Did Shenmue 3 hurt the series?

[Sergeynest]

That's what I mean, even if the goal was realism (which I disagree with), he sacrificed fun to get there. Unless you want to argue why the grinding is good or enjoyable, but so far I haven't heard anyone do that.


This is what frustrates me about S3 more than the actual content; it's the "what was Suzuki thinking?" of it all. He had to know the reaction this was going to get-- not even every Shenmue fan is on board, never mind the wider gaming audience.

That's true; but if he hadn't done these things he and the game would eventually also be critisized by not having evolved the series in any way shape or form.
Like I have said in another post its win/lose situation both ways.
I'm not trying to defend the game nor Yu Suzuki nor do I consider the game flawless; for me the grinding never felt annoying or intrusive neither the stamina system or the training mini games; it all to me felt part of the experience and a part of being in Ryo's shoes.

I'm currently playing Ghost of Tsushima and I'm also enjoying it for what it is.
I personally consider it the game of this generation and many people might disagree but for me it is because of my personal taste for loving japanese culture; samurai movies, etc... just like I love Shenmue and martial arts movies.
I could see someone presenting the same critics on Ghost of Tsushima because it is also a game where you do a lot of grinding if you want to obtain every single item and also if you want to level up you're skills.
What Ghost of Tsushima does better than Shenmue in this regard is that it gives you a much better ilusion of freely choosing wich one of its elements you want to grind.
There are even in fact gameplay elements of Ghost of Tsushima that would fit very well in the Shenmue series so much so that I'm even considering macking a video about it.
I think each one of us gave of valid points in regards to the game from their personal point of view and personal taste and I can definitely respect that. Lets hope that Yu Suzuki and his team can make a more cohesive experience for everyone next time around in Shenmue IV.[/QUOTE]

 

[iknifaugood]

Ryo is not amused by the hoops he has to jump through, either. It ties the player more intrinsically to Ryo’s adventure. All Shenmue games have instances of “forced grinding.” In Shenmue II it actually does far less to blend itself into the gameplay, though.

@tomboz illustrated perfectly why carrying books in S2 is justified by the narrative in a way that grinding for money in S3 isn't. There are two issues to distinguish: on the one hand we have the paywalls, where the narrative just stops until Ryo earns enough money and on the other we have the overall leveling mechanics and how they're tied to the economy. The paywalls are justified by the narrative because Ryo is being asked to buy something expensive, but why is he being asked to do this, narratively speaking? You can argue in the first instance it's to characterize Sun as a crazy old master who's testing the hero's patience a la Yoda in Empire Strikes Back (I know how much you love the Star Wars references ), even though I would argue that by that point his character is well established and it doesn't make the act of grinding for money narratively meaningful (contrast this with the menial tasks in Kill Bill and Karate Kid, where there is a method to the master's madness, or even in S2 where Xiuying uses it as a sort of carrot and stick). But what of the second instance? What is the narrative justification for the martial arts book being so absurdly expensive in Niaowu?

It can be both a means to extend game time, and tie the narrative to gameplay, though. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

I don't think this is true of the overall "leveling" system/economy more broadly. There is no narrative justification for Ryo having to earn so much money and collect so many tchotchkes unless the narrative is as much about Ryo valuing a hard day's work and obsessively collecting things as it is about him training his martial arts skills. The fact that you can only train new moves otherwise sparring is actually useless goes completely against the notion that S3 is "about Ryo training". If anything it can be said that S3 is about the absurd lengths Ryo is willing to go to do whatever people tell him with no regard for how much time he's wasting or how much danger it puts others in. Remember, Shenhua's father has been kidnapped by the CYM this entire time--imagine if in S1, when Nozomi gets captured, Ryo had to grind enough money to buy his own motorcycle...

 

[Sergeynest]

Perhaps it was down to grinding in video games being more common 20 years ago or the fact that I had a lot more free time to do it, but obtaining the required cash in Shenmue 2 didn’t feel like anywhere near as much of a chore. It could also have been the extra steps involved in gambling, the repetitive nature of some of the alternatives in Shenmue 3 (I know that carrying crates was the worst for this, but I never had to resort to this as gambling was quick and easy) or the larger percentage of the game’s storyline that it constituted.

Whatever the reason, the paywalls in Shenmue 3 directly lead to me enjoying the game less and whether or not they added anything to the narrative (I don’t believe they did), I firmly believe that the player’s enjoyment should be taken into account when making these kind of design choices.

If they didn’t think that the player would enjoy it they should have found another way to make their point and if they thought that the player would, I’d be genuinely worried about how a fourth game might turn out.


Why exactly does the narrative need to be tied to the gameplay in this instance? If Suzuki really wants Ryo to have to work so that he can buy a martial arts book in order to demonstrate some kind of point, can we not be shown this in a montage (maybe Ryo chopping wood throughout the course of a few hours) instead?

I understand that immersion has always been one of the key foundations of the series, but in the interest of creating an enjoyable experience, can the player not be spared from some of the more mundane tasks? There’s already a ‘wait’ function and we don’t have to sit and observe Ryo sleep for 11 hours, nor do we have to go to the restroom 2 or 3 times a day.

Failing that, at least lower the amounts required or increase the maximum gambling odds so that these sections don’t make up nearly 20% of the game’s ‘story’.


Have you read many of the reviews? One of the more common remarks (both from positive and negative reviews) is that Shenmue 3 feels and plays just like the games that preceded it.

The only way the game would have garnered praise in this regard would have been if they’d included something new which actually make the game better.

I can definitely tell that you're experience with Shenmue 3 was completly diferent than mine.
I really enjoyed the mundane tasks that Ryo had to performe in order to progress both in terms of the story and on a daily bases.
I loved the routine of waking up in the morning at Shenhua's house; talk a bit with her; grab the fruits and walk to the Dojo while picking up herbs on the way while enjoying the scenery.
At the Dojo I would train and spar to increase my kung fu level and after that I would walk up to uncle Tao's Get Shop to chop some wood to earn money and buy some food. After that I would go to the village and I would try to progress the story or engage in other activities like Fishing.
I would also spar with the locals and sometimes I would stop by the temple to train and read some of the Emmas.
Other times I would visit grand master feng to train with him by the Shenmue tree. "Loved that"
At the end of the day I would go to the arcade or I'de gamble a bit at Joy Park before making my way back to Shenhua's house and chat with her before going to bed; just to repeat that routine the next day.
I loved this aspect of the game and it was something that to my eyes felt like an evolution over the first two games and at the same time still managed to maintain the same feeling of its predecessors.

In my opinion the changes that where made and the new gameplay mechanics felt to me like the sort of evolution that we would have seen if Shenmue 3 had come out just a few years after the release of Shenmue 2; but if they had made the game like nowdays I believe it wouldn't have felt right and it wouldn't feel like a true continuation of the series.

 

[~ ひかり ~]

I can definitely tell that you're experience with Shenmue 3 was completly diferent than mine.
I really enjoyed the mundane tasks that Ryo had to performe in order to progress both in terms of the story and on a daily bases.
I loved the routine of waking up in the morning at Shenhua's house; talk a bit with her; grab the fruits and walk to the Dojo while picking up herbs on the way while enjoying the scenery.
At the Dojo I would train and spar to increase my kung fu level and after that I would walk up to uncle Tao's Get Shop to chop some wood to earn money and buy some food. After that I would go to the village and I would try to progress the story or engage in other activities like Fishing.
I would also spar with the locals and sometimes I would stop by the temple to train and read some of the Emmas.
Other times I would visit grand master feng to train with him by the Shenmue tree. "Loved that"
At the end of the day I would go to the arcade or I'de gamble a bit at Joy Park before making my way back to Shenhua's house and chat with her before going to bed; just to repeat that routine the next day.
I loved this aspect of the game and it was something that to my eyes felt like an evolution over the first two games and at the same time still managed to maintain the same feeling of its predecessors.

In my opinion the changes that where made and the new gameplay mechanics felt to me like the sort of evolution that we would have seen if Shenmue 3 had come out just a few years after the release of Shenmue 2; but if they had made the game like nowdays I believe it wouldn't have felt right and it wouldn't feel like a true continuation of the series.

Woooow, I had a similar experience with Shenmue III, i felt the same way, for me the grinding never felt annoying or intrusive, i liked trainning and fighting to level up Ryo's kung fu, i liked chopping wood, fishing, picking up herbs, talking with NPCs and much more, and at the end of the day talking with Shenhua, i really felt like i was in Ryo's shoes in a foreign country. Bailu Village is one of my favorite places in the Shenmue world.

I always say that Shenmue III is not perfect but i like the game and i had fun playing, for me is not the worst game of all time like some people say, some complaints are really exaggerating, some people complained that Ryo can eat garlic in the game and that this is not realistic, this is insane, some people complain about every little detail and i really don't agree with that.

Shenmue III really is a divisive game, some people like the game and some people hate the game like it is the worst game of all time, in my opinion 18 years of hype did damage, people expected too much.

The game has flaws? yeah it has flaws but i can see the positive things in the game too, i like the game and i had fun playing, i remember now one special moment of the game for me, when i had to play hide and seek with the kids in Bailu Village, i think it gave me a Shenmue I feeling, the essence of Shenmue is on Shenmue III and i love it.

 

[Rydeen]

Perhaps it was down to grinding in video games being more common 20 years ago or the fact that I had a lot more free time to do it, but obtaining the required cash in Shenmue 2 didn’t feel like anywhere near as much of a chore. It could also have been the extra steps involved in gambling, the repetitive nature of some of the alternatives in Shenmue 3 (I know that carrying crates was the worst for this, but I never had to resort to this as gambling was quick and easy) or the larger percentage of the game’s storyline that it constituted.

Whatever the reason, the paywalls in Shenmue 3 directly lead to me enjoying the game less and whether or not they added anything to the narrative (I don’t believe they did), I firmly believe that the player’s enjoyment should be taken into account when making these kind of design choices.

If they didn’t think that the player would enjoy it they should have found another way to make their point and if they thought that the player would, I’d be genuinely worried about how a fourth game might turn out.


Why exactly does the narrative need to be tied to the gameplay in this instance? If Suzuki really wants Ryo to have to work so that he can buy a martial arts book in order to demonstrate some kind of point, can we not be shown this in a montage (maybe Ryo chopping wood throughout the course of a few hours) instead?

I understand that immersion has always been one of the key foundations of the series, but in the interest of creating an enjoyable experience, can the player not be spared from some of the more mundane tasks? There’s already a ‘wait’ function and we don’t have to sit and observe Ryo sleep for 11 hours, nor do we have to go to the restroom 2 or 3 times a day.

Failing that, at least lower the amounts required or increase the maximum gambling odds so that these sections don’t make up nearly 20% of the game’s ‘story’.

I wasn't totally sure if by "mandatory grinding," people were pointing to the paywalls, or things like catching chickens, airing out books, and forklift-ing, honestly. I still stand by it, either way, but it's good to know more where you're coming from. I would really call Shenmue II more of a grind than III (truly). I feel the paywalls in Shenmue II serve less of a purpose, aside from draining money out of the player-economy. I know, gambling and save scumming, but it's really the same in Shenmue III. Aside from that, just making a point to pick up herbs while wandering around should be plenty to make it past the gates in III, anyway, unless one is just blasting through the story segments without leaving any time to stop and smell the roses.

From a cultural, and martial arts perspective, I barely even considered those paywalls might be off putting at all (putting aside the fact that I already had the cash to begin with). Being extorted for expensive booze for the wino master is practically a trope, and a lot of studies in traditional practices come with tiered payments as one increases in 'level.' It never dawned on me while playing that people would see it as a grind.

I get that people want to have it all, and cram their lives from wall to wall with more than anyone should reasonably attempt to. I understand that people want the media that they consume to accommodate their lifestyles, but I really don't think it's a game's fault that people are just trying to do the most, and maybe unwilling to try approaching things in another way. For sure, games that attempt to buck people's routines are bound to fail to meet a wider reception. I don't think that was really Suzuki's goal with III, though. I think he made a game for fans, and attempted to add a few quality of life adjustments to battles and travel, in the hopes that it would gain some traction with wider audiences. I think where Suzuki's statements on making IV more accessible come from is in just how unsuccessful III was at capturing any of that audience outside of the fans.

In terms of mundane tasks, in general, that's not really new to Shenmue III, either. Why is it necessary to wait through (potentially) so many failed chawan signs in II? Why is it necessary to have Ryo actually move the crates at Yokosuka Harbor? Considering that waiting through in-game time in the first game puts the player more into the rhythm the Ryo's daily life, but time warps were implemented in the sequels because without it people actually stopped playing, I think it's pretty safe to assume that paywalls won't make it into the next game. I just don't think they really reflect poorly on the games at all.

 

[~ ひかり ~]

PSB: What is the emotion you hope players feel immediately after finishing Shenmue III? Do you think most players will have a similar reaction to it?

YS: It would be nice if players felt like coming back from a journey. If you hurry through the game, there is a good chance it will just stress you out. Rather, by taking your time, the experience will be one of trying all the different things the game has to offer.

This is part of an interview with Yu Suzuki before Shenmue III release, i remember thinking "I will do exactly this, i will not hurry through the game, i will not stress out and rushing through the game, i will take my time and enjoy" and this is why grinding never felt annoying or intrusive to me, i trained when i want it to, this is why i made my days on the game the way i want it to similar to what Sergeynest did, this is why my experience with the game was for the most part relaxing, and in this point the experience was awesome for me, when i play Shenmue III again i will do the same, playing Shenmue is like a therapy for me, it helps me dealing with my Mother's Death.

 

[Rydeen]

What is the narrative justification for the martial arts book being so absurdly expensive in Niaowu?

Theoretically, it helps to convey to the audience that the technique is a very uniquely significant one, that it's rarely passed on to others, and it also happens to be almost unreasonably convenient that it's a Bajiquan technique (my only real critique with it). I thought it was pretty straight forward, personally.

I don't think this is true of the overall "leveling" system/economy more broadly. There is no narrative justification for Ryo having to earn so much money and collect so many tchotchkes unless the narrative is as much about Ryo valuing a hard day's work and obsessively collecting things as it is about him training his martial arts skills. The fact that you can only train new moves otherwise sparring is actually useless goes completely against the notion that S3 is "about Ryo training".

Those things are compulsory, not mandatory--and I willingly engage in them, yes.

At any rate, in terms of training in actual traditional martial arts (setting aside the fact that Ryo is really more of an MMA practitioner), it's always a process of learning techniques, practicing those techniques, learning new techniques, practice those techniques along with all the previous ones-- and so on to viscosity.

 

[WuyingRen]

I would really call Shenmue II more of a grind than III (truly).

I really don’t see how you can arrive at this conclusion.

In Shenmue 3, the best prize item in terms of exchanging tokens back to Yuan is the smoky crystal, which can be bought for 860 tokens and sold for 85 Yuan. This works out at an exchange rate of roughly 10.12 tokens for every yuan. That means a total of 50,589 tokens are needed in order to purchase the baijiquan scroll (technically it’s a little higher, but let’s actually round it down to 50,000 for convenience).

If we take Flower, Bird, Wind and Moon as our game of choice as it’s present in both S2 and S3 and provides odds of 3/1 which are better than S3’s dice game odds.

The highest stakes game of FBWM in Shenmue 3 is, I believe, 1,500 tokens which provides a gain of 4,500 tokens per successful guess. That means a total of 12 wins without loss are needed to amass enough tokens to afford the scroll.

In Shenmue 2, there’s actually a table with a max stake of $500, so max stakes don’t really factor into things. Assuming the player starts with $20, it would take only 3 wins without loss to amass more than double the $500 required ($20->$80-> $320-> $1280).

If you’re save scumming, that’s 4 times longer in S3 (technically more as you have to go through the hassle of exchanging for and selling prizes). If you’re trying to play legitimately it’s considerably longer as the number of wins required means you’ll encounter considerably more losses as you gamble (which in turn increases the number of wins required).

What about if we don’t gamble?

Ryo gets $10 per crate moved in S2 and can move 6 crates in a 3 hour session (around 6:30 irl). To make $500, Ryo would need to carry 50 creates which would require 9 sessions or 58 minutes irl.

It’s not immediately obvious how much you get paid per crate while forklift driving in Shenmue 3 (it seems to vary depending on the number itself), but a quick glance on YouTube seems to show an average wage of between 280 and 320 yuan. If we go with the upper end, that’s 320 yuan for 7 minutes of work irl, so in order to accrue the 5,000 yuan needed for the scroll, you’d need to do 16 forklift shifts for a total of 112 minutes of work irl.

It’s not quite as big a difference as if one were to go down the gambling route, but that’s nearly twice as long in Shenmue 3.

Even if you’re playing an unpatched version of the game and use the book exploit, the tiresome process of buying, exchanging and selling would take significantly longer than winning a handful of games of FBWM in Shenmue 2.

 

[iknifaugood]

I would really call Shenmue II more of a grind than III (truly). I feel the paywalls in Shenmue II serve less of a purpose, aside from draining money out of the player-economy. I know, gambling and save scumming, but it's really the same in Shenmue III. Aside from that, just making a point to pick up herbs while wandering around should be plenty to make it past the gates in III, anyway, unless one is just blasting through the story segments without leaving any time to stop and smell the roses.

There are two "good" justifications for grinding in games: story and exploration. Some games have grinding in them for story purposes, to help put you in the shoes of the protagonist doing activities you otherwise wouldn't want to do in a game (the beginning of most 3D Zelda games). Other games have grinding for exploration purposes, where the designer wants you to see all aspects of the game so they sprinkle little checklists all around the environment (most MMOs and open world games). S2 is an example of the former, and S3 is an example of the latter. In S2, the story establishes that Ryo has had all of his money stolen from him and he's in a big foreign city where he doesn't know anyone, therefore he needs to fend for himself (which contrasts nicely against Ine-san's allowance from the first game). S3 offers no real story justification for Ryo being strapped for cash, in the original design for Shenmue these games would have shared save files and so Ryo's money would have continued along with his inventory, so what narrative purpose does it serve? He's not alone, he's not in a big city, no one robs him, and he has a place to stay. S3 uses the need for various leveling requirements to force the player to explore the game world and interact with the different systems; but whereas other games use this as an end in themselves (ie: finding a backpack in Spider-Man PS4 instantly gives you XP), S3 makes it a part of a much more laborious process (ie: find herbs, sell herbs for money, use money to buy capsule toys, sell capsule toys for a move, train the move). It's the difference between being directly rewarded for exploring the world (good design) and having that exploration be just one of several hoops to jump through (bad design).

Theoretically, it helps to convey to the audience that the technique is a very uniquely significant one, that it's rarely passed on to others, and it also happens to be almost unreasonably convenient that it's a Bajiquan technique (my only real critique with it). I thought it was pretty straight forward, personally.

But that's not how he learns the move! Ryo talks to Grandmaster Bei, then Hsu, then describes the style to martial arts shopkeepers who tell him that a Bajiquan technique will counter it (but mysteriously can't tell you which one), then you have to find the book, then you realize that a page is missing and have to go all the way back to Grandmaster Bei anyway! So the narrative thrust is "Ryo needs to learn a Bajiquan move but there are no Bajiquan masters around so he has to make due"?

At any rate, in terms of training in actual traditional martial arts (setting aside the fact that Ryo is really more of an MMA practitioner), it's always a process of learning techniques, practicing those techniques, learning new techniques, practice those techniques along with all the previous ones-- and so on to viscosity.

But in S3 it's grind for money, buy something unrelated to martial arts, exchange that for martial arts technique, train technique, repeat. The way it's usually presented in media (Karate Kid, Kill Bill, Rocky etc.), everything is related to training. Even Xiuying forcing Ryo to air out books has the added effect of making you better at the game's QTEs and you learn moves on top of that. Everyone in S3 just keeps telling Ryo he "needs more kung fu" while asking him to perform unrelated tasks without ever explaining the philosophy the way they did in the previous games and it never gels together as a result. I could have forgiven a lot of the grinding in S3 if there was ever a scene like this:

 

[Revan]

Everyone in S3 just keeps telling Ryo he "needs more kung fu" while asking him to perform unrelated tasks without ever explaining the philosophy the way they did in the previous games and it never gels together as a result. I could have forgiven a lot of the grinding in S3 if there was ever a scene like this:

Um...

 

[iknifaugood]

Um...

That's not the same thing at all. He says the reason he made Ryo buy him expensive wine is so that he would "get crafty" (which means nothing), then he tells him to catch chickens (which Ryo rightly agrees is closer to actual training), then he tells him that if he only performs the move once or twice it means nothing (Ryo can't even practice the move outside of cutscenes).

Where is the culmination of everything you've been doing that "clicks" together? Where's the philosophy of what kung fu is and what martial arts should be used for? Where is the tease of how bad ass this master is and how much more Ryo needs to learn? I mean, Shenmue has done this before, just look at learning Iron Palm from S2 or how counter elbow assault is used against Dou Niu.

 

[Revan]

You said you could forgive a lot if there was a scene like that where the instructor explains to the pupil why they got them to do a bunch of unrelated tasks. I just reminded you that there was in fact one scene like that.

But of course, instead of acknowledging that there was perhaps a scene like this that we might have missed, let's try to spin this as me misinterpreting things and cobbling together and explanation for why the scene isn't deep or effective enough. Silly me!

 

[xatruio]

I can confirm, yes, simply finding most (not even ALL for the trophy) herbs will get you through the paywall grinds. Trust me, I've done twice. The old Shenmue fan in me wants to spread out all my dozens of play-thru by not doing everything all at once. Herbs were my favorite addition i subconsciously wanted (love getting the 2 or 3 scenes in Guilin disc 4 of Shenhua grabbing some for medicine), but didn't realize I needed.


Barely ever fished or gambled until recent stream episodes, no side quests, no Rose Garden and didn't even beat the head masters of either dojo (only everyone else in the rankings). Still love the shit out of Shenmue 3 and I've barely played half of the game's offerings!

Shenmue 3 did a lot of fan service, which I love, as well as appreciate the new stuff. The extra budget Deep Silver infused obviously went toward the extras and there are quite a bit. We won't be finding new things in 20 years like the first two, although there's still plenty and I feel like haters rushed through one play and didn't really attempt to experience the full offerings. Sure, everyone's right to an opinion, just as much as I've the right think a review didn't play all of the game--or the haters are full of shit.

 

[iknifaugood]

You said you could forgive a lot if there was a scene like that where the instructor explains to the pupil why they got them to do a bunch of unrelated tasks.

Is that what I said? Because I'm pretty sure that's not what I said.

But of course, instead of acknowledging that there was perhaps a scene like this that we might have missed, let's try to spin this as me misinterpreting things and cobbling together and explanation for why the scene isn't deep or effective enough.

Because I didn't miss that scene, you misinterpreted what I said, the scene you showed isn't deep or effective enough and, most important to what I was saying, it doesn't make the random menial tasks you were doing gel together into a cohesive philosophy. How is forcing Ryo to earn thousands of dollars grinding gambling, or fishing, or collecting herbs related to kung fu or the move he's learning?

 

[Rydeen]

I really don’t see how you can arrive at this conclusion.

In Shenmue 3, the best prize item in terms of exchanging tokens back to Yuan is the smoky crystal, which can be bought for 860 tokens and sold for 85 Yuan. This works out at an exchange rate of roughly 10.12 tokens for every yuan. That means a total of 50,589 tokens are needed in order to purchase the baijiquan scroll (technically it’s a little higher, but let’s actually round it down to 50,000 for convenience).

If we take Flower, Bird, Wind and Moon as our game of choice as it’s present in both S2 and S3 and provides odds of 3/1 which are better than S3’s dice game odds.

The highest stakes game of FBWM in Shenmue 3 is, I believe, 1,500 tokens which provides a gain of 4,500 tokens per successful guess. That means a total of 12 wins without loss are needed to amass enough tokens to afford the scroll.

In Shenmue 2, there’s actually a table with a max stake of $500, so max stakes don’t really factor into things. Assuming the player starts with $20, it would take only 3 wins without loss to amass more than double the $500 required ($20->$80-> $320-> $1280).

If you’re save scumming, that’s 4 times longer in S3 (technically more as you have to go through the hassle of exchanging for and selling prizes). If you’re trying to play legitimately it’s considerably longer as the number of wins required means you’ll encounter considerably more losses as you gamble (which in turn increases the number of wins required).

What about if we don’t gamble?

Ryo gets $10 per crate moved in S2 and can move 6 crates in a 3 hour session (around 6:30 irl). To make $500, Ryo would need to carry 50 creates which would require 9 sessions or 58 minutes irl.

It’s not immediately obvious how much you get paid per crate while forklift driving in Shenmue 3 (it seems to vary depending on the number itself), but a quick glance on YouTube seems to show an average wage of between 280 and 320 yuan. If we go with the upper end, that’s 320 yuan for 7 minutes of work irl, so in order to accrue the 5,000 yuan needed for the scroll, you’d need to do 16 forklift shifts for a total of 112 minutes of work irl.

It’s not quite as big a difference as if one were to go down the gambling route, but that’s nearly twice as long in Shenmue 3.

Even if you’re playing an unpatched version of the game and use the book exploit, the tiresome process of buying, exchanging and selling would take significantly longer than winning a handful of games of FBWM in Shenmue 2.

There are two "good" justifications for grinding in games: story and exploration. Some games have grinding in them for story purposes, to help put you in the shoes of the protagonist doing activities you otherwise wouldn't want to do in a game (the beginning of most 3D Zelda games). Other games have grinding for exploration purposes, where the designer wants you to see all aspects of the game so they sprinkle little checklists all around the environment (most MMOs and open world games). S2 is an example of the former, and S3 is an example of the latter. In S2, the story establishes that Ryo has had all of his money stolen from him and he's in a big foreign city where he doesn't know anyone, therefore he needs to fend for himself (which contrasts nicely against Ine-san's allowance from the first game). S3 offers no real story justification for Ryo being strapped for cash, in the original design for Shenmue these games would have shared save files and so Ryo's money would have continued along with his inventory, so what narrative purpose does it serve? He's not alone, he's not in a big city, no one robs him, and he has a place to stay. S3 uses the need for various leveling requirements to force the player to explore the game world and interact with the different systems; but whereas other games use this as an end in themselves (ie: finding a backpack in Spider-Man PS4 instantly gives you XP), S3 makes it a part of a much more laborious process (ie: find herbs, sell herbs for money, use money to buy capsule toys, sell capsule toys for a move, train the move). It's the difference between being directly rewarded for exploring the world (good design) and having that exploration be just one of several hoops to jump through (bad design).


But that's not how he learns the move! Ryo talks to Grandmaster Bei, then Hsu, then describes the style to martial arts shopkeepers who tell him that a Bajiquan technique will counter it (but mysteriously can't tell you which one), then you have to find the book, then you realize that a page is missing and have to go all the way back to Grandmaster Bei anyway! So the narrative thrust is "Ryo needs to learn a Bajiquan move but there are no Bajiquan masters around so he has to make due"?


But in S3 it's grind for money, buy something unrelated to martial arts, exchange that for martial arts technique, train technique, repeat. The way it's usually presented in media (Karate Kid, Kill Bill, Rocky etc.), everything is related to training. Even Xiuying forcing Ryo to air out books has the added effect of making you better at the game's QTEs and you learn moves on top of that. Everyone in S3 just keeps telling Ryo he "needs more kung fu" while asking him to perform unrelated tasks without ever explaining the philosophy the way they did in the previous games and it never gels together as a result. I could have forgiven a lot of the grinding in S3 if there was ever a scene like this:

That's not the same thing at all. He says the reason he made Ryo buy him expensive wine is so that he would "get crafty" (which means nothing), then he tells him to catch chickens (which Ryo rightly agrees is closer to actual training), then he tells him that if he only performs the move once or twice it means nothing (Ryo can't even practice the move outside of cutscenes).

Where is the culmination of everything you've been doing that "clicks" together? Where's the philosophy of what kung fu is and what martial arts should be used for? Where is the tease of how bad ass this master is and how much more Ryo needs to learn? I mean, Shenmue has done this before, just look at learning Iron Palm from S2 or how counter elbow assault is used against Dou Niu.

Is that what I said? Because I'm pretty sure that's not what I said.


Because I didn't miss that scene, you misinterpreted what I said, the scene you showed isn't deep or effective enough and, most important to what I was saying, it doesn't make the random menial tasks you were doing gel together into a cohesive philosophy. How is forcing Ryo to earn thousands of dollars grinding gambling, or fishing, or collecting herbs related to kung fu or the move he's learning?

1) The token cost for prizes actually isn't static. They change every few days the same way regular shop items do. The intermediate exchange rates are always 10:1, tokens to yuan.

2) I think in some ways the grinding is a matter of degrees. If you make a bunch of assumptions that the player is always starting from zero in both games, they're still within the same order of magnitude of each other. That's all I really care to say about the gambling. No one in his right mind is going to do a full hour+ of carrying crates, but the forklift in III is a bit of a poor point of comparison. Wood chopping can be a better time-to-Yuan investment, but it's missing the point, because there are all sorts of options that the player should regularly be engaging in between those paywalls, and sporadically collecting herbs is the most effective.

3) The game doesn't actually force the player to spend a great deal of time with acquiring move scrolls. It's highly incentivized, but it's not completely necessary. One could just drop the difficulty to Easy, train mostly stamina, and probably do just fine. There's a wealth of options when approaching the growth system, including just spending more time to understand the combat, and getting good enough to go ten rounds with every opponent. Also move scrolls can just be won from things like prizes in the arcades, and finding choubu chan. There are plenty of scrolls that require very little in terms of actual monetary resources.

4) Ryo has a place to stay in a poor village with a girl of very modest means, and then at a hotel he has to pay for. It's really not different from Hong Kong, just in reverse.

5) That is how he learns the move! The shopkeeper didn't say that 'a Bajiquan technique will defeat Ge,' he said that Bajiquan is a style that's effective against Rokugouken. Yeah, there are no Bajiquan masters around, so Ryo has to find something else that will teach him more Bajiquan. That's the Youshi Senrin manual. Bei tries to interpret it for him. It's overly convenient that it happens to be a move based on Tetsuzankou, and just sitting in a shop, but otherwise, I don't see how this can be a problem for anyone.

6) Ryo isn't being trained under a master beyond two key moves in Shenmue III. (Besides, airing out the books only rewards a number of techniques from doing well at it.) So his path as a martial artist, to continue training, means he really only has move scrolls to go on. How's he going to get them? All kinds of different ways. Yeah, maybe it would have made sense to have Ryo glean a few from some opponents he faces, also, but it really doesn't matter that much. If you don't enjoy the process of collecting scrolls, you don't really have to (as I said in 3). Your Ryo is going to suck, because he didn't put in the work, but you can still work around it.

7) The wine is a test of Ryo's dedication, and willingness to learn. It's the same as the rule of not questioning him. That's all Son is saying. It's for the audience to decide if that fully comports, and obviously it doesn't, because Son is a drunk. So Ryo, and the audience are left with the sneaking suspicion that it was also just a means of using Ryo for Son's personal benefit. Again, I don't know how there's really an issue here. How dedicated Ryo is to learning this move is a function of what he's willing to do to find the booze, and acquire it. Spoilers: Martial arts requires dedication.

 

[Down by Law]

Think about it guys. It could have been so much worse....

 

[iknifaugood]

sporadically collecting herbs is the most effective.

Would be nice if the game pointed you more in this direction than gambling.

The game doesn't actually force the player to spend a great deal of time with acquiring move scrolls. It's highly incentivized, but it's not completely necessary.

It's the only way to level up strength.

Also move scrolls can just be won from things like prizes in the arcades, and finding choubu chan. There are plenty of scrolls that require very little in terms of actual monetary resources.

Prizes in arcades still require money. To the best of my knowledge the Choubu Chan moves are the only ones that don't require money.

Ryo has a place to stay in a poor village with a girl of very modest means, and then at a hotel he has to pay for. It's really not different from Hong Kong, just in reverse.

My point was that grinding for money has become an integral part of S3's design and the story doesn't justify it since the save games are meant to continue. If my S3 save continues to S4, I should not have to grind for money (since I finished the game several thousand ahead), no matter how much Suzuki wants to make me.

That is how he learns the move! The shopkeeper didn't say that 'a Bajiquan technique will defeat Ge,' he said that Bajiquan is a style that's effective against Rokugouken. Yeah, there are no Bajiquan masters around, so Ryo has to find something else that will teach him more Bajiquan. That's the Youshi Senrin manual. Bei tries to interpret it for him. It's overly convenient that it happens to be a move based on Tetsuzankou, and just sitting in a shop, but otherwise, I don't see how this can be a problem for anyone.

It's a problem because it doesn't justify the grind. The money you need and the means by which you acquire it have nothing to do with the move, it's just padding--just make Grandmaster Fei teach Ryo the move.

Yeah, maybe it would have made sense to have Ryo glean a few from some opponents he faces, also, but it really doesn't matter that much. If you don't enjoy the process of collecting scrolls, you don't really have to (as I said in 3). Your Ryo is going to suck, because he didn't put in the work, but you can still work around it.

If anything, the combat incentivizes not having a lot of stamina (with the slow mo dodge and ability to replenish health); to my knowledge it does nothing to incentivize not having a lot of strength.

The wine is a test of Ryo's dedication, and willingness to learn. It's the same as the rule of not questioning him. That's all Son is saying. It's for the audience to decide if that fully comports, and obviously it doesn't, because Son is a drunk. So Ryo, and the audience are left with the sneaking suspicion that it was also just a means of using Ryo for Son's personal benefit. Again, I don't know how there's really an issue here. How dedicated Ryo is to learning this move is a function of what he's willing to do to find the booze, and acquire it. Spoilers: Martial arts requires dedication.

Yes, martial arts requires dedication to training martial arts, not earning money. Sun even tells Ryo that practicing the move a couple of times doesn't mean he's learned it and then he doesn't even practice the move. If, for example, he told Ryo to train by taking his jacket off repeatedly and that had a corresponding QTE to the body check, and Ryo had to do that repeatedly, that would at least make sense in terms of him training and showing dedication. Sun asking Ryo to give him a rimjob would certainly show Ryo's dedication but I don't think it would teach him much about martial arts. The gameplay has to match what the story is saying and this is all under the umbrella of finding Shenhua's kidnapped father.

(EDIT) So I take issue with the fact that grinding for money isn't fun, the story isn't set up in a way where that makes sense, grinding for money has nothing to do with training martial arts, and the game does very little to justify why so much time is spent earning money and comparatively little is spent training the actual move. It's all connected, at least for me.

 

[WuyingRen]

2) I think in some ways the grinding is a matter of degrees. If you make a bunch of assumptions that the player is always starting from zero in both games, they're still within the same order of magnitude of each other. That's all I really care to say about the gambling. No one in his right mind is going to do a full hour+ of carrying crates, but the forklift in III is a bit of a poor point of comparison. Wood chopping can be a better time-to-Yuan investment, but it's missing the point, because there are all sorts of options that the player should regularly be engaging in between those paywalls, and sporadically collecting herbs is the most effective.

I’m not sure that there are things that a player is ‘supposed to do’ outside of the main story in a game like Shenmue and I think that you’re perhaps projecting your own feelings for the series and the desire to engage with everything that the game has to offer that those feelings evoke onto every other player - whether they also happen to be fans of the series or simply casual players with no affinity for the series.

Ive just finished playing through God of War and having gone into it fairly blindly, took my instruction as to what I was supposed to be doing from the game’s narrative (in this case, kill everything that moves) and the game play elements that were highlighted as being important.

As I made my way through the game’s story, I noticed that there were green ravens and artifacts scattered around the game’s world that could be destroyed and collected (respectively). The game made no real effort to push me into engaging with these things and so I assumed that this content was optional and didn’t go out of my way to pursue it. This is intuitive game design.

Imagine now that just before I reached the game’s climax, one of the characters tells me that to experience the game’s ending, I actually needed to have destroyed all of the ravens and collected all of the artifacts and that I’ll have to go back and destroy/collect these things if I want to progress any further.

Now, instead of being optional side-activities that I could engage with if and whenever I choose to (which is what they were first presented as), these things become something that I have to go out of my way to do and something that will likely take me several hours to complete. Worse still, I could have made more of an effort to complete these tasks as I made my way through the story and saved myself a good chunk of time had I been given any indication whatsoever that they were going to be an essential part of the story. This would be terrible game design.

Saying that it’s not a grind in Shenmue 3 because players should have been picking up herbs as they explore does not absolve the poor design choice that was made here - as the game doesn’t give any indication that there’s going to be a paywall coming soon nor does it really push you to collect herbs or engage with any of the other side activities as you play before this point.

Whether or not the player collects herbs, chops wood, fishes or gambles is presented as an optional choice. Until suddenly it isn’t. At this point, if you hadn’t been doing these things already, you’re now going to have to do so for about 2 hours straight if you want to see any story progression rather than spreading this time around your playthrough to make the experience more palatable.

The reason that I chose forklifts is because it’s somewhat comparable to moving crates by hand in Shenmue 2 and gives us a reasonable idea of what each game is asking of the player when presenting them with a paywall. Looking at the numbers, obtaining 5,000 yuan in Shenmue 3 is more or less the equivalent of obtaining $1,000 in Shenmue 2 - and to make matters worse, the game goes out of its way to nerf some of the more time-efficient money making methods.

 

[Sergeynest]

Um...

You need SPEED...
Chickens coming right up

 

[Revan]

Is that what I said? Because I'm pretty sure that's not what I said.

Everyone in S3 just keeps telling Ryo he "needs more kung fu" while asking him to perform unrelated tasks without ever explaining the philosophy the way they did in the previous games and it never gels together as a result. I could have forgiven a lot of the grinding in S3 if there was ever a scene like this:

You then link a clip where Jackie Chan is explaining to Jaden Smith the reason behind why he got him to do a bunch of seemingly unrelated, menial tasks as training.

Because I didn't miss that scene, you misinterpreted what I said, the scene you showed isn't deep or effective enough and, most important to what I was saying, it doesn't make the random menial tasks you were doing gel together into a cohesive philosophy. How is forcing Ryo to earn thousands of dollars grinding gambling, or fishing, or collecting herbs related to kung fu or the move he's learning?

I didn't misunderstand anything, I merely reminded you that a scene took place that is in fact reminiscent of both the clip you cited and of the training explanations that take place in the originals.