Random Gaming Thoughts

Rydeen said:
That's kind of the opposite scenario, though. That was Sega taking a Nintendo property, and doing what they did best in order to make an actually fun game out of it.
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Yep. Nagoshi's conditions were that Nintendo would back off and let them handle development or he wouldn't make it.
"If Nintendo planned to hold our hands through development, I would have suggested they develop the game themselves. That way we could focus on a project which would reflect our studio's abilities.
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Nintendo had the money, but Sega had the talent. Also just a bonus because Sega rules and n*ntendo drools:
When asked about the differences in how Nintendo and Sega developed games, he would sum it up with Sega being more flashy and having a more light-hearted attitude when it comes to new ideas. Nagoshi says that if he started working at Nintendo instead of Sega, he would have already quit the videogame industry.
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I'd love to see Nintendo develop a Sonic game; or I'd at least like Sega give Sonic to another team at Sega. The Sega idea would've probably worked better if studios like HitMaker and Amusement Vision were still around. I'm not even a Nintendo fan-boy--I swear! I just really believe Nintendo does their best when they make a first party game, and I find it unfortunate Sonic Team did not live up to those same standards.

Playing the Crash trilogy right now. The first Crash Bandicoot is like the perfect 3D platform-er. Linear, clean visuals and challenging. I was breaking into a sweat playing a couple levels last night... Just the way I like it.
 
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Jet Set Radio and Super Monkey Ball seem more like a successful execution of the Sonic formula in 3D than any 3D Sonic tbh. It's all about momentum and using your environment to keep your momentum up, not pure speed.
 
That's exactly it. I tire of the "Sonic moves fast; that's why 3D Sonic doesn't work!" or "That's why we need 50 friends with terrible gameplay in our Sonic games" arguments. Sonic Team just haven't tried to change the formula. Sonic Utopia could definitely work:


2D Sonic is about speed to an extent, but it's about knowing the levels and harnessing momentum as well. Yuji Naka would've probably figured out how to make a great 3D Sonic by now. Shame he's just collecting iOS game checks now...
 
Rydeen said:
That's kind of the opposite scenario, though. That was Sega taking a Nintendo property, and doing what they did best in order to make an actually fun game out of it.
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Aye, fair point.

Rydeen said:
I'm not sure I really see your point on the audio thing. I was scanning through cutscenes from the game, and the only voice audio that seems consistently low is Eggman. Also instances where the BGM has vocals while characters are talking seems to be rather rare. Besides that, aren't there audio level sliders in the options? I recall the audio options for both Sonic Adventures being fairly extensive, even including dual-audio for voices.
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Consistently low, yeah, but I find that just as bad. The fact that they could get it right sometimes makes the issues all the more baffling to me. And the dialogue overlap? C'mon...

Rydeen said:
Story, level design, progression, sfx use, English VA, treasure hunter stages? Yeah, SA2 is not my preference, but for some people it is. I'd agree that in retrospect I don't feel SA2 is exactly a 9/10 game, but it's not really a broken mess like Sonic '06 or Sonic Heroes, either.
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I'd consider it "broken" if it was unintentional. For me it wasn't, just very badly designed and implemented, so maybe I used the wrong word.

BloodyHeartland said:
Calling SA2 a buggy mess even in comparison to the first game...man I’ve seen everything now. There’s a bit of a difference in a game being straight up awful and being bad at a game and blaming it.
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Oh, I still aced the game on the Dreamcast. I'm going through it now on the 360 to get all the achievements, which is why my loud dislike for the unjust praise the game gets has resurfaced. Whilst I wouldn't call myself a "pro" at any video game, I've always been pretty decent at Sonic ones.

I get that some people blame a game for their own shortcomings, but really, I'm looking at the nuts and bolts of it all. The first one was at least designed in such a way that bugs felt like bugs. Small oversights in specific sections, as opposed to recurring issues that were clearly the result of highly questionable decision making.

mjqjazzbar said:
I'd at least like Sega give Sonic to another team at Sega.
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They already did that tbh with Dimps, though I think Sonic Team still got the "title screen credit" for development.
KidMarine said:
Jet Set Radio and Super Monkey Ball seem more like a successful execution of the Sonic formula in 3D than any 3D Sonic tbh. It's all about momentum and using your environment to keep your momentum up, not pure speed.
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Yeah, I touched on JSR showing how rail grinding should be done in the three hour rant I wrote than no sane person will ever read.

Having said that, there's summat mind-numbingly satisfying about just holding the boost button in modern 3D Sonic games to just bolt through levels, swatting unfortunate enemies away like flies.

I also agree with @mjqjazzbar to an extent. My introduction to Sonic was the first Master System entry. The opening level had speed, the others didn't really. I always took it as "the character is supposed to be fast" rather than "the games are meant to be fast".

Having said that, I've obviously learned since that SEGA wanted a fast character to show off the Mega Drive's power in comparison to the SNES, but that doesn't mean that the approach can't work in the games.

Whilst I only played the demo and didn't think much of it, I still can't help but feel that they were onto something with Sonic Heroes (despite apparently not executing it well)

Give the player a choice between straight up blasting through a level as Sonic, beating your way through as Knuckles (lol), or platforming and exploring secret shortcuts near the top of the level as Tails. Allowing the player to do this on the fly 👀 would be a decent way of incorporating three playstyles without forcing anyone to go through "the boring levels".
 
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mjqjazzbar said:
I'd love to see Nintendo develop a Sonic game; or I'd at least like Sega give Sonic to another team at Sega. The Sega idea would've probably worked better if studios like HitMaker and Amusement Vision were still around. I'm not even a Nintendo fan-boy--I swear! I just really believe Nintendo does their best when they make a first party game, and I find it unfortunate Sonic Team did not live up to those same standards.

Playing the Crash trilogy right now. The first Crash Bandicoot is like the perfect 3D platform-er. Linear, clean visuals and challenging. I was breaking into a sweat playing a couple levels last night... Just the way I like it.
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Personally, I still feel that Rayman 2 is the perfect 3D platformer; no Mario, Sonic or even Sony titles come close.
 
KidMarine said:
Jet Set Radio and Super Monkey Ball seem more like a successful execution of the Sonic formula in 3D than any 3D Sonic tbh. It's all about momentum and using your environment to keep your momentum up, not pure speed.
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I always felt like the Genesis Sonic games, Nights Into Dreams, and Jet Set Radio had a similar feel to them because of that. All fantastic games.
 
mjqjazzbar said:
Perhaps you don’t love Mario, but I really don’t see how you can argue 3D Mario games have not generally advanced the platformer genre or been developed with the utmost care and quality. I’m not exactly sure what Sonic Team has achieved with the 3D Sonic series beyond damaging Sonic’s reputation with most gamers.

The 2D games are something else entirely. 3D Sonic is a huge disappointment compared to what Sonic Team achieved on the Genesis.
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Hopefully, this will be the only time I go back on my word. However, there are many things in this thread I can't resist addressing.

The original western release of Sonic Adventure was delayed a year to fix the broken Japanese version; Sonic Forces was also held back to fix its issues. So to say that Sonic Team does not care about the quality of their products is inaccurate especially considering that they have to release their games according to their publishers at SEGA.

If we're going to start using glitches and bugs in video games as a metric to judge a game's quality, then the vast majority of video games (including Mario) are bad. Outside of Sonic the Hedgehog 2006, none of the bugs found in the majority of Sonic games are game-breaking. I find using this argument to berate Sonic games alone to be utterly hypocritical.

When it comes to the automated sections in Sonic games, they have always been around. Unless you want to overlook the short transitions in Sonic 2's Chemical Plant or Sonic 3 and Knuckles Flying Battery Zones. The difference is in their length as they have progressively gotten worse in more modern titles. That being said, the critique about the Adventure games being too automated is exaggerated in my opinion.

Also, I think a lot of gamers romanticize the Genesis Era of Sonic. Most fans only remember the big three titles and forget about Team Chaotix, Sonic R, Sonic Fighters, etc. that were considered mediocre, underwhelming, or bad. Even among the big three, its usually down to just Sonic 3 and Knuckles with the original Sonic the Hedgehog game considered to be the worst.

It's fine if you never enjoyed the Adventure games (though Adventure 2 was one of the last Sonic games Yuji Naka worked on before leaving SEGA), but I largely disagree with your opinion. The original Adventure titles for the Dreamcast received near-unanimous praise in the late 90s/early 00s. It was only when games like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 were released that a lot of gamers retroactively assumed the Adventure titles were bad simply by association (something that isn't helped by the horrible ports of the Adventure titles SEGA has released over the years).

Also, I think the Adventure formula could work for contemporary audiences. All one needs to do is to take a look at the Project Heroes fan-game which combines some classic Sonic gameplay with the Adventure style.


 
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Tsukuyomimagi99 said:
Hopefully this will be the only time I go back on my word. However there are many things in this thread I can't resist addressing.

The original western release of Sonic Adventure was delayed a year to fix the broken Japanese version; Sonic Forces was also held back to fix its issues. So to say that Sonic Team does not care about the quality of their products is inaccurate; especially considering that they have to release their games according to their publishers at SEGA.

If we're going to start using glitches and bugs in video games as a metric to judge a games quality, then the vast majority of video games (including Mario) are bad. Outside of Sonic the Hedgehog 2006, none of the bugs found in the majority of Sonic games are game breaking. I find using this argument to berate Sonic games alone to be utterly hypocritical.

When it comes to the automated sections in Sonic games, they have always been around. Unless you want to overlook the short transitions in Sonic 2's Chemical Plant or Sonic 3 and Knuckles Flying Battery Zones. The difference is in their length as they have progressively gotten worse in more modern titles. That being said, the critique about the Adventure games being too automated is exaggerated in my opinion.

Also, I think a lot of gamers romanticize the Genesis Era of Sonic. Most fans only remember the big three titles and forget about Team Chaotix, Sonic R, Sonic Fighters, etc. that were considered mediocre, underwhelming, or bad. Even among the big three, its usually down to just Sonic 3 and Knuckles with the original Sonic the Hedgehog game considered to be the worst.

It's fine if you never enjoyed the Adventure games (though Adventure 2 was one of the last Sonic games Yuji Naka worked on before leaving SEGA), but I largely disagree with your opinion. The original Adventure titles for the Dreamcast received near unanimous praise in the late 90s/early 00s. It was only when games like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 were released that a lot of gamers retroactively assumed the Adventure titles were bad simply by association (something that isn't helped by the horrible ports of the Adventure titles SEGA has released over the years).

Also, I think the Adventure formula could work for contemporary audiences. All one needs to do is to take a look at the Project Heroes fan-game which combines some classic Sonic gameplay with the Adventure style.


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I enjoyed Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 enough when they were new, but they aged terribly and the ports a couple years later proved the games didn’t have much staying power. The side characters were an interesting/fun thing in the first game, but signaled a bad direction that the series really hasn’t shaken even two decades later.

I also think the collision detection and cameras in the SA games are a mess compared to 3D Mario. Maybe I’m overstating bugs when talking about the series as a whole, but there are some really bad 3D Sonic games out there that have really tainted the series. I really can’t give Sonic Team much credit for their work over the past twenty years.

We are just getting into subjective opinions now, but it’s pretty hard to argue Sonic Adventure had anywhere near the impact Mario 64 had on 3D platformers. Of course not every game can revolutionize a genre, so perhaps comparing the two series isn’t fair.

I bought Sonic Forces because I wanted an easy platformer to pick up and play. Unfortunately, Sonic Team made every level a straight line and I couldn’t even stay awake long enough to finish the game. I’m also not into Sonic storylines and they tend to pack the 3D games with excruciatingly long cutscenes and horrible Va.

That said, Sonic Mania is a million times better than the bore fest that is New Super Mario Brothers.
 
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mjqjazzbar said:
Perhaps you don’t love Mario, but I really don’t see how you can argue 3D Mario games have not generally advanced the platformer genre or been developed with the utmost care and quality. I’m not exactly sure what Sonic Team have achieved with the 3D Sonic series beyond damaging Sonic’s reputation with most gamers.

The 2D games are something else entirely. 3D Sonic is a huge disappointment compared to what Sonic Team achieved on the Genesis.
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I'm sure Mario 64 deserves some credit for movement within a 3D platformer space, but to me, the lasting legacy of Mario 64 is collectathons, and poor camera work. No cap, Mario 64 has one of the most garbage cameras I have ever seen in a 3D game. The controls aren't really a lot better. That's par for the course for early 3D platformers, though. I actually hate Mario 64 less now than I did as a kid. I just don't know how to derive any sense of fun from it. It's such a dreadful gameplay loop.

I have no idea what 3D Mario has done to advance the genre since 64, though. The one good idea they had for Mario (FLUDD) was pretty well panned for a Mario game. Mario Galaxy actually regressed by having just the most terrible water levels (it's really my only lasting memory of the game).

I'm not going to sit here and say that Sonic Heroes, '06, or Boom (I imagine) are really any good, but Unleashed, Colors and Generations are. Lost World is decidedly not bad. I think it's kind of a lazy criticism, but yeah, Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, and Mario 64 have not aged well. A lot of games from that era require some reframing in order to get past the technical aspects, though. The difference with Mario 64, I feel, is that its just so vapid, and listless. I also think you're potentially underselling the influence Adventure had in blending cinematic events into gameplay. I think SA's contributions potentially transcended the genre more than Mario 64's.


Mittens2317 said:
Consistently low, yeah, but I find that just as bad. The fact that they could get it right sometimes makes the issues all the more baffling to me. And the dialogue overlap? C'mon...
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Right, I mean, fair complaint if you're singling out Eggman. Perhaps his lines were recorded under less than optimal conditions that the audio engineers couldn't correct for. I'm really not sure about the dialogue overlap, though. Is this specifically in the levels, or during cutscenes? Both? I didn't watch through all of the cutscenes, but out of a decent sample, I really only noticed it once.

Mittens2317 said:
I'd consider it "broken" if it was unintentional. For me it wasn't, just very badly designed and implemented, so maybe I used the wrong word.
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I'm sort of with you that the quality, in hindsight, seems a little lacking. I'm just not on board with calling it a disaster.


Truck_1_0_1_ said:
Personally, I still feel that Rayman 2 is the perfect 3D platformer; no Mario, Sonic or even Sony titles come close.
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Rayman 2 is one of my favorite 3D platformers, also. I think I like Sly Cooper and the Thievious Raccoonus best, though.
 
I really enjoy Sonic Adventure 1, in the same way I enjoy Batman Forever - it's campy fun. But beyond that I feel it is the Sonic game with the best story, I liked seeing Knuckles story with the ancestors of the Echidna's, I felt it gave the players time to really indulge in that with scenes of Knuckles by the temple back in time. Maybe because I like JRPG's but I like the exploration in the HUB worlds & felt that it was very lacking in SA2.

In Sonics levels I've noticed the difference mostly is that in SA1 the levels are more linear for the most part, which suits his speed, while in SA2, I remember there being a lot more open areas in the levels.

I found myself getting quite frustrated with SA2, I can't remember if I've even beaten it. I did buy it on the Xbox 360 store recently, so it may be something I re-play soon!

As for JSR I love everything about it apart from the janky controls! which later on got too much for me. I have the sequel on Xbox now (I only got my 360 recently), so I am hoping that has fixed it.

My favourite platformer is Crash Twinsanity, which actually has a lot of structure similarities to SA1. With explorable hub worlds that actually feature tasks for collectables. The game has a diverse range of levels and brilliant writing. It's a shame we never got a sequel to this rather than the Titan/Mutant games. I played Crash of the Titans recently and did not have a fun time :p
 
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Crash Bandicoot is very linear, but it feels like a true 2D-to-3D platform evolution. I love how intense some of the levels can get. You feel anxious every time you take a leap of faith. I feel like it's the 3D equivalent of Nintendo's brilliant DK series... Every input counts.

If Sonic Team, or another team, can expand on Sonic Utopia, I think Sega will have something very special. I definitely think a great 3D Sonic is possible. They've got to find a way around the BOOST & friends formula. I think I've also had my fill of "Green Hill Zone," as much as I love it in the 2D games...
 
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