So Last of Us 2 is getting dragged all over SNS by Users now that it's out

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Ellie has long been established as a lesbian, so it is a complete falsehood to claim this is what people have a problem with. Of course, there will always be those who take issue with this fact, irrespective of the medium, but for the vast majority? Demonstrably not, especially when you take a look at how well the Left Behind DLC was received.

The "woke agenda" thing sprung from two sources: (1) the 4chan info dump which incorrectly stated that Abby is transgender (though, going by her physical appearance, it's not hard to see how this association was made), and (2) Neil Druckmann's whole "subverting expectations" shtick and his relationship with that charlatan Anita Sarkeesian, whom he was undoubtedly influenced by. Take a look at this video and see how what he says translates into The Last of Us Part II. He flat-out states that gamers "sexualise," "objectify," and "marginalise" attractive female characters, not acknowledging for even a second the below-surface-level characteristics that make these characters beloved by so many.

So what does he go and do? Under the guise of "subverting expectations," (i.e., below average looks, male body frame, aggressive demeanour, forthright, devoid of femininity, etc.) he creates a pastiche of what he considers to be the archetypal male character - strong, capable, and heroic, only exaggerated to the point of parody, completely disregarding the myriad of female characters he was dead set on avoiding emulating who champion these very aspects - in a (barely) female body who ends up being completely unlikeable at best and hated at worst by players.

If Druckmann's hope was to become a trendsetter with regards to introducing characters who "subvert expectations" into the medium, he utterly failed. His equation was flawed and the result was, inevitably, a disaster.

Bingo. Sorry for the essay below.

The actress playing Dina (VERY attractive, btw), had her chest scaled down and facial features modified to look less-feminine (then there's the whole way they dressed her). There is a comparison pic that's blocked here at work, but all you have to do is look up her actress name (Cascina Caradonna), followed by TLOU2 and you'll see it.

Not because I'm a diehard Shenmue fan, but no female character has been better-written as strong, pro-female and NOT sexist, than Xiuying.

Probably the only thing that is somewhat sexist, is seeing her undergarments for a split second during her pattern. Otherwise:

- She is beautiful, but in an elegant and classy way; not big-chested, surgically-enhanced, dresses scantily, etc.
- She is physically and emotionally strong; she can eliminate any foe she comes across (well, up until this part in the story) and never wavers or loses her cool, always keeping a clear mind and focus.
- She is master; she didn't sleep her way to the top or use her looks to become Lishao Tao. She rose her way up to be one of Hong Kong's elder masters, solely through merit, hard work and ability.
- Any moments of weakness or vulnerability, are all related to the human condition, not due to selfishness, greed, deceit or any other negative virtue that plagues characters who have downfalls (crying because she misses her brother, showing concern over Ryo, etc.).

How is it that Yu Suzuki (and the other writers, of course) completely knocked the, "Strong Female," character out of the park, 25 years ago and the rest of the videogame world hasn't caught up (again, not to say that there haven't been characters like her since then, but nobody touches her, IMO) yet?

As many have mentioned, Abby is given male characteristics;
- butchy-look
- very masculine body type
- ruthless and physically-imposing (almost always seen in male characters).

By attempting to create a strong female, you are essentially creating a man, with a female name. This is essentially the same issue with Kaouru Sayama in Yakuza 2. Not going to get into it in-depth, but basically, giving a female character:

- a short, masculine haircut (a bob is a bob, sure, but in texts, it de-sexualizes the female)
- a characteristic where she drinks beer and talks very crass and unrefined (this is more of a reach, but how many women do you see knocking back cans of beer, cussing and speaking in a classless manner? Conjures up a visual of someone in the American South, rather than a Japanese Cop)
- a powersuit. The worst, most blatantly sexist thing you can do, from a visual standpoint lol.

Of course, the last 2 chapters show that this is all a façade and that she is really a weak-ass, mess of a character, but the writing in the game is just awful; not going to get into it now and, I digress.

I personally feel that with the political angles and SJW protests/voices/etc., people are trying to blur the distinction between male and female: "gender-fluidity," and all that (which is hilarious and bullshit). What ever happened to the idea that a female (or male, reversing the gender) CAN succeed in a gender-driven job/society/etc., that is opposite of theirs, simply by being themselves? There are a ton of real-world examples and a ton in books, films, etc. Videogames still haven't caught up, sadly and now, you are having devs like ND play into the hands of these feminists and SJW, instead of trailblazing and creating new, evolved characters and premises; just reeks of doing it for the money or the luvz.

Wanted to say, btw; I have not played either TLOU (and have 0 intention to), but seeing Dan be up in arms over this on the weekend, I read in-depth the stories and background of both games and I have the plots and characters completely downpat:

Spoiler

I absolutely agree 100% with Dan; if you want to show revenge is a bad thing, then WTF did Abby get away scot-free and able to live her life, the way she wanted? Because she, "feels remorse and empty, from getting her revenge," that is supposed to be enough to sympathise with her? TF???

How it probably SHOULD have been written, were to make Lev die or debilitate Abby in some way, so that her life changes; you know, to show that revenge is not the answer and that there are 0 winners, when revenge comes into play (which I take is Dan's outrage, as Ellie is left with nothing). Karma Houdini at its finest.

The whole thing could have been handled significantly better and I too find that it is HILARIOUS, that every major character in this game, is of the LGBT community; if that isn't supposed to pander to a specific demographic, then I don't know what is; almost as if ND were trying to play the Victim Card to have us feel bad for Ellie, when in reality, she should be exposed as just as ruthless and flawed a character as Abby; the victim card is a complete, pandering copout.

Again, Shenmue just got it right; Yuan was a tranny, Dou Niu was clearly gay. It wasn't played for laughs, it wasn't sensationalized or had liberties taken, it just fit into the story so well, us fans don't even see it as an issue or as Suzuki trying to shoehorn/sensationalise something: it's almost like a "treating the symptom, rather than the cause/illness," situation (can't really describe it, but I figure you'll know what I mean).

 

[shredingskin]

It's not about how to write female characters, it's about how "not" to write them (that's because PC culture is a censorship oriented one).

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

I’m 10 hours in and enjoying it.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Lol what the hell

Ppl complains because it's a shitty character and does something really bad and u have 0 connections. Make them straight male and would be the exact same shit.

Horizon? Who complained about Horizon? It's one of the most beloved games and actually was the greatest trailer of the PS5 presentation A WEEK AGO, and no one said anything.

People who thinks this is because girls are usually ppl who didnt touch a game in their lives because they dont know how this shit works out. There are millions that are waiting for Metroid Prime 4, HZD 2 (you just saw it), waited for a RE3 remake. Lara Crofts its great and last trilogy was praised and nobody gives a fuck its a girl. And thats a girl in front of your screen ALL the game. If a guy appears, it's just to be saved by Lara, or it's the enemy. Any problem? No, absolutely not. And btw Lara was in some kinda lesbian attitude with that girl in the first one, problems? Not at all. Because it was a good game and that's all that matters.

And hell, you even can play with girls in all the rpgs. Skyrim, Oblivion, Mass Effect.

Even AC, and thats kinda bullshit because the story and DNA stuff. Wanna have lesbian relationship? Got it. Want to fuck everything that moves? FRICKING. GOT. IT. Was that a problem? No. In fact I think everybody picked to Kassandra.

It's ridiculous. The only people who cares about race, gender and sexual orientation are actually the people who call us racists, homophobic and anti-woman. We dont look at that, we look at the game, and this game, I'm sorry, but has a shitty story. That's it. Next time maybe stop thinking in race, gender and sexual orientation of characters and focus more in write a good story. I'm not even a fan of The last of us 1 and I'm so mad, I cant imagine how is feeling a real fan.

 

[danielmann861]

Honestly, I could give two flying fucks about the gender or sexual preference of characters in any medium. All I hope is that you have a story worth telling and you aren't just doing it to make a statement or an agenda.

That was my problem with the Ghostbusters remake. It wasn't that it was an all female cast that was the problem, the problem was how much they focused on the statement. They focused so hard on shoving it down your throat that they forgot to actually tell a story of any worth. And then they wonder why the fanbase reacts in return and in turn, they try to hide behind the old "sexism" shields instead of just owning up to the fact that maybe they made a shitty story and they could have done better. It's the new way, if you make a shitty story with a diverse or female led cast and the audience reacts in turn, then it must be the audiences fault. See Star Wars. See Game of Thrones Season 8. It's a cop out to hide their own failures.

But on the other hand, I don't doubt there are some out there who just want to see an agenda in everything. There is certainly that crowd. But I tend to pay them no mind.

For me, story is king. If you don't have a decent story to go along with it then why bother? It's the same when people taut the horn of "lets gender swap established character just because." Okay, fine, do it, but you better have a good story to go with it. You better not just be doing it to make a bold statement. Otherwise people will turn on it. No one likes being lectured.

But in all honesty, I don't think men have that much of an issue excepting female protagonists or what not. Why is Ripley from Alien so loved? Why is Sarah Connor from Terminator so loved? Hell, we accepted Ellie the first time around. Why? It's because they're well written characters and NOT a statement. Which is the problem most writers have today. They're more interested in making a didactic statement than they are actually telling a compelling story.

I tend to look at the characters I respect the most in most mediums and most of them happen to be female. I love Xiuying from Shenmue II because she is a wise sage and a truly strong character at heart. She's not a statement, she's a character. And a well written one at that. That's the lesson modern day writers need to learn. Stop making statements and make characters.

Hence some of my problems with TLOU2. It's way more interested at times in making a statement than it is telling a cohesive story that makes sense.

It is so far removed from what people actually responded to in the first game and is now bordering on parody.

Anyways back to the ending for a brief minute

Spoiler

I think the gravest mistake it makes come the end is the fact that neither protagonist actually follows through and kills the other. If you're trying to blur the lines between who is the real protagonist and who is the real antagonist then you almost have to have one kill the other so there can be inner conflict about who was right and who was wrong or was it all just senseless? You have to make the player feel conflicted about what they did. But the game removes all agency from the player and never allows the player to actually make an independent choice of their own that could potentially transcend the material. And the fact that the ending doesn't have the balls to actually follow through with what it sets up is the biggest cop out of all.

 

[ShenGCH]

Hey, but seriously, any of you homophobes got the recipe for bigot sandwiches? Vegan only, by the way.

 

[OldFarT]

Got to Seattle yesterday. I have had too much fun seeing all the different death scenes. I had "too big" of a laugh when I made abby jump off a cliff.

Am really interested to see all the supposed political stuff "forced" on people because of this topic.

Am enjoying the game so far. The details on the character faces, during gameplay is really well done and react accordingly to the situation, all thanks to that awesome zoom feature.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

Okay, I was trying to avoid any spoilers in this topic, so I just skimmed over many of the replies. But what @danielmann861 just posted, I totally understand where he’s coming from, even if I don’t agree (then again, I haven’t beaten the game yet).

I’m not very analytical when it comes to stories in games. Being more of a movie guy, I’m personally much more interested in how a story can be told in a game and how it works with the game play (immersion and such), rather than the story itself. I mentioned this in the Yakuza topic, but I believe a bad story can still be good if it’s told well. Just like how a bad movie can have a great trailer. With Last of Us II, so far I’m pretty invested in it.

But I also hate doing anything for the sake of anything. In this case, and in the case of pretty much anything nowadays, it’s diversity for the sake of diversity and at the expense of the story. I’m all for diversity, believe me. But if a story forces it, then it’s an automatic red flag for me. I’ll be honest; I’m still not used to seeing Asians in any considerable role in American media (and I’m an Asian American filmmaker). And when I saw that Asian dude with Ellie at the beginning of the game, I automatically just thought to myself, “oh, here we go...”. It wasn’t a huge deal in this case, but that’s how I can relate to the topic.

All this talk sort of reminds me of the controversy surrounding Bruce Lee’s portrayal in Tarantino’s Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, about it being disrespectful and such. Lee’s daughter rallied against it, and she’s got every right to since that’s her dad that was being portrayed in the movie. What I didn’t understand was what everyone else thought was so offensive about it. I personally loved it, thinking it was just part of the story that the director wanted to tell, and he did so wonderfully. But my friends didn’t feel the same way, and they even questioned my “Asian-ness”. THAT pissed me off, and I had to explain to them that yeah, I get it. Hollywood and American mainstream media isn’t the most diverse it should be. But not everything motherfucking little thing out there is out to get you or make you look bad. It SHOULD be all about the story in the end, and if it’s told properly, then in my eyes that’s all that matters.

To the point of this topic though, it’s still too early for me to give an opinion on the controversy about The Last of Us II. I just wanted to share how genuinely interesting it is to read everyone’s views about it. Like I said, I’m not usually that observant with game stories. But I can be a bitter-ass Bret Hart motherfucker when it comes to movies.

Fuck Marvel.

 

[Yokosuka]

I am pretty sure that I would not like the game becuase I never finished the 1st one, nor I am a fan of Naughty Dog. That said, anyone with a problem with this game just because the lead character is a female and a lesbian has clear problem of homophobia. Period. In this thread you can find a lot of examples of things that are wrong with this game, and none of them is because of the sexual orientation or the gender of the main character.

Accusing games with a sexual diversity of some kind of "woke agenda" or "those evil SJW" it's a clear example of what is wrong with the gaming community, and a clear example of how toxic a part of this community is. Some people looks like anything not macho is an attack on their fragile masculinity "oh no some girls are playing Ghosbuster now" or "I can not relate to that Horizon gal, I am a real man, I live in my mother's basement but I can relate to this mega macho shooter character"... Homophophia, sexism and even racism is a real thing in the gaming community, and any times someone dares to try to tell a story with a non male main character some stupid trolls surfaces to make pig noises all the fucking time.

Thanks to those trolls and some coward companies like Rockstar, that does not want to loose those users, we lost the chancce of having a much better Red Dead Redemption 2 if they had focused the post game on Sadie Adler, for example. But it is better for the far right trolls be queit to have a real man on the cover art.

So at the end of the day probably TLOU2 is not a 10 nor a 0, but fair criticism is being ignored just because a bunch of crying incels are complaining about lesbians. Fuck off.

It's easier to defend Druckmann when you have no special relation with his games but imagine Shenmue 4 taking the same route, with some blatant change of direction from the original episode because of the creator's new politic views. Politic views that have little or nothing to do with the lore of the game. I'm not sure your words would be the same.

What's happening over the past few years in USA society is really shocking and it begins to spread into the whole West. I read about Korean developers who felt obliged to change the design of one of their enemy characters after complains saying it was a racist cliche of African savage. In fact, it was only the classic representation of African warrior in a cartoonish game.

It's like people see discrimination everywhere and feel offended for everything. Naturally they want to modify our art and our history for the sake of politics(!). We are basically entering a modern form of totalitarianism where people tend to self-censorship not to offend people A, people B and tomorrow people C. This new world is terrifying. No wonder why people are going berserk when games like TLOU 2 push the slider a little farther, it's already too far.

 

[danielmann861]

I just don't think this type of story works in video games. Not unless you go the David Cage or Telltale route where they're literally just interactive stories. Which I might argue that Naughty Dog should consider venturing into that market at this point since they're more concerned with telling film like stories than they are making games.

I see this game as a failed experiment of an overly ambitious story marred by gameplay that doesn't really allow for it to work.

I see what he is trying to do but in regards to the ending, it calls into question the whole ludo narrative dissonance topic.

Spoiler

The problem is she decides to give up on her vengeance realizing hate is pointless -- straight after a game play sequence where you are mostly encouraged to slaughter a whole bunch of NPC's standing in your way. Not to mention the countless people you've both killed along the way. Oh but violence is bad...hate leads to hate...just never mind all those countless NPC's you killed along the way though. It's where the story intent and gameplay really don't match up. It's what I mean by it wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants you to feel something but also gives you instances where you have no choice but to do what the game chastises you for.

I just don't think the ambitions of this story work well with the video game design they currently have. Unless you are giving the player actual agency over what they're doing with real consequences for their actions. Otherwise it just feels manipulative at best.

I still think Shenmue actually gets the ludo narrative thing kind of right. Everything you do in Shenmue happens for a narrative reason. You aren't just getting into fights for no reason...it's always at the behest of the story. Outside of the street contests and such, every fight in Shenmue has narrative reason to be there.

Whereas something like TLOU2, you literally have large sections where you are kind of forced to combat or stealth your way through murderous NPC's who want to kill you...and in most of those situations, it's kill or be killed. You can give a random name to them all you want to try and humanize them, but they're still just nameless NPC's who are programmed to kill you without remorse unless you either sneak by or kill them first.

I just don't think the ambitions for such a revenge story as this work well with the video game design they have and hence the feelings I have of it being completely and utterly pointless if not manipulative at best. Not unless you give agency to the player...otherwise it just feels largely manipulative.

Also, 17 hours of non stop killing and misery only to be bludgeoned with the final empty point is just overkill. Like I said, it literally got to the point where I got real tired of playing it...and it wasn't because I was disturbed by the violence or what not, I just felt it was beating the same point over and over again to the point of adnauseam. Yet never once realizing its own hypocrisy along the way.

 

[Yokosuka]

That said, TLOU 2 has a significant advantage over Shenmue when it comes to design a game based on revenge story. The TLOU2 player already knows the murdered person very well, and might even love him. I believe it's the first time in history a game offers such a cathartic experience, in theory.

RDR 1 designed a similar situation. It was brilliantly told but lasted eventually one chapter. Then you have the second chapter of Shenmue 3, with that great non-mandatory cutscene where you can see Ryo on the balcony, giving even more sense to the training made by the player so far. It was not exactly a revenge but my mind made it so.

 

[It’sShenmue3ffs]

Let's be honest, Druckmann just totally lost sight of what made the first game so special. Or he never got it. I enjoyed the game in all of the Ellie sections. I hate-played a lot of the Abby stuff. I don't want to hate playing a game just so that the Director can make a point. That gets tiresome and I was saying 'fuck this' to my TV on several occasions.

 

[danielmann861]

I think this review sums up how I feel about it best. Especially with regards to the cheap parlor tricks it pulls in attempt to make you like the other character. Not to mention the narrative woes of it being so sliced and diced and out of order for seemingly no real reason other than to look cool.

 

[BloodyHeartland]

Am I the only person questioning the retconning being done in regards to the whole cure for the virus?

At the end of the first game there are plenty of audio logs to be found expressing doubt amongst the other doctors about how effective this whole thing may turn out, how it is far more likely to fail, etc.

The only way they can make Joel look bad at all is simply to just ignore all of that, never mind poor logistics of actually treating anyone already infected and getting it to the hands of everyone especially when what’s left of the military do not like them, and that’s assuming the fireflies would actually share it to begin with. The fact they have to do this and make Joel act like it would 100% without a doubt be successful no matter what is just disgusting and flies in the face of the theme of moral ambiguity in the first game.

 

[danielmann861]

Am I the only person questioning the retconning being done in regards to the whole cure for the virus?

At the end of the first game there are plenty of audio logs to be found expressing doubt amongst the other doctors about how effective this whole thing may turn out, how it is far more likely to fail, etc.

The only way they can make Joel look bad at all is simply to just ignore all of that, never mind poor logistics of actually treating anyone already infected and getting it to the hands of everyone especially when what’s left of the military do not like them, and that’s assuming the fireflies would actually share it to begin with. The fact they have to do this and make Joel act like it would 100% without a doubt be successful no matter what is just disgusting and flies in the face of the theme of moral ambiguity in the first game.

Nah, I noticed it too man. I noticed it too. Hence why in my initial post I said it pissed on the ending of the first game by taking away the one thoughtful thing it had going for it -- was it right or wrong of Joel to do?

But it's also one of those things, do they take those audio logs as cannon? I personally do hence why I partially hated the sequel.

Should have left it at one and done but money talks..

 

[Ren]

Bingo. Sorry for the essay below.

The actress playing Dina (VERY attractive, btw), had her chest scaled down and facial features modified to look less-feminine (then there's the whole way they dressed her). There is a comparison pic that's blocked here at work, but all you have to do is look up her actress name (Cascina Caradonna), followed by TLOU2 and you'll see it.

Not because I'm a diehard Shenmue fan, but no female character has been better-written as strong, pro-female and NOT sexist, than Xiuying.

Probably the only thing that is somewhat sexist, is seeing her undergarments for a split second during her pattern. Otherwise:

- She is beautiful, but in an elegant and classy way; not big-chested, surgically-enhanced, dresses scantily, etc.
- She is physically and emotionally strong; she can eliminate any foe she comes across (well, up until this part in the story) and never wavers or loses her cool, always keeping a clear mind and focus.
- She is master; she didn't sleep her way to the top or use her looks to become Lishao Tao. She rose her way up to be one of Hong Kong's elder masters, solely through merit, hard work and ability.
- Any moments of weakness or vulnerability, are all related to the human condition, not due to selfishness, greed, deceit or any other negative virtue that plagues characters who have downfalls (crying because she misses her brother, showing concern over Ryo, etc.).

How is it that Yu Suzuki (and the other writers, of course) completely knocked the, "Strong Female," character out of the park, 25 years ago and the rest of the videogame world hasn't caught up (again, not to say that there haven't been characters like her since then, but nobody touches her, IMO) yet?

As many have mentioned, Abby is given male characteristics;
- butchy-look
- very masculine body type
- ruthless and physically-imposing (almost always seen in male characters).

By attempting to create a strong female, you are essentially creating a man, with a female name. This is essentially the same issue with Kaouru Sayama in Yakuza 2. Not going to get into it in-depth, but basically, giving a female character:

- a short, masculine haircut (a bob is a bob, sure, but in texts, it de-sexualizes the female)
- a characteristic where she drinks beer and talks very crass and unrefined (this is more of a reach, but how many women do you see knocking back cans of beer, cussing and speaking in a classless manner? Conjures up a visual of someone in the American South, rather than a Japanese Cop)
- a powersuit. The worst, most blatantly sexist thing you can do, from a visual standpoint lol.

Of course, the last 2 chapters show that this is all a façade and that she is really a weak-ass, mess of a character, but the writing in the game is just awful; not going to get into it now and, I digress.

I personally feel that with the political angles and SJW protests/voices/etc., people are trying to blur the distinction between male and female: "gender-fluidity," and all that (which is hilarious and bullshit). What ever happened to the idea that a female (or male, reversing the gender) CAN succeed in a gender-driven job/society/etc., that is opposite of theirs, simply by being themselves? There are a ton of real-world examples and a ton in books, films, etc. Videogames still haven't caught up, sadly and now, you are having devs like ND play into the hands of these feminists and SJW, instead of trailblazing and creating new, evolved characters and premises; just reeks of doing it for the money or the luvz.

Wanted to say, btw; I have not played either TLOU (and have 0 intention to), but seeing Dan be up in arms over this on the weekend, I read in-depth the stories and background of both games and I have the plots and characters completely downpat:

Spoiler

I absolutely agree 100% with Dan; if you want to show revenge is a bad thing, then WTF did Abby get away scot-free and able to live her life, the way she wanted? Because she, "feels remorse and empty, from getting her revenge," that is supposed to be enough to sympathise with her? TF???

How it probably SHOULD have been written, were to make Lev die or debilitate Abby in some way, so that her life changes; you know, to show that revenge is not the answer and that there are 0 winners, when revenge comes into play (which I take is Dan's outrage, as Ellie is left with nothing). Karma Houdini at its finest.

The whole thing could have been handled significantly better and I too find that it is HILARIOUS, that every major character in this game, is of the LGBT community; if that isn't supposed to pander to a specific demographic, then I don't know what is; almost as if ND were trying to play the Victim Card to have us feel bad for Ellie, when in reality, she should be exposed as just as ruthless and flawed a character as Abby; the victim card is a complete, pandering copout.

Again, Shenmue just got it right; Yuan was a tranny, Dou Niu was clearly gay. It wasn't played for laughs, it wasn't sensationalized or had liberties taken, it just fit into the story so well, us fans don't even see it as an issue or as Suzuki trying to shoehorn/sensationalise something: it's almost like a "treating the symptom, rather than the cause/illness," situation (can't really describe it, but I figure you'll know what I mean).

I voted for Xiu Ying and all of you that voted for Ren are misogynist!!!!

I am going to post this on Twitter

Because you know Shenmue is a transphobic bad game and should be banned!!
by having a misogynist Incel with "Toxic Masculity" called Ren to kick this "Brave" Strong Woman!!!
Why?? Because she leads other men and is a Strong Female figure.

I am triggered now and going to post this on twitter!
and get this game Banned ASP! #BanShenmueTransphobic #YuMisoginist #RenInCel #StrongAndBraveYuan

 

[Ren]

It's easier to defend Druckmann when you have no special relation with his games but imagine Shenmue 4 taking the same route, with some blatant change of direction from the original episode because of the creator's new politic views. Politic views that have little or nothing to do with the lore of the game. I'm not sure your words would be the same.

What's happening over the past few years in USA society is really shocking and it begins to spread into the whole West. I read about Korean developers who felt obliged to change the design of one of their enemy characters after complains saying it was a racist cliche of African savage. In fact, it was only the classic representation of African warrior in a cartoonish game.

It's like people see discrimination everywhere and feel offended for everything. Naturally they want to modify our art and our history for the sake of politics(!). We are basically entering a modern form of totalitarianism where people tend to self-censorship not to offend people A, people B and tomorrow people C. This new world is terrifying. No wonder why people are going berserk when games like TLOU 2 push the slider a little farther, it's already too far.

This is not just USA, it seems to be global.
Other Countries in South American, Caribbean islands, Central America, Canada, Eastern Europe like Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Spain, UK, Australia etc.
This starts in Universities then moves to media and finally in government to implement certain forced laws.
If you are interested in learning exactly how it works check this video.

Let's be honest, Druckmann just totally lost sight of what made the first game so special. Or he never got it. I enjoyed the game in all of the Ellie sections. I hate-played a lot of the Abby stuff. I don't want to hate playing a game just so that the Director can make a point. That gets tiresome and I was saying 'fuck this' to my TV on several occasions.

This was the main reason game was ruined. They hire a SJW radical feminist as a consultant for the game.
Who constantly complains about female video character in games, when she barely played games in her life and lie about it.
She is in "relationship" with Druckmann, so you can see how he was influenced.

They basically did the same thing they did in Terminator Dark fate kill all the men, Kill the main white male protagonist (John Connor) and replace him with a female.
Which is what exactly happened in TLOU2

 

[Tosh]

Okay, i have finished it now and honestly its like i dont feel anything.
Am i supposed to feel sad or happy or what after that ending? I really dont know.
Normally when i finish story games, i feel something, for example i'm sad when a really good game ends
or i am surprised because of twists or whatever. But finishing Last of Us 2 didnt do anything for me.
It felt like this game already ended like 2 or 3 times before i saw the actual ending.
It felt like it was going on forever for no reason.

I dont really understand the point of this game. Is it about revenge?
Is it about friendship or love? Is it about forgiving someone? Is it about your worst enemy being only human or yourself?
None of these categories have a fulfilling part in this game.
Its a little bit here, a little bit there, right, left, up, down. Just pick something.
I feel like at least 50-75% of this whole game script was designed around controversial events.
Like they knew exaclty what people liked about Last of Us 1 and they thought it would be so clever
to give people nothing of that in part 2, because its so dark, edgy, fresh and surprising.

But whats the main goal of the story? If you look behind those calculated events and scenes,
is there really a clear story that has a clear powerful meaning or does it just feel deep because of the heavy scenes?
I'm not even sure if i am supposed to like the main characters in this game or not.
I think i didnt even like one single person in this game.
And not because of gay couples or whatever, too be honest,
there were points where i was more on Abbys side. Not because i liked her but because everyone else was worse.
Ellie was just annoying.
Like the decisions she made a couple of times, there were some moments where i would have left the cinema
if this was a movie instead of a game. And its not even explained very well or anything,
its just so um yeah we are so dark and sad and fresh here, lets do this.

All this stuff, Joel, how Ellie is growing up, insecurity about love, the bad, scary and brutal muscular woman
who actually is pretty nice, religious groups that are against modern life,
killing hundreds of people in super brutal ways so that the game can make you feel like
you are part of the problem and so on, it feels all so forced and calculated.
Like they had some check up list where they made a checkmark
for everything that a super fresh deep 2020 game needs but they forgot to write a actual A to B
story to support the checkmarks.

I dont know man, i'm all in for story games and i like tons of different stuff from all over the world,
but the Last of Us 2 story was a total waste of time in my opinion.
Its a calculated, ballooned, wannabe dark and edgy fan fiction.
Just my opinion btw, please keep your torches and pitchforks at home.

 

[danielmann861]

I think their ultimate goal is to say that Abby and Ellie are one in the same. Both burdened by daddy issues that drove them to hate. They want you to feel something for both of these women so that way you actually feel conflicted come the end. But as I mentioned above, it's liked they copped out and they couldn't follow through with letting or forcing the player to kill one or the other and gave 'em both a way out. Someone on Neogaf mentioned to me that they both find redemption in choosing not to kill the other. But I don't really see it and if that's what they were going for then it's not really well conveyed.

Abby never struck me as being conflicted about killing Joel. Maybe if they had actually made that a inner turmoil for her, as in it was something she was wrestling with, then I might be able to see the redemption arc. But it all feels so cheap and manipulative. They want you think that deep down Abby is a good person therefore her actions can either be excused or justified. Abby's a good person because she loves playing with her dog (the dog that you are forced to kill as Ellie mind you.) Abby's a good person for saving these kids. You must feel something for Abby even though one of her friends blatantly calls out her shit (for sleeping with Owen and what not)....if they were going for a redemption ark then I didn't see it.

Or they didn't make it clear. After all, she almost kills Dina with relish, even after hearing the pregnancy bit. She is never once seen wrestling with her actions of killing. At least Ellie had something of a conscience about what she was doing. Maybe if Abby were actually wrestling with the aftermath of her actions then I could understand and maybe feel something. But yeah, I didn't see it.

As for Ellie. she seems so consumed by her need for vengeance that the only viable outcome is her getting it. For better or worse, Abby has to go and I'm not just saying that because of Joel, but if you're trying to tell the tale of how hate consumes you, then you've got to go with that ending of her killing Abby. Then you come full circle in actually showing how these two women are alike and how their need for vengeance ultimately destroys them both. Then you have a true tragedy on your hands. But it's like they copped out at the end and they couldn't bring themselves to kill either. I could understand this if Ellie came to the gradual realization during her journey that this is all worthless, but she seemingly only just remembers one conversation with Joel and suddenly she's cured of all her hate and anger? She's found redemption?

The setup is there to tell a tragedy that comes full circle but the story cops out and ultimately becomes a mess in its need to outsmart your expectations. Resulting in a story that is completely contradictory with any real thought put behind it.

I get what it wants to do, it wants to paint the picture that both these women are one in the same and how hate leads to hate. But the game contradicts itself by copping out at the end by not ending with the logical ending. That one has to kill the other for it come full circle and become the tragedy it is setting itself up to be. That if you really want to challenge your audience, you have to make Abby redeemable, likable and then conflict your audience by having Ellie kill her in cold blood resulting in tragedy. And then have that cold realization that vengeance will leave you empty. See the film Sympathy for Mr Vengeance if you want to see a really good example of how to tell this tragedy of a story.

Not to mention, the contradiction it presents. That one character can allow their hate to win and achieve their vengeance while walking away somewhat redeemed while the other loses everything even though she comes to the realization that vengeance is not the way. So what's it saying? Vengeance is justice for Abby but Vengeance is pointless for Ellie? So what point are you trying to make here? It's clearly not that vengeance is pointless when one person gets away with their vengeance and still finds redemption.

Gone is the setup that both women are one in the same and their actions will end in tragedy because ironically they both couldn't forgive and let live and in its place is something completely contradictory. It's like they copped out or tried to outsmart their audience and lost all meaning of the story they were clearly setting up.


The Seraphites and WLF war is interesting and feels like it should have been the game on its own but it doesn't really tie into the vengeance plot at all. It just feels like it's there either because they wanted to do something different or it's a cheap parlor trick to try and make Abby sympathetic. But I fail to see how ties into the vengeance plot and it feels like a detour that almost should be its own story.

The first impression of Abby is she literally kills the beloved protag of the first game. You're already facing an uphill battle to make her empathetic as is, but I don't think they ever pulled it off and the fact that you did is maybe only because the other characters are mere shadows of their former selves. It all felt like cheap parlour tricks to try and show she isn't that bad a person. I understand her motivations and why she thinks she is right in doing what she did, but it's hard to care about this character when you're already so invested in Joel after playing as him and coming to understand his actions.

Unless you were on the side of "Joel Bad Man. Joel doomed human race." Then maybe you feel something for Abby. Which I feel like Druckman kind of is. I think Druckman does believe that Joel is the bad guy and kind of deserves it.

The male characters in this game do not come off well. I think Jesse is the only likable character in the game, but even he doesn't get a fair treatment as he is killed off. The writing behind Tommy is laughably bad. I really can't tell you how much I hated that farm scene where he guilt Ellie into finishing the job even though he literally was trying to talk her out of it at the beginning of the game...it's like they wrote themselves into a corner and just needed an excuse for one more set piece.

I'm with you Tosh. It just feels completely and utterly pointless. Like I spent 17 hours on a game that feels like it was a first draft. Too many ideas crammed in and no focus to bring it all together in any meaningful way. The most I could take from it is hate breeds hate and we're gonna bludgeon you over the head for 20 hours or so making you feel either nothing or miserable for playing our game but secretly relishing the violence we can show because look how technically adept we are. Before ultimately copping out with an ending that feels unearned.

The setup is there to tell a classic tragedy. But in their need to subvert your expectations, they end up with something that feels completely contradictory.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

there were some moments where i would have left the cinema

Looool

Can you be more specific? Remember anything puntual?

I dont really understand the point of this game. Is it about revenge?
Is it about friendship or love? Is it about forgiving someone? Is it about your worst enemy being only human or yourself?
None of these categories have a fulfilling part in this game.

We have a say in Spanish, because a Mexican series:
"La venganza nunca es buena,
mata el alma y la envenena".

Translation would be something like:
"Revenge isnt good,
kills the soul and poisons it".

That's the point of the game. It's okay, but that series teached me that in the 70's. No need of doing this, thanks but no thanks Neil. Next time do a new IP.