Why the story in Shenmue 3 is good/Why the story in Shenmue 3 is bad

[shredingskin]

I was thinking about the original, and look at the throwaway scene of the cat on the roof.
It's hard to say it's not constructed to show an analogue to Ryo situation.
The cat is on the roof, megumi is worried (like most people around Ryo are about him), then the cat jumps and lands just fine, her leg is now fine and he's well on the way to recovery.
Then Nozomi appears with medicine that is no longer needed.
It's the whole relationship "current status" of Ryo and Nozomi, she wants to help Ryo, make him feel better, but Ryo is already set on his ways and she isn't needed anymore and both are drifting away.
It gets deeper in the park scene when she just wants him to stay with her.

That's just a 1 minute scene, but has the type of character development that S3 barely had.
And S3 runs with the upper hand that it has characters that are already developed.

 

[orient]

I very clearly outlined where you were misconstruing what I said (generally this is seen as a good faith gesture), a courtesy that you have not provided (a bad faith gesture).

When I said I'd given up on replying because it's a waste of time, I'm not sure what you expected to happen...? When you continued on anyway, quoting points you'd already made?

I don't owe you a reply, and not giving you one isn't a "bad faith gesture" -- that's what happens when you continue to argue by yourself.

I was thinking about the original, and look at the throwaway scene of the cat on the roof.
It's hard to say it's not constructed to show an analogue to Ryo situation.
The cat is on the roof, megumi is worried (like most people around Ryo are about him), then the cat jumps and lands just fine, her leg is now fine and he's well on the way to recovery.
Then Nozomi appears with medicine that is no longer needed.
It's the whole relationship "current status" of Ryo and Nozomi, she wants to help Ryo, make him feel better, but Ryo is already set on his ways and she isn't needed anymore and both are drifting away.
It gets deeper in the park scene when she just wants him to stay with her.

That's just a 1 minute scene, but has the type of character development that S3 barely had.
And S3 runs with the upper hand that it has characters that are already developed.

That's my main issue with III. I didn't so much mind the lack of progress made in the overarching plot, but it was the lack of character building that made the experience feel a little hollow to me. Bailu had the bare minimum in my opinion -- the nightly conversations with Shenhua and a small handful of interesting NPCs -- but Niaowu really suffered from the lack of character moments. The amount of times the "main cast" actually interacted with one another (outside of Ryo and Shenhua) is probably in the single digits.

 

[iknifaugood]

I don't owe you a reply, and not giving you one isn't a "bad faith gesture"

Please tell me this is a fucking joke because that is yet again misconstruing what I said. Not even misconstruing, that's just simply not what I said at all. The "bad faith gesture" that I was referring to was you replying by saying I'm "misconstruing" what you're saying without pointing out where or how, not that you didn't reply.

Also don't compare me to Ben Shapiro.

That's my main issue with III. I didn't so much mind the lack of progress made in the overarching plot, but it was the lack of character building that made the experience feel a little hollow to me. Bailu had the bare minimum in my opinion -- the nightly conversations with Shenhua and a small handful of interesting NPCs -- but Niaowu really suffered from the lack of character moments. The amount of times the "main cast" actually interacted with one another (outside of Ryo and Shenhua) is probably in the single digits.

So you agree with me? Jesus fucking Christ. If you don't even think the story is good then why were you arguing so much with someone who thinks it's bad?

 

[iknifaugood]

And S3 runs with the upper hand that it has characters that are already developed.

This is so true. I really felt this with the Shenhua conversations because in S2, we spent several hours getting to know her, asking her almost any question we want and S3 just kind of... does the exact same thing. Same thing with Ren; he and Ryo initially butt heads and then they develop a mutual respect in S2 and in S3 they just maintain their shtick. And that would be ok if S3 introduced new characters to shake up the mix but they don't even interact with the other characters till the very end of the game. I remember playing S3 for the first time thinking that the Old Castle couldn't possibly be the final area of the game simply based off how little the other characters had been in the game up to that point.

 

[orient]

Please tell me this is a fucking joke because that is yet again misconstruing what I said.

I'm genuinely not trying to misconstrue anything. There's no point belaboring this discussion. I'm willing to take your word that you weren't intentionally trying to misconstrue my points if you take mine. I think we're just on totally different wavelengths for some reason. It happens. We agree on some things...let's focus on that instead

Sorry for the Ben Shapiro comparison. Just a joke, but no one deserves that

 

[HazukiFCBR]

I understand the criticism here but I still feel like it's kinda exagerated. The game isn't broken. It's still a decent game at its core. Same for the story. The problem is, for me, it looks like Shenmue, it plays like Shenmue but it's not Shenmue. For reasons I already established before (cutscene direction, character developpement). It's still an enjoyable trip, but it's not a journey and yes, kinda feels like a filler episode.

This has nothing to do with the "filler" thing. A filler episode would be smaller, but would probably be better. As I said, the game is a mess. The Storytelling is awful. Dope new characters. It has failed and it failed hard. The set pieces makes me cringe every time I remember how bad they are. A cut scene....fade...loading... Another cutscene.... (Suposuly a sequence).... Fade.... Loading..... The fact is we had an epic game, Shenmue 2. It's sequel is 5% of what Shenmue 2 means and delivers. You've said best... Fell and plays line Shenmue, but, (sorry).... It's not Shenmue.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

This has nothing to do with the "filler" thing. A filler episode would be smaller, but would probably be better. As I said, the game is a mess. The Storytelling is awful. Dope new characters. It has failed and it failed hard. The set pieces makes me cringe every time I remember how bad they are. A cut scene....fade...loading... Another cutscene.... (Suposuly a sequence).... Fade.... Loading..... The fact is we had an epic game, Shenmue 2. It's sequel is 5% of what Shenmue 2 means and delivers. You've said best... Fell and plays line Shenmue, but, (sorry).... It's not Shenmue.

An absolute smattering of hyperbole and bullshit.

 

[VukBZ2005]

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

However, for the user "HazukiFCBR" to say that "It's not Shenmue", especially in the way he has, is ridiculous.

Anyone who seriously loves Shenmue can tell from the moment you "hit the ground" in Bailu that Shenmue III's a Shenmue game.

I think this person & many of those expressing disappointment must accept the fact that Shenmue III is the first series installment outside Triple-A territory.

It was the first time Mr. Suzuki developed a game with significant financial limitations.

So, it was bound to have plotholes & the like.

Now that the right assets exist & a reliable baseline's there, it's more likely Mr. Suzuki can produce a Shenmue IV that:
(a) Fully lives up to the series' legacy;
(b) Is 100% reflective of its new situation.

And it's not like he hasn't acknowledged the problems existent in Shenmue III, either.

If people read the interviews with him surrounding the game's release, he did.

We'll just have to be patient.

 

[HazukiFCBR]

It wasn't me that said it. But I do agree. I don't mind you guys being triggered with my criticism. I'm a fan. Die-hard one. What I can assure you, is that the best parts of the previous ones, is not in this game. I see some Shenmue things indeed. But definitely, is not enough to be replayed 3 times. I saw lots of people replaying the game, not for its good, but due trophies and stuff. It's a major let down, for the ones whom expected (me included ) the game to be at least enjoyable. Yu-San couldn't fulfill his promises. Would have been better he didn't do it in first place. I really believe if he had gone for a smaller scope, less space and mini games, focusing on the story, flashing out good new characters, the game would be awesome though. That last hour just shreds everything i hoped to see and feel about the game. Sorry, but it's my opinion.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Have whatever opinion you want, but no one wants to be told they're not a real fan, delusional or a fanboy because they enjoyed the game. That's your issue. Don't assume people's intentions. That seems to be the overriding negative message I have seen across the internet: "anyone who like Shenmue 3 is lying to themselves."

 

[HazukiFCBR]

Have whatever opinion you want, but no one wants to be told they're not a real fan, delusional or a fanboy because they enjoyed the game. That's your issue. Don't assume people's intentions. That seems to be the overriding negative message I have seen across the internet: "anyone who like Shenmue 3 is lying to themselves."

I didn't do that.

 

[iknifaugood]

I think this person & many of those expressing disappointment must accept the fact that Shenmue III is the first series installment outside Triple-A territory.

It was the first time Mr. Suzuki developed a game with significant financial limitations.

The Youtuber "TheGamingBritShow" compared Shemue 3 to Devil May Cry 5 in a recent video:
(around 4:00) and I think it's a very useful comparison. He discusses (as it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum) how valuable a AAA budget, and all the eye candy and polish that brings, is to reviving a dormant IP. Many people have argued whether or not S3 would have been a bigger hit with a bigger budget and that's probably true if for no other reason than better marketing and more appeal to the mainstream but, if everything else about the game design and story stayed the same, it would not have been a better game. You can't say the same about DMC5. If DMC5 released exactly as it is with worse production values, I don't think a huge chunk of that fanbase would suddenly think the game was bad.

What I can assure you, is that the best parts of the previous ones, is not in this game.

I agree with this sentiment and I don't think even people who like S3 would claim otherwise since, as evidenced by this very thread, there aren't many people leaping to the defense of S3's story. Most of my, and I assume many fans', favorite parts of the previous games (even more gameplay forward parts like the Yellowhead building) are inextricably tied to the storyline.

That seems to be the overriding negative message I have seen across the internet: "anyone who like Shenmue 3 is lying to themselves."

I definitely disagree with the way this has been framed, especially by more prominent Youtubers like Yahtzee and Jim Sterling. I don't like Shenmue 3 and even if I agree with many of their assessments, extending it to the fanbase is not cool. Especially because Shenmue isn't even that popular. Take it out on a more deserving target if you're gonna shame people for liking a game.

That being said, if you think Shenmue 3 has a good story, well told (or that it's an unchanged extension of the previous games) then I think you're as close to "objectively" wrong as it's possible to be in this kind of situation.

 

[Sh3ppy]

Many people have argued whether or not S3 would have been a bigger hit with a bigger budget

i think it’s almost guaranteed that if Yu had had a AAA budget, the game wouldn’t only have been more polished, but the story would also have been more fleshed out and coherent in parts. We know he had to cut out significant portions of the game which most certainly had an impact on the game’s narrative. These are the sacrifices that had to be made and a large chunk of people’s complaints with the game. Whether they want to admit it or not, budget placed significant restrictions on the game. Having said that, I still love it. A lot.

 

[iknifaugood]

i think it’s almost guaranteed that if Yu had had a AAA budget, the game wouldn’t only have been more polished, but the story would also have been more fleshed out and coherent in parts.

The quality of the story and writing is not meaningfully tied to the budget especially if the game was planned/written in advance. My main complaints with the story are that nothing much happens, it repeats itself, it is drawn out to an unbearable length, and it lacks the strong characterization that both previous games had. Ryo spends more time talking to Shenhua in the first half of S3 than he spends with Ren in the entirety of S2 yet her character is nowhere near as interesting and their relationship is still ill defined: throwing more money at it wouldn't fix that problem.

We know he had to cut out significant portions of the game which most certainly had an impact on the game’s narrative.

If Suzuki chose to cut out all the interesting parts of the story in favor of all the boring, nonsensical parts, then might I suggest he made the wrong choice? To my knowledge, the only thing of significance that was cut was Baisha and the (frankly insane-sounding) strategy mini game that would have accompanied it. According to the Kickstarter page, Baisha was replaced with the Castle section, so there's no reason to assume that the important story bits (Ryo giving the mirror to Niao Sun, confronting Lan Di, Niao Sun assuming control over the CYM, rescuing Yuan) weren't simply ported over from Baisha.

These are the sacrifices that had to be made

Debatable. I would have gladly sacrificed the forklift, the arcades, the Shenmue shrine, about 50% of the buildings in Niaowu, and the leveling/stamina systems in favor of a better story and/or another area (but I'm not sure how it all went down, it's easy to play armchair game designer).

Whether they want to admit it or not, budget placed significant restrictions on the game.

Definitely, but my point was that Shenmue 3 also suffers from issues that budget doesn't affect. It could have had a AAA budget and still be a fundamentally flawed game that would split the fan base whereas DMC5 would lose a lot of the polish and graphics but still be fundamentally appealing to its base.

 

[Sh3ppy]

The quality of the story and writing is not meaningfully tied to the budget especially if the game was planned/written in advance. My main complaints with the story are that nothing much happens, it repeats itself, it is drawn out to an unbearable length, and it lacks the strong characterization that both previous games had. Ryo spends more time talking to Shenhua in the first half of S3 than he spends with Ren in the entirety of S2 yet her character

It very much is tied to the budget. You might have the whole story planned out beforehand but you still need to have experienced and competent people to interpret/translate said story and make it work in game form. In this case, not only through cut scenes but dialogue and gameplay too. More money hires better people. It’s not dissimilar to why so many excellent books are rubbish when made into movies. But in this case it’s an even more complicated process in many ways.

Definitely, but my point was that Shenmue 3 also suffers from issues that budget doesn't affect. It could have had a AAA budget and still be a fundamentally flawed game that would split the fan base whereas DMC5 would lose a lot of the polish and graphics but still be fundamentally appealing to its base.

As I stated in the post you quoted, I believe most people’s main complaints would have been addressed with a higher budget which would in turn allow Yu to hire a better, more experienced team. I submit Shenmue 2 as evidence.

 

[code l name]

I think we are sort of conflating two separate things. Clearly in my mind the story suffers from lack of clear and significant development, very little stakes, lack of characterization outside arguably Shenhua and repetitive story beats. Now with more money you could have better script planning and scenario writing. Would it have made things better? I’m sure but I think fundamentally especially coming off Shenmue 2 many of us felt the actual meat of the story they were trying to tell in Shenmue 3 wasn’t enough. I think that’s where the fundamental issue arises from.

 

[Sh3ppy]

think fundamentally especially coming off Shenmue 2 many of us felt the actual meat of the story they were trying to tell in Shenmue 3 wasn’t enough. I think that’s where the fundamental issue arises from.

Yes but why is that the case? What is the major difference between Shenmue 2 and 3? Namely the massive team of experienced professionals who helped make the first 2 games a reality.

i don’t think anyone is disagreeing on what the issues are.

 

[hmjohnny]

As I stated in the post you quoted, I believe most people’s main complaints would have been addressed with a higher budget which would in turn allow Yu to hire a better, more experienced team. I submit Shenmue 2 as evidence.

Yes but why is that the case? What is the major difference between Shenmue 2 and 3? Namely the massive team of experienced professionals who helped make the first 2 games a reality.

I've been thinking of this lately.

This actually raises a really interesting point that I don't think you were intending to make. Namely that the reason Shenmue 1 and 2 were good was in spite of Suzuki, not because of him. Having a talented team, better writers, planners etc. made for better games but without those Suzuki himself just didn't know what necessarily made Shenmue great to a lot of people. A lot of bad decisions, like the stamina system and core gameplay loop came from Suzuki himself, making me question his competence as a designer (at least of console games) a little bit. Despite this, I'll still give him the benefit of the doubt for Shenmue 4.

I think the heart of the matter lies a bit in between the budget vs planning debate. A bigger budget would have made a better game, but Suzuki has always been known to suffer from scope creep and overestimate his budgets, as seen from all the promises of content for a KS game that made only $7M. Other factors played likely had a hand as well, like an inexperienced Dev team (with UE), and other things we can't possibly know about.

Of course there is a worse option in all of this: Shenmue's story was never good. I'll hold my breath on this one though until we get more of it to know for sure.

 

[code l name]

Yes but why is that the case? What is the major difference between Shenmue 2 and 3? Namely the massive team of experienced professionals who helped make the first 2 games a reality.

i don’t think anyone is disagreeing on what the issues are.

I think you are viewing the issue through an arbitrary lens here. Budget and money play a role but it’s not the only sole criteria for judging quality. By that same rationale Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides should be the best film ever since it cost $378.5 million dollars.

 

[iknifaugood]

It very much is tied to the budget. You might have the whole story planned out beforehand but you still need to have experienced and competent people to interpret/translate said story and make it work in game form.

Translation from Japanese to English would indeed be affected by the budget, but Suzuki has claimed to have the story written and planned--he's the designer after all, so those things shouldn't be affected by the budget. What were those books with the Shenmue chapters that Suzuki has been carrying around for 20+ years filled with?

In this case, not only through cut scenes but dialogue and gameplay too. More money hires better people.

Yes he could have hired better people to improve things like the combat system; programmers would have made the mechanics better, artists would have made the characters and animations better etc. But many of the issues that I have with the gameplay (an overemphasis on shallow minigames, grinding, repetitive objectives, the stamina/level system, and the broken economy) all stem from poor design decisions, which an increased budget would not have helped with. S3 is different from S1 and 2's design in some pretty substantial ways, unlike DMC5, which retains the series' identity and expands, rather than changes it (which is why there wasn't a huge backlash amongst DMC fans).

As I stated in the post you quoted, I believe most people’s main complaints would have been addressed with a higher budget which would in turn allow Yu to hire a better, more experienced team. I submit Shenmue 2 as evidence.

I think that most of the changes made to S3's gameplay were for the worse so unless a higher budget would've made Suzuki not commit to those changes then I don't see how it would make a difference. If the story was better that would certainly help, but the bigger issue at hand is what Suzuki is going to do in the future. He's going to be working with a smaller budget and has lots of story to cover, so how is he going to square that circle if the quality of the story is so closely tied to the budget?

I think you are viewing the issue through an arbitrary lens here. Budget and money play a role but it’s not the only sole criteria for judging quality.

THIS. Plenty of great games (with great stories) were made for substantially less than S3's budget.