- Joined
- Nov 22, 2021
What do you think shenmue 4’s budget will be?
In £, $ or yen most likely.What do you think shenmue 4’s budget will be?
I should point out, I don't mind hearing good criticism, but I cannot stand hyperbole which a lot of these people end up spouting. Because that's the quick and easy solution rather than intelligent debate.
The issue is that people think that Shenmue 3 is a bad game--like legendarily bad. I can name you a fundamental problem with nearly every element of the game; you might think that's hyperbole, but many of the people I named shared that same opinion to their massive audiences and, had that opinion been different, that would have made all the difference in the world (unless you mean to suggest that they're lying about their opinions).I do think it is unfair that a lot of YouTubers hold the power nowadays because they rely on negative videos to draw in people. It's a tactic as old as time; say something controversial (whether you believe it or not is secondary) and whip the fanbase up for engagement.
Yakuza generally has a sense of humor about itself which I found Shenmue 3 to possess in a way that S1 and 2 did not. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but that, combined with the archaic mechanics, weird NPC interactions, purposely stilted conversations etc. makes me think that Suzuki is at least aware of the ways in which Shenmue has been mocked over the last 20 years and instead chose to lean into it, rather than away from it.Yakuza is another example of memeification, but I think that was by accident rather than design - at least to begin with. I think it's the only recent example I can think of that nails that kind of slippery humour well.
I loved the anime, I made a whole thread detailing the differences between each episode and the games and I was very much looking forward to that being the dignified goodbye to the series for the fans. There isn't a lot to be positive about at the current moment and (without meaning to derail the thread) Shenmue 3 is (in my opinion) one of the worst modern games I've ever played and, as the sequel to my favorite game, it made me very angry that this time the series' purgatory was entirely self-inflicted. The silver lining is that Shenmue 3 was raked over the coals in such a way that it virtually guarantees that S4, should it ever exist, can only be a better game for it.What's quite interesting in your case is that I don't believe i've ever seen you make a positive comment or if I have it's been incredibly subtle.
Yes and unfortunately that's quite a big problem. Also worth pointing out that Shenmue was the best looking game for its time, so a certain percentage of its user base bought it just as a kind of novelty. This is true even today, most people never finish the games they buy.problem were the dev costs
Again, the history is complex but in spite of that Shenmue was given another chance. We got (decent) HD remasters of the first 2 games and Shenmue 3. I don't see how you can attribute the current limbo we're in to anything other than S3. You're essentially arguing the same thing I am with extra steps which is that if Shenmue 3 were a better game, then we would likely have Shenmue 4.You can't expect for Shenmue to become a hit only with Shenmue 2 Xbox.
Instead if they had continued with Shenmue 4, 5 and 6 for at least a decade...
Yes S3's $20M includes marketing/promotion but I have no idea how it was divided and I haven't seen any sources on the subject.As Suzuki said, the main bulk of the game was done with the KS money, later in development the money from deep silver arrived and the scope expanded, but we are talking for less than 10M for the real dev budget.
If only those money were all available from the start of the development...
Then we have the other funds, for example sony money were probably used just for E3 stage and promotion, epic games money were just an affair between Epic and Deep silver, and neither YSnet nor Shenmue 3 ever seen those money.
When Shenmue came out it was greeted with numerous 10/10 reviews. In fact, I'm old enough to remember when Gamespot had to change their initial score of 6/10 amidst all the hype. Hype, and the blinders that come with it, are what leads to those reviews though I would argue that Nintendo is hardly the biggest beneficiary of that tendency.Nintendo isn't some kind of magical developer, let's say it honestly, they have this aura thanks to extremist fanboys and condescending journalists.
But thanks to this exremely positive perception created around them, they have a perfect enviroment for their games from start to finish, so when their games are released, even with cut content like wind waker, basically no one cares "10/10", and sales follow suit.
They do. There are several hour + long reviews picking apart Breath of the Wild. Jim Sterling gave it a 7 for which he received massive amounts of shit. If you're wondering why they're not as vicious as the treatment S3 got, well, it's because BotW just isn't that bad. Even the bad design choices in that game stem from a logic that can be understood.Imagine if Nintendo had professional shenmue haters like us...
Yes and unfortunately that's quite a big problem. Also worth pointing out that Shenmue was the best looking game for its time, so a certain percentage of its user base bought it just as a kind of novelty. This is true even today, most people never finish the games they buy.
Again, the history is complex but in spite of that Shenmue was given another chance. We got (decent) HD remasters of the first 2 games and Shenmue 3. I don't see how you can attribute the current limbo we're in to anything other than S3. You're essentially arguing the same thing I am with extra steps which is that if Shenmue 3 were a better game, then we would likely have Shenmue 4.
Yes S3's $20M includes marketing/promotion but I have no idea how it was divided and I haven't seen any sources on the subject.
When Shenmue came out it was greeted with numerous 10/10 reviews. In fact, I'm old enough to remember when Gamespot had to change their initial score of 6/10 amidst all the hype. Hype, and the blinders that come with it, are what leads to those reviews though I would argue that Nintendo is hardly the biggest beneficiary of that tendency.
They do. There are several hour + long reviews picking apart Breath of the Wild. Jim Sterling gave it a 7 for which he received massive amounts of shit. If you're wondering why they're not as vicious as the treatment S3 got, well, it's because BotW just isn't that bad. Even the bad design choices in that game stem from a logic that can be understood.
That's true, Shenmue was a real graphical benchmark at the time, even PC games were far behind, that was one of its biggest selling points, (especially since at the time no one knew what kind of game it really was lol).
But it's the same nowadays, people are interested more in The Last of Us 2 graphics than its story...
Unfortunately Shenmue released at a time when the window for "best graphics" was quite small so the reason that Shenmue 1 was lauded when it released in 1999/2000 is because the primary point of comparison was N64 and PS1 games; by the time Shenmue 2 released on Xbox in 2002, the landscape had shifted dramatically with PS2 and Xbox. So even though it was only really a difference of two years, both of those receptions make total sense, particularly since Shenmue placed such outsized importance on graphical fidelity.Unfortunately only Shenmue 1 was blessed with hype and good press coverage.
On Shenmue 2 we had to deal with the Xbox deal and especially the end of Dreamcast
by the time Shenmue 2 Xbox released, it was treated by mags as an "old DC game".
I played the HD remasters without issue upon release and the reduced loading times have essentially rendered the DC versions all but unplayable in comparison. Even if the ports were as dire as you claim, that doesn't change the fact that a buggy good game that is eventually fixed is far more preferable to a polished turd. They also sold decently and received mostly good reviews in anticipation of S3.Thanks, I forgot the mediocre HD remaster, one of the most broken console games released on PS4 etc. that required months of patches to make it somewhat playable, but still broken.
i wish all the hate S3 received, was instead used against the HD remasters.
None of which change the ultimate state of the game. Shenmue 3 got in the hands of some of the biggest streamers and Youtubers in existence; I cannot begin to emphasize what a difference it being a good game would have made.On shenmue 3 we had the internet haters, an incompetent publisher and mags that made silly comparisons between a KS game and major AAA games...
Nintendo games do not receive good reviews because reviewers are fearful of their audience. That is the same argument used by movie fanboys who complain about how Marvel movies get good reviews while DC movies get negative reviews. The truth is that, as with Marvel at its peak, there is a baseline level of competence/quality and audience demand to Nintendo games that they rarely dip beneath.In fact Sterling received a lot of hate, but that is part of his characters (he is a professional troll lol), but I remember another reviewer that gave 7 to botw and received real threatening letters.
That alone serve as a deterrent for other reviewers from giving low scores to nintendo stuff.
I think we're just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree; life's too short. I still maintin you are talking in hyperbole as i'm almost certain that Shenmue III is better than say....Balan Wonderworld, ContraThe issue is that people think that Shenmue 3 is a bad game--like legendarily bad
Cool; thank you for giving me an example. I also loved the anime, although a couple more episodes wouldn't have gone amiss.I loved the anime
Again, I believe 'raked over the coals' is overdoing it somewhat, but I can at least agree with the latter part of what you say here. I'm certain Suzuki and co now know what works and what didn't.The silver lining is that Shenmue 3 was raked over the coals in such a way that it virtually guarantees that S4, should it ever exist, can only be a better game for it.
Surely you meant Rogue Corps, right?Contra Hard Corps
Surely you meant Rogue Corps, right?
It's not my goal to restate my opinion of S3 or try and change anyone's mind, only to illustrate that, yes, many people do place Shenmue 3 in line with those games. Though I would specify that S3 is very polished and does not suffer from many of the technical issues that plague Gollum and Balan, which is why I refuse to lay blame on the development team and cast them as a bunch of amateurs.I think we're just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree; life's too short. I still maintin you are talking in hyperbole as i'm almost certain that Shenmue III is better than say....Balan Wonderworld, ContraHardRogue Corps, Lord of the Rings Gollum etc. Is it the best Shenmue game? Not by a long shot, but I maintain there are elements of true beauty in the game marred by some bizarre choices. I think 7/10 is a perfectly reasonable score the game.
I'm glad you liked it. I was shocked to find how many people on this forum were so sour on it. I only wish they were able to use the music from the games.Cool; thank you for giving me an example. I also loved the anime, although a couple more episodes wouldn't have gone amiss.
I'm not so certain he knows, and that's why I'm so negative. For instance, I would have thought that the memes making fun of Shenmue over the last 20 years would have demonstrated to Suzuki what works and what didn't and yet even people on this forum defend the argument that S3 is some unchanged continuation of the Dreamcast games. Either there's a lot to fix or there isn't, you know?Again, I believe 'raked over the coals' is overdoing it somewhat, but I can at least agree with the latter part of what you say here. I'm certain Suzuki and co now know what works and what didn't.
That's a question that doesn't have a straight answer.@spud1897 do you think a shenmue 1&2 remake would’ve sold better than a shenmue hd considering those games are old ofc
Unfortunately Shenmue released at a time when the window for "best graphics" was quite small so the reason that Shenmue 1 was lauded when it released in 1999/2000 is because the primary point of comparison was N64 and PS1 games; by the time Shenmue 2 released on Xbox in 2002, the landscape had shifted dramatically with PS2 and Xbox. So even though it was only really a difference of two years, both of those receptions make total sense, particularly since Shenmue placed such outsized importance on graphical fidelity.
I played the HD remasters without issue upon release and the reduced loading times have essentially rendered the DC versions all but unplayable in comparison. Even if the ports were as dire as you claim, that doesn't change the fact that a buggy good game that is eventually fixed is far more preferable to a polished turd. They also sold decently and received mostly good reviews in anticipation of S3.
None of which change the ultimate state of the game. Shenmue 3 got in the hands of some of the biggest streamers and Youtubers in existence; I cannot begin to emphasize what a difference it being a good game would have made.
Nintendo games do not receive good reviews because reviewers are fearful of their audience. That is the same argument used by movie fanboys who complain about how Marvel movies get good reviews while DC movies get negative reviews. The truth is that, as with Marvel at its peak, there is a baseline level of competence/quality and audience demand to Nintendo games that they rarely dip beneath.
What didn't help is that Shenmue was created the "hard way" so it wasn't easy to port around. It had pretty detailed textures and some very high quality character models but it also had huge environments so the prospect of further games in the series would still incur a massive cost even if the graphics were no longer cutting edge. There were games at the time that had similar quality character models but then they had small environments or low detail textures etc. Shenmue has always had an issue with compromise.That's true, but don't forget that back in the days, "retrogaming" culture still wasn't a thing.
Old games were always mistreated, Shenmue 2 makes no exception being for xbox reviewers an "old game from a failed console", the genre didn't help either since they were the Halo boys.
A quick perusal of Metacritic shows 75% on PS4 (which is still higher than S3's 67%) with none of the review blurbs mentioning the quality of the port. I played it on Steam and, apart from one achievement failing to unlock that was eventually fixed, it was totally fine. I'll grant you that it was a pretty mediocre port but "destroyed a classic"? It's literally the only way I'll play the games now.A destroyed classic is a crime.
I'll never understand this claim; you think they're lying about their opinions? Super Eyepatch Wolf basically shares my exact opinion of the game and is clearly a fan of the original games. Dunkey gets 3+ million views per video regardless of content and you think he needed Shenmue of all things for easy clicks?yeah, youtubers that were loking only for easy clicks using the drama, like that wolfwhatever
Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Pokemon probably had something to do with it...The fear of audience help a lot to establish an "untouchable" brand.
What didn't help is that Shenmue was created the "hard way" so it wasn't easy to port around. It had pretty detailed textures and some very high quality character models but it also had huge environments so the prospect of further games in the series would still incur a massive cost even if the graphics were no longer cutting edge. There were games at the time that had similar quality character models but then they had small environments or low detail textures etc. Shenmue has always had an issue with compromise.
A quick perusal of Metacritic shows 75% on PS4 (which is still higher than S3's 67%) with none of the review blurbs mentioning the quality of the port. I played it on Steam and, apart from one achievement failing to unlock that was eventually fixed, it was totally fine. I'll grant you that it was a pretty mediocre port but "destroyed a classic"? It's literally the only way I'll play the games now.
I'll never understand this claim; you think they're lying about their opinions? Super Eyepatch Wolf basically shares my exact opinion of the game and is clearly a fan of the original games. Dunkey gets 3+ million views per video regardless of content and you think he needed Shenmue of all things for easy clicks?
Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Pokemon probably had something to do with it...
You would be very hard pressed to name me something that Shenmue did, apart from visuals, that Majora's Mask or Ultima 9 (both released around the same time) didn't do. The closest analogue is Cyberpunk which tried to marry the scope and simulation of GTA with the graphical fidelity of an FPS. Simply put: there is a reason that developers make compromises.That's also the shenmue essence, no other game even today dare to do all the things that Shenmue does at the same time.
You can have beautiful game nowadays that doesn't have day night cycle, or a weather system, they can be linear, they have the usual static NPCs etc.
Dunkey makes money by being funny, trustworthy, and having very informed opinions of the games he features. He's an entertainer first but that is almost always backed up solid takes. He's not just a troll, basically.I didn't know wolf, but dunkey make money by trashing games basically.
When money are involved, you should question the honesty of certain opinions.
The brand power came from those games. The mainline Mario entries are of some of the most consistent quality in the entire industry spanning multiple generations. I would agree that Nintendo (and now From Software) games have a tendency to be graded on a curve (ie: Dark Souls 3 an only really be said to deserve a perfect score if you like Dark Souls) but that's just because the audience is large and consistent with their tastes. Mario games sell tens of millions of copies, so obviously that audience's tastes count for something. Shenmue 3 can't really be said to be "perfect if you like Shenmue" since a sizeable chunk of Shenmue fans dislike it.Those are good games and no one deny it, but it's more the "brand power" that works in their favor rather then the actual quality of those games.
Personally I think Nintendo brand power comes from their awesome support to their platforms. Only Wii U pops to my mind in terms of short lived/abandoned console by them and that was due major backslash practically everywhere. Back at the day, Nintendo was supporting three consoles simultaneously (4 counting handhelds) while Sega in the other hand -which I always considered myself a fan and costumer- arrived at 128bit with three consoles abandoned in a row (5 counting handhelds). Similar to Nintendo, if one wanted their new line of releases, getting their new console was a must. Nintendo publicy stated that they would stick with N64 after Dreamcast announcement and PS2 insistent rumours. That made them gain lots of sympathies (including mine).The brand power came from those games.
Dunkey, is this you? Just joking. I think they are speaking their true opinions but with the amount of games they review I dont think they really play enough to have an accurate opinion. Well, at least he didn't called Shenmue "a pile of poo" not labeled the fans as idiots. So yes, basically Im ok with him. Same with Sterling and Wolf.Dunkey makes money by being funny, trustworthy, and having very informed opinions of the games he features. He's an entertainer first but that is almost always backed up solid takes. He's not just a troll, basically.
By the same logic, one couldn't say "Shenmue 3 is awful" since a sizeable chunk of fans like it. Personally I find myself thinking its really good game every time I play it (New Game+ really enhances the experience imho).Shenmue 3 can't really be said to be "perfect if you like Shenmue" since a sizeable chunk of Shenmue fans dislike it.
Imo, the real hard pressure would be making the extensive list of achievements made by Shenmue apart from visuals. To name a few, the way It dragged a player (talking about someone who liked the game premise) was unmatched until many years later (GTA VC maybe?) and featuring a cast of NPC with unique routines of their own making possible the feeling that an unfolded secret or missable event could be found after many playthroughs.You would be very hard pressed to name me something that Shenmue did, apart from visuals, that Majora's Mask or Ultima 9 (both released around the same time) didn't do.
It's not my goal to restate my opinion of S3 or try and change anyone's mind, only to illustrate that, yes, many people do place Shenmue 3 in line with those games. Though I would specify that S3 is very polished and does not suffer from many of the technical issues that plague Gollum and Balan, which is why I refuse to lay blame on the development team and cast them as a bunch of amateurs.