting from the assumption that slowly being able to examine random shit instantly makes the game world feel more detailed.
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I think the ability to examine random shit has to serve a purpose for it to contribute meaningfully to the game, and in S1 I think it justifies itself. Finding the Phoenix Mirror would've been no where near as impactful if the only things you could interact with in the basement were the scrapes on the floor and a few other key items. Your perception of Iwao and Ryo is heavily shaped by the things you find in the Hazuki Residence.

I really like that they brought this back for S3 as a "detective mode" of sorts. The problem is they took the "examine every drawer" thing a little too literally. The challenge shouldn't come from the sheer amount of stuff you have to sift through, it should come from being perceptive, like looking in the mirror in the Hazuki basement, lighting the candles to get a better view etc.

*(To be fair I think S3 nailed this in a few of the scenes, just not all of them.)
 
Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
I concede the point that by today's standards object interaction is nothing special from a technological standpoint nor a narrative one. However only speaking for myself, the object interaction element tells me more about the characters than dialog ever did. I will use the Hazuki Residence and Shenhua's house as two examples.

When I look around Ryo's room, I see that he is a disciplined teenager. His room is neat and orderly, he takes his studies and friends seriously. On the other hand, he also has a rebellious side with the magazines in his drawer or the SEGA Saturn (Easter egg I know) console in the living room. When you investigate further into the house, you see that the Hazuki's live a very upper middle class lifestyle given how small living spaces in Japan are. I also learned that the Hazuki's are devout Buddhists when you go into the altar room and investigate there.

Shenhua's house and lifestyle vastly contrasts with Ryo's. I can tell that her father is a rugged outdoorsman who takes his craft very seriously. That while they're not above using some modern conveniences (like a diesel powered generator), they prefer to live a much more simpler and rural life. While all this is explained in Shenmue II, it is interesting to experience it first hand.

Like I said before, you could take these elements out and still have a wonderful game. But for me at least, it provides a little extra characterization and highlights the slice of life elements of Shenmue more. Therefore, I start to see this world as an actual living world to become immersed in.

That's just me though.
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I agree 100% with this. The way to make environments compelling is to have a compelling narrative that gets told through the environment. I've said elsewhere on this forum that the Hazuki basement is the series high point for me for this exact reason (I'm sure I'm not the only one who replayed that scene after S2, scouring the area for clues).

SMDzero said:
I agree. It's annoying how everyone credits Naughty Dog with pioneering environmental story telling.. YU SUZUKI pioneered environmental story telling.
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Neither of them did. Old school PC adventure games, RPGs like the Ultima series, and even FPS games like System Shock were doing things in the late 80s and early 90s that games today still reference.

orient said:
I really like that they brought this back for S3 as a "detective mode" of sorts. The problem is they took the "examine every drawer" thing a little too literally. The challenge shouldn't come from the sheer amount of stuff you have to sift through, it should come from being perceptive, like looking in the mirror in the Hazuki basement, lighting the candles to get a better view etc.

*(To be fair I think S3 nailed this in a few of the scenes, just not all of them.)
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If Elder Yeh was a more fleshed out character and exploring her home led to more clues about the poem, Shenhua, the mirrors, or anything like that, I think that would have gone a long way toward capturing some of the supernatural feeling that S3 was lacking.
 
I think that Shenmue 4 more than anything else must excell in the Story department, in second it must have a great cast of charaters both old and new.
These two elements combined must transmit emotion and memorable moments if possible even more than in Shenmue 1 & 2.
Ryo's martial art skills must be pushed to the next level.
I would love to see Ryo train under a charismatic martial arts master, one that would remind Ryo of his father, one that would create a special bond between master and student.
Ryo would also need a partner, someone that could rival with him and help him push is martial arts skills to the next level, someone like Guizhang and a rivalry similar to that of Ryu and Ken or Goku and Krillin.
They would be intense rivals at first but with the development of the story they would become friends, almost like brothers by the end.
They should undergo an intense training regime with various exotic training methods inspired in traditional chinese martial arts training with some comical moments along the way.
I would suggest this to take place in a Shaolin temple, where Ryo would live work and train with other students. I believe this would attract new players into the franchise, since there as always been a lot of fascination for the Shaolin Monks.
They should also work hard in improving the fighting mechanics. If they can manage to make it impactfull and fluid and make the AI better, that will surelly get the attention of more people into the series.
Ryo's walking and running animations must become natural once and for all.
The scripting and dialogue provided by the characters must become more serious but still maintain some of its comical charm.
That's about all I can think of for the moment.
 
Sergeynest said:
I think that Shenmue 4 more than anything else must excell in the Story department, in second it must have a great cast of charaters both old and new.
These two elements combined must transmit emotion and memorable moments if possible even more than in Shenmue 1 & 2.
Ryo's martial art skills must be pushed to the next level.
I would love to see Ryo train under a charismatic martial arts master, one that would remind Ryo of his father, one that would create a special bond between master and student.
Ryo would also need a partner, someone that could rival with him and help him push is martial arts skills to the next level, someone like Guizhang and a rivalry similar to that of Ryu and Ken or Goku and Krillin.
They would be intense rivals at first but with the development of the story they would become friends, almost like brothers by the end.
They should undergo an intense training regime with various exotic training methods inspired in traditional chinese martial arts training with some comical moments along the way.
I would suggest this to take place in a Shaolin temple, where Ryo would live work and train with other students. I believe this would attract new players into the franchise, since there as always been a lot of fascination for the Shaolin Monks.
They should also work hard in improving the fighting mechanics. If they can manage to make it impactfull and fluid and make the AI better, that will surelly get the attention of more people into the series.
Ryo's walking and running animations must become natural once and for all.
The scripting and dialogue provided by the characters must become more serious but still maintain some of its comical charm.
That's about all I can think of for the moment.
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By the way we also need more puzzle solving moments regarding the story of the mirrors like the one of the secret room below the Hazuki Dojo or Yuanda Zhu's room. This puzzles should be solved like in Shenmue 1, with objects that you could buy and that you would find in the game world and then later combined to solve these puzzles.
 
Sergeynest said:
I think that Shenmue 4 more than anything else must excell in the Story department, in second it must have a great cast of charaters both old and new.
These two elements combined must transmit emotion and memorable moments if possible even more than in Shenmue 1 & 2.
Ryo's martial art skills must be pushed to the next level.
I would love to see Ryo train under a charismatic martial arts master, one that would remind Ryo of his father, one that would create a special bond between master and student.
Ryo would also need a partner, someone that could rival with him and help him push is martial arts skills to the next level, someone like Guizhang and a rivalry similar to that of Ryu and Ken or Goku and Krillin.
They would be intense rivals at first but with the development of the story they would become friends, almost like brothers by the end.
They should undergo an intense training regime with various exotic training methods inspired in traditional chinese martial arts training with some comical moments along the way.
I would suggest this to take place in a Shaolin temple, where Ryo would live work and train with other students. I believe this would attract new players into the franchise, since there as always been a lot of fascination for the Shaolin Monks.
They should also work hard in improving the fighting mechanics. If they can manage to make it impactfull and fluid and make the AI better, that will surelly get the attention of more people into the series.
Ryo's walking and running animations must become natural once and for all.
The scripting and dialogue provided by the characters must become more serious but still maintain some of its comical charm.
That's about all I can think of for the moment.
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Where can I preorder this game?
 
murdiaries said:
Where can I preorder this game?
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Let's hope we can pre order it soon, but my guess tells me that we will have to wait at least another year for an oficial confirmation if it will ever happen "Fingers Crossed".
I believe that if Yu Suzuki really puts his mind, heart and Soul into Shenmue 4 that he will be able to deliver us a similar experience if not better to that of Shenmue 1 & 2. Shenmue 3 almost delivered the complete Shenmue experience if it weren't for its rushed ending.
I just hope he doesn't literally end up following "modern" gaming trends like way points, quest markers, fast travels, etc...
In fact from what I've been seeing latelly everyone is starting to get way from this type of gaming experience because everyone (Players / Game Developers, etc...) is realizing that it isn't immersive and they are now developing new ways to implement them into the gameplay experience, like per example with Ghost of Tsushima that uses the Wind as a guide for the player to reach a certain location in the map that he wants to explore.
So game developers are starting to incorporate a more realistic approach into their games in order to deliver a more immersive gaming experience, something that Yu Suzuki delivered to us 20 years ago.
I just really hope he doesn't end up going the other way around.
 
Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
If there is a Shenmue IV, I hope they bring back the tape player. I miss listening to music in game.
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Yeah; that would be great. They should have made a walkman or boombox like the one from Cool Z in Shenmue 2. That would have been a great prize that everyone would have wanted to have in Shenmue 3.
 
I hope we don't spend too much dang time on training Ryo again considering every game so far has featured a lot of "Ryo got his ass kicked AGAIN and needs to train to defeat da boss" stuff, like, I assume we will because otherwise, htf is our boy gonna beat Lan Di, but dang, did Shenmue 3 overdo that. Also Xiuying plz. Maybe she will come back to bust Ryo out of that trend and try to actually convince Ryo to not continue the cycle of violence. Maybe. Or Ryo will ignore it and return to getting the crap beaten out by every gang leader and old person in the entirety of 20th Century China.
 
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