Shenmue 4. The possible abrupt ending to the series?

[hmjohnny]

I'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make mate. It is a second Shenmue tree. You were wrong about it just being a cherry tree. You not paying attention to the game telling you this doesn't make it untrue.

I mean, it's clearly mentioned in the notebook, and it is absolutely mentioned in a conversation at some point. It's also pretty clearly another Shenmue tree, just looking at it. The moment I saw it I immediately clocked that it was another Shenmue tree. It's almost identical to the one by Shenhua's house, both the in-game model and its depiction on the map. I don't really know what else to tell you.

Upon replay I'll find all of the mentions of it being a Shenmue tree that are in the game and post them here

You may very well be right, I'd like to see the dialogue on this to confirm what they actually say. I may have misremembered the Sakura tree dialogue with another conversation. I also spoke to Shenhua every night and never got any dialogue around the ternary spring tree; though I in no way could have exhausted all the dialogue on my first playthorugh.

That being said, if it is indeed a second Shenmue tree, that is huge. The game can't just brush that aside as nothing. Looking back at the Shenhua baby flashback from S2 it's possible that there are multiple Shenmue trees, and it is a fictional species of tree but the significance of the one outside Shenhua's house seems to be the most important.

To iknifeugood's point, the series is named Shenmue, and as it stands we have no idea why. Ryo is likely never to return to Bailu where the most exposition on the subject could have been revealed. This means there is a good chance we will never know the signifiance of the tree and it may have just been excised from the plot like seemingly many of the other mystical elements of the story.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

You may very well be right, I'd like to see the dialogue on this to confirm what they actually say. I may have misremembered the Sakura tree dialogue with another conversation. I also spoke to Shenhua every night and never got any dialogue around the ternary spring tree; though I in no way could have exhausted all the dialogue on my first playthorugh.

That being said, if it is indeed a second Shenmue tree, that is huge. The game can't just brush that aside as nothing. Looking back at the Shenhua baby flashback from S2 it's possible that there are multiple Shenmue trees, and it is a fictional species of tree but the significance of the one outside Shenhua's house seems to be the most important.

To iknifeugood's point, the series is named Shenmue, and as it stands we have no idea why. Ryo is likely never to return to Bailu where the most exposition on the subject could have been revealed. This means there is a good chance we will never know the signifiance of the tree and it may have just been excised from the plot like seemingly many of the other mystical elements of the story.

Yeah, I don't recall anyone ever calling it a cherry/sakura tree, but I absolutely do remember it being referred to as a Shenmue tree. And again, it's clearly stated in the notebook. It is a Shenmue tree. Regardless of what is said, all you need is a working pair eyes to see that this is the case. The model is literally almost identical in-game, (I think it might actually be identical, sans the patch Iwao punched) and it has the exact same marker on the map. I honestly don't understand how anyone can play the game, see the two, and not immediately make that connection.

I really didn't really think it needed some sort of plodding, hand-holding exposition. I thought the game did a good job of showing you the world and treating the players with respect.

 

[hmjohnny]

I really didn't really think it needed some sort of plodding, hand-holding exposition. I thought the game did a good job of showing you the world and treating the players with respect.

But at some point you have to agree that they need to explain the Shenmue tree? It's the series namesake and they made a pretty big deal out of it at the end of Shenmue 2, implying it was one of a kind and a very special tree. I think that's why people didn't initially pick up on the second one, myself included, because the significance of the tree seemed to be hammered in at the end of Shenmue 2, and not subtlety.

Again I'm fine that there is a second tree, it seems to be the case you as you said, but the fact that we left Bailu with zero exposition on it bothers me. If Shenmue trees are just a rare species of tree that grows in Guilin why name the series after it? I just don't like how the plot was handled and felt this was a big missed opportunity.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

But at some point you have to agree that they need to explain the Shenmue tree?

I think they already did. In Shenmue II Ryo and Shenhua talk quite a bit about how special the tree is, and how they feel it has a spirit, that it protects Shenhua etc. etc. And now in Shenmue III we see that it has a twin that Iwao trained on daily, (and the photo of Iwao and Zhao is obviously taken stood next to that Shenmue tree) clearly indicating its significance to Iwao Hazuki, and now Ryo. The obvious implication being that this tree is for Ryo what its twin is for Shenhua.

The entire Shenmue series is the journey of Ryo and Shenhua, the title of the game is Shenmue, and there is a Shenmue tree that is an important part of Shenhua's life, and a Shenmue tree that is an important part of Hazuki's life. I don't think it needs much more explanation, there's pretty clear threads there that just aren't that hard to follow.

They're just ancient trees that are spiritual, and they're guardians of the two main characters. There's not really much else to it. Personally, I absolutely despise needless exposition. What would even be said? Feng explicitly telling you this, word for word? To me that's very laboured exposition and poor storytelling. I much prefer a story that shows you, rather than beats you over the head with it.

 

[hmjohnny]

Personally, I absolutely despise needless exposition

So do I, but in this case I don't think it would have been needless. In fact, there is no indication the tree is special at all other than the notebook entry, so if it was meant to be important then drawing more attention to it would have been required.

there is a Shenmue tree that is an important part of Shenhua's life, and a Shenmue tree that is an important part of Hazuki's life

I think this is something you inferred that isn't there. Unless there is something (exposition) in the Shenhua dialogues at night that says this, there is nothing in the game indicating that the tree is important for Ryo. In fact in Shenmue 2 he says the tree outside Shenhua's house is watching over him and that he knew that tree for a long time.

Also, why is the tree important to Iwao? because he punched it? The sakura tree outside his dojo has more story significance than that.

They're just ancient trees that are spiritual, and they're guardians of the two main characters. There's not really much else to it.

Strongly disagree. They seemed to hint that the tree is really important and plays a bigger role in the story. Shenhua, one of the main characters, is named after it. Ryo dreams about it when he finds the phoenix mirror, implying they are linked. He says he is drawn to the tree as if he knew it for a long time. It has stood for thousands of years, and the story is named after it! I'm not saying there is a ton more to it, but to say they are just random old trees that are symbolic is a bit reductive of how significant Shenmue has made the Shenmue tree seem.

Shenmue 3 makes this seem like a retcon now, and I'm worried for the future story if that's the case since what drew me to Shenmue was the mysticism, the grander epic narrative, and the mysteries of the mirrors and Shenmue tree.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

So do I, but in this case I don't think it would have been needless. In fact, there is no indication the tree is special at all other than the notebook entry, so if it was meant to be important then drawing more attention to it would have been required.



I think this is something you inferred that isn't there. Unless there is something (exposition) in the Shenhua dialogues at night that says this, there is nothing in the game indicating that the tree is important for Ryo. In fact in Shenmue 2 he says the tree outside Shenhua's house is watching over him and that he knew that tree for a long time.

Also, why is the tree important to Iwao? because he punched it? The sakura tree outside his dojo has more story significance than that.



Strongly disagree. They seemed to hint that the tree is really important and plays a bigger role in the story. Shenhua, one of the main characters, is named after it. Ryo dreams about it when he finds the phoenix mirror, implying they are linked. He says he is drawn to the tree as if he knew it for a long time. It has stood for thousands of years, and the story is named after it! I'm not saying there is a ton more to it, but to say they are just random old trees that are symbolic is a bit reductive of how significant Shenmue has made the Shenmue tree seem.

Shenmue 3 makes this seem like a retcon now, and I'm worried for the future story if that's the case since what drew me to Shenmue was the mysticism, the grander epic narrative, and the mysteries of the mirrors and Shenmue tree.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree mate. I think Shenmue III gets the point across fairly clearly, and I'm glad they've not chosen to spoon-feed us.

 

[hmjohnny]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree mate

Fair enough. Thanks for having a good debate with me on some interesting topics, I like having discussions about the story and theories.

Can I ask you something though? You seemed to like Shenmue 3 based on your other posts, what is it you like Shenmue for? is it the the overall narrative or something else? If it's the narrative and you seem to think these things are more undercurrents to the story then where do you see the story going overall? it can't just be a simple revenge narrative, all the promo material since project Berkeley have hinted at something grander and more mythological.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

Fair enough. Thanks for having a good debate with me on some interesting topics, I like having discussions about the story and theories.

No worries mate, me too. I appreciate it.

Can I ask you something though? You seemed to like Shenmue 3 based on your other posts, what is it you like Shenmue for? is it the the overall narrative or something else? If it's the narrative and you seem to think these things are more undercurrents to the story then where do you see the story going overall?

For sure it's the narrative, but also the general atmosphere. I'm convinced the game is going to take on an intense mystical twist in the final third. As you say, all of the stuff in Project Berkley, the little hints and suggestions throughout Shenmue I, II and now III. I think the Lan Di/revenge arc will be wrapped up somewhere around the 70-80% mark, and I really would not be at all surprised if we actually saw the resurrection of Chi You and the series really went full blown fantasy at the end.

 

[Schmeman]

Maybe Shenmue is just what the people in Bailu call a cherry tree.

 

[iknifaugood]

And now in Shenmue III we see that it has a twin that Iwao trained on daily, (and the photo of Iwao and Zhao is obviously taken stood next to that Shenmue tree) clearly indicating its significance to Iwao Hazuki, and now Ryo. The obvious implication being that this tree is for Ryo what its twin is for Shenhua.

None of that is obvious. I thought the leaf that Ryo has kept since the first game was part of the Shenmue tree but it never came up in this third game. If there were multiple Shenmue trees and that’s just a thing we’re supposed to know, then the game should have made a bigger deal about it. I didn’t even realize it was a thing until I read this forum and I was largely playing the game for the storyline. Burying something this significant (the game is named Shenmue) in the notebook isn’t subtle, it’s bad storytelling.

They're just ancient trees that are spiritual, and they're guardians of the two main characters. There's not really much else to it. Personally, I absolutely despise needless exposition. What would even be said? Feng explicitly telling you this, word for word? To me that's very laboured exposition and poor storytelling. I much prefer a story that shows you, rather than beats you over the head with it.

I could accept this if this was a subtle game. When Ryo and Shenhua first encounter the Shenmue tree in S2, the game makes a point of having an awesome cutscene with epic music to hammer home the point that this is significant. Shenmue 3 even does this with obvious things like the fact that the mirrors have the same pattern as the flags, or that Niao Sun was the random woman who talked to Ryo. Again, for a series called Shenmue, that flash backed to ancient times when first introducing the tree, to not hammer home the fact that there are multiple of said trees or have anyone discuss their significance isn’t subtle, it’s either not important to the plot (doubtful since they named the game after it) or it’s bad storytelling.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

None of that is obvious. I thought the leaf that Ryo has kept since the first game was part of the Shenmue tree but it never came up in this third game. If there were multiple Shenmue trees and that’s just a thing we’re supposed to know, then the game should have made a bigger deal about it. I didn’t even realize it was a thing until I read this forum and I was largely playing the game for the storyline. Burying something this significant (the game is named Shenmue) in the notebook isn’t subtle, it’s bad storytelling.

It is obvious though. The trees are literally identical. You missing it doesn't change that. They didn't bury anything, it's so stunningly clear to anyone with a pair of eyes I'm honestly starting to think I'm having my leg pulled. I cannot fathom how any Shenmue fan could have played the game and not immediately clocked that the tree by Ternary Springs is a Shenmue tree, especially after literally walking past the literally identical one next to Shenhua's house about 5 minutes earlier.

If you need the game to sit you down and show you the two trees side-by-side so that you can see they're the same, that's on you. I would find that insulting, personally.

I could accept this if this was a subtle game. When Ryo and Shenhua first encounter the Shenmue tree in S2, the game makes a point of having an awesome cutscene with epic music to hammer home the point that this is significant. Shenmue 3 even does this with obvious things like the fact that the mirrors have the same pattern as the flags, or that Niao Sun was the random woman who talked to Ryo. Again, for a series called Shenmue, that flash backed to ancient times when first introducing the tree, to not hammer home the fact that there are multiple of said trees or have anyone discuss their significance isn’t subtle, it’s either not important to the plot (doubtful since they named the game after it) or it’s bad storytelling.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes good and bad storytelling. I think if the game sits you down and explains very slowly "these two trees are very special guardians of the two main characters, and you should understand that the one by Shenhua's house is Shenhua's, and the one Iwao trained on is Ryo's," I would call that laborious, tedious exposition for the sake of exposition, and frankly it would insult my intelligence that the game is suggesting I couldn't piece that together for myself. The game makes it very clear in a not even particularly subtle way, imo.

 

[iknifaugood]

It is obvious though. The trees are literally identical. You missing it doesn't change that.

I mean you’re talking about a game that reuses assets like crazy, nearly every house in Bailu village looks identical. Even the two fat guys share the exact same model. Did I notice that the trees look similar? Sure, but the game never explicitly says this (ie: Ryo saying something to the effect of “Shenhua, this looks just like the Shenmue tree” and then she could explain that there are multiple etc.) so I never thought anything of it and I clearly wasn’t the only one, judging by the posts on this forum.

I would find that insulting, personally.

Then did you find all the other instances of the game beating you over the head with information you already knew insulting? I found it very insulting that I had to have things like Chai, Longsun Zhao, and the fact that the mirrors lead to a treasure re explained to me and Ryo acting like he was hearing this for the first time. Yet multiple Shenmue trees is something that only exists in the notebook because of subtlety? Spare me.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes good and bad storytelling. I think if the game sits you down and explains very slowly "these two trees are very special guardians of the two main characters, and you should understand that the one by Shenhua's house is Shenhua's, and the one Iwao trained on is Ryo's," I would call that laborious, tedious exposition for the sake of exposition, and frankly it would insult my intelligence that the game is suggesting I couldn't piece that together for myself. The game makes it very clear in a not even particularly subtle way, imo.

Not “bad storytelling” in general, but bad by the standards of the Shenmue games. Again, this is the game that needs to slowly draw an outline of the Phoenix mirror around a symbol that looks exactly like the Phoenix mirror so Ryo can point out that they’re the same. Things that are “important” in Shenmue games are not relegated to the notebook and skippable conversations, they are underscored with cutscenes and repeated frequently, not saying I prefer that but if the Shenmue tree is important (as I surmise that it is because the game is named after it) then surely the fact that there is more than one would merit a remark from our protagonist in the scene where he’s talking about how his dad used to hit the tree.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

I mean you’re talking about a game that reuses assets like crazy, nearly every house in Bailu village looks identical. Even the two fat guys share the exact same model. Did I notice that the trees look similar? Sure, but the game never explicitly says this (ie: Ryo saying something to the effect of “Shenhua, this looks just like the Shenmue tree” and then she could explain that there are multiple etc.) so I never thought anything of it and I clearly wasn’t the only one, judging by the posts on this forum.

I just don't think the game needed to state that they were identical. You can just see that they are. If the Shenmue tree is special, why on Earth would they just re-use the asset? You saw the exact same asset, and instantly your first thought was "oh, well they never explicitly told me that's a Shenmue tree, so it's probably just a cherry tree lol" (even though they literally did this, in the notebook entry immediately following.)

Especially in the context of Ryo coming across the tree, being told that Iwao trained under it daily, the photo of him with Zhao under the tree being a key part of the story in that moment etc. Maybe it's because I finished Shenmue II right before I started Shenmue III, so all of this was fresh in my mind, but it was painfully obvious what the game was communicating to the player here.

It just did not need explaining, imo, it was bleeding obvious. Players missing that doesn't change the fact that it was obvious. Plenty of people miss themes/threads in games/movies/music all the time. I'm not a fan of laborious exposition for the sake of those people.

Then did you find all the other instances of the game beating you over the head with information you already knew insulting? I found it very insulting that I had to have things like Chai, Longsun Zhao, and the fact that the mirrors lead to a treasure re explained to me and Ryo acting like he was hearing this for the first time. Yet multiple Shenmue trees is something that only exists in the notebook because of subtlety? Spare me.

100% I did. I even constantly would make this joke to my girlfriend, who was sat beside me watching, (she also immediately clocked that it was a 2nd Shenmue tree, and she's only seen me play through Shenmue II once the week before release) when things like this cropped up.

The difference there though is that with Chai, Longsun Zhao, the mirrors etc. I took that sloppy, laborious exposition to be purely for the sake of newcomers to the series, those who were starting from Shenmue III. I do not expect anyone who has played Shenmue I and Shenmue II to miss the fact that the tree in Ternary Springs is obviously a second Shenmue tree. Again, I am utterly shocked that anyone could.

Not “bad storytelling” in general, but bad by the standards of the Shenmue games. Again, this is the game that needs to slowly draw an outline of the Phoenix mirror around a symbol that looks exactly like the Phoenix mirror so Ryo can point out that they’re the same. Things that are “important” in Shenmue games are not relegated to the notebook and skippable conversations, they are underscored with cutscenes and repeated frequently, not saying I prefer that but if the Shenmue tree is important (as I surmise that it is because the game is named after it) then surely the fact that there is more than one would merit a remark from our protagonist in the scene where he’s talking about how his dad used to hit the tree.

I think we got enough exposition on it though. Honestly I don't know how the game could have been clearer without something really lame like having Ryo look at the tree and go "Ugh" and then cut to a flashback from literally 5 minutes ago when you ran past the Shenmue tree outside Shenhua's house or something. Maybe you would have preferred that, but I would consider that tedious, pointless exposition, and frankly just insulting.

 

[iknifaugood]

I just don't think the game needed to state that they were identical. You can just see that they are. If the Shenmue tree is special, why on Earth would they just re-use the asset?

And if the Shenmue tree being just a species of tree that grows in China is special (again, the game is named after them) then why on earth wouldn't they make a big deal of it? Especially because this revelation re contextualizes Shenmue 2 and the flashback to ancient times when Shenhua's name is revealed. I suppose they were flashing to a different tree in a different location, but where? And why?

You saw the exact same asset, and instantly your first thought was "oh, well they never explicitly told me that's a Shenmue tree, so it's probably just a cherry tree lol" (even though they literally did this, in the notebook entry immediately following.)

Yes because again they make a really be deal about it in Shenmue 2, say that it's been around for thousands of years, have a flashback when you first see it, and Ryo and Shenhua both state that they feel a connection to that tree in particular.

Especially in the context of Ryo coming across the tree, being told that Iwao trained under it daily, the photo of him with Zhao under the tree being a key part of the story in that moment etc. Maybe it's because I finished Shenmue II right before I started Shenmue III, so all of this was fresh in my mind, but it was painfully obvious what the game was communicating to the player here.

I also finished Shenmue 2 the day before I started Shenmue 3 and nothing about the scene was obvious since the information we're paying attention to in that scene is about Iwao and Sunming (not that there's much of that). I mean, when we first see the Shenmue tree in S2, did you immediately think that the photo of Iwao and Sunming was taken in front of it? Why wouldn't Ryo comment on that if that were the case?

100% I did. I even constantly would make this joke to my girlfriend

Legendary show.

The difference there though is that with Chai, Longsun Zhao, the mirrors etc. I took that sloppy, laborious exposition to be purely for the sake of newcomers to the series, those who were starting from Shenmue III.

The suggestion that Shenmue 3 is in any way attempting to court new players is a joke, this is probably the most impenetrable game in the franchise in terms of story and gameplay. Not to put too fine a point on it, but no new player playing Shenmue 3 would even know what Shenmue refers to, unless they read the journal. Also, the game never explains who Niao Sun is, or the Chi You Men, or several other important plot points from past games. If it's courting new players then that's extremely bad storytelling and, in a game this starved for important plot details, the fact that there are multiple Shenmue trees is literally one of the only significant pieces of information that players didn't already know.

I think we got enough exposition on it though. Honestly I don't know how the game could have been clearer without something really lame like having Ryo look at the tree and go "Ugh" and then cut to a flashback from literally 5 minutes ago when you ran past the Shenmue tree outside Shenhua's house or something. Maybe you would have preferred that, but I would consider that tedious, pointless exposition, and frankly just insulting.

There wasn't any exposition! Surely you can see the difference between having a five minute cutscene of Shenhua giving redundant information and Ryo merely acknowledging that he's seeing another Shenmue tree. "Shenhua, this tree looks just like the one in your yard, the one you're named after, and the one to which we both instantly feel a special connection." "Lol Ryo that's just one of a whole species of trees, this is also a Shenmue tree but I feel no connection to this one. Fuck every tree except the one in my yard." "I agree Shenhua, I shouldn't have even brought it up, it's so obvious that the tree for which this game is named would be a random fictional species of tree, even though I made a huge deal about the one in your yard." "That's cuz I used to play on the swing on that tree, that's why it's a big deal and no other reason that's been presented thus far. Now that we're leaving Bailu village, let's never speak of it again until we encounter another random Shenmue tree because surprise, they grow all over China, dumbass." "Ya, fuck me for not assuming that, right?"

Or something like that.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

And if the Shenmue tree being just a species of tree that grows in China is special (again, the game is named after them) then why on earth wouldn't they make a big deal of it? Especially because this revelation re contextualizes Shenmue 2 and the flashback to ancient times when Shenhua's name is revealed. I suppose they were flashing to a different tree in a different location, but where? And why?

I mean, it's pretty clear that the trees are special. Again, as I said, the one next to Shenhua's house is her guardian, and the one at Ternary Spring is Ryo's. It's just not that hard to put that together imo. I felt it was obvious.

Yes because again they make a really be deal about it in Shenmue 2, say that it's been around for thousands of years, have a flashback when you first see it, and Ryo and Shenhua both state that they feel a connection to that tree in particular.

Exactly, so they've laid the groundwork on that type of tree being special. When you see an identical one, and that Iwao trained on it daily, how on Earth could you possibly miss what the game is telling you? I just don't think Ryo needed to explicitly state it, because it was obvious.

I also finished Shenmue 2 the day before I started Shenmue 3 and nothing about the scene was obvious since the information we're paying attention to in that scene is about Iwao and Sunming (not that there's much of that). I mean, when we first see the Shenmue tree in S2, did you immediately think that the photo of Iwao and Sunming was taken in front of it? Why wouldn't Ryo comment on that if that were the case?

It might not have been obvious to you, but it was pretty obvious imo. And yes I did think the picture of Iwao & Zhao was taken in front of the one by Shenhua's house, until we see the 2nd one in Shenmue III and are told Iwao trained on it. Then it's pretty obvious that's where that photo was taken.

The suggestion that Shenmue 3 is in any way attempting to court new players is a joke, this is probably the most impenetrable game in the franchise in terms of story and gameplay. Not to put too fine a point on it, but no new player playing Shenmue 3 would even know what Shenmue refers to, unless they read the journal. Also, the game never explains who Niao Sun is, or the Chi You Men, or several other important plot points from past games. If it's courting new players then that's extremely bad storytelling and, in a game this starved for important plot details, the fact that there are multiple Shenmue trees is literally one of the only significant pieces of information that players didn't already know.

It clearly is though, in those specific instances of re-running through information such as the mirrors and Longsun Zhao being Lan Di. Just because it's not holding people's hands 24/7 doesn't mean it isn't gently guiding new players. I don't think it's fair to just say it's bad storytelling because you didn't pick up on certain things.

There wasn't any exposition! Surely you can see the difference between having a five minute cutscene of Shenhua giving redundant information and Ryo merely acknowledging that he's seeing another Shenmue tree. "Shenhua, this tree looks just like the one in your yard, the one you're named after, and the one to which we both instantly feel a special connection." "Lol Ryo that's just one of a whole species of trees, this is also a Shenmue tree but I feel no connection to this one. Fuck every tree except the one in my yard." "I agree Shenhua, I shouldn't have even brought it up, it's so obvious that the tree for which this game is named would be a random fictional species of tree, even though I made a huge deal about the one in your yard." "That's cuz I used to play on the swing on that tree, that's why it's a big deal and no other reason that's been presented thus far. Now that we're leaving Bailu village, let's never speak of it again until we encounter another random Shenmue tree because surprise, they grow all over China, dumbass." "Ya, fuck me for not assuming that, right?"

Or something like that.

There was though. You come across another Shenmue tree. They look at the tree. You are told Iwao trained under it every day, to the point where he wore out a patch of the tree from punching it. A flashback memory of Iwao plays over that patch. Ryo then makes an entry in the notebook about there being a second Shenmue tree.

I just don't think you needed a goofy "oh Shenhua look, this tree is another Shenmue tree! My dad trained here, this one must be mine" type of clunky dialogue to get that point across. Again, I much prefer a story told in a way that respects the players intelligence and shows you rather than tells you.

 

[iknifaugood]

as I said, the one next to Shenhua's house is her guardian, and the one at Ternary Spring is Ryo's

There is absolutely nothing in the game to tie Ryo to the tree at Ternary Spring. Again, he explicitly states that he feels like the Shenmue tree (at Shenhua's house) is protecting him; he says nothing about the one in Ternary Spring, so you determining that it's his "guardian" is head cannon. The only tree that Ryo has been actually shown to have a special connection to is the sakura tree in front of the Hazuki dojo.

When you see an identical one, and that Iwao trained on it daily, how on Earth could you possibly miss what the game is telling you?

Because the game isn't telling me anything? OK so the trees are old and people feel a special connection to them and random ancient parents said that "the Shenmue tree will protect Shenhua". How you were able to extrapolate "the tree is Ryo's guardian" from "Iwao used to punch this tree and Ryo recognized it from a picture" is beyond me.

It might not have been obvious to you, but it was pretty obvious imo. And yes I did think the picture of Iwao & Zhao was taken in front of the one by Shenhua's house, until we see the 2nd one in Shenmue III and are told Iwao trained on it. Then it's pretty obvious that's where that photo was taken.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/shenmue/images/3/35/Iwaobasement.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130118143359

This looks nothing like the Shenmue tree in front of Shenhua's house and nothing like the one in Ternary Spring. It literally looks like a random sakura tree (there's even another one behind it) which is probably why so many people assumed that's what it was. The only reason we know that's where the picture was taken is because Ryo says that's where it was taken, just like how that's the only way we'd be able to know that it's a Shenmue tree.

I don't think it's fair to just say it's bad storytelling because you didn't pick up on certain things.

That's not at all what I said. I said that as a newcomer, you would have no idea what Shenmue refers to, who the Chi You Men are, who Niao Sun is, and a bunch of other things because the game doesn't tell you, meaning that if S3 was designed to court new players and get them caught up with the story, it does a horrible job and thus, bad storytelling.

"oh Shenhua look, this tree is another Shenmue tree! My dad trained here, this one must be mine"

I mean, you're just assuming this is the case. I have no idea why you'd assume that Ryo has any connection to a random tree his dad punched. I'm assuming his dad punched lots of trees throughout his training in China; the significance of it being a Shenmue tree is implied only because they made a big deal about the Shenmue tree in Shenhua's yard and that the game is called Shenmue. You would have no way of inferring that tree is special in any way from the information given to you in S3.

Again, I much prefer a story told in a way that respects the players intelligence and shows you rather than tells you.

So do I, which is why the storytelling in S3 is so abysmal. Shenmue 2 makes a point of underscoring important things like the big dipper, phantom river stone, the Shenmue tree, and Ziming; things that you know are coming back and need to be expanded. Again, it's not a subtle game, if multiple Shenmue trees was important to the story, then they would have made it seem important but, as it stands, it must not be. My issue is not with the "subtlety" with which the information was presented, it's that there is no reason to think it's significant at all. This is the game that takes the time to pause and zoom in on an obvious spider tattoo on a guy's head so Ryo can slowly piece together that he's found the thug with the spider tattoo.

 

[DigitalDuck]

There was though. You come across another Shenmue tree. They look at the tree. You are told Iwao trained under it every day, to the point where he wore out a patch of the tree from punching it. A flashback memory of Iwao plays over that patch. Ryo then makes an entry in the notebook about there being a second Shenmue tree.

Oh, the flashback where it shows Iwao and Ryo training against the tree in the Hazuki residence?

Is that one also a Shenmue tree?

 

[DarksideHazuki]

There is absolutely nothing in the game to tie Ryo to the tree at Ternary Spring. Again, he explicitly states that he feels like the Shenmue tree (at Shenhua's house) is protecting him; he says nothing about the one in Ternary Spring, so you determining that it's his "guardian" is head cannon. The only tree that Ryo has been actually shown to have a special connection to is the sakura tree in front of the Hazuki dojo.

Apart from the patch on the tree Iwao wore out from training on it every day, which is the point the game is beating you over the head with at this point.

Because the game isn't telling me anything? OK so the trees are old and people feel a special connection to them and random ancient parents said that "the Shenmue tree will protect Shenhua". How you were able to extrapolate "the tree is Ryo's guardian" from "Iwao used to punch this tree and Ryo recognized it from a picture" is beyond me.

It is, you just missed it. That's fine, as I said earlier, people miss threads and themes in all sorts of media, all the time.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/shenmue/images/3/35/Iwaobasement.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130118143359

This looks nothing like the Shenmue tree in front of Shenhua's house and nothing like the one in Ternary Spring. It literally looks like a random sakura tree (there's even another one behind it) which is probably why so many people assumed that's what it was. The only reason we know that's where the picture was taken is because Ryo says that's where it was taken, just like how that's the only way we'd be able to know that it's a Shenmue tree.

It's a picture made in 1999. The Shenmue tree by Shenhua's house looks different in Shenmue II and III, they're still the same tree.

Also, they look pretty damn identical to me, actually:
They're both skinnier than the Shenmue tree by Shenhua's house, and they both curve to the right in literally the exact same way, and there are other trees behind them. Feng also says "they both trained here." In the picture they're wearing martial arts training attire. I mean come on, it is absolutely obvious at this point. It's crystal clear that the tree in the photo is the tree at Ternary Spring. Shenhua also notes that the tree protects her. If that combined with the fact that it is almost identical to the Shenmue tree by her house didn't tip you off that it's a Shenmue tree, I don't know what to tell you pal. Twin Shenmue trees, Shenmue is the story of Ryo & Shenhua. I really don't understand how people who have actually played Shenmue are having trouble making this connection.

That's not at all what I said. I said that as a newcomer, you would have no idea what Shenmue refers to, who the Chi You Men are, who Niao Sun is, and a bunch of other things because the game doesn't tell you, meaning that if S3 was designed to court new players and get them caught up with the story, it does a horrible job and thus, bad storytelling.

It's not catching everyone up to speed on everything, there's absolutely no time for that. It's just gently nudging people in the right direction, and dropping little reminders when it comes to things like the mirrors, Longsun Zhao etc. etc. and leaving certain other things open for new and returning players alike to piece together themselves. Again, it's not bad storytelling just because it's not exactly how you'd like it.

I mean, you're just assuming this is the case. I have no idea why you'd assume that Ryo has any connection to a random tree his dad punched. I'm assuming his dad punched lots of trees throughout his training in China; the significance of it being a Shenmue tree is implied only because they made a big deal about the Shenmue tree in Shenhua's yard and that the game is called Shenmue. You would have no way of inferring that tree is special in any way from the information given to you in S3.

You can think what you want, I'm not really fussed mate. The game pretty clearly makes the point, whether you want to see it or not, I'm not bothered.

So do I, which is why the storytelling in S3 is so abysmal. Shenmue 2 makes a point of underscoring important things like the big dipper, phantom river stone, the Shenmue tree, and Ziming; things that you know are coming back and need to be expanded. Again, it's not a subtle game, if multiple Shenmue trees was important to the story, then they would have made it seem important but, as it stands, it must not be. My issue is not with the "subtlety" with which the information was presented, it's that there is no reason to think it's significant at all. This is the game that takes the time to pause and zoom in on an obvious spider tattoo on a guy's head so Ryo can slowly piece together that he's found the thug with the spider tattoo.

Cool, if you don't think it's a Shenmue tree, or that it's not important, that's your prerogative. The game literally tells you it's a Shenmue tree in the notebook, and again, it is bleeding obvious that it is to anyone with a functioning pair of eyes.

Oh, the flashback where it shows Iwao and Ryo training against the tree in the Hazuki residence?

Is that one also a Shenmue tree?

Iwao trained against the Shenmue tree at Ternary Spring, that's why there's a worn-out patch on the bark. I know you said you didn't bother reading the notebook, but at least pay attention to the cut-scenes. It plays a flashback clip of Iwao training at the Hazuki residence because it's a flashback from Ryo's memory of his father, using assets from Shenmue I. The entire point the game is making here is for you the player to make the connection between Iwao Hazuki and this Shenmue tree.

This really isn't difficult stuff.

 

[iknifaugood]

Apart from the patch on the tree Iwao wore out from training on it every day, which is the point the game is beating you over the head with at this point.

You'll have to explain how you arrived at Iwao punching a tree = tree protecting Ryo.

It is, you just missed it. That's fine, as I said earlier, people miss threads and themes in all sorts of media, all the time.

That I missed that it was a Shenmue tree is not the point I'm making. As I said, I can obviously see that they share the same assets but in a game that shares so many assets, I assumed it was nothing special when the game didn't make a big deal about it. Much less that it's "Ryo's guardian". Shenhua says that she feels a connection to that tree, not Ryo so, again, how you arrived at your conclusion is mysterious to me.

They both curve to the right in literally the exact same way, and there are other trees behind them. It's crystal clear that the tree in the photo is the tree at Ternary Spring.

I mean, the tree in the photo is pretty obviously thinner and shorter and there's an identical pink tree behind it (another Shenmue tree?). Though, yes, the game makes it obvious that they are the same tree if not for the mere fact that it's the only pink tree in Bailu Village.

It's not catching everyone up to speed on everything, there's absolutely no time for that. It's just gently nudging people in the right direction, and dropping little reminders when it comes to things like the mirrors, Longsun Zhao etc. etc. and leaving certain other things open for new and returning players alike to piece together themselves. Again, it's not bad storytelling just because it's not exactly how you'd like it.

Right, Chai is super important to the story, which is why Ryo needed to act like he had no idea who he was. The information about Longsun Zhao is repeated twice in S3 and both times Ryo seems surprised, even though he already knows this info from Yuanda Zhu. That's why I consider it bad storytelling: because it's redundant at best, and damn near plot breaking at worst. I mean, is Ryo going to learn it for a fourth time in S4 and act all surprised?

The rest of the storyline is equally poorly told because newcomers would have no idea who the Chi You Men are, or who Niao Sun is and even longtime fans like myself have no idea why they want the mirrors or what they intend to do with the "treasure", or indeed what they think it is, which robs the story of proper stakes. I mean, this is obvious stuff, Raiders of the Lost Ark explains why it would be bad for the Nazis to get the Ark at the beginning of the movie; we're halfway through and still have no idea. Bad storytelling.

Cool, if you don't think it's a Shenmue tree, or that it's not important, that's your prerogative. The game literally tells you it's a Shenmue tree in the notebook, and again, it is bleeding obvious that it is to anyone with a functioning pair of eyes.

I didn't say that at all. I acknowledge that it's a Shenmue tree. My issue is with the fact that we're halfway through the story and it seems not to matter much.

The entire point the game is making here is for you the player to make the connection between Iwao Hazuki and this Shenmue tree.

This really isn't difficult stuff.

Agreed. Which is why you'll have to explain how you made the leap from that to "this tree protects Ryo".

 

[DarksideHazuki]

You'll have to explain how you arrived at Iwao punching a tree = tree protecting Ryo.

Sure. Ryo and Shenhua have previously spoken about how the Shenmue tree by her house feels alive, that it has a spirit and that they feel protected by it, like it's watching over them. Iwao trained at Ternary Spring, and specifically trained under that second Shenmue tree with Zhao Sunming. The game tells us this as we are in conversation with Shenhua, who once again remarks that the tree "protects her." We then see a flashback to Iwao Hazuki in the punched-out section of bark. The game is practically beating us over the head with this tree has an important connection to Iwao Hazuki, and by extension, Ryo. If all you see out of this scene is "Iwao punched a tree lol," then that's your problem right there. The game is telling you something and you're not picking up on it.

All of this in the context of there being twin Shenmue trees, and the entire game being about the journey of two individuals. I really, honestly cannot believe you or anyone else can't grasp the point the game is very, very clearly making.

That I missed that it was a Shenmue tree is not the point I'm making. As I said, I can obviously see that they share the same assets but in a game that shares so many assets, I assumed it was nothing special when the game didn't make a big deal about it. Much less that it's "Ryo's guardian". Shenhua says that she feels a connection to that tree, not Ryo so, again, how you arrived at your conclusion is mysterious to me.

The Shenmue trees are twins, and Shenhua is the one saying she feels protected by it because it's her village that she's grown up in. Ryo previously commented in Shenmue II on how the Shenmue tree by her house makes him feel. It's pretty clear that this pair of Shenmue trees are intertwined with Ryo & Shenhua's destiny, and symbolise their relationship. There's a theme of Shenmue tree = protection, guardianship, and we learn about that second Shenmue tree in the context of it having special meaning to Iwao Hazuki. It's not difficult to put 2 and 2 together.

I mean, the tree in the photo is pretty obviously thinner and shorter and there's an identical pink tree behind it (another Shenmue tree?). Though, yes, the game makes it obvious that they are the same tree if not for the mere fact that it's the only pink tree in Bailu Village.

I mean, it is clearly supposed to be the same tree, regardless of any visual differences from a photo asset made in 1999 and the full realisation of the tree in UE4 in 2019. Even if it wasn't the same tree, that photo is clearly taken in Ternary Spring, where the second Shenmue tree is located, and the game would still therefore be pushing a very strong message that this tree has a strong connection to Iwao Hazuki, and now, Ryo.

Right, Chai is super important to the story, which is why Ryo needed to act like he had no idea who he was. The information about Longsun Zhao is repeated twice in S3 and both times Ryo seems surprised, even though he already knows this info from Yuanda Zhu. That's why I consider it bad storytelling: because it's redundant at best, and damn near plot breaking at worst. I mean, is Ryo going to learn it for a fourth time in S4 and act all surprised?

Yeah, I don't disagree with you here. I wouldn't call it bad storytelling, just pointless, tedious exposition. I don't see why you feel so desperately that the game needed even more of that when it comes to the Shenmue trees though.

The rest of the storyline is equally poorly told because newcomers would have no idea who the Chi You Men are, or who Niao Sun is and even longtime fans like myself have no idea why they want the mirrors or what they intend to do with the "treasure", or indeed what they think it is, which robs the story of proper stakes. I mean, this is obvious stuff, Raiders of the Lost Ark explains why it would be bad for the Nazis to get the Ark at the beginning of the movie; we're halfway through and still have no idea. Bad storytelling.

I mean, you can think it's bad storytelling. We'll have to agree to disagree there. But if you're a long time fan you really should at the very least know that Lan Di is trying to resurrect Chi You:



Master Chen tells you in the first game ffs. As for Niao Sun, she was literally just introduced, and betrayed Lan Di. Why would we know what her plans are? She's clearly being set up as a main villain in Shenmue IV. There are another 3 Shenmue games to follow, we're about 40% of the way through the story. There's plenty of time for all sorts of further exposition and development on that front.

I didn't say that at all. I acknowledge that it's a Shenmue tree. My issue is with the fact that we're halfway through the story and it seems not to matter much.

I'm really curious as to what you want from the game. Do you want the Shenmue trees to come alive and talk to you, and explain some long story about why they're watching Ryo & Shenhua? Maybe uproot themselves and come along for the journey with Ren & Shenhua? It's literally just a simple plot point of ancient mysticism. Some cool-looking, spiritual trees are protecting the games' protagonists in some magical/mystical way. It's no deeper than that.

Agreed. Which is why you'll have to explain how you made the leap from that to "this tree protects Ryo".

Because he and Shenhua say literally exactly that throughout Shenmue II and III. That the Shenmue tree feels alive, has a spirit and is "watching over them." Then a second Shenmue tree is introduced, Ryo is taken aback by its connection to his father, and Shenhua once again reiterates "I've always felt protected here." It's not a complex point the game is making, I have absolutely no idea why you have so much resistance to it. It's like you're willingly ignoring it because you're mad you didn't pick up on it when playing or something.