Kickstarter Update #102 - PC Gaming Show Update: New Trailer & Epic Games Store Exclusive For PC Version! Part 2

[GhostTrick]

@GhostTrick

you still didnt order anything.
you cant buy anything on Kickstarter. Kickstarter is about helping out, so a project can be completed.
the project creators can offer you a reward for your help but you are not simply buying this reward
because Kickstarter is not a shop.

the project creator doesnt want your help to create rewards,
they want your money to complete the project.

after the project is done, they have to do their best to complete the project and the offered reward.
but if the project creator encounters a problem that affects you,
it doesnt mean that you can just cancel or insist on something else.
you didnt buy a Steam key, you can not buy Steam keys on Kickstarter.
a Steam key was a bonus offer for your generosity but they dont owe you a Steam key.

of course no serious project creator wants to rip you off, so they will do their best to offer you something with the same value.
in this case they are offering you exactly the product you backed - Shenmue 3
but instead of a Steam key its a Epic key. they delivered the target of the project.

fangamer is just working with YS Net, that doesnt change anything. they are helping them in this project
and the project is only available on Kickstarter. you didnt buy anything on Fangamer.
you can not buy S3 Kickstarter rewards on Fangamer dot com.
it says "Your Backer Survey".
they are offering the exact same things from Kickstarter because they are just handling this process for YS Net.
and again, they are doing their best to fullfill everything but that doesnt mean that you can insist on a specific reward.

from the Kickstarter blog:
“It’s hard to know how many people feel like they’re shopping at a store when they’re backing projects on Kickstarter,
but we want to make sure that it’s no one”

Erf, it's like you didn't read my post in fact.

Because you're stating wrong things actually:
Not only you ordered your S3 Kickstarter rewards on Fangamer.com. But as I said, you could even buy MORE things on Fangamer. If you wanted to add an additional copy (despite the kickstarter being over), you could. You could also upgrade your Kickstarter tier to a certain limit and pay on Fangamer.

No, Fangamer isn't working only with YsNet. You could purchase additionnal perks. You could add a PS4 version or a PC version. Multiple people did. And pay for it. They aren't only offering the Kickstarter reward you bought, they also letted you buy more of these.

 

[WuyingRen]

Erf, it's like you didn't read my post in fact.

Because you're stating wrong things actually:
Not only you ordered your S3 Kickstarter rewards on Fangamer.com. But as I said, you could even buy MORE things on Fangamer. If you wanted to add an additional copy (despite the kickstarter being over), you could. You could also upgrade your Kickstarter tier to a certain limit and pay on Fangamer.

No, Fangamer isn't working only with YsNet. You could purchase additionnal perks. You could add a PS4 version or a PC version. Multiple people did. And pay for it. They aren't only offering the Kickstarter reward you bought, they also letted you buy more of these.

With this in mind, it sounds like you should take your complaint to Fangamer rather than YSNet, DS or Kickstarter as it is them that you have entered into a contract with. I wouldn’t hold your breath though.

 

[GhostTrick]

With this in mind, it sounds like you should take your complaint to Fangamer rather than YSNet, DS or Kickstarter as it is them that you have entered into a contract with. I wouldn’t hold your breath though.

Nah, because Fangamer is a representent of YsNet.

 

[Tosh]

@GhostTrick

yeah so? you will receive the Pc and or PS4 version. even if you can upgrade or whatever,
those are still the rewards from Kickstarter. you can not order rewards. its a backer survey,
a survey for people who supported the project (people who want to bring Shenmue 3 to life),
not a survey for people who bought rewards.
the reward list is not a shopping list.
Fangamer doesnt sell Steam keys, Kickstarter doesnt sell Steam keys.
you didnt pay Fangamer. they said that even after the Kickstarter was over, that any additional money
will be used for the project - Shenmue 3 by YS Net, which you will receive.

even on the Fangamer fullfillment page it says: "For backers" and "are you a existing backer? head to the survey page".
even the people who paid later on the paypal page are still called backers.
look on the update page on Kickstarter about the survey, they explicitly say that all of the things are Kickstarter rewards.

 

[GhostTrick]

@GhostTrick

yeah so? you will receive the Pc and or PS4 version. even if you can upgrade or whatever,
those are still the rewards from Kickstarter. you can not order rewards. its a backer survey,
a survey for people who supported the project (people who want to bring Shenmue 3 to life),
not a survey for people who bought rewards.
the reward list is not a shopping list.
Fangamer doesnt sell Steam keys, Kickstarter doesnt sell Steam keys.
you didnt pay Fangamer. they said that even after the Kickstarter was over, that any additional money
will be used for the project - Shenmue 3 by YS Net, which you will receive.

even on the Fangamer fullfillment page it says: "For backers" and "are you a existing backer? head to the survey page".
even the people who paid later on the paypal page are still called backers.
look on the update page on Kickstarter about the survey, they explicitly say that all of the things are Kickstarter rewards.

I think you're misunderstanding something here, I may recall an important point:

People had the POSSIBILITY to BUY ADDITIONNAL PERKS.
I'll give a simple exemple: Say you backed the regular digital PS4 version. Fangamer also allowed you to BUY the regular digital Steam version, on TOP of your initial backing and allowed you to PAY for it. It's not only about upgrade, it's also about buying additionnal ones.

It was a shopping list on Fangamer. That's how it was presented. You could add more.

The moment we passed through Fangamer, these became orders.

I also paid for a Physical Steam version through Fangamer.

We are owed those keys. No question here.

 

[Fain]

@GhostTrick

yeah so? you will receive the Pc and or PS4 version. even if you can upgrade or whatever,
those are still the rewards from Kickstarter. you can not order rewards. its a backer survey,
a survey for people who supported the project (people who want to bring Shenmue 3 to life),
not a survey for people who bought rewards.
the reward list is not a shopping list.
Fangamer doesnt sell Steam keys, Kickstarter doesnt sell Steam keys.
you didnt pay Fangamer. they said that even after the Kickstarter was over, that any additional money
will be used for the project - Shenmue 3 by YS Net, which you will receive.

even on the Fangamer fullfillment page it says: "For backers" and "are you a existing backer? head to the survey page".
even the people who paid later on the paypal page are still called backers.
look on the update page on Kickstarter about the survey, they explicitly say that all of the things are Kickstarter rewards.

Out of curiosity, why are you defending this? During the Kickstarter they offered a PC version. At that time, it was a valid assumption to take that as being a Steam version as that is what EVERYONE meant when they said PC version. That assumption was further reinforced when they said you needed Steam in the requirements and you could select Steam as your PC version.

Now, the cheese has been moved and they went with a down right hated distribution platform for a company whose business practices are frankly unethical. Epic knows that what they do pisses people off but they don’t care and do it time and time again. Deep Silver knew what to expect and they did it anyway, and then said “well we had nothing to do with the Kickstarter” which shows how little they care about backer satisfaction.

If they had said “console version” during Kickstarter and the only console out at the time was PS4 and it said it required a PS4 and you selected PS4 as your version and then 5 months before release they told you the console version was going to be Google Stadia, how would you feel?

 

[Ren]

@GhostTrick

yeah so? you will receive the Pc and or PS4 version. even if you can upgrade or whatever,
those are still the rewards from Kickstarter. you can not order rewards. its a backer survey,
a survey for people who supported the project (people who want to bring Shenmue 3 to life),
not a survey for people who bought rewards.
the reward list is not a shopping list.
Fangamer doesnt sell Steam keys, Kickstarter doesnt sell Steam keys.
you didnt pay Fangamer. they said that even after the Kickstarter was over, that any additional money
will be used for the project - Shenmue 3 by YS Net, which you will receive.

even on the Fangamer fullfillment page it says: "For backers" and "are you a existing backer? head to the survey page".
even the people who paid later on the paypal page are still called backers.
look on the update page on Kickstarter about the survey, they explicitly say that all of the things are Kickstarter rewards.

Are you even getting the game for PC or for PS4?
As well how much was your pledge.
Epic is an inferior service. It's a reduce in value without our consent.
As well have you read all the negative backlash? This is not just a few people multiple backers are upset about this.
They damage the public image of Shenmue and Ys Net and unless they take responsibility this will have a severe backlash in sales.
Kickstarter is not a shop but they Made Promise to us and multiple times they clearly said Steam license and only changed in the last minute just because Deep Silver basically sold their games portfolio exclusivity to epic games. Epic didn't fund Shenmue. deep silver sold us out without our concern.

 

[GhostTrick]

Out of curiosity, why are you defending this? During the Kickstarter they offered a PC version. At that time, it was a valid assumption to take that as being a Steam version as that is what EVERYONE meant when they said PC version. That assumption was further reinforced when they said you needed Steam in the requirements and you could select Steam as your PC version.

Now, the cheese has been moved and they went with a down right hated distribution platform for a company whose business practices are frankly unethical. Epic knows that what they do pisses people off but they don’t care and do it time and time again. Deep Silver knew what to expect and they did it anyway, and then said “well we had nothing to do with the Kickstarter” which shows how little they care about backer satisfaction.

If they had said “console version” during Kickstarter and the only console out at the time was PS4 and it said it required a PS4 and you selected PS4 as your version and then 5 months before release they told you the console version was going to be Google Stadia, how would you feel?

That's the problem right now. A lot of the fans are getting defensive against each others. I can understand that, after seeing a lot of undeserved hate going as far as name calling, some people would feel defensive. But it's not an excuse to dismiss the fact that we were lied. Something was promised. Orders were filled. Which for close to a year specified not PC but Steam.

I'd be curious if, not for Stadia, but if people were offered the game only through PS Now. How would they react.

 

[Tosh]

@Fain

i'm not defending - i'm trying to explain to you that Kickstarter is not Amazon.

the whole meaning of Kickstarter is to give money to the project creator so that he can complete this project.
the project you can see right on the top of every Kickstarter page. thats the goal.
you are giving your money for this target.

the rewards are a completely different thing, you can not buy these rewards.
the rewards are a thank-you from the project creator that you will receive on top
of the finished project goal if everything works out fine.

that doesnt mean that they owe you this specific reward just because you backed this project. you didnt buy the reward.
you backed the target of the project.
thats all i want to explain.

 

[GhostTrick]

@Fain

i'm not defending - i'm trying to explain to you that Kickstarter is not Amazon.

the whole meaning of Kickstarter is to give money to the project creator so that he can complete this project.
the project you can see right on the top of every Kickstarter page. thats the goal.
you are giving your money for this target.

the rewards are a completely different thing, you can not buy these rewards.
the rewards are a thank-you from the project creator that you will receive on top
of the finished project goal if everything works out fine.

that doesnt mean that they owe you this specific reward just because you backed this project. you didnt buy the reward.
you backed the target of the project.
thats all i want to explain.

And as I explained to you, the moment we've been through Fangamer, which in legal terms was an order/purchase, it wasn't about a Kickstarter reward anymore.

 

[Tosh]

@GhostTrick

show me some deed of sale where it says something like "thank your for your order at fangamer",
"this is your fangame order confirmation for your order xyz",
"your fangame order number is ...", "you ordered item xyz"
"you chose xyz as pay method" and so on.

and i mean the typical mail you get when you bought something on Amazon or whatever.
i'm not talking about "surveys", "rewards" or "Kickstartre tiers / upgrades".

 

[Reprise]

If they had said “console version” during Kickstarter and the only console out at the time was PS4 and it said it required a PS4 and you selected PS4 as your version and then 5 months before release they told you the console version was going to be Google Stadia, how would you feel?

That's an asinine analogy and is in no way comparable. For a start, no one is making you buy an entirely different system, you are still getting a PC version.

And for the record, I pledged plenty of Kickstarters for Wii U and Vita versions that never materialised. I understood why those versions were scrapped and moved on with my life. Besides, as I already mentioned, it's not even comparable.

 

[socialjeebus]

I was formerly a reasonably active member here ( around 2005 - account deleted, presumably due to inactivity) and now a returnee.

I was elated when Shenmue 3 was first announced, but as I'm not a fan of crowdfunding I held off supporting the Kickstarter project - fully intending to buy the physical PS4 version when it's released.

Reading through the mass of comments here, particularly those focused on the Epic exclusivity bombshell - it's clear that many people dismissing people's concerns, outside of the extreme comments (threats, etc), simply don't understand the vast difference in functionality between Steam and the EGS.

The EGS is little more than a semi-functional storefront with a crippled barely functional launcher tacked on. Epic considers the complete lack of any user interactivity on the store to be a selling point to devs/publishers keen to avoid dealing with their customers.

Steam is a sophisticated feature-rich user-centric platform which, for better or worse (and often it's worse but often it's also better), places the user (customer) at the centre of the experience. User reviews, broadcasting, forums, community groups, market places, badges and cards (extra revenue for publishers/devs), achievements, cloud saves, offline play, user profiles, library sharing, and even really basic features like shopping carts and wish lists (even ignore lists) are just some of the features of Steam which are unavailable on the Epic Game Store.

So really the bait-and-switch for many, including myself tbh - because I envisioned buying it on both platforms on release, isn't just the annoyance of needing a 5th or 6th launcher (Steam, Origin, Uplay, Itch.io and Battle.net in my case) - but it's about facing the prospect of only being able to buy a demonstrably and materially worse product than I was hoping for the first year of release.

With the delayed release (right into the middle of the peak season), and presumably year-long exclusivity deal meaning that Shenmue 3 faces the prospect of releasing onto Steam as a year-old game at the height of next year's peak season too, the negative reaction to the exclusivity announcement completely overshadowing some promising E3 trailers, and the atrocious PR response to situation (really the Deep Silver pinned topic in the Shenmue 3 Steam forum is a masterclass in how not to respond to a backlash) - I think that Shenmue 3 is going to have to launch with a deep discount when it finally does hit Steam just to stay relevant.

 

[Reprise]

Oh some of us understand. It's been explained numerous times. Yes, it's an inferior service. We just don't feel the extent of the backlash is warranted...

 

[socialjeebus]

Oh some of us understand. It's been explained numerous times. Yes, it's an inferior service. We just don't feel the extent of the backlash is warranted...

Whether or not anyone feels it is warranted or not is irrelevant. It's happening and Deep Silver is actively making it worse.

 

[Ren]

Oh some of us understand. It's been explained numerous times. Yes, it's an inferior service. We just don't feel the extent of the backlash is warranted...

Backlash is warranted for the people that spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for the "In-game content" only accessible for backers that invested more. Not only do I have to install another launcher instead of keeping Shenmue I & II and Shenmue III in the same platform I can't even play the games offline!
It's serious reduce in user experience and value.

 

[Sh3ppy]

Backlash is warranted for the people that spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for the "In-game content" only accessible for backers that invested more. Not only do I have to install another launcher instead of keeping Shenmue I & II and Shenmue III in the same platform I can't even play the games offline!
It's serious reduce in user experience and value.

Out of curiosity, what in game rewards will you not be able to access?

 

[warbb]

The problem isn't fans reacting badly. Deep Silver knew this would happen, because it happens every time and they've done it before. Shenmue relies on a brilliant fan community and the game had a ton of goodwill initially. Deep Silver have knowingly thrown much of that in the bin.

Shenmue 3 could have appeared on every platform at launch. We need decent sales for the series to continue. The negativity that DS and Epic have wrought can only damage potential sales, including on console.

Do I have to give the Epic store any card details to reclaim a Shenmue 3 code? I can hold a grudge forever so I won't be using their platform to buy anything.

 

[GhostTrick]

@GhostTrick

show me some deed of sale where it says something like "thank your for your order at fangamer",
"this is your fangame order confirmation for your order xyz",
"your fangame order number is ...", "you ordered item xyz"
"you chose xyz as pay method" and so on.

and i mean the typical mail you get when you bought something on Amazon or whatever.
i'm not talking about "surveys", "rewards" or "Kickstartre tiers / upgrades".

Just on top
"Confirmation for Order n° /////"

"Customer information"

"Subtotal: 300 dollars"

The only reason there was no paiement option is because I didn't add another copy. But it was possible to do so. Some people did. And when they did, they had to pay with a payment option.

No matter how you want to twist it, we didn't fill a survey but an order. And our Kickstarter pledge granted us a prepay for the shop.

 

[paddyj]

They do benefit, potentially quite a bit, as they get 88% of the revenue (Epic takes 12% of the cut) per unit sold versus 65% on Steam (Valve gets 30% and Epic would've still received 5% per the Unreal Engine licensing agreement). If they also guaranteed revenue up to a certain point, making up for some lost sales, it might not be too bad.

As an example, if Shenmue 3 sells 100,000 units on the EGS at $50, they (presumably Deep Silver and YsNet together) receive $4,400,000 of the revenue. They would've needed to sell 135,385 units on Steam to receive the same amount of revenue. I can't blame Deep Silver for chasing the money, as long as it works out to not just benefit themselves. They also need to not screw over the backers, and work out a deal that benefits them while potentially maintaining the exclusivity for the general public.

When you put it like this EGS seems like an absolute no-brainer