Did Shenmue 3 hurt the series?

[Spaghetti]

It's amazing to still see people furious over the super eye patch wolf guy's review. Who cares, let it go.

Nah. Completely justified to think a "fan" with a huge following who didn't enjoy the third game is a prick for deciding to very publicly turn a gun on the series. Literally the attitude of a child to want to destroy something for others if you didn't enjoy it yourself.

And if you genuinely have little faith in Shenmue IV, I would simply suggest you don't play it if it ever comes out. I don't know why people insist on subjecting themselves to things they feel they won't enjoy. It's masochistic.

 

[bcdcdude]

Given the state of the world then and now, such statements as "Game X destroyed my life" seems offensive more than ever. Not looking to reopen old wounds, but spending over an hour saying why you hate something is an hour you could spend doing something more positive.

 

[Thomasina]

Nah. Completely justified to think a "fan" with a huge following who didn't enjoy the third game is a prick for deciding to very publicly turn a gun on the series. Literally the attitude of a child to want to destroy something for others if you didn't enjoy it yourself.

No guns were used. He reviewed a video game that is available for public purchase and consumption, lol. I've watched and read plenty of bad reviews for hundreds of games. None of them made me angry for years; none of them made me feel victimized; and none of them ruined any series, developer or publisher; none of them made me hate anyone.

And if you genuinely have little faith in Shenmue IV, I would simply suggest you don't play it if it ever comes out. I don't know why people insist on subjecting themselves to things they feel they won't enjoy. It's masochistic.

If it looks terrible then that's what I'll do and I said as much in the previous post. Stop taking criticism of shenmue as a personal attack.

Given the state of the world then and now, such statements as "Game X destroyed my life" seems offensive more than ever. Not looking to reopen old wounds, but spending over an hour saying why you hate something is an hour you could spend doing something more positive.

Anyone is free to review products at any time regardless of world happenings.

If you guys could step outside of this bubble you'd see how ridiculous these comments are. The success and failures of Shenmue 3 rely strictly on Ys Net and everyone who was involved in the development, publishing, managing, marketing of the end product. Sucks but true.

 

[You Arcade Clerk]

Thomasina said:
People who didn't like the game have nothing to do with Shenmue 4.
Shenmue 3 and its quality are what negatively affected Shenmue 4.

Random gamers not liking the game probably won't have an impact on its chances, but some of the negative reviews and media coverage definitely had an impact on the decision making of potential newcomers, who ended up skipping the game.

This means that people who didn't like the game and were vocal about it most definitely affected Shenmue IV's chances, at least to some extent.

Because rather than thinking for themselves, people tend to use review scores on aggregator sites to decide the quality of a product and whether or not they'll give something a chance. And nowadays everything that averages to below 75% is considered mediocre, which is absolutely ludicrous.

That's why I'm not a fan of people putting too much stock into reviews and scores. More often than not it comes across as a popularity contest, when that's the last thing it should be: Quality is not objective fact. It's very personal and thus different for everybody.

Someone's 4 might be your 10 and vice versa.

With all of that said I don't see how anyone who's put any thought into this can come to the conclusion that Shenmue III hurt the series.

Without Shenmue III, this conversation wouldn't even be happening and we'd still wonder about a potential revival of the franchise. Hell, most of us wouldn't even be here right now.

Since the Shenmue III kickstarter, we've see Shenmue I & II come to modern systems, a ton of merchandise being released and we're watching a weekly Shenmue anime. None of this would have happened without Shenmue III, regardless of what anyone may think about its quality. That should be overwhelmingly clear at this point.

Thomasina said:
It's amazing to still see people furious over the super eye patch wolf guy's review. Who cares, let it go.

It's because 'influencers' who use hyperbole clickbait negativity to feed their bottom line - and in the process possibly hurt an already struggling franchise - are amongst the lowest forms of drifters. They live in echo chambers where their hot takes aren't challenged and are in dire need of some well deserved pushback. Obviously, the fans care. And this is a fan forum. I think it's amazing that you're amazed by this. And slightly ironic, since you're the one obviously 'still furious' about Shenmue III.

Thomasina said:
And as for my own opinion, I have little faith in Shenmue 4. I didn't like S3 and I have no idea what S4 would offer or what it would be. S3 shattered my perception of what the Shenmue series has to offer moving forward. If S4 turned out to be like S3, I would be done. I think S4 would have to rebuild the series and I think that's a bad place to be.

If that's how you feel, unfortunate as it may be, that's how you feel.

There's nothing wrong with (strongly) disliking something, but when people go out of their way to continuously shove their negativity down the throats of an otherwise mostly positive community, it gets a bit tiresome and makes you look sad.

How about somewhat more fair and constructive criticism? It makes people take you more seriously.

 

[Thomasina]

but some of the negative reviews and media coverage definitely had an impact on the decision making of potential newcomers, who ended up skipping the game.

This means that people who didn't like the game and were vocal about it most definitely affected Shenmue IV's chances, at least to some extent.

Because rather than thinking for themselves, people tend to use review scores on aggregator sites to decide the quality of a product and whether or not they'll give something a chance. And nowadays everything that averages to below 75% is considered mediocre, which is absolutely ludicrous.

That's why I'm not a fan of people putting too much stock into reviews and scores. More often than not it comes across as a popularity contest, when that's the last thing it should be: Quality is not objective fact. It's very personal and thus different for everybody.

I don't think anyone has any obligation to withhold their opinions of a consumer product out of fear of causing damage to that product or its fans. Ultimately what's most important is that the product is good. If a game looks good or promising, it will be supported. Sure, it's unfortunate S3 got bombed in reviews but I think most are fair.

I'm tired of this conspiracy that youtubers and the like are out to get shenmue 3. I don't think it's true at all. What's most likely true is that people reviewed a game that is not particularly appealing to most people, or of high quality. There's definitely some bizarre conspiracy theories floating around on this board and it's sad to see them supported by "the community".

On another note, independent developers and games are doing absolutely phenomenal stuff in the industry. My hope is that Yu has the humility to look to these games, teams and practices, and learn from them. I think the industry is at a point where a lot can be done for far less money than what used to be the standard. I think Suzuki has had a lifetime of working within a major publisher and doing what he wants, but for S4 to succeed imo, he needs to restructure how Ys Net operates and learn new techniques. I would love to hear Suzuki acknowledge some smaller games and/or teams, and possibly communicate with them and learn some new stuff.

I hope S4 gets made. I hope it's good. I hope a lot of the fat is cut from S3 and the focus is much tighter. I hope all the best for S4, but S3 ain't it.

 

[spud1897]

On another note, independent developers and games are doing absolutely phenomenal stuff in the industry. My hope is that Yu has the humility to look to these games, teams and practices, and learn from them. I think the industry is at a point where a lot can be done for far less money than what used to be the standard. I think Suzuki has had a lifetime of working within a major publisher and doing what he wants, but for S4 to succeed imo, he needs to restructure how Ys Net operates and learn new techniques. I would love to hear Suzuki acknowledge some smaller games and/or teams, and possibly communicate with them and learn some new stuff.

I don't know if you caught his end of year interviews from 2022 but he's been playing quite a few video games.

Little Nightmares was the one he cited.

 

[spud1897]

I'd also add that while there were some certain misteps in terms of PR from the Shenmue 3 team, I never felt that the media would ever have given Shenmue 3 a fair crack even without the issues in the game we all know about.

The Sony funding Shenmue 3 stuff which the media ran with, yet had no evidence and when corrected didn't issue retractions. Acting like the 2017 teaser trailer was the final product. The media outright lying and saying PayPal backers would get no rewards like the kickstarter backers.

Sure Shenmue 3 has its faults, which we all know about. But at the same time I'm of the view that there were certain sections of the media who really didn't like Shenmue and made things difficult before the release and that's a tone that's hard to fight against.

Again some this was avoidable but again outright lies were published as facts...

Maybe we will do a podcast about it one day

 

[bcdcdude]

If you guys could step outside of this bubble you'd see how ridiculous these comments are. The success and failures of Shenmue 3 rely strictly on Ys Net and everyone who was involved in the development, publishing, managing, marketing of the end product. Sucks but true.

I wouldn't normally say such things, but your comments are frequently miserable to the point that I feel some counterpoints need to be made. It's a shame really as sometimes you do say some interesting things and come up with good points, but my God, cheer up man. Sometimes I see your avatar and think "Oh God, what's he going to moan about now".

As for the Eyepatch thing, if there's two things I hate, it's hyperbole and insincerity. He could've easily done a video that highlighted the issues and made a fairly decent video, but he went so far off the deep end that even if I agreed with him, he's made himself look to be a pathetic man-child. Because it's less about the game and more about him. But we've gone round this too many times and along with your negativity, i'm just going to have to agree to disagree. Life's too short.

And yes, he's free to say his comments as much as we're free to say he's a bloody idiot and an attention whore.

Sucks, but true.

 

[Thomasina]

I don't know if you caught his end of year interviews from 2022 but he's been playing quite a few video games.

Little Nightmares was the one he cited.

I did catch that part and it was hopeful. That's just seeing game mechanics and ideas tho, not talking to actual developers.

But at the same time I'm of the view that there were certain sections of the media who really didn't like Shenmue and made things difficult before the release and that's a tone that's hard to fight against.

Meh, the radio silence still sucks to this day. TO THIS DAY!! (Deontay Wilder).

Misinformation can easily be countered with lots of accurate information. Yu Suzuki chooses silence and mystery. It's painful every step of the way. I mean, didn't the most recent interview once again say "I would love the opportunity to work on S4 if I got the chance"? How many times have we heard that?

We have a fanbase dying for information and confirmation and we never get it.

 

[Thomasina]

As for the Eyepatch thing, if there's two things I hate, it's hyperbole and insincerity. He could've easily done a video that highlighted the issues and made a fairly decent video, but he went so far off the deep end that even if I agreed with him, he's made himself look to be a pathetic man-child. Because it's less about the game and more about him.

If he thought the game sucked, why would he make a video to highlight "the good parts"? This is again you making HIS review appease YOUR feelings.

And it should be about him. He's the player and it's his experience. If you write a review not of your own experience, but what you think others may experience or want to experience, then that is an insincere review.

 

[Sonoshee]

I mean, didn't the most recent interview once again say "I would love the opportunity to work on S4 if I got the chance"? How many times have we heard that?

We have a fanbase dying for information and confirmation and we never get it.

I think we can all relate to that kind of frustration. But be reasonable, he can't just announce anything about S4 straight off the bat like that. Usually if there's nothing at that moment that he really can announce, or - for instants - he has partners helping to fund S4 that won't want it announcing until a certain time (ie. after the anime has finished).

 

[Rydeen]

Meh, the radio silence still sucks to this day. TO THIS DAY!! (Deontay Wilder).

Misinformation can easily be countered with lots of accurate information. Yu Suzuki chooses silence and mystery. It's painful every step of the way. I mean, didn't the most recent interview once again say "I would love the opportunity to work on S4 if I got the chance"? How many times have we heard that?

We have a fanbase dying for information and confirmation and we never get it.

That's ridiculous to assert that a game developer would be responsible for correcting errors in media coverage. Did you think he should have been spending all of his time on media relations instead of making a video game? Besides, there was tons of accurate information leveled at the shitty reporting around that time, and it was always buried or ignored.

This level of cognitive dissonance is truly sad. I don't necessarily mean to single you out with this rant, but you just represent the issue too vibrantly. The biggest issue with video games today is that the middle market has been completely eroded by "Gamers" who have no idea what goes into projects and actually making things, while simultaneously being ignorant of the power of criticisms on the internet. You are essentially taking part in a focus group whenever you post opinions in certain locations of the internet. Video games and movies are trending in the same direction because the costs to meet certain market expectations vs the risks of failing to meet them are too severe for anything that doesn't have potential to gross billions. The industry has foisted the responsibility of managing the risk of smaller projects onto the indie scene, as a result. (Also, Shenmue III was for all intents and purposes an indie game; It kind of seems like you've misunderstood that, at some point--.)

I'm almost numb to gamers on the internet saying, 'I complain about X, Y, and Z because I love the franchise, and this will make it better,' whenever they're inconvenienced by not having a tailored experience, but it's a false statement. This could be true for something like Madden, where the property is too big to fail, but anything not AAA? You better believe it's heavily at risk of not getting more chances if a lot of the response is tepid to severely negative, and sales aren't high. Case in point, Balan Wonderworld--the most inoffensive game I could possibly think of: Yuji Naka is now relegated to salvaging his career working alone on smartphone games. So if you actually don't care whether something continues on, then sure, lambast the latest game in your 'favorite' series for everything you don't like about it, wherever you can. What's infuriating to me is that somehow a number of Shenmue fans can't seem to understand that Shenmue III was not backed by EA, and trying to publicly pants it all the time makes the prospect of securing funding for another Shenmue game about 1000 times more difficult. Assuming you're not just completely self-centered, though, other people do actually want to see the series continue, that's why they're saying to kindly pound sand.

I feel like it shouldn't even need to be said, but assuming Suzuki has already secured funding for Shenmue IV, the likelihood of it being announced prior to a state of near completion is slim to none. Being able to start a project is absolutely no guarantee of being able to finish it. Unless whatever backing a game has is fully committed to it, 100%, this is a reason why projects aren't announced early. Suzuki isn't the one to be making these announcements to begin with (I don't really understand what you think his job actually is--).

I don't think anyone has any obligation to withhold their opinions of a consumer product out of fear of causing damage to that product or its fans. Ultimately what's most important is that the product is good. If a game looks good or promising, it will be supported. Sure, it's unfortunate S3 got bombed in reviews but I think most are fair.

Sadly not true. Quality of a product is not as important as the average person assumes; Marketing generally determines the fate of a product. The best marketing doesn't even require a good product, but even the best products will be ignored without adequate marketing. Good marketing is also extremely expensive, because marketing knows how essential they are. I don't enjoy saying these things; As an engineer, I live in near constant anguish over this.

 

[spud1897]

I did catch that part and it was hopeful. That's just seeing game mechanics and ideas tho, not talking to actual developers.



Meh, the radio silence still sucks to this day. TO THIS DAY!! (Deontay Wilder).

Misinformation can easily be countered with lots of accurate information. Yu Suzuki chooses silence and mystery. It's painful every step of the way. I mean, didn't the most recent interview once again say "I would love the opportunity to work on S4 if I got the chance"? How many times have we heard that?

We have a fanbase dying for information and confirmation and we never get it.

The thing is they did issue clarification on those issues and yet the media still ran with it. So how is that the fault of YSNET? I completely accept that the initial PR wasn't great but that doesn't excuse the outright lies that some people told.

Secondly we actually have no divine right to any Shenmue news. Believe me when I say it is infuriating because I'd love to know stuff before it breaks so I can prepare behind the scenes with the site.

But the fact remains YS is under zero obligation to tell us anything about Shenmue 4, if indeed its been greenlit, until he's ready to. If there's no news then he's being quite clever in saying I'm still looking for the opportunity to do it. It means he's not given up. Yes it's repeating the same point but if he said "I'd love to do it but I'm out of options" I think that would have quite a resounding impact on the community.

 

[Thomasina]

Secondly we actually have no divine right to any Shenmue news. Believe me when I say it is infuriating because I'd love to know stuff before it breaks so I can prepare behind the scenes with the site.

But the fact remains YS is under zero obligation to tell us anything about Shenmue 4, if indeed its been greenlit, until he's ready to. If there's no news then he's being quite clever in saying I'm still looking for the opportunity to do it. It means he's not given up. Yes it's repeating the same point but if he said "I'd love to do it but I'm out of options" I think that would have quite a resounding impact on the community.

I realize they have no obligation. That's up to him. I'm just saying it sucks that he still operates like he's working at Sega and everything is top secret. After all this time Suzuki has opted to not be open and I think it's unfortunate.

Yes it's repeating the same point but if he said "I'd love to do it but I'm out of options" I think that would have quite a resounding impact on the community.

I'd rather have the truth than be mislead for another decade. I would think he has limited contacts in Japan so perhaps opening up about his struggles and roadblocks would open up more connections and opportunities. I don't know... I only know that the silence and uncertainty is painful and concerning.

 

[bill5499]

I'd rather have the truth than be mislead for another decade. I would think he has limited contacts in Japan so perhaps opening up about his struggles and roadblocks would open up more connections and opportunities. I don't know... I only know that the silence and uncertainty is painful and concerning.

Nobody is misleading anyone. He said he wants to do IV and he's looking at opportunities and options. That's it. Nothing is decided yet. Kind of truth are you looking for here anyway. Nothing is even announced yet and you're already out here moaning about being misled. There's literally nothing. He didn't say anything else cause there's nothing else to say.

 

[bcdcdude]

If he thought the game sucked, why would he make a video to highlight "the good parts"? This is again you making HIS review appease YOUR feelings.

And it should be about him. He's the player and it's his experience. If you write a review not of your own experience, but what you think others may experience or want to experience, then that is an insincere review.

Simple. It's not about WHAT he says, but HOW he says it. There's one bit that I thought was beyond pathetic and it was about gambling to gain money to get the wine jar. He could've said that it was a a grindy part of the game (which it was, not going to deny that), but he did this thing where the put Suzuki's face in the bowl, changed it to red to indicate some form of hell and squealed his voice as if to say NODONTDOTHISTOMEWHYAREYOUDOINGTHISIAMGOINGTODIE.

He can fuck off with that kind of hyperbole. Any respect I had for him (and I enjoyed a couple of his videos up to that point) went down the toilet at that point.

 

[You Arcade Clerk]

If he thought the game sucked, why would he make a video to highlight "the good parts"? This is again you making HIS review appease YOUR feelings.

And it should be about him. He's the player and it's his experience. If you write a review not of your own experience, but what you think others may experience or want to experience, then that is an insincere review.

I guess leading with i HaVe WaStEd My LiFe is being truly sincere, then.

It's the internet equivalent of this:

Many outlets are looking for the next easy punching bag they can cash in on and that's what happened here as well. Negativity driving more traffic is well-documented and supported by statistics, hardly a 'conspiracy theory'.

But it seems it's not really possible to argue 'in good faith' with you so I won't waste my time in the type of thread that came from a bad place to begin with.

 

[Down by Law]

Nobody has an issue with a critical video but it's all about the tone. The spew video has an obnoxious title, is downright offensive in parts and factually wrong in others. It's a shite video made for clicks which did its job fabulously. It has like 2 million views, that's 2 million people potentially put off our favourite series. Of course, that isn't really true as not everyone who watches would have had any intention to play, but the point is people are more likely to try something that isn't titled 'a waste of life'

 

[~ ひかり ~]

Nobody has an issue with a critical video but it's all about the tone. The spew video has an obnoxious title, is downright offensive in parts and factually wrong in others. It's a shite video made for clicks which did its job fabulously. It has like 2 million views, that's 2 million people potentially put off our favourite series. Of course, that isn't really true as not everyone who watches would have had any intention to play, but the point is people are more likely to try something that isn't titled 'a waste of life'

I agree 100% with you.

I love Shenmue III but let's imagine for a moment that i dislike the game, i would never do my video this way, that video even have misinformation about the game.

Some people see this clickbait title and will never want to try and experience the game for themselves, some people care so much about the opinions of a YouTuber that will skip the game because of these things, this way these people will never experience the game for themselves, and some of these people will say bad things about Shenmue but never played the games, some people just copy what a YouTuber said, we are in the internet so this things happen, of course this type of atittude do damage to the franchise.

I remember now the video that Sergeynest did, the title of the video is... Shenmue 4 - How to improve, Modernize and Keep the Essence Alive. In this beautiful video Sergeynest talked about some things that it was not good in the third game but how can Yu Suzuki and the team improve this things for Shenmue IV, Sergeynest did this video in a calm and respectful way, this is the difference.

​

Let's imagine i dislike Shenmue III, i would make a video saying things i don't like, saying how i think the team can improve for Shenmue IV but this in a respectful way. I have a Shenmue channel on YouTube, i even have plans to make a video about some things i think could have been better in Shenmue III, and how the team can improve this things for Shenmue IV.

All of this in a calm and respectful way, you know why? because i respect Yu Suzuki and the team, respect is super important to me.

The Shenmue franchise is a struggling franchise and i care so much for this beautiful franchise, 18 years to release Shenmue III and now we are getting an anime, but after the anime we don't even know if the franchise will really continue.

I love Shenmue III but some things could have been better, like more story and development for the side characters in Niaowu, but when i say this things i say in a calm and respectful way and i care about this wonderful franchise.

If one day the franchise die at least i know that i did it my best to support this beautiful franchise to continue.

 

[Thomasina]

but he did this thing where the put Suzuki's face in the bowl, changed it to red to indicate some form of hell and squealed his voice as if to say NODONTDOTHISTOMEWHYAREYOUDOINGTHISIAMGOINGTODIE.

I guess leading with i HaVe WaStEd My LiFe is being truly sincere, then.

It's probably been two years since I've watched that video but both of those instances are HUMOR.

Seriously, let it go.

That's you on this subject, lol. Everyone is bad and evil. Only you are good.