Were you happier with no Shenmue III? Or do you prefer living in a post-Shenmue III world?

[iknifaugood]

...I mean, really? Trying to equate Shenmue III's structure to Hellblades'. Structurally, Hellblade and Shenmue III are completely different. You know this, we all know this. Narrative linearity != structural linearity.

"Disingenuous" gets thrown around a lot as an easy dismissal but I honestly don't know how else to describe comparisons like that.

I literally described how the structure of the levels is different in the very sentence you quoted so please don't put words in my mouth. S3 has fewer, bigger, open environments and Hellblade has more, smaller, linear environments but the way the player progresses through both games (and nearly every story-based game ever made) is linear. The existence of towns and side quests doesn't change that. For actual non-linear game progression look to Breath of the Wild, where what you do, how you play, and where you go is dictated by the player (after the tutorial).

Obviously both games are different but we can compare things that aren't 100% identical; we're not robots here. This comes up every time S3 is compared to other games on this forum, so what games (apart from S1 and 2) is it ok to compare S3 to?

 

[Creward]

I literally described how the structure of the levels is different in the very sentence you quoted so please don't put words in my mouth. S3 has fewer, bigger, open environments and Hellblade has more, smaller, linear environments but the way the player progresses through both games (and nearly every story-based game ever made) is linear. The existence of towns and side quests doesn't change that. For actual non-linear game progression look to Breath of the Wild, where what you do, how you play, and where you go is dictated by the player (after the tutorial).

Obviously both games are different but we can compare things that aren't 100% identical; we're not robots here. This comes up every time S3 is compared to other games on this forum, so what games (apart from S1 and 2) is it ok to compare S3 to?

Correct, videogame narrative is mostly definition linear and there is no much way arround it. As a matter of fact seeing trends players tend to prefer that as Naughty Dog videogames are super well received by the "story" and even the claimed "choices matter" RPG mostly have a illusion of choice and go for the same lineal path regardless.

Shenmue3 is a linear game, like most jrpg and adventure games, but does not force the player to advance immediately to that linear path like FF13 did that and we all know how that went...

PD: I thought that technically all of breath of wild was side content to make ganon fight easier so if you are a god player you could skip everything. After all the main point of the game is exploration.

 

[gamesbloke]

Shenmue 3 is what I needed it to be and the base game is fine and decent. But I'm frustrated with the DLC roll out. I think if you are gonna do DLC make it special/unique. The story quest DLC I found to be petty rather than fulfilling. Should've included it as part of the main game. If you are gonna cut content for DLC then cut the side quests and add them as DLC later on. The boat DLC is.... Meh.... At best, in my opinion.

I want S4 but S3 has raised some doubts in my mind.

But I'm glad we exist in a world with S3.

 

[Rydeen]

I agree with this but there was definitely a way to do it that wouldn't have resulted in so much ridicule.

Perhaps, you could be right, but we really have no way to gauge that. The internet highlights edge-cases. We don't know what proportion of people who played SIII had more tempered reactions that either weren't voiced, or weren't amplified by the internet. Unless you have some data that actually supports that everyone wanted a purely story driven game. If that's the case, please do share.

You mentioned the beginning of disc 4 and I have no idea to what you were referring.


No offense taken. If this discussion is about how I'm failing to see the hidden depths of S3's cutscene direction then no, this will not be productive. May I ask where I've demonstrated an inability to infer meaning from non-dialogue scene elements?

S3 by contrast, pans across a boat where Ryo talks to Yuan in a completely empty room and then bizarrely flashes back to Ryo, still on the boat, remembering a conversation on the boat. It's really weird. Obviously a lot of it comes down to story but a lot of it is basic cinematic language; like I said S2 showed us two characters standing around a tree and made it interesting. S3 also breaks convention and smash cuts to Ryo, Shenhua and Ren at the great wall (where? when?) as we hear, for the first time ever, their thoughts. It's just super weird and inconsistent.

The only time he's on a boat--.

If you want to see that as just fluff, then I can't really do anything about that, but almost every frame of that ending is filled with poetic exposition. If you want to choose to disregard that, so be it.

The scene just before it, with Lan Di, is so painfully excellent: The framing of the characters in the scene, and close-ups on Ryo-Lan Di for the dialogue. The framing with Ren between Lan Di and Ryo, and the wide shots, when Ren inserts himself into the scene. The eye-catch on Lan Di's foot when he back kicks Ren, or on the mirror when Ren chucks it into the woods. The castle literally falling apart behind Lan Di, as he stares out into the night, as if representing the collapse of his plans. Juxtapose it with Ryo facing out toward the burning sun on the boat, enveloped in it, contrasted with being bathed in the glow of the moonlight in Bailu. I can't teach you to see these things, particularly if you apparently refuse to acknowledge them. I don't feel they're very difficult, though. Maybe you just don't find it "believable," but it seems like you haven't had much/any exposure to analyzing film. Which is fine, I guess.

I'm about done, though.

 

[Rydeen]

FF7

I'm sorry, I just-- I thought I wouldn't bother with the rest, but your argument about this doesn't make any sense. You're saying that Shenmue and FF7 are linear games with corridors like Hellblade? Is that what you're arguing? Because that's how you responded. Do you even know what you're arguing anymore? Because I honestly have no idea. It sounds like you're just back peddling into a non sequitur.

 

[iknifaugood]

Unless you have some data that actually supports that everyone wanted a purely story driven game. If that's the case, please do share.

I don't actually require hard data since the only reason to continue the series is to continue the story. Suzuki could have easily continued the series with a spiritual successor a la Mighty No. 9, Bloodstained, or Yooka Laylee if all anyone cared about was the gameplay. The reason S3's Kickstarter was successful was because it was Shenmue 3. As in the continuation of the story. Where's your evidence that placing the story on the back burner was a good idea?

Also none of this is what I was even talking about, I said there was a way to make the game less subject to ridicule (maybe no horrible English dub? No boring grinding requirements? A story with some stakes and urgency? More action sequences? etc.).

The only time he's on a boat--.

Yea it flashes back to the previous scene because it's the start of a new chapter. It's awkward but it's not the same thing as S3 where it cuts from one scene on the boat to another on the same boat as a flashback and then smash cuts to an undisclosed location on the great wall where we hear inner monologues for the first time.

The scene just before it, with Lan Di, is so painfully excellent: The framing of the characters in the scene, and close-ups on Ryo-Lan Di for the dialogue. The framing with Ren between Lan Di and Ryo, and the wide shots, when Ren inserts himself into the scene. The eye-catch on Lan Di's foot when he back kicks Ren, or on the mirror when Ren chucks it into the woods. The castle literally falling apart behind Lan Di, as he stares out into the night, as if representing the collapse of his plans. Juxtapose it with Ryo facing out toward the burning sun on the boat, enveloped in it, contrasted with being bathed in the glow of the moonlight in Bailu.

I'm pretty sure I said the action scenes are good and I was specifically talking about the ending on the boat and the exposition scenes in general, which are bad.

I can't teach you to see these things, particularly if you apparently refuse to acknowledge them. I don't feel they're very difficult, though. Maybe you just don't find it "believable," but it seems like you haven't had much/any exposure to analyzing film.

This is the most condescending thing anyone has ever said to me on this forum and that's saying a lot.

You're saying that Shenmue and FF7 are linear games with corridors like Hellblade? Is that what you're arguing?

Yup. You got it. FF7 is a linear corridor game. That's exactly what I'm arguing.

(EDIT) I used FF7 as an example to sarcastically demonstrate that your list of features for S3 could be applied to nearly any game in order to claim “it can be played 100s of different ways” because that’s obviously not true. I thought that was pretty self evident. Shenmue is and has always been very linear, you’re acting like side content somehow negates that and elevates it above games with less side content. S3 doesn’t automatically get a pass because it has lots of mini games and NPCs.

 

[Sh3ppy]

The only time he's on a boat--.

But almost every frame of that ending is filled with poetic exposition. If you want to choose to disregard that, so be it.

These were essentially my thoughts during my first playthrough.

 

[orient]

but the way the player progresses through both games (and nearly every story-based game ever made) is linear.

Yes, so if nearly every story-based game progresses linearly...why bring it up? It does nothing to prove that Hellblade vs Shenmue III is a fair or good comparison. You were trying to downplay the differences between the games. Saying:

...while it doesn't have corridor environments...

...is basically saying, "while both games' environments are built completely differently, and you traverse them differently, and the player experiences the world differently". It's a huge dismissal. I also completely disagree that SIII "lacks the variety" of Hellblade. They're so different it feels silly even comparing them, but whatever.

 

[danielmann861]

They're so different it feels silly even comparing them, but whatever.

^This

 

[iknifaugood]

Yes, so if nearly every story-based game progresses linearly...why bring it up?

I didn't, you did. I was responding to your original post where you said the difference between Hellblade and S3 is that Hellblade is linear by pointing out that they are both, in fact, linear.

It does nothing to prove that Hellblade vs Shenmue III is a fair or good comparison. You were trying to downplay the differences between the games.

No, I was trying to describe why two linear, story-based games, with the same budgets can be fairly compared. I think it's a good comparison because it illustrates what I think is a lot of people's frustration with S3 (its preoccupation with providing "more" to do at the expense of story) while working within a similar budget.

...is basically saying, "while both games' environments are built completely differently, and you traverse them differently, and the player experiences the world differently". It's a huge dismissal.

It's not a dismissal, it's acknowledging that they're different. But we can compare things that are different.

They're so different it feels silly even comparing them, but whatever.

That's fine, I'm not married to the comparison, I was just defending it, but this comes up literally every time S3 is compared to another game. I think that since budget is always used as an excuse for the lack of strong storytelling, it's perfectly fair to compare it to a game with a similar budget and far superior storytelling (again, if that's the primary concern. I understand that it's not for everyone).

 

[Rydeen]

I don't understand how you can persist this much with such an obviously flawed argument.

 

[WuyingRen]

I don't understand how you can persist this much with such an obviously flawed argument.

 

[Rydeen]

Not really, but I am totally bewildered.

 

[iknifaugood]

I don't understand how you can persist this much with such an obviously flawed argument.

What game is it OK to compare S3 to? I don’t think Shenmue has a genre (didn’t Suzuki want to implement a strategy game in S3?), most of the chapters take place in big open cities with dozens of characters until Guilin, which has 2 characters walk through a forest in basically a straight line. So before S3, 1/4 of the chapters of Shenmue is almost indistinguishable from many sections of Hellblade (only in that game, Shenhua is in Ryo’s head). I happen to think it’s useful to compare games from different genres if they’re trying to achieve the same goal (either through narrative or gameplay), which you as a lover of film must understand.

I’ll ask again: what game is it OK to compare S3 to?

 

[WuyingRen]

Not really, but I am totally bewildered.

I was answering your question, not talking about you

 

[orient]

I didn't, you did. I was responding to your original post where you said the difference between Hellblade and S3 is that Hellblade is linear by pointing out that they are both, in fact, linear.

Ah yes, so semantic BS. That type of narrative linearity was clearly not what I was referring to. If that wasn't obvious in my original post, I literally specified it in my follow-up post.

And if you're not married to the comparison, why are you still defending it? I don't understand. Because you want others to recognise your dislike for SIII and a good comparison will make them see the light? You'll finally convince everyone that SIII was a shitshow?

Just accept that some people were happy with the game. It's easier that way.

 

[iknifaugood]

Ah yes, so semantic BS. That type of narrative linearity was clearly not what I was referring to. If that wasn't obvious in my original post, I literally specified it in my follow-up post.

I'm not being semantic, I distinguished between linearity as it pertains to structure vs. progression. Is your argument really that games with open environments can't be compared to games with linear environments? I guess Super Mario Odyssey can't be compared to other Super Mario games? Really?

And if you're not married to the comparison, why are you still defending it? I don't understand.

Because you (and several other people on this forum) are shutting down discussion when S3 is compared to other games by constantly saying that the comparison is invalid and it's not invalid. Most people defend S3 by saying it had a low budget so what do you expect? Hellblade having a similar budget while providing an experience that in their minds is better is perfectly valid. Again: what should S3 be compared to?

I don't understand. Because you want others to recognise your dislike for SIII and a good comparison will make them see the light? You'll finally convince everyone that SIII was a shitshow?

No, I was defending an argument that was being dismissed out of hand because that's bullshit. Also, plenty of fanbases complain about entries in their favorite series. Game of Thrones fans are still complaining about the final season and it's been almost a year. If someone likes something about the game or feels like I'm misrepresenting something, they're free to defend it. Except @Rydeen trying to tell me that Lan Di kicking Ren in the face somehow makes the shitty exposition scene good.

Just accept that some people were happy with the game. It's easier that way.

1. I have, I don't care if anyone likes the game, though I find it fascinating how anyone could view this as a proper follow up to S2. I like hearing what people think is important/unimportant in Shenmue.

2. Just accept that some people were unhappy with the game. Same difference.

 

[Sonoshee]

Shenmue 3 is what I needed it to be and the base game is fine and decent. But I'm frustrated with the DLC roll out. I think if you are gonna do DLC make it special/unique. The story quest DLC I found to be petty rather than fulfilling. Should've included it as part of the main game. If you are gonna cut content for DLC then cut the side quests and add them as DLC later on. The boat DLC is.... Meh.... At best, in my opinion.

I want S4 but S3 has raised some doubts in my mind.

But I'm glad we exist in a world with S3.

DLC was absolutely at the feet of Deep Silver, just like its season pass.
Knowing Suzuki, all that would have been in at release if it was his call.

Publishers are double edged swords. Yeah you get more funds toward development, but you get a lot of these annoying decisions like cut content to be made into DLC, or microtransactions (thank God we didn't get the latter.)

 

[iknifaugood]

Publishers are double edged swords. Yeah you get more funds toward development, but you get a lot of these annoying decisions like cut content to be made into DLC, or microtransactions (thank God we didn't get the latter.)

Word.

 

[WuyingRen]

I'm not being semantic, I distinguished between linearity as it pertains to structure vs. progression. Is your argument really that games with open environments can't be compared to games with linear environments? I guess Super Mario Odyssey can't be compared to other Super Mario games? Really?


Because you (and several other people on this forum) are shutting down discussion when S3 is compared to other games by constantly saying that the comparison is invalid and it's not invalid. Most people defend S3 by saying it had a low budget so what do you expect? Hellblade having a similar budget while providing an experience that in their minds is better is perfectly valid. Again: what should S3 be compared to?


No, I was defending an argument that was being dismissed out of hand because that's bullshit. Also, plenty of fanbases complain about entries in their favorite series. Game of Thrones fans are still complaining about the final season and it's been almost a year. If someone likes something about the game or feels like I'm misrepresenting something, they're free to defend it. Except @Rydeen trying to tell me that Lan Di kicking Ren in the face somehow makes the shitty exposition scene good.


1. I have, I don't care if anyone likes the game, though I find it fascinating how anyone could view this as a proper follow up to S2. I like hearing what people think is important/unimportant in Shenmue.

2. Just accept that some people were unhappy with the game. Same difference.

Whilst I agree with the premise of your argument here, I’m not sure I can see any value in this line of discussion.

I haven’t seen anybody trying to make the argument that Shenmue 3 is a perfect game and so pointing out that it could have been ‘better’ seems somewhat redundant to me.

Yes, subjectively, you could make the argument that other developers have better utilized their budget and I’m sure you could provide plenty of examples of games with smaller budgets that you think are better than Shenmue 3. Conversely, I could provide plenty of examples of games with significantly larger budgets which I believe are worse than Shenmue 3, but to what end?

YSNet are a newly formed development studio with a relatively small team of mostly inexperienced staff. Yu Suzuki is an industry veteran who is used to working with larger, more experienced teams and significantly larger budgets. That there may have been issues during the development cycle which lead to the budget not being utilized as best as it could have been or that Yu’s ambition when it came to the scope of the project may have been held back by these limitations should come as no surprise.

Could we have gotten a better game considering the size of the budget? Most probably. Could we have gotten a worse game in spite of the size of the budget? Most definitely. Ultimately though, I see it as something of a moot point.

What do we as a community gain from this line of discussion? More importantly, were Yu Suzuki to stumble across this discussion, what exactly is he supposed to take away from it? That he did a bad job? That he should make the next Shenmue more like Hellblade?