Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

[GhostTrick]

Saying Shenmue I never had this similar structure is also at least a little bit disingenuous, considering you're looking for Sailors AND Thugs in it. It's pretty much the definition of Shenmue I's main plot structure, actually.

Nah, the disingenous thing is to sum up Shenmue I as "sailors and thugs". The problem isn't to chase thugs as part of the plan. The problem is to have the very same structure for both areas.

Here's how Bailu is constructed:
- You're looking for someone who disappeared
- You find two random thugs
- You beat them and you fight their muscled boss
- The muscled boss beat the crap out of you
- You find a master to teach you how to defeat the muscled boss
- You beat the muscled boss

Here's how Niaowu is constructed:
- You're looking for someone who disappeared
- You find two random thugs
- You beat them and you fight their muscled boss
- The muscled boss beat the crap out of you
- You find a master to teach you how to defeat the muscled boss
- You beat the muscled boss

Now how is Shenmue I constructed ?
Dobuita:
- You investigate Iwao's death
- You learn about the mirrors
- You learn about the letter
- You learn about the Chi You Men and Lan Di going to Hong Kong by infiltrating the Harbor a first time
- You try to head off for Hong Kong
- You meet an opponent that is related to the Mad Angels/CYM and that opponent destroy your ticket

Harbor:
- You work to learn more about the gang in question
- You get approached by them
- Nozomi gets kidnapped and you get to save her at the exchange to defeat your friend
- You go back there to defeat all of them
- You defeat the gang leader and head for HK
- You're stopped by the final boss before heading for Hong Kong

Both areas have their own narrative structure. It doesn't follow the same pattern. But Shenmue III though ? It's IDENTICAL in the big lines. Not for Shenmue I. Not for Shenmue II either.

Excuse the simplistic comment it's being a long ass day.

Shenmue 1 main story: Find thugs/Sailors

Shenmue 2 main story (ignore disc 4): Where's Zhu

Shenmue 3 main story: Find Yuan/Thugs

The basic premise of the Shenmue games is very simple IMO. What the first two games do better is develop the stuff around it to engross you in the story, characters etc. There's repetitive loops in all the games but they feel less so in the originals because of the extra bits I've mentioned.

As I said, the problem of Shenmue III's story isn't "Find Yuan/Thugs". It's how that is deployed in the exact same narrative structure for both areas.
In Shenmue I and II though ? While you can sum them up like this (and that's being really unfair to those two games), both area have a richer narrative structure and both games have a different narrative structure for both areas.

People aren't complaining that all you're doing in Shenmue 3 is to find Yuan/Thugs. The problem is that you do it TWICE in the game as the main narrative structure for BOTH areas.

People aren't complaining because there's a "repetitive loop" in Shenmue 3 because the problem is the loop in question is the entirety of both areas. You don't drive a forklift in Dobuita then do it again in the Harbor. You don't search for 4 masters then air books in Wan Chai then do the same in Kowloon. But in Shenmue 3 ? The loop I explained up there is repeated twice. And that loop sum up both areas.

 

[LemonHaze]

It doesn't follow the same pattern.

How is it disingenuous in the slightest, actually? As spud mentioned, Shenmue I and Shenmue II flesh out more of the lure etc better than Shenmue III, but perhaps this is simply due to the fact that we've already learned everything we need from S1 and S2?

I still disagree heavily, the Shenmue series is basically a detective game, in fact this seems to kinda be referenced to in Shenmue III where Ryo says 'time to put on our detective hats'.

People aren't complaining that all you're doing in Shenmue 3 is to find Yuan/Thugs. The problem is that you do it TWICE in the game as the main narrative structure for BOTH areas.

I've had quite a few people complain to me that both Shenmue I and Shenmue II, back in the day, had these exact same problems.

 

[GhostTrick]

How is it disingenuous in the slightest, actually? As spud mentioned, Shenmue I and Shenmue II flesh out more of the lure etc better than Shenmue III, but perhaps this is simply due to the fact that we've already learned everything we need from S1 and S2?

I still disagree heavily, the Shenmue series is basically a detective game, in fact this seems to kinda be referenced to in Shenmue III where Ryo says 'time to put on our detective hats'.



I've had quite a few people complain to me that both Shenmue I and Shenmue II, back in the day, had these exact same problems.

It is disingenous to sum up games like this. As I said, it's far more fleshed than that. And then again, Shenmue III's issue is that it's about "Finding Yuan/Fighting thugs".
I also explained the differences in why same criticism doesn't apply to the first two.

 

[Reprise]

A lot of bullshit responses in this topic. A lot of people are lying to themselves out of their irrational dedication and fanaticism to Suzuki and Shenmue.

Shenmue 3 is a bad game. It's not just a bad game by modern gaming standards, but it's a bad game by Shenmue standards.

Shenmue 1 and 2 weren't about grinding. Shenmue 3 has implemented excessive grinding to the point it detracts from what we've come to expect out of a "Shenmue feel" or "Shenmue experience".

I think Ys Net could have made a good game on the budget they had, but the project was plagued by bad decision making.

The whole food system should have been scrapped, and that's not at all "like Shenmue". The whole gambling thing should have been sorted out. Some of you are saying "Asia" as in all Asian countries have strict gambling laws? Shenmue 1 and 2 just re-released 2 years ago and it didn't have this enormous run-around token system. It had normal gambling with the rewards being money.

Don't talk about "tight budget" when the game has the ridiculous "Face off" game. A team on a tight budget isn't wasting resources on that pointless, nonsensical crap.

We waited 20 years for this series to continue and it seems like the project got off track and lost focus for a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with what was great about Shenmue. There's no rational reason to have misteered this project after the base that was established in 1999 and 2001. Shenmue 3 should have been a basic continuation of the first 2 games, focused and tight. Instead we got this neandering mess that just isn't fun to play.

Look at the state of this post.

 

[LemonHaze]

It is disingenous to sum up games like this. As I said, it's far more fleshed than that. And then again, Shenmue III's issue is that it's about "Finding Yuan/Fighting thugs".
I also explained the differences in why same criticism doesn't apply to the first two.

You're just going around in circles now though. Regardless of whether you like it or not, the main plot of the whole series is about going after the people who are responsible for Ryo's fathers death. In Shenmue II I seem to recall fighting a large number of enemies actually, as I'm sure you would too.

 

[spud1897]

As I said, the problem of Shenmue III's story isn't "Find Yuan/Thugs". It's how that is deployed in the exact same narrative structure for both areas.
In Shenmue I and II though ? While you can sum them up like this (and that's being really unfair to those two games), both area have a richer narrative structure and both games have a different narrative structure for both areas.

People aren't complaining that all you're doing in Shenmue 3 is to find Yuan/Thugs. The problem is that you do it TWICE in the game as the main narrative structure for BOTH areas.

People aren't complaining because there's a "repetitive loop" in Shenmue 3 because the problem is the loop in question is the entirety of both areas. You don't drive a forklift in Dobuita then do it again in the Harbor. You don't search for 4 masters then air books in Wan Chai then do the same in Kowloon. But in Shenmue 3 ? The loop I explained up there is repeated twice. And that loop sum up both areas.

TBF I did say my reply was rather simplistic let me elaborate a little:

Shenmue 1: You're after thugs/investigating the whole story. What they do is impress on the player the lore, scenes, character development etc. Also you're right the Harbor is very different but the end goal is the same and some found that section tedious. I didn't I liked it but you get my point.

Shenmue 2: Find Zhu: Again it comes down to the development around it. The premise between Wan Chai and Kowloon is the same but fleshed out differently, the loop/focus is IMO near on the same.

Shenmue 3: Thugs and Thugs. What is missing is the stuff around it to lessen the fact it is the same gameplay loop. The issue I find with it is that there was no real development around these thugs/motives. Had they had that and mixed in the Shenmue lore from the previous 2 games in the same way I think we would be more accepting of it IMO.

 

[GhostTrick]

You're just going around in circles now though. Regardless of whether you like it or not, the main plot of the whole series is about going after the people who are responsible for Ryo's fathers death. In Shenmue II I seem to recall fighting a large number of enemies actually, as I'm sure you would too.

I think you're ignoring the bigger part of my post. Which actually covers what you're saying. The problem isn't "the sum up of the story". It's actually how it unfold.

TBF I did say my reply was rather simplistic let me elaborate a little:

Shenmue 1: You're after thugs/investigating the whole story. What they do is impress on the player the lore, scenes, character development etc. Also you're right the Harbor is very different but the end goal is the same and some found that section tedious. I didn't I liked it but you get my point.

Shenmue 2: Find Zhu: Again it comes down to the development around it. The premise between Wan Chai and Kowloon is the same but fleshed out differently, the loop/focus is IMO near on the same.

Shenmue 3: Thugs and Thugs. What is missing is the stuff around it to lessen the fact it is the same gameplay loop. The issue I find with it is that there was no real development around these thugs/motives. Had they had that and mixed in the Shenmue lore from the previous 2 games in the same way I think we would be more accepting of it IMO.

Shenmue 1: Yes, as a story arc. But not how it unfold. You actually investigate and do different things.
Shenmue II: Not at all. In Wan Chai, you arrive and look for Xiuying. You have an entire arc of investigation, first about learning the Wude, then Xiuying's teaching and then the infiltration of the Heavens HQ to meet Ren and go for Kowloon. In Kowloon, in search of Yuanda Zhu, you head into a fighting tournament to infiltrate the Yellow Head Building and fight Dou Niu. The entire plot is non linear, even though there are tedious tasks, you still follow varied objectives and the structure and pacing of both areas is completly different.
Shenmue III: Same gameplay loop, same narrative loop in both. Like, 95% exactly the same. Shenmue I and II don't suffer from the same issue. The problem is that Shenmue III not only suffer from padding and tedious tasks, the narrative structure and progression is also repetitive. You're not only doing the same gameplay loops, you're also going through the same story loops. That is unique to Shenmue III.

 

[spud1897]

I think you're ignoring the bigger part of my post. Which actually covers what you're saying. The problem isn't "the sum up of the story". It's actually how it unfold.




Shenmue 1: Yes, as a story arc. But not how it unfold. You actually investigate and do different things.
Shenmue II: Not at all. In Wan Chai, you arrive and look for Xiuying. You have an entire arc of investigation, first about learning the Wude, then Xiuying's teaching and then the infiltration of the Heavens HQ to meet Ren and go for Kowloon. In Kowloon, in search of Yuanda Zhu, you head into a fighting tournament to infiltrate the Yellow Head Building and fight Dou Niu. The entire plot is non linear, even though there are tedious tasks, you still follow varied objectives and the structure and pacing of both areas is completly different.
Shenmue III: Same gameplay loop, same narrative loop in both. Like, 95% exactly the same. Shenmue I and II don't suffer from the same issue. The problem is that Shenmue III not only suffer from padding and tedious tasks, the narrative structure and progression is also repetitive. You're not only doing the same gameplay loops, you're also going through the same story loops. That is unique to Shenmue III.

I'm not disagreeing with you but just highlighting how, in my view, the basic structure is the same. How they're executed in the wider game is very different in the 1st two games to Shenmue 3

 

[Sh3ppy]

Deep Silver’s revenue estimates to be adjusted downward by almost $8 million due to poor Shenmue III sales...

As has been said, this has been shown for what it was. i.e- wildly inaccurate.

im guessing you knew this already though.

 

[Dietsoap]

Look at the state of this post.

In all seriousness, how hard is it to simply criticize a game without attacking and strawmanning the people that like it?

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Aw, I had a great post telling off Thomasina because he can't multi-task at work and because he's being toffee-nosed!

Oh well...

Seriously though, saying that you can't get, "everything you need to get done in a day," at once is ridiculous, beyond presumptuous and has little to nothing to do with Shenmue III's development.

I get the reasoning behind it, but a game is developed over a period of years; 1 day of work can be very simplistic, even if there is a lot to do; these analogies are not apt in the slightest.

For example, this morning I had to;

- respond to half a dozen voicemails.
- respond to 3 chat tickets.
- respond to 5 emails.
- issue a potential fraud alert to an entire branch.
- process a loan application and prepare it for (physical) filing.
- setup the coffee machine (fill it with water and clean it up).

All the while, answering telephone calls (when I wasn't calling the voicemails back).

I did this all accurately and efficiently (we're checked here for accuracy) in a few seconds over 11 minutes time (I checked my audits from this morning, just to see the exact time, to the second lol).

If you have to:

- build a game engine FROM SCRATCH, in an engine NO ONE ON YOUR TEAM HAS ANY REAL EXPERIENCE IN.
- cut/trim/remove or add focus to specific story parts.
- write a script.
- compose music (albeit not a ton)
- do mocap
- program
- code
- 50 million other things

All the while, hiring the team and giving interviews, has absolutely no comparison with a single day at work.

People are annoying sometimes...

EDIT* I know I wrote an essay and harped on one little thing he said, but it sticks in my craw; maybe YOU can't get that done in a day, because you're incompetent, but then again, 90% of the world is flat-out incompetent at their job (hence why there are all the problems in the world...).

 

[iknifaugood]

Is Yu Suzuki out of touch on gaming standards or did he do the best he could with what little he had?

Both.

(EDIT) As a UE4 developer, I resent the suggestion that Yu Suzuki had "little" to work with. Amazing games have been made with far less and Suzuki was given millions of dollars by fans who were waiting 20 years for him to continue the series; he was unbelievably lucky to be given that opportunity.

If you have to:

- build a game engine FROM SCRATCH, in an engine NO ONE ON YOUR TEAM HAS ANY REAL EXPERIENCE IN.
- cut/trim/remove or add focus to specific story parts.
- write a script.
- compose music (albeit not a ton)
- do mocap
- program
- code
- 50 million other things

All the while, hiring the team and giving interviews, has absolutely no comparison with a single day at work.

People are annoying sometimes...

This is true of almost every game ever made and was certainly true of S1 and 2.

 

[LemonHaze]

In all seriousness, how hard is it to simply criticize a game without attacking and strawmanning the people that like it?

Wait what? Please elaborate on this, perhaps there's something I'm missing.

EDIT: Nevermind! lol

 

[B-Man]

Aw, I had a great post telling off Thomasina because he can't multi-task at work and because he's being toffee-nosed!

Oh well...

Seriously though, saying that you can't get, "everything you need to get done in a day," at once is ridiculous, beyond presumptuous and has little to nothing to do with Shenmue III's development.

I get the reasoning behind it, but a game is developed over a period of years; 1 day of work can be very simplistic, even if there is a lot to do; these analogies are not apt in the slightest.

For example, this morning I had to;

- respond to half a dozen voicemails.
- respond to 3 chat tickets.
- respond to 5 emails.
- issue a potential fraud alert to an entire branch.
- process a loan application and prepare it for (physical) filing.
- setup the coffee machine (fill it with water and clean it up).

All the while, answering telephone calls (when I wasn't calling the voicemails back).

I did this all accurately and efficiently (we're checked here for accuracy) in a few seconds over 11 minutes time (I checked my audits from this morning, just to see the exact time, to the second lol).

If you have to:

- build a game engine FROM SCRATCH, in an engine NO ONE ON YOUR TEAM HAS ANY REAL EXPERIENCE IN.
- cut/trim/remove or add focus to specific story parts.
- write a script.
- compose music (albeit not a ton)
- do mocap
- program
- code
- 50 million other things

All the while, hiring the team and giving interviews, has absolutely no comparison with a single day at work.

People are annoying sometimes...

EDIT* I know I wrote an essay and harped on one little thing he said, but it sticks in my craw; maybe YOU can't get that done in a day, because you're incompetent, but then again, 90% of the world is flat-out incompetent at their job (hence why there are all the problems in the world...).

But wait, he can't properly clean out his basement without a blueprint detailing exactly how, where, and when he will execute each step!

Your argument is invalid! Yu Suzuki is a fraud!!!!!!!!!

 

[LemonHaze]

(EDIT) As a UE4 developer, I resent the suggestion that Yu Suzuki had "little" to work with. Amazing games have been made with far less and Suzuki was given millions of dollars by fans who were waiting 20 years for him to continue the series; he was unbelievably lucky to be given that opportunity.

So as a UE4 developer, I don't think you'd be saying these sorts of things. Making games such as Shenmue, especially for consoles is very expensive.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

This is true of almost every game ever made and was certainly true of S1 and 2.

Indeed.

And comparing that to a single day at work has to do with what, exactly?

Not fighting you, just pointing out that his analogy is ridiculous and not apt in the slightest. If the guy is a shit multi-tasker in real-life, then how could he comprehend what a dev team has to go through? Then again, he clearly doesn't take others' opposing opinions with any degree of sincerity, so that makes sense...

But wait, he can't properly clean out his basement without a blueprint detailing exactly how, where, and when he will execute each step!

Your argument is invalid! Yu Suzuki is a fraud!!!!!!!!!

And that's exactly what I was getting at; the guy clearly has little regard for others' opinions, so if he can't fathom that it is indeed possible to multi-task and get things done, then how could he empathise with a video game team?

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I know they've been gone for a few months, but I'd REALLY like to have such board sages, as @DigitalDuck, @Spaghetti , weigh in on this; one of them has great technical knowledge and is incredibly practical, while the other knows the workings of things and is eloquent-enough to explain and all that jazz

 

[LemonHaze]

I know they've been gone for a few months, but I'd REALLY like to have such board sages, as @DigitalDuck, @Spaghetti , weigh in on this; one of them has great technical knowledge and is incredibly practical, while the other knows the workings of things and is eloquent-enough to explain and all that jazz

I mean, I'm a game developer for almost 20 years now xD

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I know they've been gone for a few months, but I'd REALLY like to have such board sages, as @DigitalDuck, @Spaghetti , weigh in on this; one of them has great technical knowledge and is incredibly practical, while the other knows the workings of things and is eloquent-enough to explain and all that jazz

I'd love to hear their thoughts on this game. I keep hoping I'll see a post every time I log on.

 

[iknifaugood]

So as a UE4 developer, I don't think you'd be saying these sorts of things. Making games such as Shenmue, especially for consoles is very expensive.

Making a game with a budget north of $7M is like winning the lottery and almost any developer would kill for the opportunity. A Hat in Time was Kickstarted for $300k with a team of 5 guys and managed to be almost as good as Mario. Also, porting a UE4 game to PS4 and Xbox is not especially expensive.

Not fighting you, just pointing out that his analogy is ridiculous and not apt in the slightest. If the guy is a shit multi-tasker in real-life, then how could he comprehend what a dev team has to go through?

True, didn't realize the comparison being made. Disregard.