What a disappointment

I think the Suzuki's issue is that he falls victim to scope creep. Jim Sterling mentions this a bit in his latest video that Kickstarter devs basically get eyes bigger than their stomachs when they see the money rolling in.
Plenty of less experienced devs have had successful Kickstarters and avoided such problems (Hat in Time, Darkest Dungeon, Shovel Knight, Divinity Original Sin). Again, setting feature creep aside, what are we left with in a game that's supposedly been planned out for 20+ years?

Suzuki himself said that if he could have he would have added physics to make the ramen noodles soften in water.
Jesus fucking Christ.

Thing is, they had early dev footage of Baisha running before it was scrapped. They had it before even showing anything about Niaowu so I'm not sure what happened. Especially since all of the story elements regarding the Chi You Men seemed to revolve around Baisha it would have made sense to cut Niaowu instead. Was it just hubris on Suzuki's part to think he could fit it all in with the budget he had?
It wouldn't make sense to scrap Baisha in favor of creating a brand new area in the form of the castle if they had work finished for it. I can't square the circle of Baisha/Niaowu, I've never seen any footage from Baisha so I always assumed that it was cut relatively early on and the important bits were re-purposed to the castle area (Niao Sun getting the mirror, the fight with Lan Di etc.).
 
*sigh* I know it isn't a real place.

I meant 6 is partly in chapter 5 (which is what this game is, as Niaowu is supposed to still be in Guilin), with the introduction of Niao Sun and the addition of YanLang.

Location may be different, but content-wise, 6 is definitely Niaowu.
 
Plenty of less experienced devs have had successful Kickstarters and avoided such problems (Hat in Time, Darkest Dungeon, Shovel Knight, Divinity Original Sin). Again, setting feature creep aside, what are we left with in a game that's supposedly been planned out for 20+ years?


Jesus fucking Christ.


It wouldn't make sense to scrap Baisha in favor of creating a brand new area in the form of the castle if they had work finished for it. I can't square the circle of Baisha/Niaowu, I've never seen any footage from Baisha so I always assumed that it was cut relatively early on and the important bits were re-purposed to the castle area (Niao Sun getting the mirror, the fight with Lan Di etc.).
It was only in alpha but they had some of it running: See here.

*sigh* I know it isn't a real place.

I meant 6 is partly in chapter 5 (which is what this game is, as Niaowu is supposed to still be in Guilin), with the introduction of Niao Sun and the addition of YanLang.

Location may be different, but content-wise, 6 is definitely Niaowu
Apologies, I didn't mean to come across as patronizing.

You are correct. However, the whole chapter structure doesn't really hold up strictly anymore. Suzuki has said
Shenmue 3 is a mix of chapters 3 - 6. It seems the story was sliced up and sprinkled around but some elements from 6 were included though I don't think that much. Niao Sun is also shown in the chapter 5 card and Yanlang in Chapter 4 so it as likely to be their introductions earlier in the story.

If anything I've always thought that Niaowu was supposed to be a fill in for the Suzhou chapter (card 4).
 
It was only in alpha but they had some of it running: See here.
That doesn't seem like much of anything. If that's as far as they got when it was cut, then they basically cut it at the beginning of development.

I meant 6 is partly in chapter 5 (which is what this game is, as Niaowu is supposed to still be in Guilin), with the introduction of Niao Sun and the addition of YanLang.

Location may be different, but content-wise, 6 is definitely Niaowu.
As far as I'm concerned the chapters are irrelevant at this point, Shenmue 3 doesn't even have chapter headings in the notebook like S2. Until Yu Suzuki clarifies what constitutes a chapter and how many are left, we're literally just guessing based on concept art from over 20 years ago. According to Suzuki, he intended to finish Shenmue in 4 or 5 games meaning that S4 could potentially be the end for the series; I highly doubt he's going to try to cram 5 areas all over China into 1 game (or even 2 for that matter) considering how little ground has been covered thus far.
 
Sadly, i'm more inclined to agree with the bad rewiews, than the good ones. I think the good ones aren't made by real real hardcore fans. And i feel awful cause this.
 
What if instead of Shenmue 4 they released the next story gameplay as DLC? It might be cheaper and faster to do it in DLC chunks, each new city would be a DLC. I'd be fine with that.

I really don't want to encourage the industry by giving games in chunks. I recently got backhanded by Life Is Strange 2 on the same matter - I was waiting to get a Physical Edition with all the content on disc, only to have them release a Physical Edition with the last Episode as a download code... no, I'm still not over it.
 
What if instead of Shenmue 4 they released the next story gameplay as DLC? It might be cheaper and faster to do it in DLC chunks, each new city would be a DLC. I'd be fine with that.
I understand why people bring this up but I don't think it would work.

I mean these guys had to cut an entire region from the game due to budget&time constraints.. This is after having a record breaking kickstarter campaign, an E3 stage reveal, a slackerbacker campaign, Deep Silver publishing and Epic Games paid exclusivity. And still (presumably) came out with relatively low sales outside of kickstarter.

Even if they proposed a $30 DLC for a single location and a 10 hour story.. Well, who would buy it? You can't hype a DLC for a game with low sales, let alone a game that has received so much mainstream notoriety this past year. Hell, only a chunk of actual Shenmue 3 owners would even bother anyway.
 
What if instead of Shenmue 4 they released the next story gameplay as DLC? It might be cheaper and faster to do it in DLC chunks, each new city would be a DLC. I'd be fine with that.
I'd be fine with this too. It's clear that Shenmue is as popular as it's going to be barring some kind of unforeseen influx of money so it makes sense for them to steadily drip feed content, it can even be priced higher to better cover the costs. I'd pay a premium (say $60/chapter) if it guaranteed the end of the series.

I really don't want to encourage the industry by giving games in chunks. I recently got backhanded by Life Is Strange 2 on the same matter - I was waiting to get a Physical Edition with all the content on disc, only to have them release a Physical Edition with the last Episode as a download code... no, I'm still not over it.
I agree but I'm also not a fan of famous game designers begging for money with high profile Kickstarters as a general rule.

Even if they proposed a $30 DLC for a single location and a 10 hour story.. Well, who would buy it? You can't hype a DLC for a game with low sales, let alone a game that has received so much mainstream notoriety this past year. Hell, only a chunk of actual Shenmue 3 owners would even bother anyway.
So how is the series going to continue? The idea of another Kickstarter is insane and Suzuki evidently had no plans to secure financing for the future of the series despite the most successful videogame Kickstarter ever. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering what you think the way forward is?
 
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So how is the series going to continue? The idea of another Kickstarter is insane and Suzuki evidently had no plans to secure financing for the future of the series despite the most successful videogame Kickstarter ever. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering what you think the way forward is?
The best chance they have for Shenmue 4 is with a brand new game that is funded by both gamers and investment partners..
But both of those things are going to be pretty tough to do now post-Shenmue 3 and hope for a budget as large as 3's is slim.

Honestly, from a budget/narrative perspective... I'd rather we just get an anime reboot with a 24 episode season for each game. But hey, I also understand why people wouldn't want that.. this is just me voicing my frustrations with the declining writing standards of the series and wholeheartedly believing that things will only get worse from here.
 
The best chance they have for Shenmue 4 is with a brand new game that is funded by both gamers and investment partners..
But both of those things are going to be pretty tough to do now post-Shenmue 3 and hope for a budget as large as 3's is slim.

Honestly, from a budget/narrative perspective... I'd rather we just get an anime reboot with a 24 episode season for each game. But hey, I also understand why people wouldn't want that.. this is just me voicing my frustrations with the declining writing standards of the series and wholeheartedly believing that things will only get worse from here.
I'd be fine with more comic books like in Shenmue 2.
 
Plenty of less experienced devs have had successful Kickstarters and avoided such problems (Hat in Time, Darkest Dungeon, Shovel Knight, Divinity Original Sin). Again, setting feature creep aside, what are we left with in a game that's supposedly been planned out for 20+ years?
Divinity Original Sin had financial problems according to an interview with the founder Swen Vincke. He was tired of publishers making decisions and didn't want to compromise this time. Kickstarter got them almost 1 million USD, the planned budget was 3 million but eventually they needed 4-5 million. He then took a risk asking for a personal bank loan so they could finish the game. His company also stopped paying VAT eventually and got blacklisted by the Belgian government. He wasn't able to pay back the loan when the bank asked for it either.
He has also mentioned (and defended) that creators should be creative and that it's normal to fail at times because of that. According to him, mismanagement and mistakes have always been quite common but it's just more visible now.

From what I've seen, Kickstarter projects often get into trouble because they add more and more features to get closer to what the public expects from AAA games. They feel that they must do that to compete better in the market.


I'd rather we just get an anime reboot with a 24 episode season for each game.
I'd be fine with more comic books like in Shenmue 2.
Even if they make something like this I would really like to read a translation of the original scripts/novel too.
 
The best chance they have for Shenmue 4 is with a brand new game that is funded by both gamers and investment partners..
But both of those things are going to be pretty tough to do now post-Shenmue 3 and hope for a budget as large as 3's is slim.
Well if we're being that optimistic, the best chance for it is to start over with a AAA budget. Realistically, there's little chance for another successful KS especially after the controversy of the previous one, and almost zero chance that any partner will invest. I'm kind of stunned that he didn't factor this in when he was making S3; imo he should have found a way to secure the future of the series when it was riding high.

Honestly, from a budget/narrative perspective... I'd rather we just get an anime reboot with a 24 episode season for each game.
I'd rather get that than nothing but, to be frank, I would never watch 24 episodes of Shenmue 3-level storytelling. Animes are also still very expensive to produce so a manga/graphic novel is probably more realistic.

But hey, I also understand why people wouldn't want that.. this is just me voicing my frustrations with the declining writing standards of the series and wholeheartedly believing that things will only get worse from here.
Agreed. Even people on the dojo who excuse S3's story keep claiming that it's somehow due to the budget. Well, if S4 is gonna be working with a smaller budget, then how do you think the story is going to get better?
 
Divinity Original Sin had financial problems according to an interview with the founder Swen Vincke. He was tired of publishers making decisions and didn't want to compromise this time. Kickstarter got them almost 1 million USD, the planned budget was 3 million but eventually they needed 4-5 million. He then took a risk asking for a personal bank loan so they could finish the game. His company also stopped paying VAT eventually and got blacklisted by the Belgian government. He wasn't able to pay back the loan when the bank asked for it either.
He has also mentioned (and defended) that creators should be creative and that it's normal to fail at times because of that. According to him, mismanagement and mistakes have always been quite common but it's just more visible now.
This is interesting, I didn't know that. Most game devs are trash with money and games (especially bad ones) can quickly become a money pit as people scramble to fix mistakes, that's just the way it goes. My point was more what comes out the other end: Divinity is a good game and its sequel is even better and it had maybe half S3's budget (remember, S3 had outside investment in addition to KS and slacker backers so the total was likely north of $10M). If Suzuki needed to avoid taxes to make a better game then I would be all for that.

From what I've seen, Kickstarter projects often get into trouble because they add more and more features to get closer to what the public expects from AAA games. They feel that they must do that to compete better in the market.
Feature creep is a real thing but I fail to see how that meaningfully impacted S3. There are basic, fundamental things wrong with S3's story structure and writing that would still be there if there were fewer minigames and forklifts. Also, what was really added to S3 that would make it a victim of feature creep? It doesn't seem like there's that much to the game and, if anything, Suzuki wanting to implement a bonkers strategy game into Baisha would've been an example of feature creep.
 
Well if we're being that optimistic, the best chance for it is to start over with a AAA budget. Realistically, there's little chance for another successful KS especially after the controversy of the previous one, and almost zero chance that any partner will invest. I'm kind of stunned that he didn't factor this in when he was making S3; imo he should have found a way to secure the future of the series when it was riding high.


I'd rather get that than nothing but, to be frank, I would never watch 24 episodes of Shenmue 3-level storytelling. Animes are also still very expensive to produce so a manga/graphic novel is probably more realistic.


Agreed. Even people on the dojo who excuse S3's story keep claiming that it's somehow due to the budget. Well, if S4 is gonna be working with a smaller budget, then how do you think the story is going to get better?

hmmm.. If they had a hard time acquiring the funds for S3, how would you have suggested Yu go about procuring funds for the rest of the series at the time? Or, being slightly optimistic here, how do you know he didn’t? Fact is, we don’t know anything factual and this includes whether the budget for IV is significantly lower than it was for 3.
 
Even people on the dojo who excuse S3's story keep claiming that it's somehow due to the budget. Well, if S4 is gonna be working with a smaller budget, then how do you think the story is going to get better?

I think the logic most of us are applying is as they have engine, assets, models and systems created development of Shenmue 4 should be significantly faster and cheaper. Thus development funds and time could be utilized in other areas.
 
hmmm.. If they had a hard time acquiring the funds for S3, how would you have suggested Yu go about procuring funds for the rest of the series at the time? Or, being slightly optimistic here, how do you know he didn’t?
It's possible that he did try to secure funding for S4 (in fact I'm almost certain he at least made the attempt) but he was likely met with the reality that S3 would need to be a success post-launch, not just a success on Kickstarter. That being said, when faced with that reality do you:
A. Utilize the funds you have to finish the series with a minimized scope?
B. Attempt to make the game as mainstream and friendly to new players/critics as possible in an attempt to expand the audience?
C. Invest heavily in marketing/advertising to make sure the launch window of the game gets the proper eyeballs?
D. Spend the entire budget on production making the most compromised, alienating game in the series with no plan for the future?

I know there are no easy answers and each has its drawbacks, but it seems like this was the worst possible outcome if the goal was to finish the series (but that may not have been the goal).

Fact is, we don’t know anything factual and this includes whether the budget for IV is significantly lower than it was for 3.
I'm going based off the fact that the Kickstarter had several players pledging thousands of dollars, something that won't happen again unless he does another crowdfunding campaign, so where will that lost money come from? To say nothing of the fact that the hype around the game when it was announced had basically completely died out by the time it launched, so it seems unlikely that a fourth installment will be able to recapture it.
 
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