Were you happier with no Shenmue III? Or do you prefer living in a post-Shenmue III world?

[danielmann861]

Nobody said that, actually everybody agreed SIII it's the worst of the saga. But that doesn't mean it's not a good game, at least it's what the majority here thinks.

About the story, like we said here a million of times, Yu Suzuki said ten years ago this game won't be about story. If you don't like it, then you just don't like the vision of Yu and it's fine.

I actually think I'd rate Shenmue III above the original game.

I know people here are gonna call me crazy, but if I had to rank the three games it would be

Shenmue II -> Shenmue III -> Shenmue.

There are things about the original game that are really hard to go back to. It will always hold a place in my heart, but the methodical pacing is a chore at times. The fork lift section is a chore. You are locked in for a week with nothing else to do but drive a forklift back and forward. Got to be honest, it got a bit tiresome in my last playthrough.

I think the original game is an awesome proof of concept but SII was the one that felt like it was starting to understand what it actually was. The original game always felt a bit unsure of itself and trying to find its way...where as the second game took the concept to another level. III was somewhere between I and II. It had the gameplay philosophy of II but was also trying to stretch out a relatively thin plot much like the original game.

Even with all its issues, I think I had more fun just playing and living in III's world. The nightly conversations with Shenhua still stand out to me. Again, there's more to see and do. Whether it be herb collecting or lazily fishing the days away or practising the WUDE and training every day or doing the various side quests littered throughout town. Sure, the plot may be filler, but in terms of actually playing the game? I think I enjoyed III more than the original game.

Sure, II is still the peak of this series by far for me, but yeah, I'd give III the slight edge over the original game.

Call me crazy if you must.

 

[danielmann861]

I’m not arguing that Shenmue 3 wasn’t a good game. Personally, I really enjoyed it and thought that they did a fantastic job in many areas given the circumstances surrounding development. I do think it’s a bit unfair to dismiss critics as having unrealistic expectations though when some of their criticisms are valid.

Oh I'm not dismissing all criticisms...but I do think it is a bit foolish to expect things that maybe were a little out of reach due to budget or staff experience.

I have those criticisms too. The cuts to black are jarring. But within III, while its easy to focus on the negative, let's not forget there are those wonderful moments such as Ryo training in the moonlight that do remind you of that Shenmue charm...like I said, I think the game is massively inconsistent and I do have to wonder how much of that boils down to the experience of the staff on hand? Which again comes down to budget. You don't have a budget for the top guys in the field so you kind of get stuck with what you have, I guess. Which is a range of talent and a range of experience.

But true, budget doesn't excuse all issues with the game. It maybe excuses the presentation, but budget is no excuse for the story issues and such.

 

[I Got Sriracha In My DNA]

Count me in the crazy farm as well then. I too actually think Shenmue 3 is better than Shenmue 1. Objectively speaking, relative to its time, Shenmue 1 is more impressive but I've enjoyed playing through Shenmue 3 much more than 1. 1 is a bit of a chore and frankly the story is meh in that one too. Legit not trying to knock Shenmue 1 down. I absolutely respect and adore it, I just don't care for it the way I do with 2 and 3.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Well we should compare them knowing the context, it's not the same Shenmue in 1999 than now... But that's a for another topic (who opens it?). And it's not the same "X it's better " than saying "I enjoyed more Y"

Anyway, what I'm saying about that, it's that the dojo said the game it's a 7-8 https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-do-you-rate-the-game-1-10.2323/

So it's a good game, not a 10/10 game, and we DO say things wrong about it. So no, I'm not saying you cant say you don't like it, I'm just saying some people of the dojo are acting like if it's a 3/10 game, and it's not. It's fucking not.

There's a mid point between "MASTER PIECE 10/10 YU SUZUKI PLEASE MAKE ME A CHILD I'M ALL YOURS" and "wtf is this piece of shit, 20 years for this?".

 

[danielmann861]

Well we should compare them knowing the context, it's not the same Shenmue in 1999 than now... But that's a for another topic (who opens it?). And it's not the same "X it's better " than saying "I enjoyed more Y"

Anyway, what I'm saying about that, it's that the dojo said the game it's a 7-8 https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-do-you-rate-the-game-1-10.2323/

So it's a good game, not a 10/10 game, and we DO say things wrong about it. So no, I'm not saying you cant say you don't like it, I'm just saying some people of the dojo are acting like if it's a 3/10 game, and it's not. It's fucking not.

Oh I very much agree on that whole heartedly. I'm just saying, for me, I honestly don't think it's the worst in the series. For me personally, I'd probably put it above the original game.

But I do agree with that sentiment whole heartedly. It's not a 3 out of 10 game. (for me, it's somewhere around a 7 or 8 out of 10...which is where I would also rate the original game objectively speaking)

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Oh I very much agree on that whole heartedly. I'm just saying, for me, I honestly don't think it's the worst in the series. For me personally, I'd probably put it above the original game.

But I do agree with that sentiment whole heartedly. It's not a 3 out of 10 game. (for me, it's somewhere around a 7 or 8 out of 10...which is where I would also rate the original game objectively speaking)

Of course. When I said "everybody agreed" I wanted to say "in general". But my point wasn't that, my point it's "dude we gave it a 7-8 out of ten, we are happy, we are not pissing our pants of joy, some people are tho, stop this myth full of bullshit. Because behind that message it's another message saying "you guys would love any poop out of Yu's ass". And the dojo it's not acting like that. We are just happy because the game, knowing could be better, worst, could not exist, etc etc.

 

[Rydeen]

I can't imagine even the most die-hard S3 fan being tasked with multiple $1000+ grind quest thinking to themselves "yep, this is what Shenmue means to me, definitely what I waited 18 years for."

Even with playing on Hardest difficulty up to the last fight in Bailu, I never had to grind for money at those segments precisely because I played it like a Shenmue game. Jus’ sayin’. I didn’t even know there were automatic cutscenes in Niaowu about making money, because I was walking around with 12000 yuan at that point, and 50000+ tokens. I didn’t know there was a money exploit until well after I finished SIII, either (not that I would have used it anyway).

I can provide insight into how it usually goes (which is basically the same as a movie: storyboard> rough cut> polish) but I can't provide insight into how it worked on S3, like how/when/why the location of fighting Mr. Muscles changed. But no, cutscenes aren't hard to implement, the "hard" part (and the reason most indie games don't use them) is getting the assets; if you have the locations, character models, dialogue, story beats, and animations then you're like 90% of the way there. Just plan out your cameras, timing, and lighting (which is largely derived from the location) and you're good.

Now what happens if you, like YS, spend an obscene amount of time trying to polish cutscenes like pearls, constantly reworking the cuts, camera angles, sweeps, timings, animations, etc, to be perfect, but don’t have anywhere near the same level of ‘man-power’ to execute it? The sequence outside of Lan Di’s quarters are probably a perfect example of how corners had to be cut: Just watch the difference in animation quality between the lesser cutscene where Ryo and Ren turn to look at each other outside the door, and the more ‘produced’ QTE cutscene that immediately follows it. That’s pretty consistent throughout the game. The main story cutscenes have production values that at least approach the first two games (I personally feel the fight choreography exceeds them, and could almost pass for live-action film choreo) and the rest look like a game on a seriously constrained budget. Sure, that fits your assessment of them being uneven, but that seems rather to be expected to me.

Did you know that S3 confirms that there are multiple Shenmue trees? You know how it does it? In a journal entry...

Did you know that it confirms it by literally showing you another Shenmue? In the game. I guess if you can’t use inductive reasoning, there’s a journal entry, though.

It's just so unengaging. The purpose of a scene like this (finally getting to talk to someone who you've been searching for the whole game) is to have a payoff. S2 did this by having Yuanda Zhu tell Ryo and the whole cast about the mirrors but he did it in an interesting way where the lights went out and he showed something interesting (and we got to see the characters react to it). There was an air of mystery and it was shown to us in a visually engaging way.

S3 by contrast, pans across a boat where Ryo talks to Yuan in a completely empty room and then bizarrely flashes back to Ryo, still on the boat, remembering a conversation on the boat. It's really weird.

Do you think it could be possible that you just failed to engage with it? Do you think Ryo could have been shown looking off into the sunset, from the side of the boat, with body language to insinuate that Ryo is reflecting on his conversation with En, his fight with Lan Di, and everything else that led him to this point, for a poetic purpose?

I do think it is a bit foolish to expect things that maybe were a little out of reach due to budget or staff experience.

Also, let’s adjust for 20 years of inflation and see the true extent of the difference in budget.

Sure, II is still the peak of this series by far for me, but yeah, I'd give III the slight edge over the original game.

Same, honestly.

 

[danielmann861]

I can't imagine even the most die-hard S3 fan being tasked with multiple $1000+ grind quest thinking to themselves "yep, this is what Shenmue means to me, definitely what I waited 18 years for."

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sorry, but didn't we do the EXACT same thing in Shenmue II? I seem to remember grinding for money quite a bit in Shenmue II. Many points where you needed large sums of cash to progress. Almost like cash was the new time mechanic in Shenmue II. It was what? $500 to meet Ren. Then something like another $500 to enter the first important street fight in Kowloon to keep going forward. Not to mention all the money you needed to grind if you wanted to buy moves in that game as some of the moves were pretty pricey.

Sounds like exactly what Shenmue II did to me. Sure, you could criticise those methods if you like. Nothing is above criticism. But to act like this isn't exactly what we did in the previous game (mind you Shenmue II is considered the peak of this series even though it has many of the same tricks in terms of its gameplay) is kinda foolish.

That's the funny thing about saying "this is what Shenmue means to me"...it means something different to EVERYONE. To me, this was no different to what II did. Maybe that's why I had no problem with it. It's the least of that games problems for me.

I'll say this. To me, Shenmue is less about the destination and more about the journey itself. After hearing Yu speak about it more and more...I kind of get it better than ever and understand why it is so personal to him...it's a complete reflection of his journey across China in the process of making Virtua Fighter. It's him reflecting that same journey through a fictional tale. Maybe that's why he is less concerned with plot and more interested in reflecting that journey? I mean I'm not saying its above criticism, but I think that's what Shenmue is to me. It's less about the destination and more about the journey. I've felt that way ever since I first played SII and had that moment of it clicking (if you will)

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Oh it isnt? Could you tell me why please? I would like a proper breakdown, with examples of how this is so.



Oh really? Cool. Could you provide me with some insight into the process of the development of that aspect of video gaming? Conception>execution>implementation would be enough, from your own experience of course? I mean, you clearly work in the industry right? Develop games at least.



Guess i was wrong to presume. I didnt realise you worked on both the original games, as well as Shenmue 3. Or at least, worked on videogames 20 years ago, know the methodology inside out, and are able to compare it to game development in 2020?



I was just going to flat out hit the warn button, but i will just quote some of your post, and wait, to see if you reveal yourself as an original member of AM2. You certainly talk the talk, or at least talk the talk of a game developer.

But lets be honest and clear here; i am absolutely, 100% fed up of you coming into so many topics on these forums and just taking a massive shit, not only on the game, but on the development of this game, and the people that actually enjoy it. When people disagree with your negative viewpoints, you speak down to them with nothing but descent. No middle ground. No appreciating where they are coming from. It's your way or the highway, and i for one have had enough.

Read that sentence again, i mean...



Sorry, but what bollocks is this? Is that a sentence we are all to understand? Who the hell cares about what you asked for in cut scene quality? Who the hell cares about what you want in general? Even if your demands were entertained, you want the cut scene quality "of a 20 years old game."? What?

I am going to make this very crystal clear: Stop typing words just to give yourself a sense of superiority over others on these boards. For the absolute last time, this ends now, and there will be no more verbal guidance. You will be warned. If you cannot see the arrogance in your communication with others on these forums, then there is pretty much nothing else anyone can do around here to help.

DUDE

DUDE STOP

ST...

STOP HE'S DEAD MATE STOP IT THATS ENOUGH

I'll say this. To me, Shenmue is less about the destination and more about the journey itself

Wait a sec, it wasn't about that all this time...? I thought everybody were here because of the journey.

No way boys, did somebody really expected for an existentialist blow-mind pretentious plot twist like evangelion?

LOOOOOOOL, I'm starting to understand a few things right now...

 

[GhostTrick]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sorry, but didn't we do the EXACT same thing in Shenmue II? I seem to remember grinding for money quite a bit in Shenmue II. Many points where you needed large sums of cash to progress. Almost like cash was the new time mechanic in Shenmue II. It was what? $500 to meet Ren. Then something like another $500 to enter the first important street fight in Kowloon to keep going forward. Not to mention all the money you needed to grind if you wanted to buy moves in that game as some of the moves were pretty pricey.

Sounds like exactly what Shenmue II did to me. Sure, you could criticise those methods if you like. Nothing is above criticism. But to act like this isn't exactly what we did in the previous game (mind you Shenmue II is considered the peak of this series even though it has many of the same tricks in terms of its gameplay) is kinda foolish.

That's the funny thing about saying "this is what Shenmue means to me"...it means something different to EVERYONE. To me, this was no different to what II did. Maybe that's why I had no problem with it. It's the least of that games problems for me.

I'll say this. To me, Shenmue is less about the destination and more about the journey itself. After hearing Yu speak about it more and more...I kind of get it better than ever and understand why it is so personal to him...it's a complete reflection of his journey across China in the process of making Virtua Fighter. It's him reflecting that same journey through a fictional tale. Maybe that's why he is less concerned with plot and more interested in reflecting that journey? I mean I'm not saying its above criticism, but I think that's what Shenmue is to me. It's less about the destination and more about the journey. I've felt that way ever since I first played SII and had that moment of it clicking (if you will)

No one said that Shenmue II didn't have money paywalls. But there was a lot more to it than paywalls. And at least, they managed to make it, narrative wise, different. That whole street fight segment in II was rather cool in fact. You had to pretend to be a street fighter who wanted to join the Yellow Heads. It introduced a lot of cool fights and even one cool character, even if they barely have any lines. And there were a lot of nice cool scenes too.

As you said, Shenmue is not about the destination. I don't think many people here care about the ending. I feel like, most of us, can almost tell what'll happen in the end. People don't expect Shenmue for a deep, brillant story that'll blow your mind.

But a journey in which you meet people and a journey in which Ryo grows up as he meet those people. People, places and scenes.

When people say "It's not what they expected", it doesn't mean that there wasn't any of those elements in I and II. I don't think Shenmue I and II were about forklifts, jobs and mini-games. Yes, they were a more or less big part of those games. But, as far as I'm concerned and I think many others too, I didn't play those games for those stuff. They were fine to have. But they weren't the core experience, what I played it for. It's not a surprise that it's a complaints that often comes about Shenmue III. When there's smoke, there's fire. Maybe it's wrong, but some people feels like in 3, priorities were given to things that are secondary to the journey. Jobs, mini games and forklifts weren't the passionating things in Shenmue. They were here. They were part of the experience. But they weren't the main draw.

Wait a sec, it wasn't about that all this time...? I thought everybody were here because of the journey.

No way boys, did somebody really expected for an existentialist blow-mind pretentious plot twist like evangelion?

LOOOOOOOL, I'm starting to understand a few things right now...

Well, I'm still waiting for the journey. The characters, the moments and such. Unless the journey was all about Face Off, forgettable characters and bad writing. If that's the case, somebody forgot to send me the memo.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

No one said that Shenmue II didn't have money paywalls. But there was a lot more to it than paywalls. And at least, they managed to make it, narrative wise, different.

S2:
- Hey bros I wanna see Ren
- What the hell?
- I said I wanna see Ren
- 500 bucks
- Got them.
- Nice. Come in.

Narrative wise, different.

 

[GhostTrick]

S2:
- Hey bros I wanna see Ren
- What the hell?
- I said I wanna see Ren
- 500 bucks
- Got them.
- Nice. Come in.

Narrative wise, different.

Well yes, since the next paywall is basically:
- Want to enter the tournament ? Pay the fee

Different indeed.

When it comes to Shenmue 3 ?
Master 1: If you want me to teach you that technique, you'll have to pay.
Master 2: If you want me to teach you that technique, you'll have to pay.

You can turn it in any way, Shenmue II managed to justify it's two paywalls in different manners when it comes to the story. Shenmue III on the other hand do it in a nearly identical way.

 

[danielmann861]

No one said that Shenmue II didn't have money paywalls. But there was a lot more to it than paywalls. And at least, they managed to make it, narrative wise, different. That whole street fight segment in II was rather cool in fact. You had to pretend to be a street fighter who wanted to join the Yellow Heads. It introduced a lot of cool fights and even one cool character, even if they barely have any lines. And there were a lot of nice cool scenes too.

I can't argue with the fact that II did it better...but at the same time, strip away the presentation and its literally the same mechanic repeated twice. Again, I'm not saying it's above criticism in its presentation, rather I'm saying it's the bloody same mechanic in both games. I'm laughing at the point where III is seen as some sort of disappointment for literally repeating the same mechanics II did. Yet II is considered this holy grail yet if you strip it down to the core mechanics, III is literally II repeated. Again, I'm not saying the presentation is above criticism though. The presentation has issues, I've said this since finishing it.

As you said, Shenmue is not about the destination. I don't think many people here care about the ending. I feel like, most of us, can almost tell what'll happen in the end. People don't expect Shenmue for a deep, brillant story that'll blow your mind.

Are we sure about that? Because the immediate reaction here on these very forums when most had finished III was the lack of story progression or the lack of closure. SOME here had that reaction. I remember it vividly. So obviously some people here do care about the destination. They do care about the story...otherwise people wouldn't be saying "there is too much grinding in III and not enough story"

When people say "It's not what they expected", it doesn't mean that there wasn't any of those elements in I and II. I don't think Shenmue I and II were about forklifts, jobs and mini-games. Yes, they were a more or less big part of those games. But, as far as I'm concerned and I think many others too, I didn't play those games for those stuff. They were fine to have. But they weren't the core experience, what I played it for. It's not a surprise that it's a complaints that often comes about Shenmue III. When there's smoke, there's fire. Maybe it's wrong, but some people feels like in 3, priorities were given to things that are secondary to the journey. Jobs, mini games and forklifts weren't the passionating things in Shenmue. They were here. They were part of the experience. But they weren't the main draw.

So you do care about the destination? You care more about the story than everything else the game has to offer? That's honestly the impression I've gotten from you all this time.

Well, I'm still waiting for the journey. The characters, the moments and such. Unless the journey was all about Face Off, forgettable characters and bad writing. If that's the case, somebody forgot to send me the memo.

Yeah it sounds to me you do care more and more about the destination rather than the journey. All I can tell you is that I find SOME of these characters interesting (albeit I wish they were better fleshed out) and that the journey is still here. We're never gonna see eye to eye so I don't see the point in carrying this on.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Well yes, since the next paywall is basically:
- Want to enter the tournament ? Pay the fee

Different indeed.

When it comes to Shenmue 3 ?
Master 1: If you want me to teach you that technique, you'll have to pay.
Master 2: If you want me to teach you that technique, you'll have to pay.

You can turn it in any way, Shenmue II managed to justify it's two paywalls in different manners when it comes to the story. Shenmue III on the other hand do it in a nearly identical way.

ALL BECAUSE THOSE CAPITALISTS PIGS ASKING FOR MONEY. FUCKING BASTARDS

LONG LIVE THE SOVIET UNION COMRADES

 

[hyo_razuki]

The most important conversations which Ryo should have had in S3 have been ignored. Plot points which could have been explored only jn Bailu have been ignored. We've been over this a 1000 times.

We need to stop sugarcoating. Storytelling and character development were weak in S3 and we all know that. I'm tired of people trying to tell me how S3 is a better game than S2 or S1 or how S3 did some things just like S1 and S2 did. Things mattered in 1 and 2. They don't in 3, because characters are forgetable and the storytelling just isn't there.

And again, I get that money was an issue but as GhostTrick rightfully pointed out, there was enough money to create a huge, useless Niaowu, there was enough money to record the dialog for Face Off, but there was no money to record dialog about the prophecy, or Iwaos past, or Yuan's letter, or why there are at least 2 Shenmue trees? When resources get distributed like that, you know this game has had management issues.

Again, not calling S3 a bad game. In fact, I mostly enjoyed Bailu and thought the environments were gorgeous and most jobs were fun, I loved wood chopping and fishing.

But if S4, if it gets made, will continue this level of storytelling and plot progression what's the point?

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Are we sure about that? Because the immediate reaction here on these very forums when most had finished III was the lack of story progression or the lack of closure. SOME here had that reaction. I remember it vividly. So obviously some people here do care about the destination. They do care about the story...otherwise people wouldn't people saying "there is too much grinding in III and not enough story"

We all remember that. And luckily we have all the messages right here in the forum.

But if you want more, you can see what I quote in the previous page one hour ago

Tbh i think it's more egotistical to suggest Shenmue 3 is still the quality it always was and if you think otherwise you're apparently a hater who wanted a triple A budget.

Yu Suzuki didn't need a huge budget to make Shenmue 3 decent, he just needed a good story. At the very least.

People who were disappointed of the game while they number 1 complaint were "the lack of story" and "poor progress of the story" now will juggling with their arguments and will start to write big and long messages explaining why they are not wrong and why actually the story is not THAT important instead of the journey but at the same time it's kinda important because SIII it's shit because the story but not really but kinda yes but but but BUTBUTB U

 

[GhostTrick]

I can't argue with the fact that II did it better...but at the same time, strip away the presentation and its literally the same mechanic repeated twice. Again, I'm not saying it's above criticism in its presentation, rather I'm saying it's the bloody same mechanic in both games. I'm laughing at the point where III is seen as some sort of disappointment for literally repeating the same mechanics II did. Yet II is considered this holy grail yet if you strip it down to the core mechanics, III is literally II repeated. Again, I'm not saying the presentation is above criticism though.



Are we sure about that? Because the immediate reaction when most had finished III was the lack of story progression or the lack of closure. SOME had that reaction. I remember it vividly. So obviously some people here do care about the destination.




So you do care about the destination?







Yeah it sounds to me you do care more and more about the destination rather than the journey. All I can tell you is that I find SOME of these characters interesting (albeit I wish they were better fleshed out) and that the journey is still here.

No, because caring about the destination would be caring about the end only. To reach the end for a payoff. Heck, it says it right there in the post you quoted:

"but some people feels like in 3, priorities were given to things that are secondary to the journey "

For me, Shenmue II wasn't about reaching that (amazing) cave cutscenes nor finding Yuanda Zhu.
For me, Shenmue II was about when Wong stole the bag and Ryo got to chase him, meeting Joy with all that tension between her and Ryo, meeting and interacting with Fang Mei (especially at that Man Mo Bistro cutscene), it was also those 4 masters teaching you the Wude (the barber, the old lady, the master with his hobbo apprentice), meeting Xiuying and learning more and more about her cliché, yet touching back story, meeting Ren and seeing him and Ryo interact with each others in crazy adventures. I could go on and on. I'm not even touching the masterpiece that is CD4 yet.

Thing is, I remember what happened in between the begining of Shenmue II and the end of Shenmue II. That's the journey. Yes, that journey had also not so funny things like a few part time jobs that were tedious. But they were secondary to that journey. The journey wasn't the job. It was the people we met.

 

[danielmann861]

No, because caring about the destination would be caring about the end only. To reach the end for a payoff. Heck, it says it right there in the post you quoted:

"but some people feels like in 3, priorities were given to things that are secondary to the journey "

For me, Shenmue II wasn't about reaching that (amazing) cave cutscenes nor finding Yuanda Zhu.
For me, Shenmue II was about when Wong stole the bag and Ryo got to chase him, meeting Joy with all that tension between her and Ryo, meeting and interacting with Fang Mei (especially at that Man Mo Bistro cutscene), it was also those 4 masters teaching you the Wude (the barber, the old lady, the master with his hobbo apprentice), meeting Xiuying and learning more and more about her cliché, yet touching back story, meeting Ren and seeing him and Ryo interact with each others in crazy adventures. I could go on and on. I'm not even touching the masterpiece that is CD4 yet.

Thing is, I remember what happened in between the begining of Shenmue II and the end of Shenmue II. That's the journey. Yes, that journey had also not so funny things like a few part time jobs that were tedious. But they were secondary to that journey. The journey wasn't the job. It was the people we met.

So secondary that you literally needed to do them in order to continue on the journey....yeap, so secondary though. I mean why else did we spend a week driving a fork lift in S1? Why else did we have to air out books for a few days to get on the good side of Xiuying (and to teach the value of patience and calming ones mind)? Why else did we have to earn money to meet Ren? Why else did we have to earn money to keep going on the journey?...It's all so secondary though. So secondary.

Again, I'm not gonna argue with you from the presentation side because in many ways I agree...the story telling in III ain't up to par with II. I sure as hell ain't denying that (I don't think many of us here will deny that.) But I don't think it's as bad as some here make it out to be. At its worst. It's a filler anime episode...but some of these complaints involving the gameplay loop are really reaching and overlooking the fact that you weren't doing much different in the previous games. So I don't know why this is considered a disappointment? It feels like they literally gave more of the same (story issues aside). The only difference being one masked the gameplay loop better than the other.

The journey was still here for me. The wonderful nightly conversations with Shenhua built on that masterpiece that was Disc 4 (as you put it)....even though Sun was underdeveloped, I still enjoyed being under his tutelage. I enjoyed the journey of III even if I felt it wasn't what it could have been.

The key difference is one did a better job masking the repetition...which is probably the one thing we do see eye to eye on. At the end of the day, I still think II is a better game than III...but I do find some of the complaints around III to be really reaching.

 

[shredingskin]

Say what you will about David Cages writing ability, but the thing I've always admired about his games is the cinematic presentation and the QTE events. In some ways, I feel his games are an example of what Shenmue's QTE events would have become had the series been more successful with the mainstream. They feel like a natural evolution of what Shenmue's QTE scenes should have become.

Cage's use of QTE and interaction prompts are some of the worst (though I understand the use of them, because if it used real cinematic language his games would be almost non-playable at all).
He started using QTEs in indigo prophecy, and god, those were on the majority nonsensical and didn't made any contextual sense.
The use of "progressive input" (or whatever you want to call it) most of the time just causes a dropped input and turn you off the game.
In Heavy Rain he improved, but he relied on them to an absurd degree, making button combinations that were nonsensical, dragged out sequences, non-intrusive (but hard to read while playing), lack of urgency due to being based on percentage and not on actual presses), no real "this button makes this action" so it feels like pressing random buttons in a given sequence and another set of random buttons in another.
So on and so on (gotta sleep), but Shenmue's were from the start much better.

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

Times change. Shenmue 3 was never going to reach the heights of the first two games.
But it's still a f*cking awesome title with plenty of that "Shenmue" charm.
If there's only one thing I would have changed it would have been more story. There's still so many questions unanswered.
Yu-san said he'd fix this in 4

When did he say that?