Shenmue 4. The possible abrupt ending to the series?

[iknifaugood]

All of this in the context of there being twin Shenmue trees, and the entire game being about the journey of two individuals. I really, honestly cannot believe you or anyone else can't grasp the point the game is very, very clearly making.

But there are more than two Shenmue trees. The one at Shenhua's house, the one in Bailu Village, and the one we see in the flashback so no, there are not "twin" Shenmue trees and if there were, someone in the game should have said that. We have no reason to believe that we won't encounter many more of these trees later on. I'm sorry but the tree in Ternary Spring is not shown to be significant to Ryo beyond the fact that his father trained there. The game even misses an opportunity to show this when it shows Ryo training at the dojo the night before leaving Bailu Village as Shenhua recites the poem.

There's a theme of Shenmue tree = protection, guardianship, and we learn about that second Shenmue tree in the context of it having special meaning to Iwao Hazuki.

Agreed except for the part where the tree has a special meaning to Iwao. He trained there with Sunming, which is the important part, not the tree. Again, he trained Ryo in front of the sakura tree at the Hazuki residence and buried the dragon mirror under it, that tree is shown to be much more significant between the two and if they intended for the tree in Ternary Spring to be as significant or more so, they failed at conveying that.

I don't see why you feel so desperately that the game needed even more of that when it comes to the Shenmue trees though.

Because it's possible to not even know it's a Shenmue tree and nothing is expanded upon their significance to the story beyond, as you point out, a general theme of "protection" towards Shenhua, and the fact that they're extremely old. Like, if the game is called Shenmue and we only really know that it refers to a tree, then why? I wouldn't consider expanding on that to be pointless especially because 1. S3 is starved for story points and 2. the way that the Shenmue series handles important plot information in literally every other instance.

I mean, you can think it's bad storytelling. We'll have to agree to disagree there. But if you're a long time fan you really should at the very least know that Lan Di is trying to resurrect Chi You:

Is that what he's doing? If you pay attention to that very scene you will no doubt notice that Chen says Yuanda Zhu told him that information, and what does Yuanda Zhu say about the mirrors when we finally meet him? That they form a key to unlock treasure hidden away in order to revive the Qing Dynasty. S3 doubles down on this. The Qing Dynasty is about 2000 years younger than "Chi You" and we learn that the mirrors weren't even made until 1910 so, again, what does Lan Di think they do? Does he literally want to revive an ancient monster? Does he want money? What are the Chi You Men beyond an evil group of bad guys? We don't know.

As for Niao Sun, she was literally just introduced, and betrayed Lan Di. Why would we know what her plans are? She's clearly being set up as a main villain in Shenmue IV. There are another 3 Shenmue games to follow, we're about 40% of the way through the story. There's plenty of time for all sorts of further exposition and development on that front.

First of all, Suzuki claimed that he wanted to do it in 4-5 games, not 6. Second of all, at the glacial pace of the story in S3, I have no faith that yet another uncertain sequel will finally start moving the plot forward. And third of all, a fourth game is barely a guarantee, never mind 6. If we have to wait until game 4/5 to find out who the bad guys are and what they want then I'm sorry but that's a poorly told story. Niao Sun isn't even named ffs. Shenmue 3 needed to do a lot more than it did especially since Bailu village is home to the shenmue tree(s), where the mirrors were made, and where the poem is from and yet none of that is expanded upon.

I'm really curious as to what you want from the game. Do you want the Shenmue trees to come alive and talk to you, and explain some long story about why they're watching Ryo & Shenhua? Maybe uproot themselves and come along for the journey with Ren & Shenhua? It's literally just a simple plot point of ancient mysticism. Some cool-looking, spiritual trees are protecting the games' protagonists in some magical/mystical way. It's no deeper than that.

I want the game to expand on what their purpose is. So the Shenmue tree feels alive and protects people and is linked to ancient times, that's good stuff. The flashback to the ancient couple is awesome, more of that please. Perhaps Ryo could touch the tree in Ternary Spring and say something about how the tree makes him feel, or practice elbow assault in front of it at the very least. Literally anything visually engaging to expand on the whatever place these trees have in the storyline. I'm primarily interested in Shenmue for the story, I see no reason to continue the franchise for any reason other than story and S3 does not continue or expand the story enough and this is emblematic of that problem.

Then a second Shenmue tree is introduced, Ryo is taken aback by its connection to his father, and Shenhua once again reiterates "I've always felt protected here." It's not a complex point the game is making, I have absolutely no idea why you have so much resistance to it. It's like you're willingly ignoring it because you're mad you didn't pick up on it when playing or something.

No, the tree is significant because it's in the picture, that's why, in a town of martial arts masters, Ryo knows his father trained here specifically, under Grandmaster Feng. Since it's a Shenmue tree, so much the better, build on that. But no, all we learned is that Iwao trained there, the trees are linked to protection, and the mirrors were made in 1910. Not exactly what I waited 18 years for.

 

[hmjohnny]

Yeah, I don't disagree with you here. I wouldn't call it bad storytelling, just pointless, tedious exposition. I don't see why you feel so desperately that the game needed even more of that when it comes to the Shenmue trees though.

I don't want to open this up again but following your conversation I want to add a few things.

With regards to exposition, I agree that beating you over the head is a bad thing. however, let's remember that you had previously said there was some exposition on this in the form of a dialogue with Shenhua at night. I haven't been able to find that yet but I'm curious once it does show up what exactly was said. Thing is, this scene needed SOME kind of acknowledgment and it does apparently exist.

Second thing, I went back and looked at the trees. They are definitely different trees. They share the same bark texture and petals but the mesh for the model is different. The tree outside Shenhua's house is much larger.

Lastly, I just want to say that I agree with iknifeu's point regarding the significance of the tree. I think this is getting lost in translation during the discussion. That is, I agree that it is obvious that the second tree is a Shenmue tree, despite some people missing that. However, your analysis that it is a twin tree guarding Ryo vs the house tree guarding Shenhua seems sparse. I re-watched the scene and I just don't see any evidence for that. I do believe that is an interpretation you have concluded but wasn't intended in the game.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

But there are more than two Shenmue trees. The one at Shenhua's house, the one in Bailu Village, and the one we see in the flashback so no, there are not "twin" Shenmue trees and if there were, someone in the game should have said that. We have no reason to believe that we won't encounter many more of these trees later on. I'm sorry but the tree in Ternary Spring is not shown to be significant to Ryo beyond the fact that his father trained there. The game even misses an opportunity to show this when it shows Ryo training at the dojo the night before leaving Bailu Village as Shenhua recites the poem.

Wait what? Can you link me to this scene? The tree in the flashback at the Ternary Spring is the cherry tree in the Hazuki residence that Iwao trained Ryo in front of. Where is this third Shenmue tree in a flashback you're on about?

Agreed except for the part where the tree has a special meaning to Iwao. He trained there with Sunming, which is the important part, not the tree. Again, he trained Ryo in front of the sakura tree at the Hazuki residence and buried the dragon mirror under it, that tree is shown to be much more significant between the two and if they intended for the tree in Ternary Spring to be as significant or more so, they failed at conveying that.

If your takeaway from the Ternary Spring scene is "Iwao punched a tree," then that's all that needs to be said. The game is crystal clear. You not understanding the point it's making isn't the game failing to convey the point.

Because it's possible to not even know it's a Shenmue tree and nothing is expanded upon their significance to the story beyond, as you point out, a general theme of "protection" towards Shenhua, and the fact that they're extremely old. Like, if the game is called Shenmue and we only really know that it refers to a tree, then why? I wouldn't consider expanding on that to be pointless especially because 1. S3 is starved for story points and 2. the way that the Shenmue series handles important plot information in literally every other instance.

It isn't though. The game tells you it's a Shenmue tree. It's obviously a Shenmue tree. I don't even understand your point any more. You keep flip flopping between you know it's a Shenmue tree, but somehow you feel the game doesn't tell you it's a Shenmue tree (even though it does), so therefore you need more exposition?

It's a Shenmue tree. There are two Shenmue trees in Bailu village. They protect Ryo & Shenhua and symbolise their relationship. What do you want them to expand on? Please, lay out the scene for me that you would have liked to have seen. If it's literally just Ryo or Shenhua going "that's a second Shenmue tree," in some way, then that's what I would consider pointless exposition and dog shit storytelling.

Is that what he's doing? If you pay attention to that very scene you will no doubt notice that Chen says Yuanda Zhu told him that information, and what does Yuanda Zhu say about the mirrors when we finally meet him? That they form a key to unlock treasure hidden away in order to revive the Qing Dynasty. S3 doubles down on this. The Qing Dynasty is about 2000 years younger than "Chi You" and we learn that the mirrors weren't even made until 1910 so, again, what does Lan Di think they do? Does he literally want to revive an ancient monster? Does he want money? What are the Chi You Men beyond an evil group of bad guys? We don't know.

Yes, perhaps Yu ret-conned it, or perhaps the "treasure" is in fact Chi You. Either way, we know Lan Di's motivation is to seize both mirrors and use them to get a hold of that. You said we had no idea what the Chi You Men want with the mirrors, when we clearly do.

First of all, Suzuki claimed that he wanted to do it in 4-5 games, not 6. Second of all, at the glacial pace of the story in S3, I have no faith that yet another uncertain sequel will finally start moving the plot forward. And third of all, a fourth game is barely a guarantee, never mind 6. If we have to wait until game 4/5 to find out who the bad guys are and what they want then I'm sorry but that's a poorly told story. Niao Sun isn't even named ffs. Shenmue 3 needed to do a lot more than it did especially since Bailu village is home to the shenmue tree(s), where the mirrors were made, and where the poem is from and yet none of that is expanded upon.

He's absolutely mentioned he wants to do 6 games, but could cut it down to 4-5 if needed. If the story isn't moving fast enough for you, cool, that's your problem. I really like the pace myself, and I'd prefer Yu told the story as he sees fit and doesn't rush it.

I want the game to expand on what their purpose is. So the Shenmue tree feels alive and protects people and is linked to ancient times, that's good stuff. The flashback to the ancient couple is awesome, more of that please. Perhaps Ryo could touch the tree in Ternary Spring and say something about how the tree makes him feel, or practice elbow assault in front of it at the very least. Literally anything visually engaging to expand on the whatever place these trees have in the storyline. I'm primarily interested in Shenmue for the story, I see no reason to continue the franchise for any reason other than story and S3 does not continue or expand the story enough and this is emblematic of that problem.

So Ryo touches the tree and has flashbacks of his father, right after Shenhua said she feels like it "protects her." Then literally the first words uttered after that are "Iwao." But you think Ryo touching the tree again and saying "this tree is special to me also, I also feel protected by it," is good exposition? I'm sorry, but that's awful. I'm glad the story is in Yu's hands and not the fans'.

No, the tree is significant because it's in the picture, that's why, in a town of martial arts masters, Ryo knows his father trained here specifically, under Grandmaster Feng. Since it's a Shenmue tree, so much the better, build on that. But no, all we learned is that Iwao trained there, the trees are linked to protection, and the mirrors were made in 1910. Not exactly what I waited 18 years for.

If it's not enough for you, fair enough. But your takeaway from the scene is "Iwao punched trees." There's obviously more to it than that whether you want to see it or not, and for me, it was perfect. We'll agree to disagree on how to tell Shenmue's story. I'm firmly in Yu's camp on that one.

I don't want to open this up again but following your conversation I want to add a few things.

With regards to exposition, I agree that beating you over the head is a bad thing. however, let's remember that you had previously said there was some exposition on this in the form of a dialogue with Shenhua at night. I haven't been able to find that yet but I'm curious once it does show up what exactly was said. Thing is, this scene needed SOME kind of acknowledgment and it does apparently exist.

I mean, it's a Shenmue tree. The game makes that perfectly clear, I'm honestly shocked so many people not only missed it, but are trying to argue it isn't. It's written in the damn notebook! Shenhua literally says "it protects me." It could not be more obvious without the tree growing a face, looking into the camera and going "alright mate, I'm a Shenmue tree."

Second thing, I went back and looked at the trees. They are definitely different trees. They share the same bark texture and petals but the mesh for the model is different. The tree outside Shenhua's house is much larger.

Yeah, I had a look and they are different sizes. Same texture bark and same texture petals though.

Lastly, I just want to say that I agree with iknifeu's point regarding the significance of the tree. I think this is getting lost in translation during the discussion. That is, I agree that it is obvious that the second tree is a Shenmue tree, despite some people missing that. However, your analysis that it is a twin tree guarding Ryo vs the house tree guarding Shenhua seems sparse. I re-watched the scene and I just don't see any evidence for that. I do believe that is an interpretation you have concluded but wasn't intended in the game.

Shenhua and Ryo both talk about how the Shenmue tree by Shenhua's house makes them feel. That it feels alive and they feel watched or protected by it. Then a second Shenmue tree is introduced, Shenhua says this Shenmue tree also protects her, Ryo looks at the spot where Iwao practiced on the tree and has flashbacks to his father training him. It's then revealed that Iwao and Zhao trained here often. The game is clearly drawing a connection between this tree and Iwao, and by extension Ryo. There are two Shenmue trees. There are two main characters. I don't think it's a blind leap to see that these trees are tied to Ryo and Shenhua, and protect them.

 

[hmjohnny]

Shenhua and Ryo both talk about how the Shenmue tree by Shenhua's house makes them feel. That it feels alive and they feel watched or protected by it. Then a second Shenmue tree is introduced, Shenhua says this Shenmue tree also protects her, Ryo looks at the spot where Iwao practiced on the tree and has flashbacks to his father training him. It's then revealed that Iwao and Zhao trained here often. The game is clearly drawing a connection between this tree and Iwao, and by extension Ryo. There are two Shenmue trees. There are two main characters. I don't think it's a blind leap to see that these trees are tied to Ryo and Shenhua, and protect them.

I think it is a bit of a leap though. It contradicts the game making the Shenmue tree seem unique and special. Also, Ryo has dialogue regarding the tree outside the house as protective and says nothing of the ternary spring tree being special for him. Looking in the picture of Iwao and Sunming it seems that every tree in the background is a Shenmue tree so idk.

Again, it's not that I'm missing something, I've re-watched the scene and listened to your analysis carefully, I just don't see that connection. I'm happy to let other people chime in with their interpretations/opinions of the scene.

Anyway, I think the only way to resolve this is to find that piece of dialogue between Ryo and Shenhua to see what the game actually says about the tree. We are speculating without it.

 

[iknifaugood]

Wait what? Can you link me to this scene? The tree in the flashback at the Ternary Spring is the cherry tree in the Hazuki residence that Iwao trained Ryo in front of. Where is this third Shenmue tree in a flashback you're on about?

This is clearly not Shenhua's house nor Ternary Spring (at 0:50), although the baby is named Shenhua. None of that is expanded upon in S3, if it wasn't important then why show it in a flashback? I guess if it was really important it would be buried in the notebook or an optional conversation...

If your takeaway from the Ternary Spring scene is "Iwao punched a tree," then that's all that needs to be said. The game is crystal clear.

My takeaway is that Ryo surmises from the picture that he's in the location where his father trained and he meets the master who trained him there, which is why when the master points him to the temple, Ryo immediately leaves the area and never returns. That's the point of the scene. There's subtextual significance in the fact that the tree he's punching is a shenmue tree, but we have no idea what that is beyond the fact that these trees are important for some undisclosed reason.

It isn't though. The game tells you it's a Shenmue tree. It's obviously a Shenmue tree. I don't even understand your point any more. You keep flip flopping between you know it's a Shenmue tree, but somehow you feel the game doesn't tell you it's a Shenmue tree (even though it does), so therefore you need more exposition?

It's a Shenmue tree. There are two Shenmue trees in Bailu village. They protect Ryo & Shenhua and symbolise their relationship. What do you want them to expand on? Please, lay out the scene for me that you would have liked to have seen. If it's literally just Ryo or Shenhua going "that's a second Shenmue tree," in some way, then that's what I would consider pointless exposition and dog shit storytelling.

It's a shenmue tree. I don't need exposition that it's a shenmue tree (though unmissable confirmation would be nice) but if they're significant to the plot (as I can only assume they are) and we are going to be seeing more of them (as I can only assume we are, hence the point of the flashback), then I would like the game to set that up properly. Maybe we get another flashback and we can expect a new one at each tree? I don't know the significance of the trees, which is precisely my problem. I'm not going to start claiming my theories are exactly what the game is trying to convey like you insist on doing.

You said we had no idea what the Chi You Men want with the mirrors, when we clearly do.

No we don't. Do they want treasure or do they want to resurrect a monster? Or do they think it's something else? Guess we'll find out at the end of the story...

I really like the pace myself, and I'd prefer Yu told the story as he sees fit and doesn't rush it.

I'm glad you liked it. What did you learn in S3 that moved the story forward?

So Ryo touches the tree and has flashbacks of his father, right after Shenhua said she feels like it "protects her." Then literally the first words uttered after that are "Iwao." But you think Ryo touching the tree again and saying "this tree is special to me also, I also feel protected by it," is good exposition?

I gave several examples. How about Ryo training underneath that tree the night before he leaves since it's so significant to him? Or literally any scene of him returning to the tree?

I'm glad the story is in Yu's hands and not the fans'.

Is it though? Does this seem like a story that's been properly planned out for over 20 years? Or does it seem like he's ret-conning and cutting a bunch of stuff? I mean, almost nothing of importance happens in S3 and you... like that? Why?

We'll agree to disagree on how to tell Shenmue's story. I'm firmly in Yu's camp on that one.

You liked the unnamed villains? You liked Lan Di's henchmen being a joke? You think Niao Sun was a central character to S3 like Suzuki promised? You felt that the poem was explained in this game like he said it would be? What parts of the story of Shenmue 3 did you like?

 

[DarksideHazuki]

I think it is a bit of a leap though. It contradicts the game making the Shenmue tree seem unique and special. Also, Ryo has dialogue regarding the tree outside the house as protective and says nothing of the ternary spring tree being special for him. Looking in the picture of Iwao and Sunming it seems that every tree in the background is a Shenmue tree so idk.

Again, it's not that I'm missing something, I've re-watched the scene and listened to your analysis carefully, I just don't see that connection.

Anyway, I think the only way to resolve this is to find that piece of dialogue between Ryo and Shenhua to see what the game actually says about the tree. We are speculating without it.

Fair enough, if you don't think it's there I'm not going to try to convince you. It's not my place to tell others what they should take from the game. I just think the game makes the point very clearly, myself. I don't think it contradicts the Shenmue tree being unique and special at all. In fact I think it makes perfect sense that there are two Shenmue trees to represent & symbolise the two main characters.

 

[hmjohnny]

Does this seem like a story that's been properly planned out for over 20 years? Or does it seem like he's ret-conning and cutting a bunch of stuff?

I'm thinking of starting a thread just to discuss this.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

This is clearly not Shenhua's house nor Ternary Spring (at 0:50), although the baby is named Shenhua. None of that is expanded upon in S3, if it wasn't important then why show it in a flashback? I guess if it was really important it would be buried in the notebook or an optional conversation...

Ah right, I thought you meant a flashback in Shenmue III. Yeah, Shenhua's born under a Shenmue tree. So they're just all significant to and protective of Ryo & Shenhua then. Maybe there's even more Shenmue trees knocking about. Regardless, I don't think it's much deeper than "Ancient spiritual trees protecting Ryo & Shenhua."

My takeaway is that Ryo surmises from the picture that he's in the location where his father trained and he meets the master who trained him there, which is why when the master points him to the temple, Ryo immediately leaves the area and never returns. That's the point of the scene. There's subtextual significance in the fact that the tree he's punching is a shenmue tree, but we have no idea what that is beyond the fact that these trees are important for some undisclosed reason.

It's not undisclosed though. They feel special to Ryo and Shenhua, and they feel as if they're watching over them / protecting them. I'm not sure what else you wanted, but I think that's as deep as it goes. I honestly don't know what else the game could do to satisfy you there. Do you want the trees to grant them powers or something?

It's a shenmue tree. I don't need exposition that it's a shenmue tree (though unmissable confirmation would be nice) but if they're significant to the plot (as I can only assume they are) and we are going to be seeing more of them (as I can only assume we are, hence the point of the flashback), then I would like the game to set that up properly. Maybe we get another flashback and we can expect a new one at each tree? I don't know the significance of the trees, which is precisely my problem. I'm not going to start claiming my theories are exactly what the game is trying to convey like you insist on doing.

I'm saying the game is conveying the point that the Shenmue trees are special to Ryo & Shenhua, and that they protect them. Nothing more. The game explicitly tells us exactly this. You seem unsatisfied with the amount of exposition the game gives us, I feel like it's just the right amount.

No we don't. Do they want treasure or do they want to resurrect a monster? Or do they think it's something else? Guess we'll find out at the end of the story...

We're told Lan Di is trying to resurrect Chi You using the mirrors, and then we're told that the mirrors created a map leading to treasure. It's deliberately ambiguous, and the "treasure" could very well be Chi You. We may not know the specific plans down the the most minute detail, but we absolutely know the broad strokes of Lan Di's motivation. Get mirrors, use them.

I'm glad you liked it. What did you learn in S3 that moved the story forward?

https://www.shenmuedojo.com/forum/index.php?threads/reality-vs-expectations-warning-spoilers-within.2174/page-2#post-73638

I gave several examples. How about Ryo training underneath that tree the night before he leaves since it's so significant to him? Or literally any scene of him returning to the tree?

Him touching the tree and having flashbacks of his father before anyone mentioned Iwao wasn't significant to you? Again, your takeaway from that is "Iwao punched tree?" I'm sorry, but you're being deliberately obtuse. If you needed to see Ryo explicitly state that he feels a connection to the tree, good for you. For me, that's terribly laborious exposition, and I'm thankful Yu didn't go that route.

Is it though? Does this seem like a story that's been properly planned out for over 20 years? Or does it seem like he's ret-conning and cutting a bunch of stuff? I mean, almost nothing of importance happens in S3 and you... like that? Why?

I mean that's your opinion. We clearly disagree on the story of Shenmue III and that's fine. I don't care to convince you to like a video game mate. You do you.

You liked the unnamed villains? You liked Lan Di's henchmen being a joke? You think Niao Sun was a central character to S3 like Suzuki promised? You felt that the poem was explained in this game like he said it would be? What parts of the story of Shenmue 3 did you like?

Yep, loved every minute of it. I thought it was brilliant. Completely disagree with your take on just about everything, but I thought it was brilliant yeah.

 

[iknifaugood]

Yeah, Shenhua's born under a Shenmue tree. So they're just all significant to and protective of Ryo & Shenhua then. Maybe there's even more Shenmue trees knocking about. Regardless, I don't think it's much deeper than "Ancient spiritual trees protecting Ryo & Shenhua."

You may be right, I was initially under the assumption that the Shenmue tree only existed in Bailu village but if there are multiple trees then I'm sure they're connected to the story later on. I can only assume that Shenhua will reach the area where she was born when she finds out who her parents are and the tree will likely have a roll in that, either triggering a flashback or whatever. If they're simply just old trees that Ryo and Shenhua feel a connection to, then I don't really understand the point of naming the game after them, especially since Ryo and Shenhua's meeting being "predetermined since ancient times" seems to imply big things.

I honestly don't know what else the game could do to satisfy you there. Do you want the trees to grant them powers or something?

No, just move the story forward. Frankly, I knew Iwao trained in Bailu village with Sunming Zhao so I found the repeating of that information redundant. Something else about their characters would have been nice to learn from their master; who was the better fighter? Was one of them angry or jealous? How long had they been training there? How well did they know each other when that picture was taken? Literally anything we didn't already know! And it seems like the Shenmue trees triggering memories or flashbacks or feelings (as you point out, Ryo seems to know his father trained there before anyone says anything) would make them a particularly useful plot device.

We may not know the specific plans down the the most minute detail, but we absolutely know the broad strokes of Lan Di's motivation. Get mirrors, use them.

Get mirrors, use them is not enough stakes for the primary antagonist of the story this deep into it. Are the Chi You Men a threat to the world? China? How do they even know about the mirrors? Again, anything we didn't already know would be great. In Lord of the Rings we'd be halfway through the Two Towers and it'd be pretty weird if we didn't know what the ring did or what Sauron wants to do with it...

I feel like we learned plenty, loads of really interesting events took place, and lots of great new characters were introduced.

I simply disagree with you. Beyond the fact that the mirrors were created in 1910 at the behest of an emperor and empress, Iwao and Sunming had a master named Feng, and there are multiple shenmue trees, nothing about the backstory has been filled in and we're almost halfway done. In terms of the plot we don't even learn Niao Sun's name, never mind what her problem with Lan Di is and, this is why knowing what the bad guys want the mirror for is important, Ryo gives her the Phoenix mirror! If that's enough for you then power to you, but I was expecting more and, judging by the reactions of most people who finished the game, I'm not alone. Hell, Suzuki promised more.

Him touching the tree and having flashbacks of his father before anyone mentioned Iwao wasn't significant to you? Again, your takeaway from that is "Iwao punched tree?" I'm sorry, but you're being deliberately obtuse

What can I say? When I played Shenmue 1 and encountered all the Iwao flashbacks, I felt something. When I played Shenmue 2 and first encountered the Shenmue tree, I felt something. When Ryo touched the tree in Shenmue 3 and flashed back to his father and learned absolutely nothing of significance, I felt nothing. I'm not trying to be obtuse or demand literal answers from the game, but I expected to learn more about Iwao that I didn't already. I guess we'll have to wait until Shenmue 4 but at this point in the story I don't view that as an acceptable excuse for how much information is being back loaded.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

You may be right, I was initially under the assumption that the Shenmue tree only existed in Bailu village but if there are multiple trees then I'm sure they're connected to the story later on. I can only assume that Shenhua will reach the area where she was born when she finds out who her parents are and the tree will likely have a roll in that, either triggering a flashback or whatever. If they're simply just old trees that Ryo and Shenhua feel a connection to, then I don't really understand the point of naming the game after them, especially since Ryo and Shenhua's meeting being "predetermined since ancient times" seems to imply big things.

To me it makes sense. In fact I think it's really cool that there's multiple Shenmue trees. I think the predetermined since ancient times shit is just more Chinese mysticism, and that's perfectly interwoven with ancient mystic trees protecting them. Not much deeper than that really.

No, just move the story forward. Frankly, I knew Iwao trained in Bailu village with Sunming Zhao so I found the repeating of that information redundant. Something else about their characters would have been nice to learn from their master; who was the better fighter? Was one of them angry or jealous? How long had they been training there? How well did they know each other when that picture was taken? Literally anything we didn't already know! And it seems like the Shenmue trees triggering memories or flashbacks or feelings (as you point out, Ryo seems to know his father trained there before anyone says anything) would make them a particularly useful plot device.

See to me, what we got was just enough. No offense, but I would really hate learning stuff like "who was the better fighter," or other silly things like that. That just sounds so goofy and anime to me.

Get mirrors, use them is not enough stakes for the primary antagonist of the story this deep into it. Are the Chi You Men a threat to the world? China? How do they even know about the mirrors? Again, anything we didn't already know would be great. In Lord of the Rings we'd be halfway through the Two Towers and it'd be pretty weird if we didn't know what the ring did or what Sauron wants to do with it...

I don't think Lan Di is actually the primary antagonist though. And for you that might not be enough of a motivation, but it is for me. I like that the secret of the mirrors is being kept ambiguous. I'd hate to find out what they actually do 40% into the story. Right now we just kinda know that some seriously bad shit is coming if the Chi You Men get hold of both mirrors, potentially leading to the ressurrection of an actual fucking demon and that's enough for me.

I simply disagree with you. Beyond the fact that the mirrors were created in 1910 at the behest of an emperor and empress, Iwao and Sunming had a master named Feng, and there are multiple shenmue trees, nothing about the backstory has been filled in and we're almost halfway done. In terms of the plot we don't even learn Niao Sun's name, never mind what her problem with Lan Di is and, this is why knowing what the bad guys want the mirror for is important, Ryo gives her the Phoenix mirror! If that's enough for you then power to you, but I was expecting more and, judging by the reactions of most people who finished the game, I'm not alone. Hell, Suzuki promised more.

Yep. Fair enough. Agree to disagree. I loved the game and the story. I thought it was just the right balance of well-crafted exposition and left just the right amount of interesting questions. I also loved the new characters introduced. Ending on the cliff-hanger of oh shit, Ryo just nearly got murdered by Lan Di, Niao Sun betrayed Lan Di and tried to burn him alive, and Ryo has lost the fucking Phoenix mirror was absolutely fucking insane. I loved it.

What can I say? When I played Shenmue 1 and encountered all the Iwao flashbacks, I felt something. When I played Shenmue 2 and first encountered the Shenmue tree, I felt something. When Ryo touched the tree in Shenmue 3 and flashed back to his father and learned absolutely nothing of significance, I felt nothing. I'm not trying to be obtuse or demand literal answers from the game, but I expected to learn more about Iwao that I didn't already. I guess we'll have to wait until Shenmue 4 but at this point in the story I don't view that as an acceptable excuse for how much information is being back loaded.

Fair enough, that sucks that you feel that way. For me the game was much more fulfilling. It felt just about right for being just under half way into the saga. Like it was once again laying the groundwork for a more expansive sequel with a hopefully larger budget.

 

[iknifaugood]

I think the predetermined since ancient times shit is just more Chinese mysticism, and that's perfectly interwoven with ancient mystic trees protecting them. Not much deeper than that really. No offense, but I would really hate learning stuff like "who was the better fighter," or other silly things like that. That just sounds so goofy and anime to me.

If this is all you're expecting and you're OK with not finding out any more about Iwao and Sunming until the reveal of what happened when he was killed (presumably under a Shenmue tree) then why do you want the story to be so protracted? I mean, 6 games of... what, exactly?

I'd hate to find out what they actually do 40% into the story. Right now we just kinda know that some seriously bad shit is coming if the Chi You Men get hold of both mirrors, potentially leading to the ressurrection of an actual fucking demon and that's enough for me.

I didn't say to reveal what the mirrors actually do, just what they think it does. In Raiders for instance, we get 2 theories before the eventual reveal at the end and a clear idea of what the stakes are if the Nazis obtain it. To say nothing of the fact that we were promised "four leaders of the Chi You Men" etc. that were not even hinted at. It seems like a good way to develop the villains but again, if you're fine with them being "generic evil organization" then how can that possibly sustain 6 games?

It felt just about right for being just under half way into the saga. Like it was once again laying the groundwork for a more expansive sequel with a hopefully larger budget.

The idea that Shenmue 4 will have a bigger budget is a fantasy. S3 was always going to have the most money because of the nostalgia going in, if anything all S4 stands to do is lose existing fans who won't contribute crazy sums of money to the next Kickstarter. That's if we even get a S4, nevermind 5 and 6. If the story is as shallow as you claim, I don't see why it couldn't be finished in 1 more game. What happened between Iwao and Sunming, what do the mirrors do, who are Shenhua's real parents, and what happens to Ryo and Lan Di. 1 game is more than enough to answer those questions unless its another 30 hours of fetch quests and grinding.

 

[TwiceFriedRice]

Theory: What if the cherry tree outside of the dojo is actually an immature Shenmue tree? And when the series ends and you head back home, the tree is fully grown. *Roll Credits*

 

[TwiceFriedRice]

And, yeah, Shenmue 4 being made with a AAA budget is a pipe dream. And even if it were, it doesn’t excuse the complete fuck up of the final act in 3.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

If this is all you're expecting and you're OK with not finding out any more about Iwao and Sunming until the reveal of what happened when he was killed (presumably under a Shenmue tree) then why do you want the story to be so protracted?

I'm okay with the pacing of the story, yeah. If we were to find out all about Iwao and Zhao, how Iwao snapped and killed him in anger, how Iwao didn't actually kill him but was set up, how Iwao seized the mirrors to keep them out of evil's hands etc. etc. it would have been a huge let-down for me. I'm enjoying the journey. I much prefer a slow-burn, personally.

I mean, 6 games of... what, exactly?

6 games of Shenmue mate. I've waited 18 years for one, I'll wait as long as I need for the rest of the story told exactly as Yu sees fit.

I didn't say to reveal what the mirrors actually do, just what they think it does. In Raiders for instance, we get 2 theories before the eventual reveal at the end and a clear idea of what the stakes are if the Nazis obtain it. To say nothing of the fact that we were promised "four leaders of the Chi You Men" etc. that were not even hinted at. It seems like a good way to develop the villains but again, if you're fine with them being "generic evil organization" then how can that possibly sustain 6 games?

Yeah I don't really know what to say to you, I just like how Yu's telling the story. I don't want big reveals 40% into the story. I'm perfectly fine with what we know of the Chi You Men and their leaders at this point in the tale. To me, it seems about right having just introduced the second leader at just under the half-way point in the story. It's a real shame that Shenmue III just didn't do it for you, but it did for me.

The idea that Shenmue 4 will have a bigger budget is a fantasy. S3 was always going to have the most money because of the nostalgia going in, if anything all S4 stands to do is lose existing fans who won't contribute crazy sums of money to the next Kickstarter. That's if we even get a S4, nevermind 5 and 6. If the story is as shallow as you claim, I don't see why it couldn't be finished in 1 more game. What happened between Iwao and Sunming, what do the mirrors do, who are Shenhua's real parents, and what happens to Ryo and Lan Di. 1 game is more than enough to answer those questions unless its another 30 hours of fetch quests and grinding.

I mean that's your opinion. I'm clearly more positive on the overall outlook of Shenmue. I'm confident we'll see a Shenmue IV, and from there who knows? Even if we don't, I have always maintained that I'd prefer to see 40% of the Shenmue story told as Yu wants it told, than 100% of the story rushed for the sake of fans' anxieties it won't be finished. Again, after reading the reactions/theories/fans' story suggestions on here, I have to reiterate in the strongest possible terms, I am eternally grateful that the story is playing out as Yu Suzuki sees fit, and not the fans'.

I haven't claimed the story is shallow at all, that's your take on things, not mine. I found the story in Shenmue III incredibly satisfying. I also don't think the game is setting up the finale to be Ryo vs. Lan Di, as you seem to. To me it seems pretty clear that the revenge arc and Lan Di aren't really the focus of the story at all, but the growth of Ryo and his journey with Shenhua. There's plenty still to tell. Yu had 16 chapters planned out, and at this point we've just finished up chapter 6.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Haven't beaten the game yet and haven't read anything outside of a few blurbs here and there, but I think this thread confirms one MAJOR thing:

The story is not bad in this game at all, but... many fans wanted to it be something that it isn't.

So far, the story has been outstanding to me, so I don't see any objective issues thus far.

But from what people are saying, they, "expected something else from the story."

That TOTALLY doesn't make this game's plot bad, not at all; just because you order a burger and you expect (without asking!) for fries with ketchup and you get just fries (without knowing anything before you order the meal), then that's 100% on you.

Look, I get that people expected there to be huge reveals and a lot of things going on, but if Yu said that 40% of the story is completed after this game, then nothing major will come out; just take what's there and be done with it. You're disappointed? Great! No one is telling you how to feel.

But it doesn't make this game a bad game or a bad plot, for that reason. People I think expected a ton of answers, but they will come in future games/media. For that reason, a golden rule exists; DON'T GO INTO ANYTHING WITH ANY EXPECTATIONS.

I too love a slow-burn and if that means a more fleshed-out plot, bring it on! Can't wait to start Niaowu

 

[Try Asking Sumiya San]

I think part of the problem is people have clearly rushed through. There’s so much character development if you take the time to talk to shenhua especially.

 

[iknifaugood]

If we were to find out all about Iwao and Zhao, how Iwao snapped and killed him in anger, how Iwao didn't actually kill him but was set up, how Iwao seized the mirrors to keep them out of evil's hands etc. etc. it would have been a huge let-down for me.

Why would that be a let down? Are you not expecting that to be revealed? It's literally mentioned in the opening cutscene of the first game and Ryo asks everyone he meets about it.

Yeah I don't really know what to say to you, I just like how Yu's telling the story. I don't want big reveals 40% into the story. I'm perfectly fine with what we know of the Chi You Men and their leaders at this point in the tale. To me, it seems about right having just introduced the second leader at just under the half-way point in the story. It's a real shame that Shenmue III just didn't do it for you, but it did for me.

I've lost complete faith that he has any kind of plan beyond general bullet points. This reminds me of the final season of Game of Thrones only instead of barreling from bullet point to bullet point, he's wasting our time with nonsense wheel spinning filler like the Red Snakes and then barreling to the next bullet point. The Niao Sun reveal alone is enough to fill me with concern; that's simply not an effective way to do that twist, to say nothing of the other red flags raised by this game.

I mean that's your opinion. I'm clearly more positive on the overall outlook of Shenmue. I'm confident we'll see a Shenmue IV, and from there who knows? Even if we don't, I have always maintained that I'd prefer to see 40% of the Shenmue story told as Yu wants it told, than 100% of the story rushed for the sake of fans' anxieties it won't be finished. Again, after reading the reactions/theories/fans' story suggestions on here, I have to reiterate in the strongest possible terms, I am eternally grateful that the story is playing out as Yu Suzuki sees fit, and not the fans'.

I don't want a fan fiction story but I want a well told story and S3 simply isn't. Shenmue 2 is a well told story with memorable moments, great characters, and a clear sense of purpose. S3 spends the first half building Ryo and Shenhua's relationship only to for her not matter at all in the second half; sorry but that's not good storytelling. Seriously, what did you like about it? There was very little plot movement (I think we can all agree on that) and I can barely remember any of the characters' names after spending 30 + hours in this world. Niao Sun isn't even named ffs! Seriously, the first game introduced us to Ine San, Fuku San, Nozomi, Goro, Guizhang, Master Chen, and Tom; Shenmue 2 had Xiuying, Ren, Wong, Joy, and Shenhua. If Shenmue 4 releases in another 20 years, who from this game are you going to want to call up on the phone?

Also, to be frank, Shenmue 4 depends entirely on sales numbers and things aren't looking good thus far for S3; it was released to very little fanfare, reviews have been largely indifferent, and it's up against stiff competition so the launch window is all it had. That, compounded with the Kickstarter controversy and fan backlash, makes a second successful Kickstarter seem extremely unlikely. I wish I could have some of your positivity but I just don't see it.

I haven't claimed the story is shallow at all, that's your take on things, not mine. I found the story in Shenmue III incredibly satisfying. I also don't think the game is setting up the finale to be Ryo vs. Lan Di, as you seem to. To me it seems pretty clear that the revenge arc and Lan Di aren't really the focus of the story at all, but the growth of Ryo and his journey with Shenhua. There's plenty still to tell. Yu had 16 chapters planned out, and at this point we've just finished up chapter 6.

You claim that you don't want reveals to any of the plot points and you like Shenmue 3's relatively sparse level of plot momentum, so if you think there's a story of any depth here, why would you want it backloaded? I don't think Lan Di is the main villain but guess what? I have no reason not to think that and neither do you. Also Suzuki has said repeatedly that there are 11 chapters, so we're closer to halfway than not.

But from what people are saying, they, "expected something else from the story."

No, we expected a proper story to be told.

I too love a slow-burn and if that means a more fleshed-out plot, bring it on! Can't wait to start Niaowu

This isn't a slow-burn, this is wheel-spinning. What the hell are you doing on a spoiler forum if you haven't played Niaowu!

I think part of the problem is people have clearly rushed through. There’s so much character development if you take the time to talk to shenhua especially.

I reject being told that I played the game wrong. I finished the game with level 36 kung fu, did a bunch of side quests, and exhausted most dialogue with Shenhua. Shenmue 3 has a bad story. To see a Shenmue game with a good story, that doesn't disrespect the player's time and patience, see Shenmue 2.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

Why would that be a let down? Are you not expecting that to be revealed? It's literally mentioned in the opening cutscene of the first game and Ryo asks everyone he meets about it.

Yeah I've always expected that to be revealed in Mengcun. It would have been really weird finding that out now, in Bailu village. The pacing would have been all wrong imo.

I've lost complete faith that he has any kind of plan beyond general bullet points. This reminds me of the final season of Game of Thrones only instead of barreling from bullet point to bullet point, he's wasting our time with nonsense wheel spinning filler like the Red Snakes and then barreling to the next bullet point. The Niao Sun reveal alone is enough to fill me with concern; that's simply not an effective way to do that twist, to say nothing of the other red flags raised by this game.

Yeah fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. I completely disagree though, I think the story was interesting and very satisfying.

I don't want a fan fiction story but I want a well told story and S3 simply isn't. Shenmue 2 is a well told story with memorable moments, great characters, and a clear sense of purpose. S3 spends the first half building Ryo and Shenhua's relationship only to for her not matter at all in the second half; sorry but that's not good storytelling. Seriously, what did you like about it? There was very little plot movement (I think we can all agree on that) and I can barely remember any of the characters' names after spending 30 + hours in this world. Niao Sun isn't even named ffs! Seriously, the first game introduced us to Ine San, Fuku San, Nozomi, Goro, Guizhang, Master Chen, and Tom; Shenmue 2 had Xiuying, Ren, Wong, Joy, and Shenhua. If Shenmue 4 releases in another 20 years, who from this game are you going to want to call up on the phone?

Also, to be frank, Shenmue 4 depends entirely on sales numbers and things aren't looking good thus far for S3; it was released to very little fanfare, reviews have been largely indifferent, and it's up against stiff competition so the launch window is all it had. That, compounded with the Kickstarter controversy and fan backlash, makes a second successful Kickstarter seem extremely unlikely. I wish I could have some of your positivity but I just don't see it.

Yeah like I said, it's cool for you to not like it. That's no bother for me. You think it's bad storytelling, I don't. I really enjoyed it and cannot wait for more. There was plenty of plot movement for me, so we definitely don't all agree on that and it would be real nice if you'd keep your opinion on the game separate from mine or anyone elses'. I've already told you what I liked about it.

You can choose to be down on the sales or reviews if you wish, but I'm not seeing that at all. It's cracking best-sellers lists even when releasing in an absolutely stacked month. Even if we don't get a Shenmue IV, as I've always said, I'd prefer 40% of the story told as Yu sees fit than 100% of it told any other way.

You claim that you don't want reveals to any of the plot points and you like Shenmue 3's relatively sparse level of plot momentum, so if you think there's a story of any depth here, why would you want it backloaded? I don't think Lan Di is the main villain but guess what? I have no reason not to think that and neither do you. Also Suzuki has said repeatedly that there are 11 chapters, so we're closer to halfway than not.

I don't want the reveal to plot points you've mentioned. I'm satisfied with what we got in Shenmue III. I disagree with your assessment of Shenmue III's plot entirely. I'll think what I want about the plot and Lan Di thanks, stop trying to implant your thoughts and opinions onto mine. I don't care what you think of the game, to be frank.

Suzuki originally had 16 chapters laid down, that he's said could be cut to 11. Either way, I feel like the pacing is just fine at this moment in the story.

 

[Try Asking Sumiya San]

Yeah I've always expected that to be revealed in Mengcun. It would have been really weird finding that out now, in Bailu village. The pacing would have been all wrong imo.



Yeah fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. I completely disagree though, I think the story was interesting and very satisfying.



Yeah like I said, it's cool for you to not like it. That's no bother for me. You think it's bad storytelling, I don't. I really enjoyed it and cannot wait for more. There was plenty of plot movement for me, so we definitely don't all agree on that and it would be real nice if you'd keep your opinion on the game separate from mine or anyone elses'. I've already told you what I liked about it.

You can choose to be down on the sales or reviews if you wish, but I'm not seeing that at all. It's cracking best-sellers lists even when releasing in an absolutely stacked month. Even if we don't get a Shenmue IV, as I've always said, I'd prefer 40% of the story told as Yu sees fit than 100% of it told any other way.



I don't want the reveal to plot points you've mentioned. I'm satisfied with what we got in Shenmue III. I disagree with your assessment of Shenmue III's plot entirely. I'll think what I want about the plot and Lan Di thanks, stop trying to implant your thoughts and opinions onto mine. I don't care what you think of the game, to be frank.

Suzuki originally had 16 chapters laid down, that he's said could be cut to 11. Either way, I feel like the pacing is just fine at this moment in the story.

It’s like you can’t just say you like shenmue 3 ! I’m glad you enjoyed it like I have been too.

Sheesh people wait 18 years for this thing then act very defensive and say it’s rubbish because the story didn’t take leap and bounds 40% through.... the story has had much development in it as shenmue 1.

I completely agree ziming makes sense for meng cun always has.

I have found being a shenmue fan far more depressing in some ways this week than the last 18 years people are so so negative.

 

[iknifaugood]

Yeah I've always expected that to be revealed in Mengcun. It would have been really weird finding that out now, in Bailu village. The pacing would have been all wrong imo.

Obviously. But what's the point in following the breadcrumb trail of where Iwao has been if we aren't going to learn more about him and/or Sunming Zhao along the way?

it would be real nice if you'd keep your opinion on the game separate from mine or anyone elses'. I've already told you what I liked about it.

My opinion has nothing to do with yours, I'm fascinated as to why anyone who liked Shenmue 2 could possibly consider this a worthy follow up and you haven't really explained why except to say things like "I like the characters. I like the plot." Why? How is the Niao Sun reveal an example of good storytelling in your estimation?

You can choose to be down on the sales or reviews if you wish, but I'm not seeing that at all. It's cracking best-sellers lists even when releasing in an absolutely stacked month.

Citation very much needed.

I don't want the reveal to plot points you've mentioned.

I mentioned the plot points that need to be covered for the story to end, those are obviously things that are going to be answered. My question is why you would want that stretched out to 6 games, but if you do then that's fine but don't make it seem like that's "good storytelling". It isn't. If you have nothing more to say on the subject then that's fine, you saying you want a story to drag on longer than it needs to is the same thing as people who say they like the English dub because it's bad. It's entirely lost on me.