Shenmue 4. The possible abrupt ending to the series?

[DarksideHazuki]

Obviously. But what's the point in following the breadcrumb trail of where Iwao has been if we aren't going to learn more about him and/or Sunming Zhao along the way?

We learned that Iwao and Zhao Sunming were intimate friends who trained together and exchanged martial arts, and that Iwao very likely did not kill Zhao. That's more than enough at this point in the story to me.

My opinion has nothing to do with yours, I'm fascinated as to why anyone who liked Shenmue 2 could possibly consider this a worthy follow up and you haven't really explained why except to say things like "I like the characters. I like the plot." Why? How is the Niao Sun reveal an example of good storytelling in your estimation?

Yeah you keep challenging my opinion for some reason. You seem more invested in my opinion than I do! I've told you why I like the game and the story. I don't really care what you think about Shenmue III, my opinion or anything, really. I'm not really up for an interrogation mate. You don't like the game, I do. Let's move on.

Citation very much needed.

https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/shenmue-3-sales.2042/page-18#post-74597

It reached:

#1 at Bestbuy
#3 on EGS
#2 SimplyGames
#3 Base.com
#9 Amazon US

Doesn't seem like the sky is falling to me.

I mentioned the plot points that need to be covered for the story to end, those are obviously things that are going to be answered. My question is why you would want that stretched out to 6 games, but if you do then that's fine but don't make it seem like that's "good storytelling". It isn't. If you have nothing more to say on the subject then that's fine, you saying you want a story to drag on longer than it needs to is the same thing as people who say they like the English dub because it's bad. It's entirely lost on me.

I'd like to see as many Shenmue games as Yu Suzuki feels the need to make. Don't tell me what I should or shouldn't consider good or bad storytelling. We disagree on what good/bad storytelling is. That's fine. From what you have suggested you'd have liked to see from Shenmue III, I can tell I would have absolutely despised that version of it. I don't care about your opinion at all, I'm not sure why you care so much for mine. Your opinion of the game is lost on me, the difference is I just don't care about your opinion.

Again, I'll reiterate. I am eternally grateful that Shenmue is in Yu Suzuki's hands and not the fans'.

 

[DigitalDuck]

We learned that Iwao and Zhao Sunming were intimate friends who trained together and exchanged martial arts, and that Iwao very likely did not kill Zhao. That's more than enough at this point in the story to me.

We learned all of that in Shenmue II though...

 

[DarksideHazuki]

We learned all of that in Shenmue II though...

Aside from them knowing each other and the photo, we really didn't. It was mostly speculation and we got confirmation in Shenmue III.

 

[iknifaugood]

We learned that Iwao and Zhao Sunming were intimate friends who trained together and exchanged martial arts, and that Iwao very likely did not kill Zhao.

Literally everything you said is stated outright in this cutscene. I can see why you're fine with not learning more about Iwao and Zhao in Bailu Village. Frankly, I wasn't expecting much more than we got either until we saw their former master alive and well, which is why the repeated information irks me.

Yeah you keep challenging my opinion for some reason. You seem more invested in my opinion than I do! I've told you why I like the game and the story. I don't really care what you think about Shenmue III, my opinion or anything, really. I'm not really up for an interrogation mate. You don't like the game, I do. Let's move on.

As I said, I'm just interested as to why. It's like if someone told me they thought Game of Thrones season 8 was just as good as the earlier seasons.

Doesn't seem like the sky is falling to me.

Hey man, here's hoping. I'll be the first to play it; he's already got my money.

I'd like to see as many Shenmue games as Yu Suzuki feels the need to make. Don't tell me what I should or shouldn't consider good or bad storytelling. We disagree on what good/bad storytelling is. That's fine.

Bad storytelling is bad storytelling. I'm sorry but the way Niao Sun's reveal is handled is bad storytelling, full stop. It's why so many people are already calling it out. Just like, say, the way Game of Thrones ended; there's a way to do those kinds of reveals to make them work and they just didn't do it properly. If we actually get 5-6 games in this series, you will be able to entirely skip the plot of this entry apart from "Ryo hands the Phoenix mirror to Niao Sun (assuming they eventually give her that name) and confronts Lan Di for the first time". For something that comprises around 20% of the overall story, that's simply poorly told.

I am eternally grateful that Shenmue is in Yu Suzuki's hands and not the fans'.

As am I. You seem to think I'm suggesting I could do a better job than him; I'm not. I'd be even more grateful if it were in the hands of someone who I had confidence was a competent storyteller.

 

[DigitalDuck]

Aside from them knowing each other and the photo, we really didn't. It was mostly speculation and we got confirmation in Shenmue III.

Yuanda Zhu literally says all of that in Shenmue II. Maybe you should've been paying attention to the game.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

Literally everything you said is stated outright in this cutscene. I can see why you're fine with not learning more about Iwao and Zhao in Bailu Village. Frankly, I wasn't expecting much more than we got either until we saw their former master alive and well, which is why the repeated information irks me.

That's not true at all. In the scene in Shenmue II we learn that Iwao and Zhao trained together, and that Zhao died, but Zhu has no idea what actually happened. In Shenmue III we learn that Iwao and Zhao were intimate friends who trained together under Grandmaster Feng, that the photo of Iwao is indeed a photo of him and Zhao, that they exchanged martial arts moves with one another, and that their master, Feng, doesn't believe Iwao Hazuki was a man capable of killing anyone.

As I said, I'm just interested as to why. It's like if someone told me they thought Game of Thrones season 8 was just as good as the earlier seasons.

Yeah, I get that, I've given you my reasons but you don't seem satisfied. I'm not here to be interrogated by you. If you don't like the game, that's your problem. I loved it.

Bad storytelling is bad storytelling. I'm sorry but the way Niao Sun's reveal is handled is bad storytelling, full stop. It's why so many people are already calling it out. Just like, say, the way Game of Thrones ended; there's a way to do those kinds of reveals to make them work and they just didn't do it properly. If we actually get 5-6 games in this series, you will be able to entirely skip the plot of this entry apart from "Ryo hands the Phoenix mirror to Niao Sun (assuming they eventually give her that name) and confronts Lan Di for the first time". For something that comprises around 20% of the overall story, that's simply poorly told.

In your opinion. I completely disagree. I thought Niao Sun's reveal was great. I don't care for appeal to popularity arguments. I don't really care what the wider audience thinks to be honest. If all you got from Shenmue III was that Niao Sun takes the mirror and Ryo confronts Lan Di, then that's a real shame and I feel bad for you.

As am I. You seem to think I'm suggesting I could do a better job than him; I'm not. I'd be even more grateful if it were in the hands of someone who I had confidence was a competent storyteller.

I'm saying that the fans' suggestions I've read on here, including yours, are all laughably bad imo, and that would have made for a Shenmue III in which our roles would be reversed. I'd be very sour on it. Thankfully it isn't, and it was made by Yu Suzuki, and I very much look forward to what he lays out in Shenmue IV.

Yuanda Zhu literally says all of that in Shenmue II. Maybe you should've been paying attention to the game.

He doesn't though, he says Iwao and Zhao trained together, and that Zhao died but he doesn't know what actually happened.

I mean, you're misremembering scenes from Shenmue II and adding in exposition that wasn't there, you didn't even clock the second Shenmue tree, you didn't see that Iwao trained on that tree and you didn't bother to read the notebook. I think it's you that should be paying more attention mate. The scene's linked above if you want to give it another watch.

 

[DigitalDuck]

He doesn't though, he says Iwao and Zhao trained together, and that Zhao died but he doesn't know what actually happened.

It's pretty obvious to everyone else mate. It's not a complex point the game was making. I don't know what to tell you. Sounds like you're just mad that you didn't pick up on it when playing or something.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

It's pretty obvious to everyone else mate. It's not a complex point the game was making. I don't know what to tell you. Sounds like you're just mad that you didn't pick up on it when playing or something.

But he literally doesn't say those things in the scene. Watch it. All that is revealed is that Iwao and Zhao knew each other, and they practiced martial arts together. In Shenmue III we find out that they were very close friends, exchanged moves, trained under the same master in Bailu, that Zhao is the man in the photo with Iwao and that Feng feels that Iwao wasn't a man capable of killing.

This isn't a theme or story thread that is interwoven into the story as subtext like the Shenmue trees, these are just specific facts pertaining to the story, so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.

As an aside, I'm not sure what I did you annoy you and cause you to throw this childish little little hissy fit. Is it because I corrected you earlier and now you're embarrassed or something? You didn't clock that it was a second Shenmue tree in Ternary Spring, then doubled down on that saying it must be a mistranslation in the notebook (that you didn't bother to read) lol. It's not my fault you don't pay attention to the games you play, I'm just pointing out that you were wrong. If you have a problem with me, let's hop on the discord voice channel and hash it out. I'm not a fan of childish sniping on the forums.

 

[iknifaugood]

That's not true at all. In the scene in Shenmue II we learn that Iwao and Zhao trained together, and that Zhao died, but Zhu has no idea what actually happened. In Shenmue III we learn that Iwao and Zhao were intimate friends who trained together under Grandmaster Feng, that the photo of Iwao is indeed a photo of him and Zhao, that they exchanged martial arts moves with one another, and that their master, Feng, doesn't believe Iwao Hazuki was a man capable of killing anyone.

I mean, you're the one arguing before about not wanting exposition spoon fed to you...

Sunming Zhao and Yuanda Zhu were best friends, he says that the thought of Lan Di killing Iwao at the idea of Iwao murdering Sunming was fate being cruel and that he would also like to believe that Iwao didn't murder him, but he can't say for sure. This is simply everything Grandmaster Feng says in different words unless you really needed it spelled out to you that Iwao and Sunming were in fact friends who studied martial arts (as if the picture of two revered martial artists bro-hugging in martial arts outfits in a martial arts village wasn't enough).

To reiterate, the NEW information Shenmue 3 gives us on the subject is that the man in the picture was Sunming Zhao (something that was fairly obvious in the first game) and you don't find that out until the end of the game where Ryo is still surprised that Sunming Zhao is Lan Di's father for some reason.

I thought Niao Sun's reveal was great. I don't care for appeal to popularity arguments.

That's not an appeal to popularity. Learning that a character with no name is really different character with no name with red hair isn't "great". It isn't much of anything really. And it's especially not much of anything if you weren't prepared for Niao Sun to be in this game. That's why when it's done properly in other stories (say, The Usual Suspects for instance), we know something about both characters and the twist makes sense. Pointing out that it didn't work for many people is just icing on the cake.

If all you got from Shenmue III was that Niao Sun takes the mirror and Ryo confronts Lan Di, then that's a real shame and I feel bad for you.

If you got more from Shenmue 3's plot than that then I'm jealous of you and you've done a poor job articulating what that is.

I'm saying that the fans' suggestions I've read on here, including yours, are all laughably bad imo, and that would have made for a Shenmue III in which our roles would be reversed.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting I've suggested. The only thing I've said is that I wanted more information. I have no desire for the story to be what I want it to be, but it should be told in a way that makes sense and justifies its length. There's a reason an episode of Seinfeld is 30 minutes and not 4 hours. If you're going to take 2 chapters of your 11 chapter story to have your main character forget things he learned in the previous chapters just so he can re-learn that information and end up in essentially the same place that he started, then you're doing storytelling wrong.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

I mean, you're the one arguing before about not wanting exposition spoon fed to you...

Sunming Zhao and Yuanda Zhu were best friends, he says that the thought of Lan Di killing Iwao at the thought of Iwao murdering Sunming was fate being cruel and that he would also like to believe that Iwao didn't murder him, but he can't say for sure. This is simply everything Grandmaster Feng says in different words unless you really needed it spelled out to you that Iwao and Sunming were in fact friends who studied martial arts (as if the picture of two revered martial artists bro-hugging in martial arts outfits in a martial arts village wasn't enough).

To reiterate, the NEW information Shenmue 3 gives us on the subject is that the man in the picture was Sunming Zhao (something that was fairly obvious in the first game) and you don't find that out until the end of the game where Ryo is still surprised that Sunming Zhao is Lan Di's father for some reason.

Yeah, there's a difference between the game stating facts about characters and their relationships, and the game outright stating the mystic themes that are woven throughout its story. In Shenmue II the extent of what we know is that Iwao and Zhao knew each other, and trained together in Bailu. And that Zhao died, and Iwao was accused of his murder. That is literally it. Then in Shenmue III we find out that Iwao and Zhao were close friends, that they trained together under Grandmaster Feng, that they exchanged martial arts moves with one another, that Zhao is the man in the photo with Iwao and that Grandmaster Feng didn't feel that Iwao was capable of murder.

That's a good amount of exposition to me, and seems just about the right amount of confirmation of previous speculation and revelation of new information at this point in the story.

That's not an appeal to popularity. Learning that a character with no name is really different character with no name with red hair isn't "great". It isn't much of anything really. And it's especially not much of anything if you weren't prepared for Niao Sun to be in this game. That's why when it's done properly in other stories (say, The Usual Suspects for instance), we know something about both characters and the twist makes sense. Pointing out that it didn't work for many people is just icing on the cake.

It literally is an appeal to popularity. Saying "it's why so many people are already calling it out" is literally an appeal to popularity lol.

You might not have liked the reveal of Niao Sun, that's great, I don't care. I like it. I thought it was great. We can go back and forth on this all day if you like. You didn't like the story and are very interested in my opinion, I really liked the story and don't really care for yours. There's not much more to be said.

If you got more from Shenmue 3's plot than that then I'm jealous of you and you've done a poor job articulating what that is.

Cool. I've clearly stated what I've gotten from the story and why I enjoyed it. It's a shame you can't see that, but again, I don't care about your opinion on Shenmue III or your opinion on my articulation. Jog on pal.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting I've suggested. The only thing I've said is that I wanted more information. I have no desire for the story to be what I want it to be, but it should be told in a way that makes sense and justifies its length. There's a reason an episode of Seinfeld is 30 minutes and not 4 hours. If you're going to take 2 chapters of your 11 chapter story to have your main character forget things he learned in the previous chapters just so he can re-learn that information and end up in essentially the same place that he started, then you're doing storytelling wrong.

I don't care what you're not sure about lol. You mentioned information you'd have liked the game to reveal, and I think the ideas you presented were terrible, personally. And again, I don't care what you consider good or bad storytelling. From those suggestions I'm sure I would have hated the kind of Shenmue III that you would have enjoyed. It's okay to disagree, it's no bother for me. I'm not trying to justify my opinion of the game to you. I enjoyed Shenmue III enormously. It's a shame you didn't, but at the end of the day your enjoyment of a video game means literally less than nothing to me.

 

[Try Asking Sumiya San]

Why can’t you just accept someone likes shenmue 3 ? He is not saying you can’t believe what you believe honestly !

 

[DigitalDuck]

As an aside, I'm not sure what I did you annoy you and cause you to throw this childish little little hissy fit.

Funny how it's a childish little hissy fit when I say it, but not when you say it. Hmmmm.

Also you're not a fan of clunky exposition, but needed to be explicitly told that Iwao and Sunming were close despite being told they trained together and having a photo of them almost hugging.

And yet, the existence of a tree in Ternary Springs automatically means it's Ryo's spirit guardian despite the fact that the game never mentions this, and anyone who doesn't know this is OBVIOUSLY not paying attention to the game and clearly not at your 400 IQ.

Is it because I corrected you earlier and now you're embarrassed or something? You didn't clock that it was a second Shenmue tree in Ternary Spring, then doubled down on that saying it must be a mistranslation in the notebook (that you didn't bother to read) lol.

See, you can't even read.

I never said it must be a mistranslation in the notebook, I said it seems much closer to that than any bullshit fanwank about the tree being Ryo's special spirit friend, that there's really nothing special about it.

As an aside, I'm not sure what I did you annoy you and cause you to throw this childish little little hissy fit. [...] I'm not a fan of childish sniping on the forums.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

You realise that literally everything there was quoted from you, right?

It's literally your childish sniping. That you're not a fan of. That you've been doing throughout this whole thread. Hell, you're still doing it even in this post I'm quoting!

Grow some self-awareness and lose the hypocrisy.

 

[iknifaugood]

Yeah, there's a difference between the game stating facts about characters and their relationships, and the game outright stating the mystic themes that are woven throughout its story.

Right, so the game spoon feeding you that Sunming and Iwao trained together in addition to the picture of them training together is good, but if the game were to remark that there are multiple shenmue trees (something even you missed because you thought there were only two), that's bad. K.

hen in Shenmue III we find out that Iwao and Zhao were close friends

That's actually never stated.


See? I can put the dunce cap on too. Grandmaster Feng never says they're friends, just that they trained together. So I guess when we meet another person who knew Iwao in S4 he can confirm that Sunming Zhao and Iwao were in fact friends and you can pretend that that's storytelling excellence. Tell me, seriously, why do you think Sunming and Iwao are friends if it isn't a fact that's been outright stated by the game?

It literally is an appeal to popularity. Saying "it's why so many people are already calling it out" is literally an appeal to popularity lol.

As I pointed out, an unnamed character we don't know being a different unnamed character we don't know is bad storytelling. That's the argument. You think it's good for some reason that you can't articulate. Pointing out that people don't like it has nothing to do with why it's bad storytelling, it's just an additional piece of information.

You mentioned information you'd have liked the game to reveal, and I think the ideas you presented were terrible, personally.

What ideas? I want the game to explain more. Suzuki took the time to put the master who trained Iwao and Sunming in the game and then gave him nothing of importance to say. Either take him out or give him something insightful to say. I don't see what "terrible" ideas I'm presenting.

Why can’t you just accept someone likes shenmue 3 ? He is not saying you can’t believe what you believe honestly !

Lol I'm not not accepting it, I'm just trying to figure out why he thinks S3 is an example of a good story, well told. I'll stop.

 

[darksniper]

It's pretty clear that it's time for Lan Di to step up to the stand and finally speak.

A lot of this back and forth wouldn't even exist if Ryo bothered to ask Lan Di himself the question of why he killed Iwao during their confrontation at the end.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

Funny how it's a childish little hissy fit when I say it, but not when you say it. Hmmmm.

I mean, you were wrong and I pointed that out. Then you come back days later, and write childish little snipes at me in a similar manner to me correcting you. Yeah, that's a childish little hissy fit. Grow up.

Also you're not a fan of clunky exposition, but needed to be explicitly told that Iwao and Sunming were close despite being told they trained together and having a photo of them almost hugging.

Well we didn't know that was a photo of Zhao. We'd speculated, but we got confirmation in III. I don't think Feng looking at the photo whilst talking about Iwao, confirming that it is Zhao and that they trained together is clunky exposition, but you're entitled to your opinion.

And yet, the existence of a tree in Ternary Springs automatically means it's Ryo's spirit guardian despite the fact that the game never mentions this, and anyone who doesn't know this is OBVIOUSLY not paying attention to the game and clearly not at your 400 IQ.

A Shenmue tree. You really should pay attention to the cut scenes and read the notebook. Ryo and Shenhua both mention they feel like Shenmue trees are alive, have spirits and protect them throughout Shenmue II and III. I know you're embarrassed that you were wrong, but lashing out at me like this is really, really childish. Come on, knock it off.

See, you can't even read.

I never said it must be a mistranslation in the notebook, I said it seems much closer to that than any bullshit fanwank about the tree being Ryo's special spirit friend, that there's really nothing special about it.

I mean, I can obviously read. There's no need for dorky insults just because you're upset at me. Calm down. In an earlier post you said that it must be a "notebook error," I charitably interpreted that to mean a mistranslation seeing as the translation is kinda wonky throughout, but if you think it's an outright oversight, cool.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

You realise that literally everything there was quoted from you, right?

It's literally your childish sniping. That you're not a fan of. That you've been doing throughout this whole thread. Hell, you're still doing it even in this post I'm quoting!

Grow some self-awareness and lose the hypocrisy.

No, you quoting back to me my own words in a condescending manner because you're embarrassed and upset about being corrected is childish sniping. I simply corrected you and you're having an emotional meltdown, hurling insults at me.

I'll do as I like thanks pal, if you don't like it, that's your problem. The irony of you telling me to grow some self-awareness is amazing. You're one of the most petty, needlessly aggressive, overly-sensitive and argumentative users on the dojo. If you want to lose your shit at me because you can't follow the story of a computer game, go ahead lmao.

Right, so the game spoon feeding you that Sunming and Iwao trained together in addition to the picture of them training together is good, but if the game were to remark that there are multiple shenmue trees (something even you missed because you thought there were only two), that's bad. K.

I don't think that's spoon-feeding though. We disagree. No problem. I don't think we needed Ryo or Shenhua to explicitly state that tree in Ternary Spring is a Shenmue tree, no. The Shenmue tree in the flashback is never referred to as a Shenmue tree, even in the notebook, yet we both know that it is one so you've completely undermined your own point there.

That's actually never stated.


See? I can put the dunce cap on too. Grandmaster Feng never says they're friends, just that they trained together. So I guess when we meet another person who knew Iwao in S4 he can confirm that Sunming Zhao and Iwao were in fact friends and you can pretend that that's storytelling excellence. Tell me, seriously, why do you think Sunming and Iwao are friends if it isn't a fact that's been outright stated by the game?

We learn that the man in the photo is Zhao. It's clear that the men in the photo are friends. Just because we speculated that it was Zhao Sunming doesn't change the fact that Shenmue III actually does confirm that. And it confirms their friendship in a subtle way, which is my entire point so I'm not sure where you think you're tripping me up lol, you're making my points for me.

As I pointed out, an unnamed character we don't know being a different unnamed character we don't know is bad storytelling. That's the argument. You think it's good for some reason that you can't articulate. Pointing out that people don't like it has nothing to do with why it's bad storytelling, it's just an additional piece of information.

In your opinion. I disagree. I loved the reveal. I've explained what I like about Shenmue III and why. I'm not really interested in justifying that to you.

What ideas? I want the game to explain more. Suzuki took the time to put the master who trained Iwao and Sunming in the game and then gave him nothing of importance to say. Either take him out or give him something insightful to say. I don't see what "terrible" ideas I'm presenting.

https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/shenmue-4-the-possible-abrupt-ending-to-the-series.2082/page-3#post-73924

These ideas. Personally, to me, those are cringey and embarrassing and something I'd have hated to see. But again, you're entitled to your views, and I'm entitled to mine. I like what we got in Shenmue III.

Lol I'm not not accepting it, I'm just trying to figure out why he thinks S3 is an example of a good story, well told. I'll stop.

I mean, you keep shitting on at me to explain what I like about Shenmue III and why, despite the fact that I've explained precisely that here and elsewhere multiple times. It does seem like you cannot accept someone disagreeing with you. I'm really not sure why you're so invested in my opinion lol.

 

[DigitalDuck]

I mean, you were wrong and I pointed that out. Then you come back days later, and write childish little snipes at me in a similar manner to me correcting you. Yeah, that's a childish little hissy fit. Grow up.

Multiple people corrected me, and have done lots of times in the past too. Why am I not having "childish hissy fits" over anyone else? Maybe it's not about that at all? Maybe it's about your awful attitude in every single post in this thread?

Nah, obviously it's because I made a mistake over a tree.

You really should pay attention to the cut scenes and read the notebook.

Oh look, another childish snipe.

I know you're embarrassed that you were wrong, but lashing out at me like this is really, really childish.

Oh look, another childish snipe.

I mean, I can obviously read. There's no need for dorky insults just because you're upset at me. Calm down.

And yet you do this in EVERY SINGLE POST.

No, you quoting back to me my own words in a condescending manner because you're embarrassed and upset about being corrected is childish sniping. I simply corrected you and you're having an emotional meltdown, hurling insults at me.

Oh look, more childish snipes.

No, I'm not "embarrassed and upset about being corrected", nor am I having an emotional meltdown, nor am I hurling insults at you. What insults have I hurled at you?

I've been corrected multiple times on this forum, and I've usually thanked the person for doing so. Too lazy to find examples, but one time I remember: I said that the kitten meows despite not being there on your last free day in Shenmue. I was fairly quickly rebuffed when it was pointed out that the kitten is there, on top of the gate, and gave a like and admitted my mistake. There have been other instances too.

Once again, it's not about that at all.

You, on the other hand, have been incredibly condescending towards everyone who disagrees with your little fanwank in every single post you make. Telling them that because they don't see that the tree in Ternary Spring is so obviously Ryo's counterpart to Shenhua's tree in her house that they're either not paying attention to the game or just too stupid to understand and need to be beaten over the head with exposition, and must just be mad because they didn't connect the dots themselves...

I'm quoting your own words back to you, and it's "hurling insults at you"? Hmmmm...

It sounds like you're mad because you've finally been called out on your hypocrisy, so you're flinging false accusations of childishness at me. Ironically accompanied with the childish snipes you claim to not be a fan of.

 

[iknifaugood]

We learn that the man in the photo is Zhao. It's clear that the men in the photo are friends. Just because we speculated that it was Zhao Sunming doesn't change the fact that Shenmue III actually does confirm that. And it confirms their friendship in a subtle way, which is my entire point so I'm not sure where you think you're tripping me up lol, you're making my points for me.

Yes. That's the only NEW piece of information in S3. That's it. The foundation for why you think they're friends was laid in the first 2 games (quite masterfully, I might add), so zero credit goes to S3 in this regard. I'm not trying to trip you up, merely pointing out that if in S4 someone declares that they're friends and it's treated as a big reveal I will once again consider that to be insufficient information and sarcastically stating that you would think it's great storytelling.

These ideas. Personally, to me, those are cringey and embarrassing and something I'd have hated to see. But again, you're entitled to your views, and I'm entitled to mine. I like what we got in Shenmue III.

If what you're referring to is "who was the better fighter? Was one of them angry or jealous? How long had they been training there? How well did they know each other when that picture was taken? Literally anything we didn't already know!" the point of that is LITERALLY ANYTHING WE DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW. What were they like? What were their personalities? You know how in Game of Thrones Rheagar Targaryen is initially presented as a rapist but then we find out from other people who knew him that he was a hunky romantic and it's gradually revealed what actually happened from multiple sources? That kind of thing. I wasn't literally making suggestions, simply asking for more information.

I mean, you keep shitting on at me to explain what I like about Shenmue III and why, despite the fact that I've explained precisely that here and elsewhere multiple times. It does seem like you cannot accept someone disagreeing with you. I'm really not sure why you're so invested in my opinion lol.

You seem smart and you like Shenmue 1 and 2 and consider this a worthy follow up after 18 years. I was just wondering why but as I said, I'll stop.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

Multiple people corrected me, and have done lots of times in the past too. Why am I not having "childish hissy fits" over anyone else? Maybe it's not about that at all? Maybe it's about your awful attitude in every single post in this thread?

Nah, obviously it's because I made a mistake over a tree.

I don't know mate, only you know why I've pissed you off so much that you're doing this. If you feel like I've insulted you, or that I have an "awful attitude" because I corrected you over something in a computer game, that's on you. It wasn't my intention to insult or offend you, but you seem to have taken it very personally for some reason.

Oh look, another childish snipe.



Oh look, another childish snipe.



And yet you do this in EVERY SINGLE POST.



Oh look, more childish snipes.

Yes, if you're going to constantly dig me out and insult me because I corrected you, I'm going to respond in kind. Shocker.

No, I'm not "embarrassed and upset about being corrected", nor am I having an emotional meltdown, nor am I hurling insults at you. What insults have I hurled at you?

You've just said I can't read. You've said that me pointing out the fact that the Shenmue trees watch over and protect Ryo & Shenhua is "fanwank," (despite this literally being stated in the game, lol). You've just told me I lack self-awareness and called me a hypocrite. Those are all insults. I'm not particularly insulted, mind, because it's really just projection from you because you're embarrassed and insulted that I dared to correct you.

I've been corrected multiple times on this forum, and I've usually thanked the person for doing so. Too lazy to find examples, but one time I remember: I said that the kitten meows despite not being there on your last free day in Shenmue. I was fairly quickly rebuffed when it was pointed out that the kitten is there, on top of the gate, and gave a like and admitted my mistake. There have been other instances too.

Once again, it's not about that at all.

Cool. I don't particularly care how you are with other users on the forum. You clearly have a problem with me, and how you're trying to address it is just silly and childish. If you want to insult me, and continuously throw annoying, passive-aggressive digs my way, you can expect the exact same thing back. If you want to wipe the slate clean and start over, that's cool with me too.

You, on the other hand, have been incredibly condescending towards everyone who disagrees with your little fanwank in every single post you make. Telling them that because they don't see that the tree in Ternary Spring is so obviously Ryo's counterpart to Shenhua's tree in her house that they're either not paying attention to the game or just too stupid to understand and need to be beaten over the head with exposition, and must just be mad because they didn't connect the dots themselves...

I mean, there is a Shenmue tree in Ternary Spring. Shenhua says it protects her, Ryo notes down that it is a Shenmue tree in the notebook, and it's clearly a Shenmue tree just by looking at it. I didn't say you were stupid because you didn't pick up on that, you're just making shit up now. I said I don't see how anyone would miss that, especially when it's written in the notebook. I can't make you read the notebook or pay attention to the cut scenes mate.

I wasn't trying to be condescending, but if that's how you took it, that's on you.

I'm quoting your own words back to you, and it's "hurling insults at you"? Hmmmm...

I mean, you're clearly doing it to be snarky and insulting, yeah. You are also literally insulting me because you're so upset with my attitude, apparently.

It sounds like you're mad because you've finally been called out on your hypocrisy, so you're flinging false accusations of childishness at me. Ironically accompanied with the childish snipes you claim to not be a fan of.

I'm not mad though, and I've not been hypocritical so whatever you think you're calling me out on only exists in your head. You're being really childish and petty because I dared to correct you on something you clearly had wrong.

Like I say, I'd be more than happy to just wipe the slate clean and start over, or you can just block me. Either way.

Yes. That's the only NEW piece of information in S3. That's it. The foundation for why you think they're friends was laid in the first 2 games (quite masterfully, I might add), so zero credit goes to S3 in this regard. I'm not trying to trip you up, merely pointing out that if in S4 someone declares that they're friends and it's treated as a big reveal I will once again consider that to be insufficient information and sarcastically stating that you would think it's great storytelling.

Yeah and for me, that's enough. A small elaboration on what we learned in Shenmue II, confirmation of some of it, and an introduction of Grandmaster Feng. For me, that's perfect.

If what you're referring to is "who was the better fighter? Was one of them angry or jealous? How long had they been training there? How well did they know each other when that picture was taken? Literally anything we didn't already know!" the point of that is LITERALLY ANYTHING WE DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW. What were they like? What were their personalities? You know how in Game of Thrones Rheagar Targaryen is initially presented as a rapist but then we find out from other people who knew him that he was a hunky romantic and it's gradually revealed what actually happened from multiple sources? That kind of thing. I wasn't literally making suggestions, simply asking for more information.

Yeah fair enough, if we had gotten more information I don't think I'd be complaining, but it obviously depends on what it would be and how it was presented. The idea of Feng sitting you down and telling you who was harder was just weird and way too anime to me. I get it though, you wanted a bit more, I thought it was just enough.

You seem smart and you like Shenmue 1 and 2 and consider this a worthy follow up after 18 years. I was just wondering why but as I said, I'll stop.

I mean I have laid it out in various threads. I just think the relationship building with Shenhua is great, the new environments are great, the side characters are all very "Shenmue" to me. I love the pace & direction of the story. I'm not saying it's objectively brilliant storytelling and everyone must like it, but for me, it just hit the spot. I don't know what else I can say.

 

[DigitalDuck]

If you feel like I've insulted you, or that I have an "awful attitude" because I corrected you over something in a computer game, that's on you.

I've already explained how you have an awful attitude. See the whole list of quoting your posts from the first three pages below.

Yes, if you're going to constantly dig me out and insult me because I corrected you, I'm going to respond in kind. Shocker.

You responded in kind... to other people, over the last few days?

You've just said I can't read. You've said that me pointing out the fact that the Shenmue trees watch over and protect Ryo & Shenhua is "fanwank," (despite this literally being stated in the game, lol). You've just told me I lack self-awareness and called me a hypocrite. Those are all insults.

You've said I, and others, haven't been paying attention to the game. You've insuinuated other people are stupid. You have been much more insulting than me the entire time. Hence, lacking self-awareness. Hence, hypocrite.

I didn't say that you pointing out Shenmue trees watching over and protecting Ryo & Shenhua is fanwank, you literally, explicitly, and repeatedly said that the Ternary Sping tree is "Ryo's tree", that the two together specifically refer to Ryo and Shenhua, and that the game makes this completely obvious to anyone who was paying attention. Which is fanwank. Again, reading.

I didn't say you were stupid because you didn't pick up on that, you're just making shit up now.

You repeatedly claimed that if the game had, in any way, indicated that there was anything special about the Ternary Spring tree beyond "oh look here it is" that it would completely insult your intelligence, because you've already figured it all out because it's obvious. That's by proxy calling those who didn't pick up on that stupid. Again, see your posts below.

I don't particularly care how you are with other users on the forum.

Well, it'd imply that the problem isn't me...

You clearly have a problem with me, and how you're trying to address it is just silly and childish. If you want to insult me, and continuously throw annoying, passive-aggressive digs my way, you can expect the exact same thing back.

I'm continuously throwing annoying, passive-aggressive digs your way?

Here's some snippets from your posts:

You not paying attention to the game telling you this doesn't make it untrue.

I think if the game sits you down and explains very slowly "these two trees are very special guardians of the two main characters, and you should understand that the one by Shenhua's house is Shenhua's, and the one Iwao trained on is Ryo's," I would call that laborious, tedious exposition for the sake of exposition, and frankly it would insult my intelligence that the game is suggesting I couldn't piece that together for myself.

Maybe you would have preferred that, but I would consider that tedious, pointless exposition, and frankly just insulting.

Again, I much prefer a story told in a way that respects the players intelligence and shows you rather than tells you.

I know you said you didn't bother reading the notebook, but at least pay attention to the cut-scenes.

This really isn't difficult stuff.

It's not difficult to put 2 and 2 together.

It's not a complex point the game is making, I have absolutely no idea why you have so much resistance to it. It's like you're willingly ignoring it because you're mad you didn't pick up on it when playing or something.

I'm glad the story is in Yu's hands and not the fans'.

You have consistently, constantly, unwaveringly been condescending and insulting to anyone in this thread who dared disagree with you. Everything, EVERYTHING you accuse me of doing you have already done in this thread.

I won't block you. I actually don't want to be on a forum where your vile behaviour is considered acceptable, so I'll take my leave. I don't give a shit anymore, I've had it with this place.

You are a hypocritical, insulting, pretentious, condescending bully. Go fuck yourself.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

I've already explained how you have an awful attitude. See the whole list of quoting your posts from the first three pages below.

Right, and your way of dealing with what you perceive is my "awful attitude" is to constantly reply to my posts, in the most snivelling, snide, most obnoxiously passive-aggresive manner, and then dish out a tidal wave of abuse and insults. And not, say, PM me with "hey pal, I feel like you're being rather condescending. I didn't notice something in the game, and you're coming on a bit strong and making me feel stupid. Chill out."

You responded in kind... to other people, over the last few days?

I responded to you. If someone's snarky with me, I'll be snarky back. Respect is earned pal.

You've said I, and others, haven't been paying attention to the game. You've insuinuated other people are stupid. You have been much more insulting than me the entire time. Hence, lacking self-awareness. Hence, hypocrite.

I've said you haven't been paying attention to the game because you have continually stated you've missed things that are in the cut scenes, and you yourself told me you "haven't paid attention to the notebook." If you've taken offense to me saying "yeah, you should probably pay attention" when you assert something about the game that is clearly incorrect, then again, that is on you.

Not once have I called you or anyone else stupid, and any insinuation you feel I've made is solely bouncing around your head. In fact when I was saying "I can't believe people missed the second Shenmue tree!" it was in a fun-pokey, jovial manner. Like, I can't believe you guys didn't catch that, it was awesome! And then you come at me with some seriously bitter, nasty energy out of absolutely nowhere and I put you in your place. Now you've got the hump. Oh well.

Nobody else pissed their pants and had a little shitfit pal. Hmmmmm.

I didn't say that you pointing out Shenmue trees watching over and protecting Ryo & Shenhua is fanwank, you literally, explicitly, and repeatedly said that the Ternary Sping tree is "Ryo's tree", that the two together specifically refer to Ryo and Shenhua, and that the game makes this completely obvious to anyone who was paying attention. Which is fanwank. Again, reading.

I've said that the Shenmue trees watch over and protect Ryo & Shenhua, and that the tree by Shenhua's house has a connection to her (she states this), and the tree at Ternary Spring has a connection to Ryo (Ryo has flashbacks of his father when he touches it, before Iwao is ever brought up); but it's all connected. The Shenmue trees are special to Ryo & Shenhua. The former is outright stated in Shenmue II and III, and the latter is what I believe to be a pretty clear interpretation of the mystic symbolism the game is presenting here.

I don't really care if you agree with that or not. All I did was correct you on the fact that the tree in Ternary Spring is a Shenmue tree, and you've flown off the handle with snarky, sarcastic comments, condescending bullshit and outright insults. I also love how you see absolutely no irony in your behaviour here, and you have the cheek to call me a hypocrite. Astonishing lack of self-awareness. All of your insulting tripe is pure projection.

You repeatedly claimed that if the game had, in any way, indicated that there was anything special about the Ternary Spring tree beyond "oh look here it is" that it would completely insult your intelligence, because you've already figured it all out because it's obvious. That's by proxy calling those who didn't pick up on that stupid. Again, see your posts below.

No, I didn't. I didn't once call anyone stupid, nor did I insinuate anyone who missed it was stupid. Any feeling you have of that kind is purely invented by you, and only exists in your head. I even said that plenty of people miss threads and themes in stories and media all the time. Nobody is going to pick up on absolutely every point in absolutely everything. I was a little bit incredulous when you still insisted that it was just a cherry tree, even after being corrected, but I still never called you stupid. Stop making shit up and pretending you're a victim of some horrendous insult because I simply corrected you and it bruised your ego. It's pathetic.

All I said was I feel that it didn't need to be stated outright, and if Ryo just looked at the tree and said "oh Shenhua, this is a Shenmue tree too" it would be really weird, and clunky exposition, to me. The game does indicate there's something special about the Shenmue tree at Ternary Spring (I love how you can't even bring yourself to admit it's a Shenmue tree, even now lol): Shenhua says it protects her, Ryo has flashbacks of his father when he touches it, and Ryo notes that it is a Shenmue tree in the notebook.

If you're going to challenge me on that, and get really fucking snarky while doing so, I'm going to bite back. Boo hoo. If you don't like it, don't come at me with your bullshit in the first place. I'm more than happy to have an adult conversation, something you're clearly incapable of having.

Well, it'd imply that the problem isn't me...

I mean, you're the only one having a complete fucking meltdown and dishing out insults toward me. The other guys in the thread that disagree with me have had pretty normal, if a bit heated at times, conversations where we've come to the conclusion that we simply disagree. I could link you to about two dozen threads in which you're behaving absolutely terribly. You're like this in almost every argument you get in on here, and you get in arguments about once a week. As I said, you're one of the most petty, argumentative, smug, arrogant and downright tedious users on the dojo.

Absolutely hilariously ironically, I've had PMs from multiple people re: this very interaction from people telling me not to waste my time on you, because you're always doing this. That you're one of those people who just has to get the last dig in, and just generally talking about what a complete pain in the arse you are on here. So it's pretty fucking clear that the problem is you, mate.

I'm continuously throwing annoying, passive-aggressive digs your way?

Yes, you know you have. Don't play dumb.

Here's some snippets from your posts:

Great. Me telling you to pay attention to the game after you yourself have stated you haven't been paying attention, and then responding to your tedious, snarky, passive-aggressive shite in an exasperated tone is such vile behaviour on my part. Right. Please, grow up.

You have consistently, constantly, unwaveringly been condescending and insulting to anyone in this thread who dared disagree with you. Everything, EVERYTHING you accuse me of doing you have already done in this thread.

No I haven't. I haven't even insulted you until this little meltdown, because you exploded at me with insults. I have no issue with anyone else on this forum, other than you. Even then, I would have been glad to put this aside and crack on. But nah, you've shown what you're about and that's fine.

I won't block you. I actually don't want to be on a forum where your vile behaviour is considered acceptable, so I'll take my leave. I don't give a shit anymore, I've had it with this place.

Fine by me pal. I've been here long before you, and I'll be here after. I hope for the dojo's sake you'll actually stick to your word. Users like you are why I only come around here every now and then these days. You shit up just about every thread you're in, derailing it with pointless arguments and insults because you can't stand having your ego challenged. This place would be 1000% better if you didn't post here, frankly. Good riddance.

You are a hypocritical, insulting, pretentious, condescending bully. Go fuck yourself.

Right back at you pal.