Shenmue IV Will Happen - Here's Why!

[ahmed_alency7]

What do you think shenmue 4’s budget will be?

 

[bcdcdude]

What do you think shenmue 4’s budget will be?

In £, $ or yen most likely.

 

[hyo_razuki]

At the moment, it seems as if Yu has 0 budget for S4 secured. That number is the same in any currency.

 

[iknifaugood]

I should point out, I don't mind hearing good criticism, but I cannot stand hyperbole which a lot of these people end up spouting. Because that's the quick and easy solution rather than intelligent debate.

I do think it is unfair that a lot of YouTubers hold the power nowadays because they rely on negative videos to draw in people. It's a tactic as old as time; say something controversial (whether you believe it or not is secondary) and whip the fanbase up for engagement.

The issue is that people think that Shenmue 3 is a bad game--like legendarily bad. I can name you a fundamental problem with nearly every element of the game; you might think that's hyperbole, but many of the people I named shared that same opinion to their massive audiences and, had that opinion been different, that would have made all the difference in the world (unless you mean to suggest that they're lying about their opinions).

Yakuza is another example of memeification, but I think that was by accident rather than design - at least to begin with. I think it's the only recent example I can think of that nails that kind of slippery humour well.

Yakuza generally has a sense of humor about itself which I found Shenmue 3 to possess in a way that S1 and 2 did not. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but that, combined with the archaic mechanics, weird NPC interactions, purposely stilted conversations etc. makes me think that Suzuki is at least aware of the ways in which Shenmue has been mocked over the last 20 years and instead chose to lean into it, rather than away from it.

What's quite interesting in your case is that I don't believe i've ever seen you make a positive comment or if I have it's been incredibly subtle.

I loved the anime, I made a whole thread detailing the differences between each episode and the games and I was very much looking forward to that being the dignified goodbye to the series for the fans. There isn't a lot to be positive about at the current moment and (without meaning to derail the thread) Shenmue 3 is (in my opinion) one of the worst modern games I've ever played and, as the sequel to my favorite game, it made me very angry that this time the series' purgatory was entirely self-inflicted. The silver lining is that Shenmue 3 was raked over the coals in such a way that it virtually guarantees that S4, should it ever exist, can only be a better game for it.

 

[iknifaugood]

problem were the dev costs

Yes and unfortunately that's quite a big problem. Also worth pointing out that Shenmue was the best looking game for its time, so a certain percentage of its user base bought it just as a kind of novelty. This is true even today, most people never finish the games they buy.

You can't expect for Shenmue to become a hit only with Shenmue 2 Xbox.
Instead if they had continued with Shenmue 4, 5 and 6 for at least a decade...

Again, the history is complex but in spite of that Shenmue was given another chance. We got (decent) HD remasters of the first 2 games and Shenmue 3. I don't see how you can attribute the current limbo we're in to anything other than S3. You're essentially arguing the same thing I am with extra steps which is that if Shenmue 3 were a better game, then we would likely have Shenmue 4.

As Suzuki said, the main bulk of the game was done with the KS money, later in development the money from deep silver arrived and the scope expanded, but we are talking for less than 10M for the real dev budget.
If only those money were all available from the start of the development...

Then we have the other funds, for example sony money were probably used just for E3 stage and promotion, epic games money were just an affair between Epic and Deep silver, and neither YSnet nor Shenmue 3 ever seen those money.

Yes S3's $20M includes marketing/promotion but I have no idea how it was divided and I haven't seen any sources on the subject.

Nintendo isn't some kind of magical developer, let's say it honestly, they have this aura thanks to extremist fanboys and condescending journalists.
But thanks to this exremely positive perception created around them, they have a perfect enviroment for their games from start to finish, so when their games are released, even with cut content like wind waker, basically no one cares "10/10", and sales follow suit.

When Shenmue came out it was greeted with numerous 10/10 reviews. In fact, I'm old enough to remember when Gamespot had to change their initial score of 6/10 amidst all the hype. Hype, and the blinders that come with it, are what leads to those reviews though I would argue that Nintendo is hardly the biggest beneficiary of that tendency.

Imagine if Nintendo had professional shenmue haters like us...

They do. There are several hour + long reviews picking apart Breath of the Wild. Jim Sterling gave it a 7 for which he received massive amounts of shit. If you're wondering why they're not as vicious as the treatment S3 got, well, it's because BotW just isn't that bad. Even the bad design choices in that game stem from a logic that can be understood.

 

[Suzaku]

Yes and unfortunately that's quite a big problem. Also worth pointing out that Shenmue was the best looking game for its time, so a certain percentage of its user base bought it just as a kind of novelty. This is true even today, most people never finish the games they buy.

That's true, Shenmue was a real graphical benchmark at the time, even PC games were far behind, that was one of its biggest selling points, (especially since at the time no one knew what kind of game it really was lol).
But it's the same nowadays, people are interested more in The Last of Us 2 graphics than its story...

Again, the history is complex but in spite of that Shenmue was given another chance. We got (decent) HD remasters of the first 2 games and Shenmue 3. I don't see how you can attribute the current limbo we're in to anything other than S3. You're essentially arguing the same thing I am with extra steps which is that if Shenmue 3 were a better game, then we would likely have Shenmue 4.

Thanks, I forgot the mediocre HD remaster, one of the most broken console games released on PS4 etc. that required months of patches to make it somewhat playable, but still broken.
i wish all the hate S3 received, was instead used against the HD remasters.

Every step was a compromise.

Yes S3's $20M includes marketing/promotion but I have no idea how it was divided and I haven't seen any sources on the subject.

info like these are scattered between many interviews, but when we gather all we can make some realistic guesses.

When Shenmue came out it was greeted with numerous 10/10 reviews. In fact, I'm old enough to remember when Gamespot had to change their initial score of 6/10 amidst all the hype. Hype, and the blinders that come with it, are what leads to those reviews though I would argue that Nintendo is hardly the biggest beneficiary of that tendency.

Unfortunately only Shenmue 1 was blessed with hype and good press coverage.
On Shenmue 2 we had to deal with the Xbox deal and especially the end of Dreamcast
by the time Shenmue 2 Xbox released, it was treated by mags as an "old DC game".
On shenmue 3 we had the internet haters, an incompetent publisher and mags that made silly comparisons between a KS game and major AAA games...

They do. There are several hour + long reviews picking apart Breath of the Wild. Jim Sterling gave it a 7 for which he received massive amounts of shit. If you're wondering why they're not as vicious as the treatment S3 got, well, it's because BotW just isn't that bad. Even the bad design choices in that game stem from a logic that can be understood.

In fact Sterling received a lot of hate, but that is part of his characters (he is a professional troll lol), but I remember another reviewer that gave 7 to botw and received real threatening letters.
That alone serve as a deterrent for other reviewers from giving low scores to nintendo stuff.

 

[iknifaugood]

That's true, Shenmue was a real graphical benchmark at the time, even PC games were far behind, that was one of its biggest selling points, (especially since at the time no one knew what kind of game it really was lol).
But it's the same nowadays, people are interested more in The Last of Us 2 graphics than its story...

Unfortunately only Shenmue 1 was blessed with hype and good press coverage.
On Shenmue 2 we had to deal with the Xbox deal and especially the end of Dreamcast
by the time Shenmue 2 Xbox released, it was treated by mags as an "old DC game".

Unfortunately Shenmue released at a time when the window for "best graphics" was quite small so the reason that Shenmue 1 was lauded when it released in 1999/2000 is because the primary point of comparison was N64 and PS1 games; by the time Shenmue 2 released on Xbox in 2002, the landscape had shifted dramatically with PS2 and Xbox. So even though it was only really a difference of two years, both of those receptions make total sense, particularly since Shenmue placed such outsized importance on graphical fidelity.

Thanks, I forgot the mediocre HD remaster, one of the most broken console games released on PS4 etc. that required months of patches to make it somewhat playable, but still broken.
i wish all the hate S3 received, was instead used against the HD remasters.

I played the HD remasters without issue upon release and the reduced loading times have essentially rendered the DC versions all but unplayable in comparison. Even if the ports were as dire as you claim, that doesn't change the fact that a buggy good game that is eventually fixed is far more preferable to a polished turd. They also sold decently and received mostly good reviews in anticipation of S3.

On shenmue 3 we had the internet haters, an incompetent publisher and mags that made silly comparisons between a KS game and major AAA games...

None of which change the ultimate state of the game. Shenmue 3 got in the hands of some of the biggest streamers and Youtubers in existence; I cannot begin to emphasize what a difference it being a good game would have made.

In fact Sterling received a lot of hate, but that is part of his characters (he is a professional troll lol), but I remember another reviewer that gave 7 to botw and received real threatening letters.
That alone serve as a deterrent for other reviewers from giving low scores to nintendo stuff.

Nintendo games do not receive good reviews because reviewers are fearful of their audience. That is the same argument used by movie fanboys who complain about how Marvel movies get good reviews while DC movies get negative reviews. The truth is that, as with Marvel at its peak, there is a baseline level of competence/quality and audience demand to Nintendo games that they rarely dip beneath.

 

[bcdcdude]

The issue is that people think that Shenmue 3 is a bad game--like legendarily bad

I think we're just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree; life's too short. I still maintin you are talking in hyperbole as i'm almost certain that Shenmue III is better than say....Balan Wonderworld, Contra Hard Rogue Corps, Lord of the Rings Gollum etc. Is it the best Shenmue game? Not by a long shot, but I maintain there are elements of true beauty in the game marred by some bizarre choices. I think 7/10 is a perfectly reasonable score the game.

I loved the anime

Cool; thank you for giving me an example. I also loved the anime, although a couple more episodes wouldn't have gone amiss.

The silver lining is that Shenmue 3 was raked over the coals in such a way that it virtually guarantees that S4, should it ever exist, can only be a better game for it.

Again, I believe 'raked over the coals' is overdoing it somewhat, but I can at least agree with the latter part of what you say here. I'm certain Suzuki and co now know what works and what didn't.

 

[Dietsoap]

Contra Hard Corps

Surely you meant Rogue Corps, right?

 

[bcdcdude]

Surely you meant Rogue Corps, right?

Sorry. My brain is mush as I have a stinking cold today! I'll edit!

 

[Seaman]

Imagine Shenmue IV as one of the exclusive launch titles for Nintendo Switch 2/NG. Profits for Sega which do nothing with the ip, profits for Nintendo, profits for Yu-san who could rest from the business man role and focus on his creator side. Profits for us, with all the dangerous Nintendo fans at our side keeping reviewers at line. I wish it happens like that.

 

[iknifaugood]

I think we're just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree; life's too short. I still maintin you are talking in hyperbole as i'm almost certain that Shenmue III is better than say....Balan Wonderworld, Contra Hard Rogue Corps, Lord of the Rings Gollum etc. Is it the best Shenmue game? Not by a long shot, but I maintain there are elements of true beauty in the game marred by some bizarre choices. I think 7/10 is a perfectly reasonable score the game.

It's not my goal to restate my opinion of S3 or try and change anyone's mind, only to illustrate that, yes, many people do place Shenmue 3 in line with those games. Though I would specify that S3 is very polished and does not suffer from many of the technical issues that plague Gollum and Balan, which is why I refuse to lay blame on the development team and cast them as a bunch of amateurs.

Cool; thank you for giving me an example. I also loved the anime, although a couple more episodes wouldn't have gone amiss.

I'm glad you liked it. I was shocked to find how many people on this forum were so sour on it. I only wish they were able to use the music from the games.

Again, I believe 'raked over the coals' is overdoing it somewhat, but I can at least agree with the latter part of what you say here. I'm certain Suzuki and co now know what works and what didn't.

I'm not so certain he knows, and that's why I'm so negative. For instance, I would have thought that the memes making fun of Shenmue over the last 20 years would have demonstrated to Suzuki what works and what didn't and yet even people on this forum defend the argument that S3 is some unchanged continuation of the Dreamcast games. Either there's a lot to fix or there isn't, you know?

Just as a for instance: I do not consider the bad English dub to be core to the Shenmue experience. I don't think Shenmue was ever intended to be enjoyed "ironically" and I used to make excuses for it as a product of its time. If you had told me in 2002 that Shenmue 3 would purposely contain a terrible English dub to placate fans of the series, I would not have believed you. But there we were in 2019 seeing videos of budget-starved Shenmue 3 wasting money on English voice acting every bit as terrible as before and getting made fun of even harder for it.

I bring this up because this is an example where there is no middle ground: either Suzuki thinks Shenmue is supposed to have a terrible English dub (I guess he's going for a Kung-Pow vibe?) or he's leaning into the "meme-ification" of Shenmue and putting it in because he is listening to feedback. So in that instance I welcome the negativity and want it stated as loudly as possible.

 

[ahmed_alency7]

@spud1897 do you think a shenmue 1&2 remake would’ve sold better than a shenmue hd considering those games are old ofc

 

[spud1897]

@spud1897 do you think a shenmue 1&2 remake would’ve sold better than a shenmue hd considering those games are old ofc

That's a question that doesn't have a straight answer.

Assuming the remake is good we then need to consider whether it retains the Shenmue mechanics of the originals and story is the same as the originals. If so while it may have sold more would it sell enough?

As much as we love Shenmue the pacing is what can turn some people away and it is something would need to be addressed here and in Shenmue 4. While Iwao's death is major things slow right down after for quite a while and pick up at the end. All Shenmue games do that but 2 paces things out better.

So consideration would need to be given to what sort of remake it is. If it's just a graphics overhaul then it may have sold more but then would the profit margins be as good.

 

[Suzaku]

Unfortunately Shenmue released at a time when the window for "best graphics" was quite small so the reason that Shenmue 1 was lauded when it released in 1999/2000 is because the primary point of comparison was N64 and PS1 games; by the time Shenmue 2 released on Xbox in 2002, the landscape had shifted dramatically with PS2 and Xbox. So even though it was only really a difference of two years, both of those receptions make total sense, particularly since Shenmue placed such outsized importance on graphical fidelity.

That's true, but don't forget that back in the days, "retrogaming" culture still wasn't a thing.
Old games were always mistreated, Shenmue 2 makes no exception being for xbox reviewers an "old game from a failed console", the genre didn't help either since they were the Halo boys.

I played the HD remasters without issue upon release and the reduced loading times have essentially rendered the DC versions all but unplayable in comparison. Even if the ports were as dire as you claim, that doesn't change the fact that a buggy good game that is eventually fixed is far more preferable to a polished turd. They also sold decently and received mostly good reviews in anticipation of S3.

I can assure you I still have nightmares, even when I play the originals on Dreamcast, now I expect the same bugs, crashes, broken musics etc. at any moment, and it's not an hyperbole.
If anything they should pay me for the moral damages.

A destroyed classic is a crime.

None of which change the ultimate state of the game. Shenmue 3 got in the hands of some of the biggest streamers and Youtubers in existence; I cannot begin to emphasize what a difference it being a good game would have made.

yeah, youtubers that were loking only for easy clicks using the drama, like that wolfwhatever

Besides I'm replaying Shenmue 3, and I am surprised how good the game is, even now after all these years.

Nintendo games do not receive good reviews because reviewers are fearful of their audience. That is the same argument used by movie fanboys who complain about how Marvel movies get good reviews while DC movies get negative reviews. The truth is that, as with Marvel at its peak, there is a baseline level of competence/quality and audience demand to Nintendo games that they rarely dip beneath.

The fear of audience help a lot to establish an "untouchable" brand.
Maybe the marvel comparison is fine with nintendo, they are both over inflated products with a religious fanbase, awarded by a dying industry (cinema) that nowadays can't do anything better than hero movies.

 

[iknifaugood]

That's true, but don't forget that back in the days, "retrogaming" culture still wasn't a thing.
Old games were always mistreated, Shenmue 2 makes no exception being for xbox reviewers an "old game from a failed console", the genre didn't help either since they were the Halo boys.

What didn't help is that Shenmue was created the "hard way" so it wasn't easy to port around. It had pretty detailed textures and some very high quality character models but it also had huge environments so the prospect of further games in the series would still incur a massive cost even if the graphics were no longer cutting edge. There were games at the time that had similar quality character models but then they had small environments or low detail textures etc. Shenmue has always had an issue with compromise.

A destroyed classic is a crime.

A quick perusal of Metacritic shows 75% on PS4 (which is still higher than S3's 67%) with none of the review blurbs mentioning the quality of the port. I played it on Steam and, apart from one achievement failing to unlock that was eventually fixed, it was totally fine. I'll grant you that it was a pretty mediocre port but "destroyed a classic"? It's literally the only way I'll play the games now.

yeah, youtubers that were loking only for easy clicks using the drama, like that wolfwhatever

I'll never understand this claim; you think they're lying about their opinions? Super Eyepatch Wolf basically shares my exact opinion of the game and is clearly a fan of the original games. Dunkey gets 3+ million views per video regardless of content and you think he needed Shenmue of all things for easy clicks?

The fear of audience help a lot to establish an "untouchable" brand.

Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Pokemon probably had something to do with it...

 

[Suzaku]

What didn't help is that Shenmue was created the "hard way" so it wasn't easy to port around. It had pretty detailed textures and some very high quality character models but it also had huge environments so the prospect of further games in the series would still incur a massive cost even if the graphics were no longer cutting edge. There were games at the time that had similar quality character models but then they had small environments or low detail textures etc. Shenmue has always had an issue with compromise.

That's also the shenmue essence, no other game even today dare to do all the things that Shenmue does at the same time.
You can have beautiful game nowadays that doesn't have day night cycle, or a weather system, they can be linear, they have the usual static NPCs etc.

A quick perusal of Metacritic shows 75% on PS4 (which is still higher than S3's 67%) with none of the review blurbs mentioning the quality of the port. I played it on Steam and, apart from one achievement failing to unlock that was eventually fixed, it was totally fine. I'll grant you that it was a pretty mediocre port but "destroyed a classic"? It's literally the only way I'll play the games now.

I share the same sentiment of Eigo Kasahara when he saw the mess the Uk studio did with the HD version:


"As a developer on the original games, the last thing I wanted for the re-release [of Shenmue I & II] is for them to be worse than the originals"
"There were just way too many issues"
“I’ve been putting up a fight with the overseas studio that developed it, insisting that they fix everything. If they tell me they can’t fix something, I tell them to fix it anyway.”


In fact there were issues in every department: crashes, aspect ratio issues, glitch and bugs of every genre, crushed blacks, broken cutscenes, audio issues, broken music emulation...
I'm glad the rereleases scores didn't suffer too much, as they would've compromised the sales, but if I must give a score to the porting job alone, having played both the unpatched and patched versions (still broken), it will be probably a 4/10.

I'll never understand this claim; you think they're lying about their opinions? Super Eyepatch Wolf basically shares my exact opinion of the game and is clearly a fan of the original games. Dunkey gets 3+ million views per video regardless of content and you think he needed Shenmue of all things for easy clicks?

I didn't know wolf, but dunkey make money by trashing games basically.
When money are involved, you should question the honesty of certain opinions.

Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Pokemon probably had something to do with it...

Those are good games and no one deny it, but it's more the "brand power" that works in their favor rather then the actual quality of those games.

 

[iknifaugood]

That's also the shenmue essence, no other game even today dare to do all the things that Shenmue does at the same time.
You can have beautiful game nowadays that doesn't have day night cycle, or a weather system, they can be linear, they have the usual static NPCs etc.

You would be very hard pressed to name me something that Shenmue did, apart from visuals, that Majora's Mask or Ultima 9 (both released around the same time) didn't do. The closest analogue is Cyberpunk which tried to marry the scope and simulation of GTA with the graphical fidelity of an FPS. Simply put: there is a reason that developers make compromises.

I didn't know wolf, but dunkey make money by trashing games basically.
When money are involved, you should question the honesty of certain opinions.

Dunkey makes money by being funny, trustworthy, and having very informed opinions of the games he features. He's an entertainer first but that is almost always backed up solid takes. He's not just a troll, basically.

Those are good games and no one deny it, but it's more the "brand power" that works in their favor rather then the actual quality of those games.

The brand power came from those games. The mainline Mario entries are of some of the most consistent quality in the entire industry spanning multiple generations. I would agree that Nintendo (and now From Software) games have a tendency to be graded on a curve (ie: Dark Souls 3 an only really be said to deserve a perfect score if you like Dark Souls) but that's just because the audience is large and consistent with their tastes. Mario games sell tens of millions of copies, so obviously that audience's tastes count for something. Shenmue 3 can't really be said to be "perfect if you like Shenmue" since a sizeable chunk of Shenmue fans dislike it.

 

[Seaman]

The brand power came from those games.

Personally I think Nintendo brand power comes from their awesome support to their platforms. Only Wii U pops to my mind in terms of short lived/abandoned console by them and that was due major backslash practically everywhere. Back at the day, Nintendo was supporting three consoles simultaneously (4 counting handhelds) while Sega in the other hand -which I always considered myself a fan and costumer- arrived at 128bit with three consoles abandoned in a row (5 counting handhelds). Similar to Nintendo, if one wanted their new line of releases, getting their new console was a must. Nintendo publicy stated that they would stick with N64 after Dreamcast announcement and PS2 insistent rumours. That made them gain lots of sympathies (including mine).
Speaking of facts, Breath of the Wild itself is a product born from gradually increasing critics to the overdone series formula.

Dunkey makes money by being funny, trustworthy, and having very informed opinions of the games he features. He's an entertainer first but that is almost always backed up solid takes. He's not just a troll, basically.

Dunkey, is this you? Just joking. I think they are speaking their true opinions but with the amount of games they review I dont think they really play enough to have an accurate opinion. Well, at least he didn't called Shenmue "a pile of poo" not labeled the fans as idiots. So yes, basically Im ok with him. Same with Sterling and Wolf.

Shenmue 3 can't really be said to be "perfect if you like Shenmue" since a sizeable chunk of Shenmue fans dislike it.

By the same logic, one couldn't say "Shenmue 3 is awful" since a sizeable chunk of fans like it. Personally I find myself thinking its really good game every time I play it (New Game+ really enhances the experience imho).

You would be very hard pressed to name me something that Shenmue did, apart from visuals, that Majora's Mask or Ultima 9 (both released around the same time) didn't do.

Imo, the real hard pressure would be making the extensive list of achievements made by Shenmue apart from visuals. To name a few, the way It dragged a player (talking about someone who liked the game premise) was unmatched until many years later (GTA VC maybe?) and featuring a cast of NPC with unique routines of their own making possible the feeling that an unfolded secret or missable event could be found after many playthroughs.
With this said, I agree that both Majora and Ultima IX were great.

 

[Testament]

It's not my goal to restate my opinion of S3 or try and change anyone's mind, only to illustrate that, yes, many people do place Shenmue 3 in line with those games. Though I would specify that S3 is very polished and does not suffer from many of the technical issues that plague Gollum and Balan, which is why I refuse to lay blame on the development team and cast them as a bunch of amateurs.

I want to touch on this point real quick. I know I've said as such before, but I think it's important for everyone to step outside of the fan bubble for discussions such as these-- outside of our little home here, Shenmue is largely considered a joke. That was true in the 2000's and it's true today. There have been some newer fans coming on board and that's great, but schadenfreude dictates that for a product like this, people are always going to love dunking on the negatives; i.e. the silly voice acting, weird NPCs, the unconventional game play, etc. Shenmue 3 could have really turned it around with a zinger of a game and it didn't. In fact, I'd say it might have made the situation worse.

I don't hate Shenmue 3, like even at all. And I know a lot of us here kinda like it. But never forget that outside of this forum Shenmue isn't some big gaming darling. The only people clamoring for this to continue is us.