Is Yu Suzuki out of touch with gaming standards?

iknifaugood said:
Imagine being a developer who thinks that Shenmue is a more difficult game to make than Mario. No one has even been able to replicate the planet mechanics of Mario Galaxy because it's as close to black magic as a game has ever come but you're right, a game where you run around a city talking to people is way harder to make.

This is not to take anything away from Shenmue btw, it's just not that type of game.
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You didn't say which Mario to be fair. You're comparing two very different genres here. Completely irrelevant titles to eachother actually.
 
X velocity = X velocity + (Well's Force (A) / Distance^2) * Cos(Angle between well & player)
Y velocity = Y velocity + (Well's Force (A) / Distance^2) * Sin(Angle between well & player)

oops, just posting some black magic here
 
iknifaugood said:
You have to integrate their API and follow certain rules pertaining to trophies/achievements as well as software updates. It costs money to submit your game to both marketplaces and keep it updated unless your company has a relationship with Sony or MS.
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In Unity at least the core api changes are handled by the engine (after you install the SDK), you'll only need to implement it for certain console specific things like achievements, photocapture, networking (and again, it's just adding a bunch of pragmas here and there except for multiplayer games). Sony lends most devs the devkit for testing (specially for an exclusive game like S3).
 
shredingskin said:
In Unity at least the core api changes are handled by the engine (after you install the SDK), you'll only need to implement it for certain console specific things like achievements, photocapture, networking (and again, it's just adding a bunch of pragmas here and there except for multiplayer games). Sony lends most devs the devkit for testing (specially for an exclusive game like S3).
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But this is still irrelevant really isn't it, because it still costs money to press discs and to do testing which Sony will perform themselves when you submit it. You do your own testing, yes, but Sony will still test it against TRCs.
 
LemonHaze said:
Ah, the Interact button. One which has many uses. Either way, to address your first point comparing a 3D platformer and a 3D open world game set in the 80s in China:

Movement with velocity isn't really all that hard to achieve, you have set limits whereby you can be propelled in which ever direction you like. It is actually very simple. Something which has been done for many many years, even on old consoles which have constraints such as RAM or CPU cycles. It's really just as simple as that.

Shenmue in comparison uses inverse kinematics to ensure that all characters feet remain planted on the ground. Inherently due to the number of NPCs in both Bailu and Niaowu, compared to your example, this is more computationally expensive. Especially considering the higher poly count and shader instructions, across all instances.

You say actual AI, but I'm afraid I don't really know if you understand it, nevermind myself. The schedules present in Shenmue III, I'd say most certainly pass as simulation as far as the previous games are concerned. All NPCs have one and they are all unique and some of them have a certain degree of variance to them.

Take Shenhua as well for example, who develops the more you interact with her. All NPCs also have fairly decent pathfinding.
Your example is a 3D platformer with very little story, or at least not a story from more than 20 years ago, it is also not set in the real world, where there are functioning markets and a gambling setup.

Story is a very relevant point here. Every voice you hear has been cast for this game specifically and therefore has been paid as such, each line of text and dialogue has been translated and localized and audio has been designed, written and recorded, levels and models have been designed, modeled, textured and optionally animated.
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None of this is addressing my point that making a game like Mario is significantly harder to do than it is to make a game like Shenmue. It honestly sounds like you're agreeing with me since, as you rightly point out, most of what makes Shenmue expensive is on the art side (IK calculations? Really? Ocarina of Time had that on N64), nothing that would require a tremendous amount of programming expertise, engine editing, or prototyping/testing. If you were to make a game with Shenmue's exact mechanics but with a smaller scope (less detailed environments and NPCs), it would basically be a point and click adventure game.

LemonHaze said:
You're comparing two very different genres here. Completely irrelevant titles to eachother actually.
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I'm comparing A Hat in Time's achievements on a $300k budget to S3's lack of achievement with a budget more than 20 times that amount. Because budget isn't an excuse for S3.

LemonHaze said:
X velocity = X velocity + (Well's Force (A) / Distance^2) * Cos(Angle between well & player)
Y velocity = Y velocity + (Well's Force (A) / Distance^2) * Sin(Angle between well & player)

oops, just posting some black magic here
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You must be trolling.
 
高野和泉 said:
On another note, I think the black box of middle-wares has some role/effect on the production quality as well. The time/resources to figure out all the logistics just wasn't favorable to YS net's new recruits and Yu's game-plans. Shenmue 1&2 was able to be tweaked & polished to the minutiae since Am2 had personally designed a custom F.R.E.E. engine along side Yu having many years of experience with the engine's previous iterations(w/VF) before work on Shenmue began.
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You raise a good point about middleware. Shenmue III uses CRIWARE Clipper just like the original games do to automate lip syncing.
 
iknifaugood said:
None of this is addressing my point that making a game like Mario is significantly harder to do than it is to make a game like Shenmue. It honestly sounds like you're agreeing with me since, as you rightly point out, most of what makes Shenmue expensive is on the art side (IK calculations? Really? Ocarina of Time had that on N64), nothing that would require a tremendous amount of programming expertise, engine editing, or prototyping/testing. If you were to make a game with Shenmue's exact mechanics but with a smaller scope (less detailed environments and NPCs), it would basically be a point and click adventure game.
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If it's not addressing it, then I don't know what is. You're the one not explaining yourself. The original games also had these calculations, wind simulation, rain etc etc on the Dreamcast, so I fail to see your point.

iknifaugood said:
I'm comparing A Hat in Time's achievements on a $300k budget to S3's lack of achievement with a budget more than 20 times that amount. Because budget isn't an excuse for S3.
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Well that's not really reasonable is it, they're both completely different games with a different audience altogether.
 
LemonHaze said:
But this is still irrelevant really isn't it, because it still costs money to press discs and to do testing which Sony will perform themselves when you submit it. You do your own testing, yes, but Sony will still test it against TRCs.
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Printing disks is the publisher's job.
 
高野和泉 said:
Comparing a plat-former to shenmue is just silly, they're not even in the same genre. On the note of black magic, Shenmue saturn footage already proven this series has its own proverbial black magic a decade before Mario galaxy.
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This is true. Shenmue on Saturn and Dreamcast was a monumental achievement in environment size/detail and graphical fidelity as well as an enormous risk on an unproven IP and game design. Games wouldn't catch up for at least another console generation.
 
Dg1995 said:
He isn't out of touch.

If he was then Shenmue 3 wouldn't have
2.A hide and seek mini game with children that was inspired from a Witcher 3 quest.
4.A fishing mini game that was inspired from some Zelda type games.
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While I agree on some of those points you made I do not on those 2.
Fishing minigames in japanese games have been around since the 90s so he could be out of touch with modern standards and still received inspiration from videogames from when He was active.
Similarly both Breath of Fire 3 and Zelda Majora mask had a side and seek minigame so in this case He could have been inspired by old videogames of when he was active.
 
iknifaugood said:
This is true. Shenmue on Saturn and Dreamcast was a monumental achievement in environment size/detail and graphical fidelity as well as an enormous risk on an unproven IP and game design. Games wouldn't catch up for at least another console generation.
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Hmm, now it seems that you're agreeing that IK calculations, physics simulations used in rain, humidity and accurate sun and moon positions are impressive, but for some reason, in your other replies, you were laughing at it?
 
LemonHaze said:
The original games also had these calculations, wind simulation, rain etc etc on the Dreamcast, so I fail to see your point.
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You definitely don't know what a simulation is.

LemonHaze said:
You're insane.
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You're arguing that a heavily scripted adventure game with one interact button is harder to make than fucking Mario and I'm insane. Cool. Try expressing that opinion to literally anyone who has ever made a game before. Maybe after that you can explain to them why L.A. Noire is so much harder to make than Breath of the Wild.

mjqjazzbar said:
I love reading arguments where it's obvious the participants are never, ever gonna agree. iknaufgood seems to specialize in this art.
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There's no "agreeing" in this particular argument. I'm right and he's wrong, but I'll stop now.
 
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