Random Shenmue III Thoughts

[KiddMarine]

For all the ending's issues (the comedy bits and fighting the backers still annoy me), the bit where Ren flings the mirror is one of my favourite bits in the whole series. They couldn't lay a finger on Lan Di, but with that one act, they still managed to fuck him over. I get the feeling Ren did it to save Ryo because he's his friend and not just because he needs Ryo to find the treasure, too. Really, everything with Lan Di and Niao Sun in the last 20 minutes of the game is fantastic, it's a shame some other elements let it down a bit.

As for the game itself, it's objectively a 7/10, but this playthrough it really clicked for me. For all its flaws it's still a true Shenmue experience. I got the same feeling walking through Niaowu as I did Wan Chai or Kowloon, that this is a real place and Ryo is just one small part of it.

If the NPC models are improved, and more time is spent developing the characters and moving the story forward, I see no reason why Shenmue IV won't be on the same level of the first 2 games.

Good times!

 

[spud1897]

If I’m reading between the lines it seems Yu initially pitched Sony to publish it? Instead of having to change the scope multiple times, it makes you wonder what could have been if it got proper support and funding by Playststion.

Ohh well, sweet memories nonetheless.

Yeah I'd say so and they either couldn't work it out or Sony said no but offered the stage. Basically a win win for Sony in that respect as they got a tonne of great press. I know people have some issues over the exclusivity deal and the E3 2015 showing but I honestly think without that massive push, that shock factor, that OMG its happening moment, we wouldn't have raised what we did. Certainly in my view for what it's worth.

 

[code l name]

Yeah I'd say so and they either couldn't work it out or Sony said no but offered the stage. Basically a win win for Sony in that respect as they got a tonne of great press. I know people have some issues over the exclusivity deal and the E3 2015 showing but I honestly think without that massive push, that shock factor, that OMG its happening moment, we wouldn't have raised what we did. Certainly in my view for what it's worth.

Absolutely, I tend to concur. If I recall correctly they had been turned down by Phil Spencer at Microsoft and it seems couldn’t secure a publisher thus Payton suggested Kickstarter to Suzuki. Given the fact they couldn’t secure any publishers at the time the attention they got from E3 presence was indeed huge and I’m also doubtful they would have raised as much as they did without it.

 

[SalsaShark]

For all the ending's issues (the comedy bits and fighting the backers still annoy me), the bit where Ren flings the mirror is one of my favourite bits in the whole series. They couldn't lay a finger on Lan Di, but with that one act, they still managed to fuck him over. I get the feeling Ren did it to save Ryo because he's his friend and not just because he needs Ryo to find the treasure, too. Really, everything with Lan Di and Niao Sun in the last 20 minutes of the game is fantastic, it's a shame some other elements let it down a bit.

As for the game itself, it's objectively a 7/10, but this playthrough it really clicked for me. For all its flaws it's still a true Shenmue experience. I got the same feeling walking through Niaowu as I did Wan Chai or Kowloon, that this is a real place and Ryo is just one small part of it.

If the NPC models are improved, and more time is spent developing the characters and moving the story forward, I see no reason why Shenmue IV won't be on the same level of the first 2 games.

Good times!

I just got to Niaowu in my second play through. Boy that big merry cruise ship is...vibrant lol.

But yeah those comedy bits at the end were odd. Strangely I didn't mind them during my first play through, but they stuck out way more to me when I'd watch streams. We'll see what happens when I get there again myself I guess.

I do really wish they had time to implement a full training sequence with Bei like they did with Sun. I keep having visions of Ryo falling into the river over and over while he learns how to move like a cormorant fisherman.

 

[orient]

I randomly heard a track from Bailu yesterday and my brain was instantly transported there. Say what you will about S3 but it creates a sense of place better than most games, in my opinion. I remember every spot in intimate detail, and it's not as if I've even spent that much time in Bailu all-told. I've played the game once, I didn't linger in Bailu, attempt to do every side-quests, or anything like that.

Great location. Would walk around again.

 

[Sergeynest]

For all the ending's issues (the comedy bits and fighting the backers still annoy me), the bit where Ren flings the mirror is one of my favourite bits in the whole series. They couldn't lay a finger on Lan Di, but with that one act, they still managed to fuck him over. I get the feeling Ren did it to save Ryo because he's his friend and not just because he needs Ryo to find the treasure, too. Really, everything with Lan Di and Niao Sun in the last 20 minutes of the game is fantastic, it's a shame some other elements let it down a bit.

As for the game itself, it's objectively a 7/10, but this playthrough it really clicked for me. For all its flaws it's still a true Shenmue experience. I got the same feeling walking through Niaowu as I did Wan Chai or Kowloon, that this is a real place and Ryo is just one small part of it.

If the NPC models are improved, and more time is spent developing the characters and moving the story forward, I see no reason why Shenmue IV won't be on the same level of the first 2 games.

Good times!

I also enjoyed the final moments of Shenmue 3; storming the castle área at the end almost seemed like a tribute to the Beat'em Up era of the 1980's and 1990's, Specially that moment when Ren and Ryo kicked the door to enter Lan Di's room.
It tottaly resembled those special cutscenes before fighting the final boss.
I just would have rather had fight the final three bodyguards instead of having a QTE sequence and could you Imagine how every Shenmue fan would have felt if Ryo landed just one powerfull punch in the face of Lan Di in a cinematic QTE sequence.
That single moment would have left everyone with a much better overhaul impression of Shenmue 3. At least that's how I would have certainly felt.

 

[SalsaShark]

Randomish question for the random thoughts thread:
Can someone summarize where the criticism about Ryo not recognizing Chai comes from? Is it from the notebook entries about his name or more than that?

 

[Nigel]

For all the ending's issues (the comedy bits and fighting the backers still annoy me)

I'm with you on the comedy bits. That whole aspect could've been used perfectly in the Red Snake fight when Ren joins (say, pretending to want to help, but growing lazy). Ryo's delivery of "How are we even friends?" is intoned quite well, and it takes me out of the scene each time. Small fish to fry, but I agree with you.

Randomish question for the random thoughts thread:
Can someone summarize where the criticism about Ryo not recognizing Chai comes from? Is it from the notebook entries about his name or more than that?

If I read it rightly, I think the criticism is more related to Ryo's in-game ignorance. E.g., he asks Yanlang, during the interrogation bit, who Chai is. He knows Chai from 1 (and, if we include the boat scene in between 1 and 2 as canon), so it seems odd for him to seem confused about who this dude is-- not that his appearance is all that inconspicuous either, hah.

It's similar to the inconsistency about Ge (Red Snakes' leader): his name is never mentioned in the game, yet the notebook says "defeated Ge."

 

[spud1897]

I'm with you on the comedy bits. That whole aspect could've been used perfectly in the Red Snake fight when Ren joins (say, pretending to want to help, but growing lazy). Ryo's delivery of "How are we even friends?" is intoned quite well, and it takes me out of the scene each time. Small fish to fry, but I agree with you.




If I read it rightly, I think the criticism is more related to Ryo's in-game ignorance. E.g., he asks Yanlang, during the interrogation bit, who Chai is. He knows Chai from 1 (and, if we include the boat scene in between 1 and 2 as canon), so it seems odd for him to seem confused about who this dude is-- not that his appearance is all that inconspicuous either, hah.

It's similar to the inconsistency about Ge (Red Snakes' leader): his name is never mentioned in the game, yet the notebook says "defeated Ge."

I wondered if it was an issue in translation rather than saying "who is he" to "why is he here". We don't know that Ryo knows Chai's name for example

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

If I read it rightly, I think the criticism is more related to Ryo's in-game ignorance. E.g., he asks Yanlang, during the interrogation bit, who Chai is. He knows Chai from 1 (and, if we include the boat scene in between 1 and 2 as canon), so it seems odd for him to seem confused about who this dude is-- not that his appearance is all that inconspicuous either, hah.

It's similar to the inconsistency about Ge (Red Snakes' leader): his name is never mentioned in the game, yet the notebook says "defeated Ge."

I wondered if it was an issue in translation rather than saying "who is he" to "why is he here". We don't know that Ryo knows Chai's name for example

Spud said what I would; to be completely honest, I don't think Ryo knows who Chai is; he always refers to him as, "That Skinhead, Creepy skinhead with bandages," etc. and even to this day (yeah, don't really care what the guidebooks say at this point), we still don't even know truly who Chai is aligned with; we know he isn't Chiyoumen (we went over this in the other thread, but the, "Me? Work for Lan Di-sama?) or if he is, he is indeed such a low-ranking member that he doesn't belong to any leader's camp and Jimmy says, "I think he's connected to the Mad Angels."

There is still a great deal of mystery to Chai.

 

[Nigel]

I wondered if it was an issue in translation rather than saying "who is he" to "why is he here". We don't know that Ryo knows Chai's name for example

That's fair. Given the development of the project, new staff and the like, I'm not too critical of it.
I merely think of the times Chai refers to himself in the third person, but we're also talking about a dude whose usual dialogue consists in "this must be..." for clearly obvious things, so I remain a minimalist

Spud said what I would; to be completely honest, I don't think Ryo knows who Chai is; he always refers to him as, "That Skinhead, Creepy skinhead with bandages," etc....
There is still a great deal of mystery to Chai.

No doubt. Mind you, I'm not one bothered by the Chai thing, but I think it's in that context that some moaned. I think your read is more on the level, the aura of mystique about the guy. So too, Ryo may have mentally brushed off the guy after dealing with him prior; he has other things to keep in mind, vs. some creepy skinhead.

 

[SalsaShark]

That's fair. Given the development of the project, new staff and the like, I'm not too critical of it.
I merely think of the times Chai refers to himself in the third person, but we're also talking about a dude whose usual dialogue consists in "this must be..." for clearly obvious things, so I remain a minimalist


No doubt. Mind you, I'm not one bothered by the Chai thing, but I think it's in that context that some moaned. I think your read is more on the level, the aura of mystique about the guy. So too, Ryo may have mentally brushed off the guy after dealing with him prior; he has other things to keep in mind, vs. some creepy skinhead.

Ah ok. I ask because I recently finished Bailu again with Japanese voices and noticed that Chai only ever refers to himself as "Ore sama" which, if my Japanese isn't too rusty, is just a weird way of saying "I".

That got me thinking, so I went through the Shenmue 1 cutscenes with Ryo and Chai in Japanese and Chai also only ever says "Ore Sama". The scene before the final fight against Chai where in English he says "The Great Chai will defeat you" (the only place he says his name in English I think) in Japanese is "Ore Sama ni makenai"("you will lose to me").

I also ran through the notebook entries for 1 and the beginning of 2, and Ryo indeed only ever calls Chai a creepy skinhead(@Peter can probably confirm in case I just missed it). So really the only thing Ryo knows about Chai at the end of the first game is that he's a creepy skinhead who really wants to work for Lan Di. Ryo doesn't know really who he is or if he's some other part of the Chi You Men.

The wrinkle is the boat side story. Ryo definitely yells Chai's name on the first page, and this is consistent with the Japanese language version(at least based on a Google image search for it). But really if Ryo doesn't know Chai by name in the first game, then he wouldn't on the boat either which makes the side story more of an inconsistency than Ryo's questions in 3.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

There an echo in here?

 

[SalsaShark]

There an echo in here?

Some crazy acoustics going on for sure!

 

[iknifaugood]

We don't know that Ryo knows Chai's name for example

I don't think Ryo knows who Chai is; he always refers to him as, "That Skinhead, Creepy skinhead with bandages," etc. and even to this day (yeah, don't really care what the guidebooks say at this point)

Remember the time Chai dropped a metal girder onto Ryo's friend's leg before both of them went to Hong Kong and then Ryo elbowed him into the sea (which was, like, a couple months ago in game)?


(17 seconds if that didn't work)


(11:13:50 if that didn't work) for the Japanese translation

Seems like Ryo would take a Chai little more seriously since, for all intents and purposes, Ryo attempted to murder him.

The scene before the final fight against Chai where in English he says "The Great Chai will defeat you" (the only place he says his name in English I think) in Japanese is "Ore Sama ni makenai"("you will lose to me").

If this is indeed a translation error then I have to ask what the purpose of the main character not knowing the name of a recurring villain is (both for continuity and for the sake of the audience being able to name the bad guy)? Also, surely a good chunk of the people who S3 is targeted at played S1 in English and saw the scene portrayed this way, which is where much of the confusion stems from.

I'm not too bothered by any of the Chai incongruities--I think there are much bigger fish to fry--but I will say that I never expected him to make a return and can't say I'm super excited to see more of him. I always liked the idea of Ryo overcoming a new baddie in each game.

 

[spud1897]

Remember the time Chai dropped a metal girder onto Ryo's friend's leg before both of them went to Hong Kong and then Ryo elbowed him into the sea (which was, like, a couple months ago in game)?


(17 seconds if that didn't work)


(11:13:50 if that didn't work) for the Japanese translation

Seems like Ryo would take a Chai little more seriously since, for all intents and purposes, Ryo attempted to murder him.


If this is indeed a translation error then I have to ask what the purpose of the main character not knowing the name of a recurring villain is (both for continuity and for the sake of the audience being able to name the bad guy)? Also, surely a good chunk of the people who S3 is targeted at played S1 in English and saw the scene portrayed this way, which is where much of the confusion stems from.

I'm not too bothered by any of the Chai incongruities--I think there are much bigger fish to fry--but I will say that I never expected him to make a return and can't say I'm super excited to see more of him. I always liked the idea of Ryo overcoming a new baddie in each game.

He would recognise him without doubt, assuming he does know his name I would still consider the possibility of a translation error. It's also assuming that most players have played the previous entries so know who he is. Hence what Ryo could say "why is he here rather than "who was that".

 

[SalsaShark]

Remember the time Chai dropped a metal girder onto Ryo's friend's leg before both of them went to Hong Kong and then Ryo elbowed him into the sea (which was, like, a couple months ago in game)?


(17 seconds if that didn't work)


(11:13:50 if that didn't work) for the Japanese translation

Seems like someone Ryo would take a Chai little more seriously since, for all intents and purposes, Ryo attempted to murder him.


If this is indeed a translation error then I have to ask what the purpose of the main character not knowing the name of a recurring villain is (both for continuity and for the sake of the audience being able to name the bad guy)? Also, surely a good chunk of the people who S3 is targeted at played S1 in English and saw the scene portrayed this way, which is where much of the confusion stems from.

I'm not too bothered by any of the Chai incongruities--I think there are much bigger fish to fry--but I will say that I never expected him to make a return and can't say I'm super excited to see more of him. I always liked the idea of Ryo overcoming a new baddie in each game.

One minor correction to my earlier post: the line from the fight at the end in Japanese is "Ore ni makeru kara" or "because you will lose to me". What I wrote before translates as "you won't lose to me". Sorry about that. I should've listened to it again before posting.

As far as what purpose the main character not knowing his name has goes, I can only speculate. My best guess is that he's envisioned as a golumesque nemesis that dogs Ryo throughout the journey and that we gradually find out more about. A slow name reveal might serve to play up the mystery a bit.

And yeah this doesn't really have much bearing on other story issues (which I have), but I think it's interesting and helps to clear up some stuff. It also makes me wonder if there are other places where the localization might be causing story confusion.

 

[code l name]

It also makes me wonder if there are other places where the localization might be causing story confusion.

Well @danielmann861 already found huge translation at the ending of Shenmue 3-
Yuan: The cliff temple that Zhao visited
Ryo’s: That’s where we found the scroll

Obviously it was discovered in tower in Bailu village which confused a lot of people.

 

[SalsaShark]

Oh yeah. Can't believe I forgot about that one.

 

[iknifaugood]

It also makes me wonder if there are other places where the localization might be causing story confusion.

I remember when there was debate over whether Yuanda Zhu meant to say Qing or Qin dynasty (though this was obviously only an English issue) but S3 pretty definitively puts that to rest. The Shenmue tree being a species of tree rather than a specific name is another possible example maybe? I think that when Shenhua says things like "the poem has been told in the village from long ago" and referring to the mirrors as "ancient" might have be lost in translation as well.