Yu Suzuki Interview (IGN Japan): Reflections on S3, Plans for S4

[danielmann861]

I noticed Phantom River Stone's interview got linked over at Neogaf.

The type of response seen on Neogaf



I shouldn't be too shocked, but FUCK THAT GUY! Yeah, I said it. Fuck that guy! In what way is Yu a manipulative scam artist?

 

[iknifaugood]

I noticed Phantom River Stone's interview got linked over at Neogaf.

The type of response seen on Neogaf

View attachment 7823

I shouldn't be too shocked, but FUCK THAT GUY! Yeah, I said it. Fuck that guy! In what way is Yu a manipulative scam artist?

I just want to preface this by saying I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS. But the reason people think that is because of the amount of money that S3 was granted via KS and the "shady" way the KS and other deals were carried out. People believe that Suzuki is milking his fan base for money and failing to deliver an experience that lives up to his previous work (hence the Inafune comparison) and they attach a sinister motive to this--either that he took a good chunk of the money for himself or whatever. Once again, I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS, but this is why I don't think that Suzuki go the crowdfunding route again. The optics will be really bad no matter what.

it was pretty clear that integrating multiple gameplay systems into a deeper world economy was a big goal of his with SIII.

Not to be that guy, but I just searched the Kickstarter page and the word "economy" isn't used once but 5 of the stretch goals that were met are about expanding Baisha. Granted I didn't follow development closely, I basically gave him my money and watched the trailers, so I can't speak to the intervening 4 years, but I never got the sense that this was a goal of his from the KS. This is also the kind of stuff that relates to the above post.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Come on daniel you don't need to go far away to see those kind of comments, you got them right here too. The difference are that here ppl does it in a polite way because they love to call themselves critical and neutral (like you couldnt have those if you actually liked the game)

 

[GhostTrick]

I just want to preface this by saying I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS. But the reason people think that is because of the amount of money that S3 was granted via KS and the "shady" way the KS and other deals were carried out. People believe that Suzuki is milking his fan base for money and failing to deliver an experience that lives up to his previous work (hence the Inafune comparison) and they attach a sinister motive to this--either that he took a good chunk of the money for himself or whatever. Once again, I DON'T AGREE WITH THIS, but this is why I don't think that Suzuki go the crowdfunding route again. The optics will be really bad no matter what.


Not to be that guy, but I just searched the Kickstarter page and the word "economy" isn't used once but 5 of the stretch goals that were met are about expanding Baisha. Granted I didn't follow development closely, I basically gave him my money and watched the trailers, so I can't speak to the intervening 4 years, but I never got the sense that this was a goal of his from the KS. This is also the kind of stuff that relates to the above post.

In fact, when you listen to early interviews and the KS pitch, it seems like is big goal of his with Shenmue III was the character perspective system and Baisha. Those are the things that got axed.

 

[Neoblast]

A lot of things got axed it seems. Baisha was set to be the largest location with interesting mini games...

 

[hyo_razuki]

Baisha was also prioritized over Niaowu and Bailu in the order of the stretch goals.

 

[Sonoshee]

I noticed Phantom River Stone's interview got linked over at Neogaf.

The type of response seen on Neogaf

View attachment 7823

I shouldn't be too shocked, but FUCK THAT GUY! Yeah, I said it. Fuck that guy! In what way is Yu a manipulative scam artist?

He's either fishing for attention or he really doesn't know who Yu Suzuki is and what he's done for the industry.
Either way, the guy is clearly a pleb.

 

[Rydeen]

A lot of things got axed it seems. Baisha was set to be the largest location with interesting mini games...

Baisha was also prioritized over Niaowu and Bailu in the order of the stretch goals.

These comments prompted me to go back through a lot of the early Kickstarter interviews and things.

I get how it can seem like Baisha was meant to be the main location, and Suzuki does say that it's where the allure of new aspects for Shenmue III would be, but I think it's probably that it was initially more of his focus, from a gameplay and features point of view. Niaowu was always the city location. (Actually, the concept art for it is shockingly close to what was in the game.)

A few things that also stood out to me from looking over the interview Suzuki did for Project Update #44, in July of 2015:

- He mentions that they couldn't really continue the one chapter per location structure for III, so they collectively reconfigured the original story to fit into III.
- They then spent some time adding elements to the story, and revising.
- With the Kickstarter funds in place, they put together the plans for the project, given their budget at the time.
- All of the locations of the movies, battles, events, quests, etc, were plotted out within the progression of the game.

All of that was done by the time of the interview in July of 2015. Apart from contracting/eliminating parts relevant to Baish, I don't imagine those plans changed considerably. At the end of the Kickstarter announcement trailer, Suzuki says: "Shenmue 3 will be the story you have wait[ed] for. But this Kickstarter will be [a] real success when you choose to make it the full on Shenmue experience you have dreamed of." That still says to me: 'I will fill you in on what happens to Ryo after the cave, for $2 million, but if you want a full-scale Shenmue game, we need way more.'

I also noticed in the 1-year update video, that Shenhua's house looked like a one-to-one recreation of its Shenmue II design [0:26], and the whiteboard in the background [0:52] seems to have a bunch of Suzuki's scribbles for implementing events in Baisha. I can't read the handwriting very well, but the Tulou at the top has locations denoted by the auspicious beasts, and there's a note about jail cells.


I am really excited about the possibility of meeting MinMin in the next game, anyway.

 

[JCJ]

Great finds by all of you. I also went to the Kickstarter page the other day and that priority on Baisha took my attention too.

It seems likely that it was the section of the game most important for story advancement (while Niaowu was more important for the minigame feel, and Bailu probably for deepening the relationship with Shenhua). That's why, if it had to get axed because of mismanagement, the game suffered the most story wise.

If it had been Niaowu the one to get axed, we would probably be hearing complaints about Shenmue III missing completely the city feel of its predecessors, and being rushed for story advancement because of its precarious situation, and such.

In some way, this reminds me of the situation just after Shenmue I. We had been teased a lot about Shenhua and the story events in Hong Kong, Kowloon and Guilin, but they were "axed" from the first game (probably because of mismanagement too, as those Nagoshi stories tell). I personally had much less internet access back then (so I was less informed), and at the same time there was no doubt a sequel was in the works with those missing elements. But it's not that different from now from that perspective, and I hope it turns out the same this time.

 

[SMDzero]

If Baisha was truly the most important area of the 3 (logical as it was to be the finale of the game) why didn't YsNet START with developing Baisha and work their way backwards?

But I guess it would be odd if they ran out of money by the end and had to cut Bailu Village.... fans would have demanded Suzuki's head for cutting that!

 

[Sonoshee]

Yu and Deep Silver probably felt they couldn't get away with delaying it again to finish things up properly.
I'd have been happy to wait as long as needed to see Baisha in the game.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

If Baisha was truly the most important area of the 3 (logical as it was to be the finale of the game) why didn't YsNet START with developing Baisha and work their way backwards?

But I guess it would be odd if they ran out of money by the end and had to cut Bailu Village.... fans would have demanded Suzuki's head for cutting that!

Isn't great when you ask a question and immediately you answer it? I love that feeling.

 

[iknifaugood]

If Baisha was truly the most important area of the 3 (logical as it was to be the finale of the game) why didn't YsNet START with developing Baisha and work their way backwards?

But I guess it would be odd if they ran out of money by the end and had to cut Bailu Village.... fans would have demanded Suzuki's head for cutting that!

I'm assuming that Baisha was cut because the gameplay mechanics of a strategy game with multiple perspectives was too ambitious and too hard to implement. It doesn't really explain why the entire location was scrapped, but I assume that all the story content was ported over to the Castle (ie: Niaowu would have ended with Niao Sun getting the Phoenix Mirror and Ryo saving Shenhua, then she would have told Ryo that Lan Di and Yuan were in Baisha, then everything that happens at the castle would happen at Baisha). Games aren't made in chronological order; you tackle the most expensive sequences first (in almost all the trailers you can see basically final art mocap for the fight sequences), which is why I say Baisha was likely scrapped relatively early considering its only reason for existing was to implement gameplay mechanics that were expensive and had nothing to do with the rest of the game. Though obviously that doesn't mean that we will never see that location or experience those mechanics at some point in the future.

 

[orient]

Not to be that guy, but I just searched the Kickstarter page and the word "economy" isn't used once but 5 of the stretch goals that were met are about expanding Baisha. Granted I didn't follow development closely, I basically gave him my money and watched the trailers, so I can't speak to the intervening 4 years, but I never got the sense that this was a goal of his from the KS. This is also the kind of stuff that relates to the above post.

I didn't say it was in the original pitch. As with most KS projects, a lot can change over the course of a game's pre-production and development, especially if it lasts close to 4 and a half years. The economy was mentioned by Yu in the vast majority of pre-release interviews. It was clear it was a point of pride and focus for him.

Those who attempt to use the original pitch as evidence of some sort of crime being committed need to grow up (not you, but I've seen it a lot). It's fine being disappointed that we didn't get Baisha -- I am, too -- but whole areas get cut from games all the damn time, it's just that usually we don't find out about it. It's an unfortunate reality of game development, and if you aren't comfortable with big changes being made, or in this case, aren't willing to roll with Yu's choices...don't back the Kickstarter. Wait until the game comes out. Kickstarter isn't a pre-order system -- you're supporting a creative endeavor in its earliest stages, not buying a complete product that's set in stone. Again, I would've loved to see Baisha, but they couldn't make it work. It's unfortunate but I'm not about to crucify YS Net over decisions we have absolutely zero knowledge about.

We know why people say YS Net are scam artists, that doesn't make their opinions worth listening to. Those who seriously think Yu is "milking the fanbase" in an attempt to get rich, or whatever BS they come up with, are delusional man-children with nothing better to do than construct conspiracy theories on the internet.

 

[SMDzero]

I say Baisha was likely scrapped relatively early considering its only reason for existing was to implement gameplay mechanics that were expensive and had nothing to do with the rest of the game.

If Baisha was scrapped early, why didn't YsNet tell the fans until only a few months before release?

I guess it came down to what was more important: Story (Baisha Village) or mini games (Niaowu boasting 3 arcades).

Yu probably believed many fans were most excited about mini games & open world so Baisha got the axe.

 

[iknifaugood]

Those who attempt to use the original pitch as evidence of some sort of crime being committed need to grow up (not you, but I've seen it a lot). It's fine being disappointed that we didn't get Baisha -- I am, too --

Most people have no idea how games are made and game designers are used to being very secretive (partly because games really don't come together until very late in the process) and these things don't mix well on Kickstarter; particularly when you add a language barrier and have a story focused game, rather than a more mechanics focused game. I can understand why people expect more transparency from KS projects

whole areas get cut from games all the damn time, it's just that usually we don't find out about it. It's an unfortunate reality of game development

Ocarina of Time famously had an entire dungeon cut (the light temple, most of which made its way to the spirit temple, which is why there are so many light-related puzzles) and was dealing with massive story changes until very late in development. Wind Waker is also a legendarily unfinished game. It does happen all the time, it's usually pretty noticeable when something is missing from games--especially games with lots of cut story content (*cough* MGSV *cough*), but it's not always a kiss of death.

If Baisha was scrapped early, why didn't YsNet tell the fans until only a few months before release?

I can only speculate but it's probably because no actual story content was cut. I assume that S3 would have ended with Ryo and the gang in the exact same spot no matter what. Baisha seems like the kind of thing that would have been axed as soon as DS got involved because its exactly the kind of thing a producer would cut (with good reason).

 

[mjqjazzbar]

They probably realized they were spending too much time and money on something at the expense of the rest of the game, which is probably how most game development sagas go. If it’s been cut for good, I hope we at least get a look at what it was going to be like.

 

[Rydeen]

They probably realized they were spending too much time and money on something at the expense of the rest of the game, which is probably how most game development sagas go. If it’s been cut for good, I hope we at least get a look at what it was going to be like.

I still believe that Baisha was meant to incorporate some of the cut content from Shenmue II, while acting as a bit of a climactic area for Shenmue III. It seems like they probably did start development with Baisha, considering how much it shows up in early development footage. With those things in mind, I feel like it's entirely possible that Baisha does still get used in the next game (it doesn't technically have to be located in Guilin), but it would probably be divorced from a lot of the story content that was supposed to be there in Shenmue III. I imagine most of that was incorporated into the castle area.

I guess the question I would ask is, When the crew sat down to revise the story for Shenmue III, did they do the same downstream, or just leave the remaining chapters as they were. If, say, chapters 7-11 were left alone, I wonder which impulse is stronger: Having the rest of the series play out 'as intended,' or rework some things again to fit something into Baisha.

 

[orient]

I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that Yu chose side activities over story because that's what he thought fans wanted. I think he knew fans wanted both and tried to deliver in both areas as best he could. Shooting for the stars and falling somewhat short, basically.

As @iknifaugood has theorised, I think it's far more likely that Baisha was cut because the new, strategic "warring factions" gameplay simply wasn't coming together, or just didn't feel enough like Shenmue. In one of the Back in my Play podcasts with Ryan Payton, I remember Payton saying he would get into heated arguments with Yu about delivering something that the fans actually wanted, and that instantly made me think of Baisha.

 

[Yokosuka]

We heard Payton urging Yu to adopt a classic formula very early in the development, possibly before Yu designed anything so it still sounds odd that we got footage from Niaowu so late. Maybe he got fuming when he spotted Yu still working on it? It's a valuable theory nonetheless.

I'm less convinced about the Shenmue II recycled cut content theory. A lot of cut contents were already known (Tiger Building, the boat chapter, beta footage of temples and village that Ryo was supposed to visit before reaching Bailu). Is this idea related with the fact that Yu wanted to finish Shenmue 2 inside the cave to keep fans' interest alive, meaning much more was supposed to come initially?

I rather think that Baisha was destined to belong to Shenmue 3 since the very beginning, unlike Niaowu which sounds an artificial place came from nowhere for fan service purpose. But the 2015 artwork tends to contradict my thought!

According the 11-chapter concept art, Ryo was supposed to visit Shanghai and Suzhou after Hong Kong, and Suzhou is a semi-aquatic place a bit like Niaowu so maybe it's recycling. Notice that the first Niaowu/Choubu artwork features Chinese big doors sticked in water, implying the aquatic aspect was initially more important gameplay/storywise.