Embracer Q3 Report Presentation @ 9AM CET (3AM EST) 19-2-2020/2-19-2020

Whether you like it or not that's smart business. All the collectors editions etc, that appeals to the fanbase. Smart business. You're forgetting it met expectations. I want numbers in sales but we wont get those.

It's much more positive than the crap that was spewed last week but we're no closer to Shenmue 4 but also no further away.



That's arguable. As I said, meeting expectations is arguable here considering Shenmue 3 wasn't singled out as doing so. And even if it was: What were the expectations since the begining ? How did they change ?


It's not more or less positive than last week, since people made the mistake last week to read "players" as sales, especially when that report was based on Gamestat.
As for this week, while Shenmue 3 was singled out as the main revenue driver for that quarter... Their second biggest one was Lets Sing 2020. And Lars calling it "but clearly not a mass market product" kinda sounds like the polite way to say "fans were happy but numbers remains small" to me.
 
On the note of questions. Myself and @24Nathan asked a mass of stuff. Here's what we sent to Embracer. Excuse the essay!

I want to ask a few questions related to Shenmue III specifically, as it pertains to your upcoming financial presentation this week, in addition to the preliminary report that the gaming media seemed to pin the end of Deep Silver and the world as we know it on poor Shenmue III. Now, as big of a fan as I am, I can fully understand and accept that Shenmue III may or may not have been a financial success by multiple definitions...I have an open mind. However, a few things bugged me about this report - specifically the amateurish way that a trophy estimation site was used as the sole source of Shenmue III's sales, which the report then basically says is solely responsible for millions of dollars of lost revenue for Deep Silver.

Without further delay, here are my questions:

1. Does the figure given in the preliminary report include the deal from Epic? How did that impact these figures? What was received from Epic and was the original investment covered? Given the Kickstarter funded the initial and largest investment, have costs overall been recouped and has a profit surfaced even if the game has underperformed?

2. Given that the game was a Kickstarter project, we can estimate at least 67k copies (digital and physical, per the numbers recorded on the Kickstarter page) were sent to players via this method. First, is this accounted for in the projections and second, were projections too ambitious given the amount of Kickstarter copies given out? Also, given sales figures for the SEGA rereleases are estimated at 250k - 400k units after 18 months, would it be unfair to compare performance of Shenmue III to these games due to the Kickstarter copies distributed?

3. In terms of marketing, was it found that the strategy was ineffective in pushing the game to new audiences and if so, why? How was Deep Silver looking to market the game to new and old players alike? Should there have been more community engagement from Deep Silver? An example is the videos led by IGN with Yu Suzuki. These videos were effective in telling new players about the game and background, yet these were not translated in good time for the English speaking audience, which is the game’s largest target market.

4. Would it be fair to assume that the PR for the game was ineffective across the entire development? The gaming media were consistently using old assets in their articles, previews, and even reviews. The trailers shown, while appealing to fans, did not show the game in the best light until the final few trailers. This creates an image in the gamers’ mind around the game that is negative and very difficult to change. Should Deep Silver have done more around managing this?

5. We know that the figures Gamstat are often inaccurate, as it is a trophy tracking site. What is the long term projection/expectation for sales of Shenmue III from Deep Silver? Is more accurate data available? The fact that a publicly viewable site like this is what a company as large as the Embracer Group/Koch Media is using to prepare an investor report is incredibly misleading and very unprofessional. With the critical reception around Shenmue being mostly positive despite misinformation floating around since 2015 about funding, timeline, the Epic, etc., why did the company feel the need to launch a figurative torpedo into the game’s narrative in the public eye?

6. Is it fair to label Shenmue III as the reason for Deep Silver’s financials being revised whereas the same methodology the Terminator: Resistance game had only 33k players over the same period, with what looks to be significantly more investment.?

7. The deal with Epic games contributed to a massive PR backlash. Given that other Deep Silver titles have served well on the platform, it is understandable this route was taken. However, a niche franchise like Shenmue can ill afford such negative PR. Is it felt this had a negative impact on the overall performance of the game and in review, would this decision be reconsidered if a similar situation arose again?

What begs the question is how much did Deep Silver really care about the franchise as a whole? Let's review 2017 - release.

1. The 2017 trailer, over one million views on PlayStation’s official YouTube alone. Now, I get the argument for and against but let’s be honest: negative news flows much faster and sticks. Why release a trailer which is basically alpha stage? Environments were fine, but the models curated a mass of criticism. Even fans had to look twice. Was it pressure of the Kickstarter? Or was it Deep Silver pushing? If what we're led to believe is true, Cedric Biscay had a massive disagreement with Deep Silver over this, hence Shibuya Productions not having their name on the trailer.

2. Let’s take the Epic thing out of the PR discussion for a moment. What PR has there been? Media were consistently using old materials, even into release. Why wasn't this addressed publicly? Deep Silver should have come down on this. Next is the community relationship...there wasn't one. We’ve seen community managers on Twitter talking about being involved with the game, where even the most hardcore members of Ys Net’s own affiliated community websites don’t even recognize their name. We’ve seen members not being able to get in touch with Deep Silver/Koch Media regarding the game, merchandise, etc., because of poor communication. It seems crazy not to market the game with the help of the fanbase who know it best., and initially made it possible with arguably the biggest source of funds.
What about the whole embargo issue, another problem the game didn't need?

3. Epic: Now, from a money making sense, it is understandable. But from a PR front, this could well have been one of the single worst things to happen. While most hardcore fans don’t care about using another storefront, the strength of discontent was major among more casual fans and even some hardcore ones. Major titles like Metro could recoup from this, but with a niche title like Shenmue, I fear the reputation has taken such a hit that it will linger for years, which ruined trust with some fans and created more negative press that Deep Silver didn't deal with.

Thank you so much for your work with Shenmue III. I hope to see continued support throughout the release of the remaining DLC and the Steam release of Shenmue III.
 
That's arguable. As I said, meeting expectations is arguable here considering Shenmue 3 wasn't singled out as doing so. And even if it was: What were the expectations since the begining ? How did they change ?


It's not more or less positive than last week, since people made the mistake last week to read "players" as sales, especially when that report was based on Gamestat.
As for this week, while Shenmue 3 was singled out as the main revenue driver for that quarter... Their second biggest one was Lets Sing 2020. And Lars calling it "but clearly not a mass market product" kinda sounds like the polite way to say "fans were happy but numbers remains small" to me.
If numbers are small but profitable what's the issue?

Long term I get the concerns as the biggest investment (allegedly) is the kickstarter and that funding would need to be found on top of what DS brought in and Shibuya. That extra investment is the risk they have to balance.
 
If numbers are small but profitable what's the issue?

Long term I get the concerns as the biggest investment (allegedly) is the kickstarter and that funding would need to be found on top of what DS brought in and Shibuya. That extra investment is the risk they have to balance.


Opportunity cost is the problem.
There's no way DS lost money on Shenmue III. But ressources are finite.
You have to case:
1- Investing 5 millions in game A and making your money back and a bit more.
2- Investing 2 millions in game B and doubling your investment in term of gains.

See my point ? While nothing real was lost, companies also think in term of lost opportunities. Of course, there's more to profit. But the problem is, I think when DS partnered with Shenmue III, they hoped to land a title with a nice critical reception, over 70 or even 75 at least. In the end they got a title in their portfolio with a lukewarm reception, both critical and commercial. Hence the "glad the fans liked it but it's clearly not a mass market product".

Shenmue IV is a safe investment. Shenmue IV also isn't a safe investment.

It is a safe investment as I doubt it'll be a money pit. It isn't because companies either look for high quality products or high profits because of opportunity cost.
 
Terminator Resistance is great. If you're a fan of terminator 1 and 2, youll love this game

It's in my backlog, I'm really looking forward to it!

Regarding Shenmue....it's worth nothing a 4th entry, if funded by Deep Silver, could come to all platforms which would help. It wouldn't take long to do a digest video of III either
 
The issue is III may not be profitable, or profits may be small enough that it wouldn't be worth publishing IV without the added buffer of Kickstarter + Epic cash which, combined, was a big chunk of change.

Unfortunately we're still stuck speculating, but the remarks about pleasing fans leaves me with the feeling that Deep Silver may just pass on IV, and there ain't no way SEGA's going to invest their own money in it. Hope I'm wrong, of course.
 
Opportunity cost is the problem.
There's no way DS lost money on Shenmue III. But ressources are finite.
You have to case:
1- Investing 5 millions in game A and making your money back and a bit more.
2- Investing 2 millions in game B and doubling your investment in term of gains.

See my point ? While nothing real was lost, companies also think in term of lost opportunities. Of course, there's more to profit. But the problem is, I think when DS partnered with Shenmue III, they hoped to land a title with a nice critical reception, over 70 or even 75 at least. In the end they got a title in their portfolio with a lukewarm reception, both critical and commercial. Hence the "glad the fans liked it but it's clearly not a mass market product".

Shenmue IV is a safe investment. Shenmue IV also isn't a safe investment.

It is a safe investment as I doubt it'll be a money pit. It isn't because companies either look for high quality products or high profits because of opportunity cost.
I perfectly see your point and fully understand opportunity cost. It might have been years but I still have my business degree.

EDIT: response ended up as quotations!

Anyway, yes fully get your point. It's been a long time but I've a Business degree so understand the principle of opportunity cost.

They could also (though unlikely) use it as a small loss leader to push people towards their other brands.

I agree it wont be a money black hole but it comes down to how they view it within their business model. If they feel it is worth their time for the little extra profit then they may well go for it, though my reservations around their ability to market and manage pr are clear.

Its whether they see it as worth the risk/investment. If it's about making quick money then its certainly not. If its about longevity and having another named brand that can generate an income stream, admittedly by exploiting the fanbase, then the risk is viable
 
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I read the report and was am pretty happy to see their statements & the wording used. To me it's clear that it met their expectations (aka made them money) and they speak of it in a positive light.

I still believe Shenmue IV will be made and I think DS will be involved in that process. I was looking forward to seeing the numbers of the actual sales, but to be honest if they are happy with how S3 performed, then that's all that's needed for me.

If it wasn't clear already, Shenmue will never receive the massive budget that the first 2 games were granted, but it doesn't need to be a AAA game that pushes the boundaries of graphical & technical advancement in gaming. Yu's goal is to continue making the games, so that he can ultimately wrap up the story. I'm sure he will have conveyed this to whomever he was doing deals with in regards to the series. If you, after 15+ years, managed to finally get the ball rolling (with a pretty fantastic start = AKA the highest funded Kickstarter), wouldn't you pounce on that, and leverage it to complete your goal?

Yes, we don't have the official sales numbers of Shenmue III, but at this point, 2 of the parties behind the scenes (Deep Silver & Cedric) have said they are both happy with Shenmue III, and that's more than good enough for me.

P.S - Didn't know we had some many professional financial advisers and business experts in here.
 
Having woken up well after the fact and having taken it all in, it seems to me like a better position to be in than what we all thought was the case last week. Expectations were met? Great, not really taking a negative slant on that. GT, you seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on that they said they were happy the core fans were pleased, and that it's not a mass market product. We all knew this already and to me it just seems as a way of saying that it didn't break any records. It's like anything else that's not a direct factual statement, in that it can be taken with a positive or negative slant depending on your predisposition.

To round it up, this has put me at ease significantly on the back of last week's speculations and gamestats figures. I feel more positively towards SIV being a realistic proposition at this point in time. Considering last week we were hearing S3 was the reason why DS was dropping their quarterly forecasts by several millions due to low sales, and now knowing that was shite and it in fact has performed according to expectations and has been DS's main revenue driver. Yes, I understand the arguments of why this could be taken as a roundabout way of saying it hasn't performed well, but I genuinely believe that narrative requires more of a stretch.

Definitely feel more positive about the whole thing atm.


P.S - Didn't know we had some many professional financial advisers and business experts in here.

I do find this hilarious sometimes. I've seen it in so many fandoms, whenever financial speculation arises suddenly everyone is an expert.
 
Here's the summary

Official Report
Shenmue III was the principal Deep Silver revenue driver in the quarter, followed by another new release of Let’s Sing 2020. Moreover, Metro Exodus continued to give a significant con-tribution to Deep Silver’s revenue in the quarter

From the presentation
Core fans were happy and we're glad we could please them. Shenmue 3 is not a triple A mass product

From the QNA
CEO states that Shenmue 3 has done fine financially. He says its an ip he loves and hes glad core fans are pleased. He thinks its a challenge to see this as a mass market product and that it is a core niche product.

More good than bad. Ill update my shenmue iv thread at some point

Ill also add direct quotes later today
 
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Here's the summary

Official Report
"Shenmue III was the principal Deep Silver revenue driver in the quarter, followed by another new release of Let’s Sing 2020. Moreover, Metro Exodus continued to give a significant con-tribution to Deep Silver’s revenue in the quarter"

From the presentation
Core fans were happy and we're glad we could please them. Shenmue 3 is not a triple A mass product

From the QNA
CEO states that Shenmue 3 has done fine financially. He says its an ip he loves and hes glad core fans are pleased. He thinks its a challenge to see this as a mass market product and that it is a core niche product.


More good than bad. Ill update my shenmue iv thread at some point
If someone post it in the Dojo Social media we can start spreading it, for me it is fairly positive
 



Here's the summary

Official Report
"Shenmue III was the principal Deep Silver revenue driver in the quarter, followed by another new release of Let’s Sing 2020. Moreover, Metro Exodus continued to give a significant con-tribution to Deep Silver’s revenue in the quarter"

From the presentation
Core fans were happy and we're glad we could please them. Shenmue 3 is not a triple A mass product

From the QNA
CEO states that Shenmue 3 has done fine financially. He says its an ip he loves and hes glad core fans are pleased. He thinks its a challenge to see this as a mass market product and that it is a core niche product.

More good than bad. Ill update my shenmue iv thread at some point


Quite happy with that as far as it goes. I do like this in particular;

"He says its an ip he loves and hes glad core fans are pleased."
 
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