Budget Is NOT An Excuse

[Dg1995]

To say that story and writing didn't play a part in that is also ridiculous; GTA was primarily a single player franchise for most of its life, its setting is basically core to its identity, and it launched the acting career of one of its protagonists. To say nothing of the fact that Rockstar Games has always been on the bleeding edge of storytelling in games in terms of production value. You'd have to ignore so much about the history of GTA and the people who made it to make a claim like that.

In fact the exact opposite appears to be true; open world games with little-to-no story (Saint's Row, Crackdown, Just Cause etc.) have a fraction of the sales of their more story-driven brethren (GTA, The Witcher, Horizon, Spider-Man etc.).

It is not rediculous . GTA games never had masterpiece stories.
In them the story was always a parody of gangster life in America. That is why you basically feel that everything in them is a joke.
-radio stations don't take themselves seriously at all.("Exploder. Rated PG for having political garbage.")
-You get lots of joke characters per game. You slso have lots of dialogues that are just there to make you laugh.
-You have joke missions.(I mean, flying a plane to release your XXX movie in the city due to this that it was banned ? Using remote control toy cars to explode some gang cars ? )
-The gameplay itself is also parody.(Cars get explode when they get upside down on ground, Ambulances can revive npcs that are dead, Police will free you from jail after killing 1000 cops , police won't follow you when you use paint'n spray etc)
-In GTA 3 a game which made GTA popular the main character was a mute guy that never spoke even once.

Games like Just Cause failed to get GTA level popularity because they never had the variety of GTA.
Saints Row didn't become more popular because the developers never had the budget of GTA to compete with that, but another reason for that was due to how crazier it became compared to GTA.(From what I've heard you get Neo's matrix abilities in SR4 which SR 1 and 2 fans didn't like that direction.)

 

[Dehone]

It's structure is somehow the same, but it was done on purpose. It was done in a way to build up for it's plot twist.

You go to fight that mascular guy(And then you expect to get another interrogation scene) only to find that they have captured Shenhua and the story goes in a different direction that you didn't expect . It was a good twist imo.

Also when we talk about variety in games, we talk about different things that you do in a game.

It's like saying Tomb Raider games have no variety because you are just Tomb Raiding.(Which is wrong since you have platforming , combat , exploration ,puzzles and booby traps in TR games which add a lot of variety to the game.)

This is like the 5th kidnapping of a major character in the series. A major female character is pretty much guaranteed at this point so the kidnapping of shenhua to lure Ryo isn't as plot twisty as they might think they're making it. As opposed to Joy and Nozomi, shenhua being kidnapped didn't even come off as that urgent or serious, especially since she basically walked out with her kidnappers after being lied to about Ryo by some poorly introduced woman who turns out to be Niao sun.

 

[Dehone]

It is not rediculous . GTA games never had masterpiece stories.
In them the story was always a parody of gangster life in America. That is why you basically feel that everything in them is a joke.
-radio stations don't take themselves seriously at all.("Exploder. Rated PG for having political garbage.")
-You get lots of joke characters per game. You slso have lots of dialogues that are just there to make you laugh.
-You have joke missions.(I mean, flying a plane to release your XXX movie in the city due to this that it was banned ? Using remote control toy cars to explode some gang cars ? )
-The gameplay itself is also parody.(Cars get explode when they get upside down on ground, Ambulances can revive npcs that are dead, Police will free you from jail after killing 1000 cops , police won't follow you when you use paint'n spray etc)
-In GTA 3 a game which made GTA popular the main character was a mute guy that never spoke even once.

Games like Just Cause failed to get GTA level popularity because they never had the variety of GTA.
Saints Row didn't become more popular because the developers never had the budget of GTA to compete with that, but another reason for that was due to how crazier it became compared to GTA.(From what I've heard you get Neo's matrix abilities in SR4 which SR 1 and 2 fans didn't like that direction.)

Even if GTA stories aren't masterpieces, it's still ridiculous to say that the stories arent a major part of the series' appeal and success. Whether it takes itself seriously story-wise(it does at appropriate times) or gameplay-wise isnt really relevant. The story doesn't need to be a complex Kojima tale and it knows that. Rockstar knows they can have a simpler story to tell that is still engaging.

And Saint Row was very popular. Not gta level but still cracked out 4 or 5 games and sold well. They realized making over the top sandbox experiences was the best option to be a successful gta clone. Not to mention, the characters arent too bad themselves. People loved Johnny Gat enough to where he got his own spinoff. Giving the main character a voice as well as the option to choose what type of voice made your character more likeable as he/she had a personality as a charismatic smartass who is just as ruthless as he/she is funny

Just Cause did the same thing by making you an action hero as opposed to a street thug(although just cause stories are boring and so are the characters).

 

[iknifaugood]

It is not rediculous . GTA games never had masterpiece stories.
In them the story was always a parody of gangster life in America. That is why you basically feel that everything in them is a joke.
-radio stations don't take themselves seriously at all.("Exploder. Rated PG for having political garbage.")
-You get lots of joke characters per game. You slso have lots of dialogues that are just there to make you laugh.
-You have joke missions.(I mean, flying a plane to release your XXX movie in the city due to this that it was banned ? Using remote control toy cars to explode some gang cars ? )
-The gameplay itself is also parody.(Cars get explode when they get upside down on ground, Ambulances can revive npcs that are dead, Police will free you from jail after killing 1000 cops , police won't follow you when you use paint'n spray etc)
-In GTA 3 a game which made GTA popular the main character was a mute guy that never spoke even once.

So your argument is that because GTA is comedic in tone the series has never had "masterpiece stories" and therefore the stories did not contribute to its success?

Games like Just Cause failed to get GTA level popularity because they never had the variety of GTA.

Just Cause has way more core gameplay variety (you can grapnel onto things, use your parachute, play with physics, ride outside vehicles etc.) compared to the more "realistic" GTA: you're actually arguing my point which is that GTA is paced better so it appears to have more variety (with each mission focusing on something a little different) but that comes down to... STORY. Just Cause also has a more boring setting which makes it more boring to explore and less memorable characters with less imaginative missions; again... STORY.

Unless you're arguing that Just Cause would have sold better if it had more yoga minigames.

 

[Grinders]

I decided to watch recap movie in main menu of Shenmue 3. Funny, there is no mention of Sunming Zhao, treasure or true identity of Lan Di in it. Also recap movie end with this line: "What ancient mystery remains locked away by mirrors? And what of the man Lan Di, whose hands are stained with the blood of Ryo's father?" But we already know answers to this questions!
So I wonder why Yu Suzuki approved such a strange recap movie? Did he forget that he already answered this questions in Shenmue 2?

 

[shredingskin]

GTA main story might not be a golden standard, but the satirical writing on the games is top notch.

 

[Blaire]

Besides GTA stories may vary wildly from game to game. Can't really say that GTA IV is all laughter, especially near the end...

 

[gladias9]

Despite the inclusion of New Game + mode I found it really hard to replay Shenmue III and gave up about twenty minutes in... I can't be bothered fighting the generic muscle guys again, there were no cutscenes I was looking forward to...

I am in quite the same situation, I simply cannot force myself to re-complete Bailu Village. I feel like the game is VERY solid in terms of mechanics but it's that I know that there isn't much satisfying story content waiting. Not that there's NO story content waiting but none of it gets me excited.

 

[shredingskin]

You can start from niaowu though, it's what I did.

 

[24Nathan]

I decided to watch recap movie in main menu of Shenmue 3. Funny, there is no mention of Sunming Zhao, treasure or true identity of Lan Di in it. Also recap movie end with this line: "What ancient mystery remains locked away by mirrors? And what of the man Lan Di, whose hands are stained with the blood of Ryo's father?" But we already know answers to this questions!
So I wonder why Yu Suzuki approved such a strange recap movie? Did he forget that he already answered this questions in Shenmue 2?

Yeah, not a fan of the recap movie. And they're not using the rerelease assets, maybe too proud? I don't know.

I feel like the digest movie from Shenmue II was amazing, and they should've just used it, and added in a Shenmue II digest on the same vein to follow.

 

[deathofaninja]

He's resourceful with the 12 million. Microsoft gives devs blockbuster movie budget and they still deliver unplayable game.

 

[Wielbladek]

Seriously, who cared about all those things highlighted here 20 years ago ? It was "Your princess is in another castle remix" type of story from the very beginning, only covered with "Shenmue Magic" which can be summed up as "putting little details up front". Nothing more. And it is the same is in Shenmue 3. You have to mentally time travel to your youth to get over with both outdated gameplay and lack of depth in the story to fully enjoy it. And there is nothing wrong with that, but it is also a skill within itself...

 

[24Nathan]

So Shenmue is Super Mario Bros. 3, except only slightly different?

I don't understand how anyone can call gameplay "outdated". I enjoyed almost everything in III. Am I an outdated human?

 

[Wielbladek]

It has repeating scheme Revelation->Paywall/Time constrait->battle->"Your princess is in another castle".

And yes, for some the control scheme where you cannot turn character 180 in a split second may be considered outdated. Most notably I heard this argument regarding how classic Tomb Raider is unplayable because of this (even if it is not technically true).
I personally like games with controls to get used to, but this approach is extremely unpopular among modern games comparing to be pretty standard until early 2000s.

 

[24Nathan]

Um, push the left thumbstick back? Works every time for me, I've been using it in Shenmue III.

I mean, we can oversimplify almost anything to be a derivative of almost anything else if we want to. If Shenmue is just like Mario, then how it will end? How will all of its loose ends be resolved?

What is one media of any kind that is not derivative of another? And why is that bad?

I'm not saying Shenmue is this original masterpiece which is unlike anything ever seen before, but it is so much more than a Mario story.

 

[Shenmue]

The game for me is almost a concept game. The core systems are there for a Shenmue 4. And its clear they ran out of time/money hence why things feel a little disjointed so had to run with what's a core game rather than the fleshed out stuff we are used to. That said it had all the Shenmue charm I'd expect. You can easily lose yourself in the game despite some flaws and that's impressive. I do worry that unless Shenmue 4 corrects these issues then that could be the end of the road.

I think I wrote this somewhere else, but for me this stems from poor budget management and/or staff inexperience. You can kinda see the "Dreamcast 2" version of Shen 3 if you squint your eyes figuratively speaking, because while you can see what Yu attempted to do everything is very anemic and only exacerbated the bad stuff about it. There is a million ways Yu could have went for the game, but the path he took is hardly ideal.

I appreciate that people actually enjoyed the game here but for me there are lots of objective issues. The game is lacking in a way that makes every little mechanical thing and throwback to the previous games feel hollow and soulless once you really start diving deep into it. You guys have no idea how sad Shenmue 3 makes me, and I'm almost certain that Shenmue 4 will not happen or will be made in a way that makes the whole ordeal not worth it.

 

[orient]

I think I wrote this somewhere else, but for me this stems from poor budget management and/or staff inexperience. You can kinda see the "Dreamcast 2" version of Shen 3 if you squint your eyes figuratively speaking, because while you can see what Yu attempted to do everything is very anemic and only exacerbated the bad stuff about it. There is a million ways Yu could have went for the game, but the path he took is hardly ideal.

Just because you didn't like the direction they took doesn't mean the project was poorly managed, though. They made a clear and obvious choice to focus on fleshing out the world -- big, detailed environments, lots of side activities, player freedom in how to approach the game -- over story stuff.

Just read the interviews over the past few years -- Yu was excited about the "game" aspects of III -- creating an atmosphere, an economy, giving the player choice because, according to him, that's what makes Shenmue unique. They didn't end up with a barebones story by accident. They had to make decisions on what to cut and what to focus on because the budget was limited, and when the budget's limited, everything you include is a trade-off. They chose a big, deep world to explore and live in, over a story game with a narrow focus and shallow world.

I 100% understand being disappointed by that. A part of me is too. I really enjoyed III but I wish they could've spent more time on developing the characters.

But to say they arrived at a barebones story due to inexperience and poor management is merely pointing the blame because you're sad and disappointed. Cutscenes are extremely expensive and time-consuming. Dialogue isn't free. Every line takes time to write, implement into the game, translate, record voice overs in two different languages (I'm not defending the quality of the writing -- it's never been great). Budget has little to do with the quality of writing, that's true, but it has a lot to do with everything else -- the story's structure, the lack of character interactions etc. etc.

 

[hyo_razuki]

Just because you didn't like the direction they took doesn't mean the project was poorly managed, though. They made a clear and obvious choice to focus on fleshing out the world -- big, detailed environments, lots of side activities, player freedom in how to approach the game -- over story stuff.

Just read the interviews over the past few years -- Yu was excited about the "game" aspects of III -- creating an atmosphere, an economy, giving the player choice because, according to him, that's what makes Shenmue unique. They didn't end up with a barebones story by accident. They had to make decisions on what to cut and what to focus on because the budget was limited, and when the budget's limited, everything you include is a trade-off. They chose a big, deep world to explore and live in, over a story game with a narrow focus and shallow world.

I 100% understand being disappointed by that. A part of me is too. I really enjoyed III but I wish they could've spent more time on developing the characters.

But to say they arrived at a barebones story due to inexperience and poor management is merely pointing the blame because you're sad and disappointed. Cutscenes are extremely expensive and time-consuming. Dialogue isn't free. Every line takes time to write, implement into the game, translate, record voice overs in two different languages (I'm not defending the quality of the writing -- it's never been great). Budget has little to do with the quality of writing, that's true, but it has a lot to do with everything else -- the story's structure, the lack of character interactions etc. etc.

Yes, Yu may have been excited about the "game" elements but he also promised a whole bunch of plot points which are not in the game. See the "All the Facts and Information" thread on here.

 

[GhostTrick]

So Shenmue is Super Mario Bros. 3, except only slightly different?

I don't understand how anyone can call gameplay "outdated". I enjoyed almost everything in III. Am I an outdated human?

The gameplay isn't outdated. It's heavy. People are mixing up oudated and heavy. Shenmue isn't about playing a super hero but an average person. Ryo isn't supposed to act like crazy in town and such. So his movements are supposed to be natural. When people turns back, they dont do a split second 180 turn. They make a natural movement.

 

[orient]

Yes, Yu may have been excited about the "game" elements but he also promised a whole bunch of plot points which are not in the game. See the "All the Facts and Information" thread on here.

"Promised" is a strange way of looking at it.