Shenmue 3 is really amazing

[LemonHaze]

While it has a nice soundtrack and visual, it highlights my issues with Shenmue III when it comes to cutscene direction. It's like the people in charge of the cutscenes don't know how to shoot a scene. For instance, Ryo and everything is completly unlit in this scene. You can barely see anything. While I know it's because of how the lighting system works... nothing prevent them to add a light probe for aesthetical reasons either. And the scene when Elder Yah is speeking to Shenhua makes no sense. She's speaking to her yet Shenhua is just looking at the moon with Ryo. Both are standing still like nothing. No tension built, no interactions or whatsoever. It's almost as if they put the two 3D models there in still position and just used a cheap camera zoom on them. The good moment though is the boat arrival in Niaowu. I have nothing bad to say about the way that scene is shot... until the characters leave the boat.

Actually, all conversation utilize the Auto Conversation system in Shenmue III usually, except for cutscenes. In AC dialogue, all characters have light probes and reflector board implementations, however in this case it is very clearly intentional to have Ryo in this way, it is classic cinematography especially for martial arts-based storylines.

While I know it's because of how the lighting system works...

Please explain what exactly you mean, because there is no reason for additional lighting to be implemented here, and there is nothing inherent about the "lighting system" in this case.

 

[LemonHaze]

I think that many new players might be more positive than older fans.
- People these days know what they are getting, they are not getting S3 thinking it'll be a GTA clone.
- It's the gameloop and combination of systems will far fresher to them than to us.
- They might felt the story compelling, and stuff that for us that have looked every single piece of evidence which is redundant, for them are new revelations.

I honestly think it's the opposite. I have been a lurker of these forums for quite a long time and I must say, the influx of new accounts spamming S3 hatred is alarming.

The game is almost exactly like what I'd imagined it to be, Duck Heaven and all.

 

[shredingskin]

It's like the people in charge of the cutscenes don't know how to shoot a scene. For instance, Ryo and everything is completly unlit in this scene. You can barely see anything.

Honestly didn't notice that but now that you mention it feels weird, specially since they don't care that much about organic lighting (you can clearly see point lights being used in the whole scene and another spot for the "elbow assault moment", specially in the middle of the training place there are 2 light sources that don't come from anywhere).
It looks worse because in that cutscene the moon is hidden, My guess is that they tried to do "training under the moonlight" (and leaving the sillouette of Ryo under the moon), but they forgot to force full moon.
In this video looks somewhat better:
And Ye talking is clearly an ellipsis man, it's not like they are assholes lol.

 

[LemonHaze]

you can clearly see point lights being used in the whole scene and another spot for the "elbow assault moment", specially in the middle of the training place there are 2 light sources that don't come from anywhere

I don't know about that. It looks like the main light in the scene is visible on the ground and is brighter than the lights you see dotted around the training area. You can see this on the opposite side that Ryo is standing on, too. Out of curiosity, could you highlight the light sources that 'don't come from anywhere' ?

 

[GhostTrick]

Actually, all conversation utilize the Auto Conversation system in Shenmue III usually, except for cutscenes. In AC dialogue, all characters have light probes and reflector board implementations, however in this case it is very clearly intentional to have Ryo in this way, it is classic cinematography especially for martial arts-based storylines.



Please explain what exactly you mean, because there is no reason for additional lighting to be implemented here, and there is nothing inherent about the "lighting system" in this case.

What I mean, in a realistic setting, the world, with that kind of moon and torch lighting, would be pretty much unlit. Everything would be dark. But for aesthetical reasons, you can add light probes to lit the scene artificially. I'd agree on the "intentional choice" if it was the case for Ryo only. But it's the case for the entire scene. That's because they relied on the lighting system the engine has, which is a more accurate one.

As I said, look at those Shenmue II scenes I cited before to see my point.

Honestly didn't notice that but now that you mention it feels weird, specially since they don't care that much about organic lighting (you can clearly see point lights being used in the whole scene and another spot for the "elbow assault moment", specially in the middle of the training place there are 2 light sources that don't come from anywhere).
It looks worse because in that cutscene the moon is hidden, My guess is that they tried to do "training under the moonlight" (and leaving the sillouette of Ryo under the moon), but they forgot to force full moon.
In this video looks somewhat better:
And Ye talking is clearly an ellipsis man, it's not like they are assholes lol.

That light comes from the moon (even though it's supposed to be hidden). And while it's an ellipsis... it's just done bad. Heck, Ryo and Shenhua standing there looks awkward.

 

[LemonHaze]

Cutscene:


The original:


So you're right that there's extra lights which don't have a proper source. But I'm still of the opinion this is an intentional choice. It just doesn't look too out of place to say it's accidental/incompetent imo.

I would note though, it seems as though the moon light is improved when running in the cutscene.

 

[JCJ]

shenmue 3 17 years ago would’ve likely had Sega arcade games, zero fan service, the same combat as the old games, new music... just for starters. It also likely would’ve had a full budget and the support of AM2, so you’d get none of the shortcuts seen in the latest entry... I’m also guessing the grinding would be very different or absent since there’s be no reason to start Ryo out as a level 1 Kung fu artist. It would’ve been a very different game indeed

It's entertaining to imagine how that would have turned out now that we know the current Shenmue III.

I agree with all you said, but what I'm sure of is that it would have featured more scenarios than only Bailu. Maybe Niaowu would have been called Fenghuang since they wouldn't have tried to sell the game in China back then.

 

[Sh3ppy]

and the scene when Elder Yah is speeking to Shenhua makes no sense. She's speaking to her yet Shenhua is just looking at the moon with Ryo.

I genuinely think that works pretty well. They’re both contemplating their destiny while Yeh is essentially narrating behind them. I liked it. But like most things, it’s all subjective.

 

[GhostTrick]

I genuinely think that works pretty well. They’re both contemplating their destiny while Yeh is essentially narrating behind them. I liked it. But like most things, it’s all subjective.

That it's trying to tell something nice is a thing. The problem is how it's shown. And the way it's shot is bad and clumsy.

 

[spud1897]

That it's trying to tell something nice is a thing. The problem is how it's shown. And the way it's shot is bad and clumsy.

In your opinion. I personally quite like it and felt it captures Shenmue nicely.

 

[shredingskin]

Cutscene:
View attachment 7403

The original:
View attachment 7404

So you're right that there's extra lights which don't have a proper source. But I'm still of the opinion this is an intentional choice. It just doesn't look too out of place to say it's accidental/incompetent imo.

I would note though, it seems as though the moon light is improved when running in the cutscene.

I noticed that there were 3 lights coming from nowhere (looking at the falloff it seems they are spotlights and not point lights), never said it's accidental, most games have lights with no lightsource, it's to point out that the approach they took was more visual than organic.
I didn't knew those weren't under normal gameplay (except the ending spotlight), which makes it weirder.
They just tried to do the sillouette under the moon, it's a nice idea (honestly I loved the scene the first time, but after GhostTrick comment there could be some improvements).

 

[GhostTrick]

In your opinion. I personally quite like it and felt it captures Shenmue nicely.

More than my opinion, the transition between Yeh's speech and the scene is clumsy to the point it looks awkward to the point you can see how they made it: They basically used the conversation system to make her speak from that angle and already had placed Ryo and Shenhua facing the moon. It's... clumsy. And as for Ryo's practicing... Shenmue II was doing that so much better 20 years ago, it's not even funny:

You can clearly tell that the people who were in charge of Shenmue II cutscene knew a shiton of stuff when it came to scene directing. Even today, it's still a lesson in quality. (damn this game is fucking good)

 

[LemonHaze]

More than my opinion, the transition between Yeh's speech and the scene is clumsy to the point it looks awkward to the point you can see how they made it: They basically used the conversation system to make her speak from that angle and already had placed Ryo and Shenhua facing the moon. It's... clumsy. And as for Ryo's practicing... Shenmue II was doing that so much better 20 years ago, it's not even funny:

You can clearly tell that the people who were in charge of Shenmue II cutscene knew a shiton of stuff when it came to scene directing. Even today, it's still a lesson in quality. (damn this game is fucking good)

No they didn't. No cutscenes use the conversation system. This is why you'll see characters t-posing when looking out of the view of the camera.

And what you've stated is still your opinion, so it can't be any more than just that.

 

[GhostTrick]

No they didn't. No cutscenes use the conversation system. This is why you'll see characters t-posing when looking out of the view of the camera.

And what you've stated is still your opinion, so it can't be any more than just that.

Then it's even worse. Was it using the conversation system, I could've understand that as a way to avoid a black screen fading to load a different scene. It's really a clumsy directing.

 

[shredingskin]

Everytime I see that Xiuying scene I remember the dreamcast trailer with that awesome music and I'm soured they didn't use it in that scene (and they used it for what... arm wrestling ?)
The Yeh scene doesn't really bothers me at all, it's a shot to make her look ominous/prophetic while making Ryo and Shenhua look "torwards the future". For me it works.
Also, for me that whole sequence (arriving to Niaowu included) is the highpoint of the game.

 

[GhostTrick]

Everytime I see that Xiuying scene I remember the dreamcast trailer with that awesome music and I'm soured they didn't use it in that scene (and they used it for what... arm wrestling ?)
I think the Yeh scene doesn't really bothers me at all, it's a shot to make her look ominous/prophetic while making Ryo and Shenhua look "torwards the future". For me it works.

It works in theory the problem is in practice as it's instant, it looks awkward.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

In any case, user scores on Metacritic are worthless because they're easy to tamper and they dont require a proof of purchase.

Metacritic scores on the whole are worthless (with few exceptions). Publishers seek to buy favorable reviews of their products by either legally bribing them or strong arming them. Why people place value on such a system in regards to something as subjective as art (especially in the age of the internet) is beyond me.

 

[shredingskin]

I kinda see it now, using her as a reference in the next shot (after she stopped talking) is also a weird decision.
Some cutscenes are clearly more worked than others though, but I agree that S1 and S2 cutscenes were better directed.

 

[GhostTrick]

Metacritic scores on the whole are worthless (with few exceptions). Publishers seek to buy favorable reviews of their products by either legally bribing them or strong arming them. Why people place value on such a system in regards to something as subjective as art is beyond me.

Right, but then it's the integrity of a publication that is to be questionned. Not a system easy to tamper with.

I kinda see it now, using her as a reference in the next shot (after she stopped talking) is also a weird decision.
Some cutscenes are clearly more worked than others though, but I agree that S1 and S2 cutscenes were better directed.

Yeah, it should've had a transition. Or her speaking as the scene is unfolding. Or a sort of slow fade-in.
And I believe that to this day, S2 cutscenes still put the bar really high when it comes to cutscene direction.

Heck, the rooftop scene is just... ACE. Compare it with the one with Mr Muscle and you'll see how it is lacking in direction, but also in the way that, because Shenmue III lacks character developpement, you cant get that kind of shots where Ryo is remembering Xiuing's teachings nor when everyone is looking at Ryo with all those hopes and determination.

And well. That scene with Ryo and Lan Di looking at each other, with all those nice shots and that tension built up... with Ren appearing on screen and tapping Ryo's shoulder. Just so well crafted.

 

[LemonHaze]

Then it's even worse. Was it using the conversation system, I could've understand that as a way to avoid a black screen fading to load a different scene. It's really a clumsy directing.

That doesn't even make sense. Shenmue I and II do it the exact same way, in fact almost every developer does it this way. The skinned meshes you see are controlled by the scripting language which is pretty much 1:1 to what UE4's Sequencer does. It loads in the meshes, places them at their relevant positions and plays the animations.

Repeatedly stating that it's clumsy doesn't make it so.. it is still only your opinion. I think you have trouble accepting this reality.