Were you happier with no Shenmue III? Or do you prefer living in a post-Shenmue III world?

[Godokunodan]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sorry, but didn't we do the EXACT same thing in Shenmue II? I seem to remember grinding for money quite a bit in Shenmue II. Many points where you needed large sums of cash to progress. Almost like cash was the new time mechanic in Shenmue II. It was what? $500 to meet Ren. Then something like another $500 to enter the first important street fight in Kowloon to keep going forward. Not to mention all the money you needed to grind if you wanted to buy moves in that game as some of the moves were pretty pricey.

Sounds like exactly what Shenmue II did to me. Sure, you could criticise those methods if you like. Nothing is above criticism. But to act like this isn't exactly what we did in the previous game (mind you Shenmue II is considered the peak of this series even though it has many of the same tricks in terms of its gameplay) is kinda foolish.

That's the funny thing about saying "this is what Shenmue means to me"...it means something different to EVERYONE. To me, this was no different to what II did. Maybe that's why I had no problem with it. It's the least of that games problems for me.

I'll say this. To me, Shenmue is less about the destination and more about the journey itself. After hearing Yu speak about it more and more...I kind of get it better than ever and understand why it is so personal to him...it's a complete reflection of his journey across China in the process of making Virtua Fighter. It's him reflecting that same journey through a fictional tale. Maybe that's why he is less concerned with plot and more interested in reflecting that journey? I mean I'm not saying its above criticism, but I think that's what Shenmue is to me. It's less about the destination and more about the journey. I've felt that way ever since I first played SII and had that moment of it clicking (if you will)

You are exposing the players who never beat Shenmue 2. Good job. Jk. Seriously you would have to grind cash in Shenmue 1 and 2 just to even have a complete capsule toy set. Some of the drop rates for the rares would have you spending 900 yuan . I personally save scummed the Duck Race to make my cash. Its more efficient than grinding, but dont act like you didn't need tons of cash in Shenmue 2. Someone missed the whole point of the Forklift job in SM1: you need cash.

 

[Richard Payne]

Being a newer fan of the series, I didn’t have the misfortune of having to wait 20+ years for Shenmue III, but regardless, I obviously could never long for a world where Shenmue III wasn’t a thing.

After finishing Shenmue II, I was left with too many questions, not to mention that I had got way too attached to the world and style Suzuki-san was able to craft. I wanted more of that.

Granted, I believe Shenmue III didn’t deliver as much as I thought it would, but at the same time, it did provide an experience that undeniably feels like “Shenmue”. I am not going to write a wall of text about the pros and cons of Shenmue III, you guys have all brought up fair and distinctive points on what worked and what should be improved/prioritized for Shenmue IV. I definitely belong to the group of people that demands bigger emphasis on plot progression, interesting secondary characters, better cutscene directing and pacing and new, unique music.

I am sure Shenmue IV will at the very least address a few of the shortcomings, not to mention improve on elements even Shenmue and Shenmue II lacked. But for what it is worth, Shenmue III did what it had to do and gave us hope to one day behold the end of this incredible journey.

 

[Sonoshee]

People like to twist Yu Suzuki's words to their own anti-Shenmue III ends. Game Informer asked Yu Suzuki on a scale of 1 to 10 how much does he love Shenmue III. Some hater on VFDC misquoted him to say he thinks Shenmue III should be rated a 6 on all news venues. People on here are saying the affinity system with Shenhua has been cut. I just watched a video posted by official Playstation channel where Yu Suzuki stated the affinity system is still in the game, it just affects how plesantly or neutral Shenhua reacts to you when you are talking to here later in the game. Just because it has no affect on the outcome of the game doesnt mean it was "cut". There are a lot of actors with axes to grind against this game because its a Playstation exclusive or am Epics Game store exclusive. Im seeing a lot of fake news.

Yeah, its very sad.
But some people have nothing better to do sadly.

 

[lavrentis]

Definitely happier SIII was a thing.

We were all pretty ecstatic after that E3. Still go back to the AdamKoralik reaction video after it was announced.

 

[iknifaugood]

I also played the first two games right before playing SIII. All I'm saying is that your premise was that no die-hard Shenmue fan would enjoy heavy grinding, and my experience didn't come with forced grinding, because I kept up a normal Shenmue routine. So my scenario doesn't meet any part of your premise. Also, outside of gambling and herbs, I found chopping wood to be the most efficient job: It's possible to do 2-3 sessions in an in-game hour, and I averaged about 65 Yuan per attempt. That's an average of 195 Yuan per in-game hour, and 585 Yuan for three in-game hours--which I recall being the length of fishing and forklift driving.

At any rate, it wouldn't be new for the series, and it's even a part of Yakuza 2, I've recently found out, where you'd essentially be forced to grind mahjong, of all things, to turn around and pay an informant, four feet away--twice.

Some people are really on about this, though. I'm not really trying to defend this kind of gating, but I tend to barely notice it, and it's just kind of odd that it's such a big issue for people now. I still play a lot of really early JRPGs, though, so maybe I'm just immunized.

Just because it’s something that exists in other games doesn’t make it desirable content. I’ve played plenty of games that require it but I can’t say it’s been the highlight of any of them and they generally have far more substantial content than what S3 manages. A good chunk of S3 is spent grinding (It must’ve taken me a couple of hours for just the $2000, never mind the $5000 later on) and that’s something that was never part of the series before. Ymmv obviously but I found it absolutely painful getting through those parts.

Scoping the project was obviously an issue. I don't suppose you've ever set up a small game development studio, and produced a sequel to a niche, big-budget series, on a very modest budget, in order to provide more insight into the challenges with scoping such a project, have you?

Not yet. But I will say that this is a problem for most first time game devs. I would say that the problem with S3 was a lack of a clear identity. As everyone has pointed out, Shenmue means different things to different people but what does it mean to Suzuki?

I also wonder if it was possible that putting all of his eggs into one basket (ie. story) would have risked alienating another segment of the fanbase who care more about side activities, npc interaction, capsule toys, etc.

It may have but story is clearly the main driving force behind continuing the series.

Are you certain? Did you formulate this idea of the ending cutscene from one viewing, or multiple?
I might be crucified for this, but I'm not a fan of Star Wars, and wouldn't really use it to gauge any sort of cinematography, personally.
I'm not saying that Shenmue III is quite this detailed, or intentional as these examples, but this video essay might demonstrate what I'm intending to point out here:

I really don’t see S3 having very much thought put into the cutscenes to give them that amount of credit. As I mentioned the exposition cutscenes are filled with boring blocking and uninteresting dialogue dumps that spell things out for the player and repeat information, there’s very little subtlety to it.

Not sure how you're going about your calculations. In SII Ryo is dealing in HKD. In Guilin, he's using Yuan.

In S2, Ryo needs -$1000 total, in S3 he needs -$7000. I don’t care what the exchange rate is, the result is way more hours of my time spent on not terribly fun tasks.

You mean aside from the scene where Shenhua and Ryo are standing in front of the one outside her house, talking about how pretty it is in full bloom, and that it will lose its petals soon?

If you found that adequate then power to you. I figured the Shenmue tree being such an obvious big deal in S2 would’ve carried over a bit in S3. Ryo doesn’t know there are multiple trees so it should’ve been news to him at least. Especially since he felt such a strong spiritual connection to it.

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

Everyone's excusing Shenmue 3 because of it's budget but this game was created by Ninja Theory in 3 years with 13 people and a $300k budget. Some caveats it is linear and only 7 hours long but damn I bet it feels way more engaging and the character models look amazing considering the budget. Gives you a bit of perspective.

 

[orient]

Everyone's excusing Shenmue 3 because of it's budget but this game was created by Ninja Theory in 3 years with 13 people and a $300k budget. Some caveats it is linear and only 7 hours long but damn I bet it feels way more engaging and the character models look amazing considering the budget. Gives you a bit of perspective.

This is a bad comparison that's been shot down so many times already. Not only is it a short game, it's linear and full of corridor environments, its gameplay systems are barebones, and there aren't many characters (unique models). Ninja Theory are also an experienced studio who are top-of-class in terms of visuals and mo-cap animation. It's mighty impressive what they achieved but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison to SIII. Far from it.

 

[hmjohnny]

This is a bad comparison that's been shot down so many times already. Not only is it a short game, it's linear and full of corridor environments, its gameplay systems are barebones, and there aren't many characters (unique models). Ninja Theory are also an experienced studio who are top-of-class in terms of visuals and mo-cap animation. It's mighty impressive what they achieved but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison to SIII. Far from it.

I kind of agree, they are completely different games in scope and design. I think the comparison however comes from the idea that Ninja Theory was very focused and knew the limitations of their budget and worked within their strengths to maximize that budget.

With Shenmue 3 it did seem that the teams ambition overgrew what they could realistically implement. You can kind of see that with all of the broken or limited kickstarter promises for features that were descoped or changed in the final version of the game.

 

[iknifaugood]

Regarding Hellblade v. Shenmue 3:

Not only is it a short game

If by short you mean "takes little time to complete" then sure, this is a fair point. If by short you mean "has a dearth of content" then I would say both games are pretty even. If Hellblade had randomly tasked the player with the amount of grinding that S3 necessitates then it would very easily have matched it in length.

it's linear and full of corridor environments

S3 is completely linear in terms of progression (we all played the exact same way, maybe just earned money in different ways) and while it doesn't have corridor environments, S3 also lacks the variety of level design seen in Hellblade (to say nothing of FX, lighting, and post processes). S3 takes place in 2 relatively restrictive locations with a very limited moveset and way of interacting with the environment so while I agree that the comparison isn't apples to apples, it's not like it was "easy" to make Hellblade's environments.

its gameplay systems are barebones

You really think S3 offered deep gameplay systems?

there aren't many characters (unique models)

But the ones that exist are of a much higher fidelity than S3 so that has to count for something.

Ninja Theory are also an experienced studio who are top-of-class in terms of visuals and mo-cap animation.

Hellblade still cost under $10M to develop, which is around half what their previous project DMC cost, so I would argue this is a perfect example of a studio expertly scaling back and focusing their project, rather than attempting to mimic past glories. Not simply, "Ninja Theory are amazing devs" which is more than a little insulting to the S3 team.

(EDIT) Hellblade also has better writing, acting, cutscenes, storytelling, and overall production quality so that all has to count for something (especially to those of us who value Shenmue's story above all).

 

[mjqjazzbar]

If you take all the cutscenes and grinding out of most RPGs they’ll all be short. Come on, man. That’s a foolish statement. I’ve played Hellblade (I beat it... check my PSN) and it’s not remotely comparable to anything Shenmue 3 tries to accomplish.

 

[iknifaugood]

If you take all the cutscenes and grinding out of most RPGs they’ll all be short.

Shenmue 3 isn't an RPG. Most RPGs (at least JRPGs) focus on story and combat so obviously removing them would be detrimental. Believe me I wish Shenmue 3 focused on combat and story as much as a traditional RPG...

I’ve played Hellblade and it’s not remotely comparable to anything Shenmue 3 tries to accomplish.

They're different but I will say that imo Hellblade is vastly more successful at what it sets out to do than S3 and if the purpose of the comparison is what can be achieved with a ~$10M budget then I don't think S3 compares favorably. Yes it tries to be bigger in a lot of ways but that's not in and of itself a good thing.

 

[Creward]

To be fair, in Yakuza 2, if you suck at Majong like I did, they let you pass that part of the game with the informant. The guy who keeps beating you takes pity on you.

On the other hand, grinding is a big part of Yakuza. Even if you are not grinding money, you have to grind XP. You pretty much have to turn the part of your brain off that gets bored during grinding to excell at Yakuza.

That said, you can just fish or catch ducks or do 3 shifts in one day on the forklift to get money. You only need more money than usual if you suck at the game and keep losing fights. Also you can just max bet in New Paradise and pick the 30X bet Lucky Hit to get all the tokens you can possibly need. I got the cool Satin Flight Jacket, Black Jeans , cola shirt, and all the Yuan(buy the space ship and sell it 10x)( I could ever need winning the 30X bet Lucky Hit on my first play through. You just have to pay attention to the game world, and min-max. Play smarter, not harder. Some people just want to complain instead of being solution oriented.

Well it is a bit of an unfair comparison. Yakuza is a jrpg and those are the epitome of grinding to advance.

Shenmue was/is closer to monkey island than Yakuza because the main gameplay loop is searching clues.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

Yeah dude Shenmue III it's a piece of shit, whatever you say.

WERE YOU HAPPIER WITH NO SHENMUE III? OR DO YOU PREFER LIVING IN A POST-SHENMUE III WORLD?

This is the topic's title btw. Focus.

 

[darksniper]

I'm happier with Shenmue III being here because after the smoke has cleared. I want Shenmue 4 just as bad as I wanted to play II and III.

 

[Godokunodan]

I'm happier with Shenmue III being here because after the smoke has cleared. I want Shenmue 4 just as bad as I wanted to play II and III.

Hey Darksniper, do you play Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown on XBL? I remember coming across a Jeffry player with your name.

 

[darksniper]

Hey Darksniper, do you play Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown on XBL? I remember coming across a Jeffry player with your name.

I play VF sometimes but Jeffry's not my main. I usually use Kage :)

 

[高野和泉]

S3 has great enviroments, archetics, & quality textures. I'm anticipating SIV will be even more phenominal if things continue to improved with a proper budget and a team with more UE4 experience. And throws coming back too.

 

[Rydeen]

@iknifaugood I'm not going to fight you on every point, because this is really going nowhere.

Not yet. But I will say that this is a problem for most first time game devs. I would say that the problem with S3 was a lack of a clear identity. As everyone has pointed out, Shenmue means different things to different people but what does it mean to Suzuki?

It may have but story is clearly the main driving force behind continuing the series.

I don't believe there's anyone who could have properly scoped this project, given the circumstance (in other words, without pissing off a segment of the fanbase). It seems you're only couching the way in which you agree.

I really don’t see S3 having very much thought put into the cutscenes to give them that amount of credit. As I mentioned the exposition cutscenes are filled with boring blocking and uninteresting dialogue dumps that spell things out for the player and repeat information, there’s very little subtlety to it.

If you found that adequate then power to you. I figured the Shenmue tree being such an obvious big deal in S2 would’ve carried over a bit in S3. Ryo doesn’t know there are multiple trees so it should’ve been news to him at least. Especially since he felt such a strong spiritual connection to it.

By "exposition cutscenes" I assume you mean the ones that I already described as less crafted in the dichotomy between main story cutscenes and other cutscenes. At any rate, there doesn't need to be subtlety in the dialogue for there to be subtlety to the cinematography. There are plenty of examples of non-standard cuts and camera sweeps for dramatic/poetic effect in main story cutscenes, not to mention all of the subtle details in framing, facial expressions, body language, etc. You dodged my question (which was not rhetorical), so I'm going to assume that you took a single pass and are working just from memory. You also glossed over the part where a scene near the end of Shenmue II does largely what you said you couldn't understand at the end of Shenmue III, yet it potentially did so less effectively. I'm not sure if this will offend you--it's not necessarily my intention--but I honestly don't trust your ability to infer meaning from non-dialogue scene elements, so I don't feel this discussion will be productive.

In S2, Ryo needs -$1000 total, in S3 he needs -$7000. I don’t care what the exchange rate is, the result is way more hours of my time spent on not terribly fun tasks.

I don't think dollars have any real meaning here.
Regardless, those aren't equivalent economies, between Shenmue II and Shenmue III, independent of whether there's a simple conversion factor between the two currencies like from Shenmue to Shenmue II.
I personally find grinding can be rewarding once I've made it over the hump, but, like I've said, Shenmue III didn't have any real grinding. The first game, though, that one actually does force you to grind with the forklift.

S3 is completely linear in terms of progression (we all played the exact same way, maybe just earned money in different ways)

This really shouldn't even need a response, because it's so blatantly dishonest, but if you had to spend time grinding for money, you didn't play it the same way I did. If you didn't spend hours talking to random NPCs at various points in the story-- particularly when Ryo doesn't have an objective that requires asking NPCs details, in order to get more general conversations--you didn't play the way I did. If you didn't spend time trying to assemble item sets to trade in for move scrolls, complete the Rose Garden, complete sidquests, find chobu-chan, etc, etc, you didn't play the way I did. If you didn't spend hours playing Chobu-chan Fighter for prizes, you didn't play the way I did. If you didn't wander around randomly, taking in sights, and noticing little details like kids practicing forms together at the top of Hanasaki Dori in Niaowu in the morning, or verifying the partially implemented routines where certain types of NPCs are more likely to visit particular stores/stalls, you didn't play the way I did.

I could play Shenmue III 100 different times, and play it 100 different ways; same as the first game, same as the second game. So it doesn't really matter that the story progression is linear because you're trying to draw a false equivalence. Does Hellblade have that kind of breadth of gameplay? "No"? Well, all right then.

 

[iknifaugood]

I don't believe there's anyone who could have properly scoped this project, given the circumstance (in other words, without pissing off a segment of the fanbase). It seems you're only couching the way in which you agree.

I agree with this but there was definitely a way to do it that wouldn't have resulted in so much ridicule.

At any rate, there doesn't need to be subtlety in the dialogue for there to be subtlety to the cinematography.

I never said there needed to be. Cinematography =/= a well put together cutscene.

You dodged my question (which was not rhetorical), so I'm going to assume that you took a single pass and are working just from memory.

I've seen the cutscenes more than once.

You also glossed over the part where a scene near the end of Shenmue II does largely what you said you couldn't understand at the end of Shenmue III, yet it potentially did so less effectively.

You mentioned the beginning of disc 4 and I have no idea to what you were referring.

I'm not sure if this will offend you--it's not necessarily my intention--but I honestly don't trust your ability to infer meaning from non-dialogue scene elements, so I don't feel this discussion will be productive.

No offense taken. If this discussion is about how I'm failing to see the hidden depths of S3's cutscene direction then no, this will not be productive. May I ask where I've demonstrated an inability to infer meaning from non-dialogue scene elements?

I don't think dollars have any real meaning here.
Regardless, those aren't equivalent economies, between Shenmue II and Shenmue III, independent of whether there's a simple conversion factor between the two currencies like from Shenmue to Shenmue II.

For the purposes of gameplay they illustrate how much grinding for money the player needs to do.

I personally find grinding can be rewarding once I've made it over the hump, but, like I've said, Shenmue III didn't have any real grinding. The first game, though, that one actually does force you to grind with the forklift.

In your next sentence you accuse me of being dishonest so I'm just kind of stunned that these two thoughts can exist in your head at the same time.

This really shouldn't even need a response, because it's so blatantly dishonest, but if you had to spend time grinding for money, you didn't play it the same way I did. If you didn't spend hours talking to random NPCs at various points in the story-- particularly when Ryo doesn't have an objective that requires asking NPCs details, in order to get more general conversations--you didn't play the way I did. If you didn't spend time trying to assemble item sets to trade in for move scrolls, complete the Rose Garden, complete sidquests, find chobu-chan, etc, etc, you didn't play the way I did. If you didn't spend hours playing Chobu-chan Fighter for prizes, you didn't play the way I did. If you didn't wander around randomly, taking in sights, and noticing little details like kids practicing forms together at the top of Hanasaki Dori in Niaowu in the morning, or verifying the partially implemented routines where certain types of NPCs are more likely to visit particular stores/stalls, you didn't play the way I did.

This is just a list of things to do in the game, you could view almost any game through this lens. The progression of S3 is identical because the progression of the game is dictated by the story.

I could play Shenmue III 100 different times, and play it 100 different ways; same as the first game, same as the second game. So it doesn't really matter that the story progression is linear because you're trying to draw a false equivalence.

No I'm not. I'm describing what it's like to actually progress in the game; you're describing all the features. I can do this too-- I can play FF7 100 different ways: did you level up your entire party to 99? Did you master all your materia? Did you beat all the weapons? Did you talk to every NPC? Did you get the gold chocobo? Did you get Yuffie and Vincent? etc. Please. If you beat FF7, you beat it in more or less the exact same way as me and everyone else because the progression is linear, meaning that player choice or play style doesn't dictate it in any meaningful way (and even in this example there is far more player agency than S3 offers simply in terms of combat strategy and party composition).

Does Hellblade have that kind of breadth of gameplay? "No"? Well, all right then.

Uh so what? If Hellblade provides a more consistently entertaining experience then it doesn't matter one iota to me that I couldn't race turtles in it. Hell, S3 probably has "more" to do than S2 and certainly takes longer to complete so why don't you think it's better than S2?

 

[orient]

I had a much longer reply written but @Rydeen basically took the words out of my mouth. Basically, I don't buy any of that. Statements like...

S3 is completely linear in terms of progression

...I mean, really? Trying to equate Shenmue III's structure to Hellblades'. Structurally, Hellblade and Shenmue III are completely different. You know this, we all know this. Narrative linearity != structural linearity.

"Disingenuous" gets thrown around a lot as an easy dismissal but I honestly don't know how else to describe comparisons like that.