Shenmue 4 has to change if there's to be a Shenmue 5

[Radar]

I was using Yakuza as example for a popular series's fighting system that could be copied to appeal to a larger audience. I don't think Yakuza is better than Shenmue at all,

It didn't meant to be targeted at you at all, sorry if there is a misunderstanding. I was just pointing out that what you wrote is probably what other people were expecting from Shenmue. And that is a problem. As @9dragons pointed out in a post above,

Some people do not understand Shenmue that is the main problem with the series. And I cannot blame the gamers for that really. It does not fit into any mold so some gamers have heard time understanding it, because they need these molds to categorize the games they are playing.

That is what I believe is happening, people expecting Yakuza from Shenmue, and not Shenmue as something of it's own kind, something new that you can't just put a template over.

At the same time, from the business point of view, I understand why Yakuza is seen as more attractive to SEGA.
and from this point of view I understand why, especially I think this part is interesting

but its no longer in Japan. It's now in China

I don't know if it just me. but I do believe there is sense in this. I think people see Shenmue as more of Japanese rather than Chinese, and I have a feeling that people would secretly prefer if Shenmue took place in Japan rather than China.

Edit: I don't know, maybe it comes down to people's expectations and appreciations of things. I mean Shenmue has so many things to offer that many other games lacks including Yakuza, that unfortunately I felt went unnoticed or were considered as insignificant by reviewers.

 

[9dragons]

Well Radar that is not really surprising. Yakuzza is a silly action game, with a over the top main character . It has many funny and very silly moments that many people like. Compared to that Shenmue is rather boring and Ryo is not as cool as Kiryu or the rest of the cast of Yakuza. Shenmue is rally a game for just a small minority of gamers, while Yakuza is something for the masses. No you really cannot blame Sega for investing more money into Yakuza Series than in Shenmue.

 

[Radar]

Sure thing, absolutely no question about it. Art is an expression, but In the end, whoever has the gold makes the rules. If you want an artistic freedom then provide your own gold. Sad truth unfortunately.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Well Radar that is not really surprising. Yakuzza is a silly action game, with a over the top main character . It has many funny and very silly moments that many people like. Compared to that Shenmue is rather boring and Ryo is not as cool as Kiryu or the rest of the cast of Yakuza. Shenmue is rally a game for just a small minority of gamers, while Yakuza is something for the masses. No you really cannot blame Sega for investing more money into Yakuza Series than in Shenmue.

I love Yakuza, but I'm surprised it's managed to hold on to its audience over the years. The games do become pretty damn repetitive and I can't believe most folks are putting time into multiple games in the series. Maybe it's because it's still kind of new to so many people? At some point the novelty's gonna wear off.. I don't even have the ability to play each game in the series. I tend to burn out at the end of any Yakuza I play and need a nice long break.

On the other hand, each Shenmue is a new experience. I suppose I could say the same about the latest Yakuza.

 

[Revan]

I feel that Shenmue 3 is streamlined enough as it is when compared to the first two games, and even that didn't help this series to catch the attention of wider audiences. Yu proposing that Shenmue 4 have fast travel options, a faster pace and quest markers sounds fine to ensure more accessibility, but if we keep tweaking the experience even further then Shenmue will begin to lose its identity.

This franchise has been struggling to achieve mainstream interest since 1999. Changing Shenmue's style now at the 4th instalment in a desperate attempt for it to finally catch on just feels utterly futile at this point - the wider audience just isn't there and never was.

Honestly, if Shenmue needs to completely change its identity for us to possibly get a 5th game in a series, I'd rather we get a Shenmue 4 made for the fans that adapts the remaining plot to end the story. The idea of drastically changing this series at Shenmue 4 so that for instance it plays more like Yakuza than Shenmue (yeugh) just so we can maybe get a 5th game in the series sounds very unappealing to me.

 

[blixt]

I feel that Shenmue 3 is streamlined enough as it is when compared to the first two games, and even that didn't help this series to catch the attention of wider audiences. Yu proposing that Shenmue 4 have fast travel options, a faster pace and quest markers sounds fine to ensure more accessibility, but if we keep tweaking the experience even further then Shenmue will begin to lose its identity.

This franchise has been struggling to achieve mainstream interest since 1999. Changing Shenmue's style now at the 4th instalment in a desperate attempt for it to finally catch on just feels utterly futile at this point - the wider audience just isn't there and never was.

Honestly, if Shenmue needs to completely change its identity for us to possibly get a 5th game in a series, I'd rather we get a Shenmue 4 made for the fans that adapts the remaining plot to end the story. The idea of drastically changing this series at Shenmue 4 so that for instance it plays more like Yakuza than Shenmue (yeugh) just so we can maybe get a 5th game in the series sounds very unappealing to me.

I agree. Spot on! Shenmue is such a different game compared to anything else out there. It attracts people with certain personality types. I don't mean that every Shenmue fan has the exact personality, I just mean that many probably share the same reasons to why we are drawn to this type of game. We fans are often drawn to details, exploration, slow pace, story, and so forth.

If Shenmue IV preserves all of it's essence but doesn't sell well enough I wouldn't care if we never got a Shenmue V. The mind may think ´change this and change that´ but the heart says ´Shenmue should forever be shenmue and preserve the essence of what originally made it to what it is´.
I will defenetly go with my heart. For me It's either The Real Shenmue or Nothing at all. Shenmue is odd, it's rare, it's different, it has a unique atmosphere or ambience to it, and it has that spiritual depth to it. It just feels ´real´, pure and honest. That's why I love it.

 

[xatruio]

I trust Yu to keep a Shenmue feel and spirit no matter how "modern" we let our imaginations run wild. Map markers and faster travel aren't a big deal-breaker for my Shenmue immersion. Simply choose not to use, much like maps, "From Yesterday" or the area jumping in Shenmue 2 (and Shenmue ch1).

 

[blixt]

I trust Yu to keep a Shenmue feel and spirit no matter how "modern" we let our imaginations run wild. Map markers and faster travel aren't a big deal-breaker for my Shenmue immersion. Simply choose not to use, much like maps, "From Yesterday" or the area jumping in Shenmue 2.

Exactly. I think only the bigger changes could ruin the 4th game, as for example less or no voice acting for NPC's.
I think he has and still think deeply about how to make the fourth game right. Yu is without doubt an intelligent and highly creative man even for his age. He mentioned somwhere that he looked into the criticism on Sh III even though it hurted to do so.. He is looking for ways to make it work. I think he can do it. We'll see.

 

[9dragons]

As long as you turn of the modern game in shenmue I do not mind if there will be modern elements in the games. I just hope we are not going to get forced to use them.

 

[Revan]

Oh, time skip options, fast travel and map markers are more than welcome for Shenmue 4. I think each game has already dipped their toes into those features anyway.

It's the talk about stripping away minigames, jobs, NPC dialogue and cranking up the action and humour to 11 just to blindly copy the Yakuza franchise for some bizarre reason that doesn't sit right with me. But I doubt Yu would even do such a thing - its a bit too drastic and not his style.

 

[9dragons]

It is possible to enter some comfort elements in the game without destroying Shenmue. I just hope it possible not use these blinking icons. I do not like them. They are more confusing to me than using your own eyes for looking around. Yesterday I was chasing a blinking icon for half an hour in cyperpunkt 2077 and could not find the spot the icon was supposed to display. It is not only cyperpunk. Had similar problems with other open world games as well.

If Yu-San gives as gamers a choice I am not going to complain about these elements though. Everything that can help to attract more players is good.

 

[Tortu-genial]

I hope there will be no map markers in Shenmue 4

It would damage/kill all the exploration of the city/zone ....

 

[spud1897]

I've always said, if possible, they should do a "modern mode" with all those map markers etc and a "classic mode" for us more versed Shenmue players & you can choose.

How easy it would be to implement both I don't know but that could appeal to all.

 

[Tortu-genial]

if it is optionel i would be good with it.
But in modern games, you can't play without it.

If you disable the mini map (in the witcher 3 for example), you can't find where is the monster to kill to complete the quest, because the game is not design to be play without the mini map

 

[Alex banana]

If anyone's interested I wrote a blog post on this topic.

9 ways Shenmue 4 could change to fund further sequels

Few games are free of criticism and Shenmue 3, while excellent, is no exception with its issues being particularly well-documented. While adjustments are planned, further, more wide-ranging changes aimed at a mainstream audience are likely needed for Shenmue 4 to fund the series through to its...

chessunalex.wixsite.com

 

[Toua77]

I'd be okay with small quality of life improvements like the ability to skip ahead to whatever time you need or fast travel at any time. Fixing the menu to reflect what's in your inventory. These would be easy things to do. It wouldn't be the worst possible compromise for casual players, but other than that I hope they don't do such drastic changes.

This sounds a lot like trying to wrap up the series, just to appease the peanut gallery who aren't really fans. I'd rather Yu go down with the ship, and double down on what makes this Shenmue.

The appeal is that it's doing it's own thing and isn't much like what other games are. Even if it's not easy for the average gamer to digest.

I get it, the average person will probably think they're in for a B- movie Kung-fu simulator, when it's more of a slow -paced Detective Adventure game. I think he can do a better job of balancing some more action in the game. Budget aside, I'd be okay if he added some more contextual kind of fights(Whether Ryo's protecting someone from thugs, or Street fighting, or whatever). I don't think it harms much, but Ryo getting into random encounters? It fits a Yakuza trying to protect his territory, but I can't reason why Ryo would be doing that. It would be a big disconnect between this game and the older games, for me at least.

 

[xatruio]

Yeah, huge no on random encounters., but yes to more side fights... although the street fighting was waaaay better in Shenmue 3 with rose garden and vast improved Dojos

 

[gladias9]

I think Shenmue does need to change in order to survive (Assuming we even get more Shenmue games).
Though I only believe it needs to change in scale and pacing.

Shenmue 1 was very immersive but the pacing overall was far too slow for mainstream.
Shenmue 2 had great pacing in the second half but the first half felt far too aimless.
Shenmue 3 fixed the pacing issues with mini-games and forced grinding only to realize it forgot meaningful story events until the end.

If we can get a Shenmue game that simply introduces conflict early on, doesn't waste hours of time looking for insignificant NPCs or meaningless objects and gives us a satisfying narrative throughout.. Ding Ding Ding, then we'd have an absolute winner.

For clarification, "insignificant NPCs" and "meaningless objects" is referring to non-story essential filler that could've easily been an optional side-quest.

 

[danielmann861]

Is it selfish and bad of me to say that I just want Shenmue to be Shenmue and I don't care if it isn't like every other game out there? I don't care if it doesn't appeal to the mainstream at this point. Look, I'm gonna be brutally honest here. I don't think there is a turning point for this series at this point in time to capture the mainstream. I think as that end number goes up, the more it's gonna have that old Yakuza problem. Where it's gonna get harder for people to jump in with every new game and thus it's gonna keep appealing to those who are already on board. Yes, I know Yakuza 0 changed everything for the franchise, but there was that time where it was considered "for the fans only" by almost everyone of note.

I think this series, as is, is always gonna be one that appeals mainly to us and no one else. I don't know if retooling it to capture that wider audience is enough at this point. Sure, we may get some newcomers along the way. But I think the chase for that wider audience gets harder and harder with every new game simply because of the perception of "it's one for the fans."

I think the only way you have a chance of capturing a mainstream wider audience would be to start from scratch and reboot the whole thing and retool to make it something that would appeal to a mainstream audience. But in doing that, you would lose everything that makes it what it is as it becomes something else. And I don't really want that. I like Shenmue for being Shenmue. I like the pacing of it. I like the fact that it's a calm game that simply asks you to exist in and explore its world. I like that money actually means something in this game. That they try to integrate every system to become meaningful. I like the casual pace of it.

Sure, there are quality of life things it could do to modernize. I actually applaud SIII for taking some of those steps to make it a little more modern feeling to play.

I think, if anything, Shenmue IV is going to resemble Shenmue II a lot more than it will resemble the first game. Much like SIII was very reminiscent of the first game with its small town vibes and take-its-own-time pace. I actually do think IV will pick the pace up and resemble SII more than it will anything else. I think IV will be a much more action packed game considering you're hot on the tails of Lan Di and the Chi You Men and I think it has all the potential to be more like SII. Which would be fine by me. That's really all I want from IV. Pick up the pacing, refine the story telling, flesh out the fighting engine. Just tighten everything up.

But in terms of retooling the game to capture the mainstream? Outside of rebooting the series from scratch and changing everything, I really don't know what else they can do at this point to capture that elusive audience.

I think we're the ones keeping this alive. Sure, it's great to get any newcomers that give it a chance and find something along the way, but getting that wider audience? I still feel its too late for Shenmue and the only way you would get that audience would be to reboot the series as a whole. Like it or not but there's still too much of that dated stigma around Shenmue in the wider audience. Still too much of the "it's one for the fans only" stigma. We saw that with SIII and the reviews that came out. The only way to break that at this point would be to simply reboot the franchise and start over.

I mean I hope SIV can make the fixes it needs and at least get some decent word of mouth, but I just fear its too late and the stigma is gonna always be around Shenmue...so at this point, I stopped caring about that wider audience. Let Shenmue be the Shenmue I love and just accept we love something others don't. Even if that isn't financially responsible.

I just want the series to see its way to the end as we know and love it for what it is. I'd rather it potentially die as its self than die attempting to change and become something else to get an audience that doesn't care for it. Not that I want it to die at all. I think, if they play it smart and keep the budgets down, they can probably get to S5 based on us. There's enough of an audience here to keep it going. Even those who didn't like SIII in this community I can guarantee will return for IV if it comes to be. I just think that chase for the wider audience gets harder as the "only for the fans" stigma around the franchise grows.

 

[9dragons]

I have to agree. Just look at the games that are popular these days. These games have nothing in common with Shenmue. Shenmue has more in common with the old classic point and click adventures of the 90s than with any modern game. These genres lost popularity in the mid 90s already when 3d become a major factor in gaming. Unless the gaming taste changes differently Shenmue will never reach a critical mass. It is unfortunate but that is who things are. Style over substance is THE thing in the gaming industry now.