Were you happier with no Shenmue III? Or do you prefer living in a post-Shenmue III world?

[orient]

Tbh i think it's more egotistical to suggest Shenmue 3 is still the quality it always was and if you think otherwise you're apparently a hater who wanted a triple A budget.

Ha, way to completely misrepresent my post. I said there have always been people who think Shenmue is cheesy, slow and boring, and to those people, Shenmue III is no different. Not even just the haters -- I've seen plenty of Let's Plays with the reaction "Yep, this is Shenmue alright!" -- referring to aspects such as the pace, the (lack of) story, character interaction, the bad localisation etc.

Pointing out that these same criticisms existed for I & II doesn't mean *I* think III is of the same quality. I never said that. But games are subjective. My point was Shenmue's reputation is different to many people, and hasn't been universally tarnished. To some it's always been bad, to some -- yes -- it's fallen from grace, to some it's as strong as it ever was. It's subjective.

It obviously isn't of the same quality in several areas. I would argue it's worse in some areas, about equal in others, but does do a small number of things better. That's just my opinion. It's a mixed bag, to use IGN parlance.

And there are people a shamed that III didn't have a AAA budget, that SEGA didn't come to the rescue and develop it in-house. You may not be one of them but they're really not hard to find.

 

[Sonoshee]

When did he say that?

I think it was in a tweet that Cedric Biscay made in Jan or back in December. He said Yu is aware that more story was needed and that he'd focus more on it in Shenmue 4. I'll try to find it.

 

[iknifaugood]

because I played it like a Shenmue game. Jus’ sayin’.

What does that mean? I never had to grind for money and skills as part of some kind of "daily routine" in the first 2 games.

(EDIT)I played S1 and 2 days before I played 3 and I played S3 the exact same way; I routinely hit walls where my only option was to waste my time and grind for money and/or skills.

Now what happens if you, like YS, spend an obscene amount of time trying to polish cutscenes like pearls, constantly reworking the cuts, camera angles, sweeps, timings, animations, etc, to be perfect, but don’t have anywhere near the same level of ‘man-power’ to execute it?

Then, as I've said before, he shouldn't have gotten out over his skis. Work within the budget you have, not the one you want.

Did you know that it confirms it by literally showing you another Shenmue? In the game. I guess if you can’t use inductive reasoning, there’s a journal entry, though.

S2 also literally shows you a Shenmue tree but to underscore why it's important, it shows you an awesome cutscene. Now I'm not going to assume how important Shenmue trees are in the story of SHENMUE, but if we can get a cutscene of Ryo realizing that designs on the mirrors are the same as designs on flags by carefully projecting one design over the other, then surely we could've got something to clarify this. There are people on this very dojo who missed that there were multiple Shenmue trees.

Do you think it could be possible that you just failed to engage with it? Do you think Ryo could have been shown looking off into the sunset, from the side of the boat, with body language to insinuate that Ryo is reflecting on his conversation with En, his fight with Lan Di, and everything else that led him to this point, for a poetic purpose?

Yes I failed to engage with it, no it's not "my fault". I'm sure George Lucas had noble intentions when he was writing Anakin and Padme's love story but that doesn't mean he used the cinematic language properly to tell it.

I'm sorry, but didn't we do the EXACT same thing in Shenmue II?

I've discussed this elsewhere but:
1. S2 has story reasons for this (Ryo is in a new place, strapped for cash, bag stolen etc.)
2. There are fast ways to earn money through high stakes gambling so it's not as much of a grind
3. It's the second worst part of the game (and not something I was hoping to make a return)
4. Ryo gets to keep his earnings in that game. Your $500 to enter those fights turns into $3000 (that has mysteriously disappeared in S3)

But to act like this isn't exactly what we did in the previous game (mind you Shenmue II is considered the peak of this series even though it has many of the same tricks in terms of its gameplay) is kinda foolish.

Yea and Shenmue 2 also introduced us to Xiuying, Joy, Wong, Ren, finding the four Wude, chasing Ren, tailing Yuan, and the Yellowhead building which kind of made up for the tedious parts. Why couldn't S3 put any of that kind of content in the game?

Shenmue is less about the destination and more about the journey itself.

Yea and if the story doesn't actually matter all that much and YS has nothing new to offer in terms of characters or gameplay ideas, then explain to me why the series needs another 2-3 installments?

 

[GhostTrick]

What does that mean? I never had to grind for money and skills as part of some kind of "daily routine" in the first 2 games.

(EDIT)I played S1 and 2 days before I played 3 and I played S3 the exact same way; I routinely hit walls where my only option was to waste my time and grind for money and/or skills.


Then, as I've said before, he shouldn't have gotten out over his skis. Work within the budget you have, not the one you want.


S2 also literally shows you a Shenmue tree but to underscore why it's important, it shows you an awesome cutscene. Now I'm not going to assume how important Shenmue trees are in the story of SHENMUE, but if we can get a cutscene of Ryo realizing that designs on the mirrors are the same as designs on flags by carefully projecting one design over the other, then surely we could've got something to clarify this. There are people on this very dojo who missed that there were multiple Shenmue trees.


Yes I failed to engage with it, no it's not "my fault". I'm sure George Lucas had noble intentions when he was writing Anakin and Padme's love story but that doesn't mean he used the cinematic language properly to tell it.


I've discussed this elsewhere but:
1. S2 has story reasons for this (Ryo is in a new place, strapped for cash, bag stolen etc.)
2. There are fast ways to earn money through high stakes gambling so it's not as much of a grind
3. It's the second worst part of the game (and not something I was hoping to make a return)
4. Ryo gets to keep his earnings in that game. Your $500 to enter those fights turns into $3000 (that has mysteriously disappeared in S3)


Yea and Shenmue 2 also introduced us to Xiuying, Joy, Wong, Ren, finding the four Wude, chasing Ren, tailing Yuan, and the Yellowhead building which kind of made up for the tedious parts. Why couldn't S3 put any of that kind of content in the game?


Yea and if the story doesn't actually matter all that much and YS has nothing new to offer in terms of characters or gameplay ideas, then explain to me why the series needs another 2-3 installments?

In the end, you and danielman pretty much agree that there's a paywall in both but that II manages to hide it better. Although I'd go as far as saying that, the way the economy system works in Shenmue III, it adds extra step since gambling games give you tokens instead that you need to exchange for items and then sell.

 

[Sonoshee]

There are people on this very dojo who missed that there were multiple Shenmue trees.

Once I saw there was a second Shenmue tree via cutscene, I figured there must have been more. I didn't really need a journal entry to tell me that. 3 raises more questions than answers, just like the first two games.
We'll get answers eventually. A lot of the fun is in speculating.

 

[LemonHaze]

Yea and if the story doesn't actually matter all that much and YS has nothing new to offer in terms of characters or gameplay ideas, then explain to me why the series needs another 2-3 installments?

That's not very logical of you now... is it?

 

[spud1897]

There's a big reason I like the post Shenmue III world. Take the views of the game out of it for a moment. For me it is the completion of the ultimate fan community revival story. Where each time we were told it wouldn't happen we kept on going, where the community grew and basically forced the hand of the powers that be to give us Shenmue III and also Shenmue I and II.

If that can inspire other fanbases/revivals then we live in a better gaming world for it IMO.

 

[iknifaugood]

In the end, you and danielman pretty much agree that there's a paywall in both but that II manages to hide it better.

It's not just a matter of hiding it. S2 is about Ryo being strapped for cash, he gets his bag stolen and needs to pay for his lodging in a big city. S3 has Ryo staying at Shenhua's for free in a tiny rural village, he should not need twice as much money as he needs in S2.

Although I'd go as far as saying that, the way the economy system works in Shenmue III, it adds extra step since gambling games give you tokens instead that you need to exchange for items and then sell.

The economy is better but still broken (ie: all I needed apart from moves was garlic and bananas) but I'll take save scumming big or small for 15 minutes in S2 over endless grinding in S3. Even if you try and save scum, the payouts are so much smaller in S3 and the amount of money you need is so much bigger.

Once I saw there was a second Shenmue tree via cutscene, I figured there must have been more.

I know that technically S2 shows a second Shenmue tree, but it was in a flashback that was super vague because the characters were talking about Shenhua's name. Still, S2 makes a huge deal about the Shenmue tree being thousands of years old, Shenhua having a special connection to it, Ryo instantly feeling a connection to it etc. I found it weird for S3 to be like btw these trees just exist everywhere in China, nbd. Especially because S3 doesn't really mention the Shenmue tree like at all. Ryo doesn't even train in front of it or anything.

That's not very logical of you now... is it?

How is what I said not logical?

 

[LemonHaze]

How is what I said not logical?

Explain to me the logic behind "explain to me why the series needs another 2-3 installments?". It's not really something you can put your finger on IMO, especially since we don't know the full story.

 

[iknifaugood]

Explain to me the logic behind "explain to me why the series needs another 2-3 installments?". It's not really something you can put your finger on IMO, especially since we don't know the full story.

Because I specifically said that if it’s not about the story then what’s the point in having there be 5-6 installments? It was in response to the argument that Shenmue is about the journey not the destination and not really about the plot.

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

I think it was in a tweet that Cedric Biscay made in Jan or back in December. He said Yu is aware that more story was needed and that he'd focus more on it in Shenmue 4. I'll try to find it.

I just think isn't that a given? I'm so confused, why would you not focus on that in the first place? Seems like the story for Yu is background and the Shenmue world is what he's more concerned about which makes me understand more now why he was so open to ideas like Shenmue Online and Shenmue Gaiden. I know Shenmue has always been about the immersion and the slice of life experience but it would always compliment the story. Ryo vs GuiZang in Shenmue 1 is the best analogy. You fight in gameplay and it seamlessly transitions into cutscene and back to gameplay, some of the best gameplay to cutscene transitions I've ever seen till this day, that is how Shenmue was, seamless open world gameplay and story, I'm surprised Yu missed that, unless there was other factors and he didn't mention them.

 

[Rydeen]

When it comes to Shenmue 3 ?
Master 1: If you want me to teach you that technique, you'll have to pay.
Master 2: If you want me to teach you that technique, you'll have to pay.

Inaccurate. Son tells Ryo that he won't teach him without tribute in the form of aged Baichu. It's secondary that the alcohol is also very expensive, and the game has you go in search of it. Bai tells Ryo that he needs to track down a scroll for a more advanced Bajiquan technique, if he's going to be able to teach him anything. It's secondary that Ryo happens to find one (which is maybe overly convenient, really), and it's the most expensive one in town.

What does that mean? I never had to grind for money and skills as part of some kind of "daily routine" in the first 2 games.

(EDIT)I played S1 and 2 days before I played 3 and I played S3 the exact same way; I routinely hit walls where my only option was to waste my time and grind for money and/or skills.

I also played the first two games right before playing SIII. All I'm saying is that your premise was that no die-hard Shenmue fan would enjoy heavy grinding, and my experience didn't come with forced grinding, because I kept up a normal Shenmue routine. So my scenario doesn't meet any part of your premise. Also, outside of gambling and herbs, I found chopping wood to be the most efficient job: It's possible to do 2-3 sessions in an in-game hour, and I averaged about 65 Yuan per attempt. That's an average of 195 Yuan per in-game hour, and 585 Yuan for three in-game hours--which I recall being the length of fishing and forklift driving.

At any rate, it wouldn't be new for the series, and it's even a part of Yakuza 2, I've recently found out, where you'd essentially be forced to grind mahjong, of all things, to turn around and pay an informant, four feet away--twice.

Some people are really on about this, though. I'm not really trying to defend this kind of gating, but I tend to barely notice it, and it's just kind of odd that it's such a big issue for people now. I still play a lot of really early JRPGs, though, so maybe I'm just immunized.

Then, as I've said before, he shouldn't have gotten out over his skis. Work within the budget you have, not the one you want.

Scoping the project was obviously an issue. I don't suppose you've ever set up a small game development studio, and produced a sequel to a niche, big-budget series, on a very modest budget, in order to provide more insight into the challenges with scoping such a project, have you? I also wonder if it was possible that putting all of his eggs into one basket (ie. story) would have risked alienating another segment of the fanbase who care more about side activities, npc interaction, capsule toys, etc. Personally I tend to like all elements of Shenmue pretty equally.

surely we could've got something to clarify this.

Clarify what? That the name of a category of tree refers to more than one tree, as with "Redwood"?

Yes I failed to engage with it, no it's not "my fault". I'm sure George Lucas had noble intentions when he was writing Anakin and Padme's love story but that doesn't mean he used the cinematic language properly to tell it.

Are you certain? Did you formulate this idea of the ending cutscene from one viewing, or multiple?
I might be crucified for this, but I'm not a fan of Star Wars, and wouldn't really use it to gauge any sort of cinematography, personally.
I'm not saying that Shenmue III is quite this detailed, or intentional as these examples, but this video essay might demonstrate what I'm intending to point out here:

Also, SII has a very similar scene at the beginning of Disc 4, where the camera work may be a little better, but the 'acting' is probably a bit worse.

he should not need twice as much money as he needs in S2.

Not sure how you're going about your calculations. In SII Ryo is dealing in HKD. In Guilin, he's using Yuan.

Especially because S3 doesn't really mention the Shenmue tree like at all. Ryo doesn't even train in front of it or anything.

You mean aside from the scene where Shenhua and Ryo are standing in front of the one outside her house, talking about how pretty it is in full bloom, and that it will lose its petals soon?

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

But I don't think it's as bad as some here make it out to be. At its worst. It's a filler anime episode...but some of these complaints involving the gameplay loop are really reaching and overlooking the fact that you weren't doing much different in the previous games. So I don't know why this is considered a disappointment? It feels like they literally gave more of the same (story issues aside). The only difference being one masked the gameplay loop better than the other.

I think the problem here is that the gameplay loop is ALL we did in Shenmue 3, I like the Gameplay loop but the reward we got for it was weak, Shenmue 1 and 2's gameplay loops rewarded you with moves you could actually do in a fight not QTE only, they rewarded you with engaging character moments with interesting characters, you drove the forklift around and it was tedious and boring but inbetween once or twice a work day you'd fight the mad angels, they rewarded with cool epicly built fights in Kowloon that felt akin to setting up huge matches in sporting events, real life or fictional. Shenmue 3 had a nice gameplay loop but it's all it had and that's the problem.

 

[Godokunodan]

People of the age to have played the original Shenmues tend to have a healthy attitude approaching Shenmue III. I was watching Aris' stream of Shenmue III and I enjoyed watching his stream because while he made note and fun of some of the jank, he acknowledged this game really should have come out in 2003. Corporate douchbaggery delayed it. Aris also made a lot of comparisons between Yu Suzuki and Hideo Kojima, which is accurate. They are both mad scientists.

 

[Sh3ppy]

We need to stop sugarcoating. I'm tired of people trying to tell me how S3 is a better game than S2 or S1

What a dickish post. So because I personally prefer III over I (as do others on here going by this thread), I must be sugar-coating and not being genuine. And I'm sorry, but if you're sick of seeing people's opinions that differ from your own, you might want to log out and take a break.

And re. the grinding to make money on S3. It's a piece of piss making more than enough cash in 3 without having to save scum, which is objectively not how Shenmue was designed to be played. This is an incredibly weak argument against the game in my opinion.

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

People of the age to have played the original Shenmues tend to have a healthy attitude approaching Shenmue III. I was watching Aris' stream of Shenmue III and I enjoyed watching his stream because while he made note and fun of some of the jank, he acknowledged this game really should have come out in 2003. Corporate douchbaggery delayed it. Aris also made a lot of comparisons between Yu Suzuki and Hideo Kojima, which is accurate. They are both mad scientists.

I like Aris and his playthrough of Shenmue one, have yet to watch his Shenmue two playthrough or his 3 one in full (watched him play the DLC which was hilarious and how I found him) I was disappointed to hear he couldn't finish Shenmue 2, not sure why but towards the end he absolutely hated it apparently and stopped playing, I'm guessing the walking with Shenhua stuff was what killed it for him but I don't know. Other than that I loved his approach to Shenmue 1, he had patience, he did other things while the game forced him to wait, he'd use the map when he got lost and him being a fighting game expert made the combat fun to watch, and I agree, it probably had to do with age and the fact he's an old school gamer. Only criticism I'd give him is that he doesn't train nearly enough because if he did he'd be beast at the combat system and he doesn't pay attention to cutscenes enough at all.

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

What a dickish post. So because I personally prefer III over I (as do others on here going by this thread), I must be sugar-coating and not being genuine. And I'm sorry, but if you're sick of seeing people's opinions that differ from your own, you might want to log out and take a break.

And re. the grinding to make money on S3. It's a piece of piss making more than enough cash in 3 without having to save scum, which is objectively not how Shenmue was designed to be played. This is an incredibly weak argument against the game in my opinion.

While I'll agree it's not cool to question your sincerity of your love of Shenmue 3 over 1 I must admit, if I didn't save scum I probably would've turned the game off a few times. I wasn't immersed enough in Shenmue 3 to warrant any enjoyment of trying to earn 2000 or 5000 Yaun the hard way, plus I'm too old for that, not enough time to dedicate to earning money for hours in a video game. And that being more or less my only active objective other than asking people stuff. Apart from working hours chopping wood, I don't know how else to earn money quick legit on Shenmue 3.

 

[Godokunodan]

To be fair, in Yakuza 2, if you suck at Majong like I did, they let you pass that part of the game with the informant. The guy who keeps beating you takes pity on you.

On the other hand, grinding is a big part of Yakuza. Even if you are not grinding money, you have to grind XP. You pretty much have to turn the part of your brain off that gets bored during grinding to excell at Yakuza.

That said, you can just fish or catch ducks or do 3 shifts in one day on the forklift to get money. You only need more money than usual if you suck at the game and keep losing fights. Also you can just max bet in New Paradise and pick the 30X bet Lucky Hit to get all the tokens you can possibly need. I got the cool Satin Flight Jacket, Black Jeans , cola shirt, and all the Yuan(buy the space ship and sell it 10x)( I could ever need winning the 30X bet Lucky Hit on my first play through. You just have to pay attention to the game world, and min-max. Play smarter, not harder. Some people just want to complain instead of being solution oriented.

 

[Godokunodan]

I think it was in a tweet that Cedric Biscay made in Jan or back in December. He said Yu is aware that more story was needed and that he'd focus more on it in Shenmue 4. I'll try to find it.

People like to twist Yu Suzuki's words to their own anti-Shenmue III ends. Game Informer asked Yu Suzuki on a scale of 1 to 10 how much does he love Shenmue III. Some hater on VFDC misquoted him to say he thinks Shenmue III should be rated a 6 on all news venues. People on here are saying the affinity system with Shenhua has been cut. I just watched a video posted by official Playstation channel where Yu Suzuki stated the affinity system is still in the game, it just affects how plesantly or neutral Shenhua reacts to you when you are talking to here later in the game. Just because it has no affect on the outcome of the game doesnt mean it was "cut". There are a lot of actors with axes to grind against this game because its a Playstation exclusive or am Epics Game store exclusive. Im seeing a lot of fake news.

 

[Dietsoap]

I'm tired of people trying to tell me how S3 is a better game than S2 or S1

I feel you man, I'm tired of people telling me n*ntendo games are good.