SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[mjqjazzbar]

My problem with Shenmue 3, which Eyepatch Wolf also seems to agree with, is that you’re not rewarded for enduring these slow systems. You can train and train, but the combat is subpar by most standards even when you’re fully leveled. There are hardly any challenging fights as far as the main story goes. Sure you can fight in the Rose Garden, but why? You can win some money that gets you what exactly? Items that do nothing, can be displayed nowhere, and function as little more than tokens that’ll get you more money at the pawn shop. Training was extremely tedious and never evolved; I got to watch the same cutscene over and over again as I hit a wooden dummy, to learn a move I never actually got to use in a fight. What is the motivation here? To level up, yes, but they wrapped training up in tedious mini games that hardly have any gameplay.

You can take as long as you want in Bailu and Niaowu, but little changes in the environment, conversations with NPCs are little more than signposts, and the story goes nowhere. I didn’t want to talk to NPCs because I knew they had nothing interesting to tell me. I guess the weather changes slightly from day to day, but it felt like everything around me played out exactly the same no matter the day. The same pedestrians occupied the same parts of town, followed the same paths, etc. whether it was Sunday or Friday. Frankly, there was little in either area that made me feel like exploring.

In 2019, I just didn’t find the options available in this open world particularly compelling and only the satisfaction of continuing Ryo’s story kept my going. Unfortunately, we all know how that aspect of the game goes...We can blame some of these limitations on the budget, but I just think the issue is they should’ve never tried to make Shenmue 3 into an open world-like game. They couldn’t pull it off and compete with other modern games. If the writing had been stellar, all could’ve been forgiven; but it felt like writing was the biggest after thought of all.

 

[bcdcdude]

To be fair, that I do agree with that. I never fully appreciated the subtlety of how training in SI & II would reward you in time. That said, I think the use of training in SIII was a good idea; it's just a shame that the execution didn't pay off.

Am I right in thinking that the fighting system is the way it was due to budget constraints?

The tutorial was bollocks though.

 

[spud1897]

To be fair, that I do agree with that. I never fully appreciated the subtlety of how training in SI & II would reward you in time. That said, I think the use of training in SIII was a good idea; it's just a shame that the execution didn't pay off.

Am I right in thinking that the fighting system is the way it was due to budget constraints?

The tutorial was bollocks though.

Budget probably didnt help and I know they redid the engine partly because they wanted to make it more accessible. It's not far off IMO but needed more time and polishing.

As for the tutorial... was there even one

 

[Machsi]

It was a well constructed video and he made some tremendously good points. Do we really think Yu intended to make the 2nd learned super move identical to the Body Check? No, probably not. Probably due to not having time or budget, or both, to create an entire new cutscene/asset and took a convenient shortcut against his best wishes

 

[BalHan]

Sure you can fight in the Rose Garden, but why?

I felt like the Rose Garden was a missed opportunity. Just imagine what could have gone down here. It should have been better utilised.

For instance, Ryo could have encountered Lan Di’s henchmen in the Rose Garden and later, Ryo could have come face to face with Lan Di in the castle with no one else around.

I mean, the walk to the Rose Garden with music playing which perfectly sets the mood could only lead to a battle culminating in an epic cutscene where major bombshells are dropped on Ryo, right?

Er..no.

 

[code l name]

During the segment where he talks about getting money for the wine, I just had to laugh. How he explains it is so ridiculous, which, maybe it is. I never really had that big of a problem with money, mostly because I did work every in game day. That’s the big problem I have with his video. He talks about that experience as if it was designed to only work like that. There are so many different ways of making money in that game, and he focused on the most complicated method. But the rest of his points are very good, and illustrate some of the problems I also had with it, and probably what many other people had. The thing is, those problems don’t have to be game breakers. Sure, they can be annoying, but they can also be overlooked to a certain extent. Every person has their own opinion for wether or not they can enjoy it, even if there are a lot of flaws.

I couldn’t agree more and I had a similar reaction when watching that segment. Even though I was playing on hard difficulty, as I developed a pretty set routine when it came to both training and working jobs, along with herb collecting it never took long to achieve either paywall in Bailu or Niaowu. The reality is there was so many more options and activities in Shenmue 3 to earn money and it was much more varied than the prior two games combined.

That’s something I appreciated about the game was it gave you a certain amount of agency to choose which side activity you enjoyed the most. Chance based gambling wasn’t something I was really interesting so I mainly focused on wood chopping, fishing and herb collecting. I then added fighting at Rose Garden, fork lift driving and occasional game of Lucky Hit by the time I was in Niaowu.

Saying he isn’t playing the game as it was intended I always think is a lazy defence. However when it comes to earning money, there were more options than ever.

On related point as much grief as new additions like stamina meter get I also strongly feel herb collecting and the Choubu chan collecting don’t get the due credit they deserve. Both elements are integrated very well and fit nicely with Shenmue feel and mechanics we are accustomed too.

 

[Down by Law]

The whole point of training, the rose garden and the dojos is because its a game about Martial Arts. Studying Martial Arts in real life is extremely repetitive, and sparring to improve your abilities and gain higher belts is the payoff for your time served. I have been attending a local kickboxing class for almost four years and am now on my blue belt, or 5 out of 8 if you're unsure of the colours. I really like how Shenmue 3 gives incentives to spar and improve your character and by extension your ability to perform well in the fighting engine. On my 3rd playthrough to gain the platinum I jacked up the difficulty to the highest as I was breezing through fights, completely mastering the slow mo dodge and having my go to move commands fully leveled and committed to muscle memory. The fights have a lot of circling your opponent and waiting for the perfect time to strike, like real sparring, and I enjoyed that immensely. Is it a user friendly, intuitive and graceful combat system? No, it isn't. But you get out what you put in, like real martial arts.. In the video below, I sparred with the master from early afternoon to the evening, mastering the slow mo timing until I could pull off five in a row and beat him without getting hurt. It's a fun system that importantly, didn't disrespect my time and more importantly, improved 'my Ryo' levelling him up to become a force to be reckoned with. Contrast to my first playthrough on the normal difficulty where I got schooled over and over in the first proper fight against the two red spiders which made me question my ability or even consider lowering the difficulty. It's messy, it's not instantly gratifying like Arkham Knight where you can effortlessly dispatch a group of goons in an absurdly entertaining, cinematic style using only two buttons. And im glad they didn't try to compete with that as its the antithesis of a young martial artists' journey. Losing and having to spend money on food meant every fight had stakes in it and losing had proper repurcussions. Its implemented poorly in this game, the idea of eating 10 carrots so you can have another crack always makes me chuckle...but there's seeds here... of a wonderful combat engine and risk/reward mechanics that could be greatly fleshed out in a follow up. Throws are the obvious ones, but proper counters, full shoulder button modifiers so the input lag is removed and even betting money on the outcome against selectable opponents are just some off the top of my head... if we are lucky to see it that is - but I know clickbait, shockinging titled videos, no matter how good the meat of that content is, won't help us get there.

 

[code l name]

In the video below, I spared with the master from early afternoon to the evening, mastering the slow mo timing until I could pull off five in a row and beat him without getting hurt. It's a fun system that importantly, didn't disrespect my time and more importantly, improved 'my Ryo' levelling him up to become a force to be reckoned with.

Great post and video. I readily admit in my only playthrough to date I never dug too deep into the combat system outside training certain moves and ensuring I had a variety of assigned moves to bumpers for all types of combat situations. To say the combat has no depth is a little disingenuous as you have to mindful of spacing and constantly searching and probing for openings, which is much easier in the solo fights. Things get much messier when in group encounters.

Still it baffles my mind they hid the slow-mo mechanic behind being low on health. It’s a shame as it really should reward proficient players instead of being a measure of last resort. I do concur there’s basis of very competent system if they can add what you suggested along with better hit detection and accompanying animations.

 

[Rydeen]

You can train and train, but the combat is subpar by most standards even when you’re fully leveled. There are hardly any challenging fights as far as the main story goes.

The combat system is rather proficient really, and if you need more difficult fights, then raise the difficulty setting, or don't train as regularly. Problem solved. I am sure that people's understanding of the combat was often deficient, though. I know these days that's something that's pinned on the developers for not giving a proper tutorial on, but I really put it on the players for not experimenting enough with the system. That's basically what the combat tutorial tells you to do, in the first place.

Sure you can fight in the Rose Garden, but why? You can win some money that gets you what exactly?

You win tokens, and clearing the Rose Garden rewards the player with an exclusive move scroll (I don't believe it was available for purchase anywhere, but I don't recall exactly), as well as a couple other modes of entry. Also, if you wanted those more difficult fights, here they are.

Items that do nothing, can be displayed nowhere, and function as little more than tokens that’ll get you more money at the pawn shop.

Useless is kind of subjective I guess. Did you care about collecting everything in the first two games? Because those things are pretty much just as "useless." In Shenmue III you can actually get different clothing, buy all kinds of move scrolls, or find the items in order to get the trade-ins for move scrolls, and of course, you'll be needing to eat. Not everything in a game is about rewards, sometimes it's just about successfully managing resources. Doing that well is the "pay off."

Training was extremely tedious and never evolved; I got to watch the same cutscene over and over again as I hit a wooden dummy, to learn a move I never actually got to use in a fight. What is the motivation here? To level up, yes, but they wrapped training up in tedious mini games that hardly have any gameplay.

Maho and Keiho, are simply fundamentals of Kenpo/Bajiquan. The one-inch punch is not practical for combat. It's really only a demonstration of generating power in tight spaces. The process of going through these exercises logically adds to Ryo's stamina. Also, I'm relatively certain that the better one performs these, the faster Ryo's proficiency builds. So it actually "rewards" players for getting better at them, too.

I didn’t want to talk to NPCs because I knew they had nothing interesting to tell me.

That's unfortunate. The NPCs have a whole lot to say, and it varies quite frequently. To me, this sounds kind of like someone talking to the people walking along Dobuita a few times, noticing that they basically say the same thing endlessly, and then not really talking to any NPCs again.

 

[spud1897]

It was a well constructed video and he made some tremendously good points. Do we really think Yu intended to make the 2nd learned super move identical to the Body Check? No, probably not. Probably due to not having time or budget, or both, to create an entire new cutscene/asset and took a convenient shortcut against his best wishes

He actually said in the May IGN Japan interview that there wasn't going to be a segment with Sun in Bailu but they added it in when they got the extra funding. So it wasn't planned from the offset so then budget came into it in terms of the segment itself given the moves are very similar.

 

[BruceWayne911]

First and foremost I want to say I like Shenmue 3. With that out the way I agree with this guys video on Shenmue 3. I knew Shenmue 3 would have its compromises but it especially hurt when the story of the game was non existent. Most people here on the forum are saying that Shenmue will end with Shenmue 5. This makes me worry a little because Shenmue 3 barely did anything. Is Shenmue 4 and 5 going to be massive games with huge DLC expansions to flush out the story(I very much hope so). Shenmue 6 IMO would give enough room for story development but I do understand that 3 more games is very unrealistic.

It's hard for me to be ultra critical about Shenmue 3 because this franchise was dead for 15 years and at the very least we got something. Going forward there needs to be some obvious changes but please no more story compromises. I'll admit that I don't like seeing Shenmue get bad publicity but I can't condemn anything he said in his video it was pretty spot on.

I know on this forum Yu Suzuki is a "god" but it made me cringe to hear Yu say that he doesn't keep up with what's going on in the gaming industry. That was cool back in the day when Yu was actively making games but alot has changed since the early 2000s. I pray that someone on this forum or anyone who knows the heartbeat of the community can relay these concerns to Yu Suzuki. It's not for my sake because I'm already a die hard fan but if we want to see the conclusion there needs to be changes.

Again I do like Shenmue 3, let's finish this series the right way.

 

[Sonoshee]

I know on this forum Yu Suzuki is a "god" but it made me cringe to hear Yu say that he doesn't keep up with what's going on in the gaming industry.

If I recall correctly, Yu was given a "refreshers course" before Shenmue 3 development began by a couple of people who knew the ins-and-outs of modern gaming/development.

I'll try to find the source...

 

[Suzaku]

Harsh but well thought out criticisms from I guess now a former fan.

What do you think? This video is going to get popular unfortunately. I bet it'll get 3-500k views.


For the record, I've been a fan of his for a while and his previous Shenmue video was great.

Not going to waste time watching this video and adding to its counter.

But I think that he wasted his life yes, because he wasn't a fan to begin with.
And I expain why: no fans would make a clickbait video with the purpose to damage his beloved series future.
And it's ever more vile if you get money from your videos...

I don't understand why shenmue 3 haters all have this urge to tell other people to stay away from the game.
And why at the same time we don't see shenmue 3 lovers doing the same with some positive clickbait videos like "10 reason why shenmue 3 is good", "why you shouldn't miss shenmue 3" or a more simple and honest "why shenmue 3 haters are all idiots" etc.?

If it's not clear we are still under attack here, majority of people would not waste 40 minute to hear a rant from random youtuber, but lots of people will read the clickbait title, and if it become viral...

 

[BruceWayne911]

Not going to waste time watching this video and adding to its counter.

But I think that he wasted his life yes, because he wasn't a fan to begin with.
And I expain why: no fans would make a clickbait video with the purpose to damage his beloved series future.
And it's ever more vile if you get money from your videos...

I don't understand why shenmue 3 haters all have this urge to tell other people to stay away from the game.
And why at the same time we don't see shenmue 3 lovers doing the same with some positive clickbait videos like "10 reason why shenmue 3 is good", "why you shouldn't miss shenmue 3" or a more simple and honest "why shenmue 3 haters are all idiots" etc.?

If it's not clear we are still under attack here, majority of people would not waste 40 minute to hear a rant from random youtuber, but lots of people will read the clickbait title, and if it become viral...

I believe this guy was a fan. If you watch the video he breaks down all his gripes with the game. I will also admit that I hate to see the video. It's bad publicity for my favorite gaming franchise. This guy has over 850k subscribers, so this one is gonna sting a little.

 

[Suzaku]

I believe this guy was a fan. If you watch the video he breaks down all his gripes with the game. I will also admit that I hate to see the video. It's bad publicity for my favorite gaming franchise. This guy has over 850k subscribers, so this one is gonna sting a little.

Not going to watch.
I don't care if he made a few valid points, he lost me the moment he decided to use that clickbait title, knowing that he could make some direct damage to a series that he should love.

An honest fan that want to show his honest gripes about the game (even if any fan with a little brain knows that now it's not the time for this, with the series future at risk), would be more sensitive and discrete, there is no need to be a clown that desperately search for viewers and subscribers.
And I say it again, it only make him a vile person if he is damaging a once beloved series just for money.

 

[iknifaugood]

I pretty much totally agree with the content of the video, especially the final sentiments. I've been a fan of his for a while now and he was really able to articulate the frustration behind grinding for money and learning identical moves, so to address the defenses of this section of the video...

I couldn’t agree more and I had a similar reaction when watching that segment. Even though I was playing on hard difficulty, as I developed a pretty set routine when it came to both training and working jobs, along with herb collecting it never took long to achieve either paywall in Bailu or Niaowu. The reality is there was so many more options and activities in Shenmue 3 to earn money and it was much more varied than the prior two games combined.

Establishing a daily routine where you get a job and earn money is not a thing in S1 and 2. The forklift job is a very small portion of S1 that lasts a set amount of time, beyond that, Ryo exclusively earns money passively. In S2, you need to earn a comparatively small amount of money to see Ren and to buy into the fights in Kowloon--definitely not something that necessitates a daily routine. So why is earning money through minigame jobs such a huge part of S3 in the first place? That's where the criticism mostly stems from.

That’s something I appreciated about the game was it gave you a certain amount of agency to choose which side activity you enjoyed the most.

But you've just said... they're side activities. Why are they given so much importance to the main story?

but I know clickbait, shockinging titled videos, no matter how good the meat of that content is, won't help us get there.

Well the way he ends the video, he doesn't expect Shenmue to get another chance (and heavily implies that he no longer cares if it does) so I can forgive the clickbaity title. Plus, we're almost a year out from release so I doubt this video is going to affect things one way or the other.

I know these days that's something that's pinned on the developers for not giving a proper tutorial on, but I really put it on the players for not experimenting enough with the system. That's basically what the combat tutorial tells you to do, in the first place.

It's actually a problem with the game not having a deep enough combat system to encourage/incentivize experimentation, which is what he states in the video when comparing it to the original games. Plenty of games lack adequate tutorials and hand holding but reward experimentation (From Software games come to mind) and are not criticized for it because their systems are designed that way.

 

[iknifaugood]

An honest fan that want to show his honest gripes about the game (even if any fan with a little brain knows that now it's not the time for this, with the series future at risk), would be more sensitive and discrete, there is no need to be a clown that desperately search for viewers and subscribers.
And I say it again, it only make him a vile person if he is damaging a once beloved series just for money.

He has 867K subscribers and the video got over 350K views in 2 days. His last video praising Shenmue has over 500K views. He is not relying on shitting on Shenmue for money, nor is he "desperate" for viewers and subscribers. He makes it clear during his review that he does not think the series will continue past this point and implies that he no longer cares if it does, which is the reason for the clickbaity title. Definitely worth a watch because he argues honestly, with evidence, and from a position as someone who obviously loved S1 and 2.

 

[WuyingRen]

... he argues honestly...

I must have missed that part...

 

[iknifaugood]

The ending suggested in this video was terrible compared to what we got. It goes against everything we know about Lan Di’s persona and whilst I’m not against Lan Di eventually showing remorse for his actions (in fact, I hope this is what his arc is eventually leading towards), for it to occur without any significant trigger would be cheap and completely destroy all of the work done to portray Lan Di as a cold and calculated killer with no real pay off.

I don't think he intended for his alternate ending to be a serious suggestion (more of a thought experiment given the ridiculous restrictions he places on what can be changed), his issue was with the fact that Ryo and Lan Di are in the exact same spot at the end of the game as the beginning, which is why he has to enter the fan fic zone of assuming Lan Di is going to be a conflicted villain. One of the things I actually like about S3 is how the story is treated as if no time has passed (because it hasn't) and his ending falls victim to the mentality of paying something off for the audience simply because a lot of time has passed for them. My issue is that the Ryo/Lan Di fight should not have been the ending, rather than how it played out.

 

[Suzaku]

He has 867K subscribers and the video got over 350K views in 2 days. His last video praising Shenmue has over 500K views. He is not relying on shitting on Shenmue for money, nor is he "desperate" for viewers and subscribers. He makes it clear during his review that he does not think the series will continue past this point and implies that he no longer cares if it does, which is the reason for the clickbaity title.

That's fine, than why he can't simply move on?
There are other people still interested in the series, and he should have respect for the rest of community that it's still fighting.

He even wasted more time making a video for a game that he didn't like, is it normal? He probably has some problems, judging also by the clickbait title "wasted my life".

Or he is just making it for the money, don't know which is worse.
Thinking about it, Shenmue 3 made a real purge of the fake-shenmue fans...