What Story Remains for Shenmue to End?

Just look at the mess that was MGS4, another fan service game where Hideo Kojima was forced to answer all the questions of the series.
MGS was incoherent long before MGS4, though I agree that attempting to explain everything did that story (or the pacing of it) no favors. MGS2 (which was supposed to be the last game) ends by stating the Patriots were dead for "about 100 years" and the next game retcons that. Even after MGS4, we got 2 games detailing Big Boss' fall after MGS3 perfectly explained it.

I compared it to the Matrix in a previous thread. After coming out of the theatre for Reloaded I was basically on the fence about it. Mostly because it was an unfinished film whose success depended on how the plot threads set up in played out in the sequel. Well we got Matrix Revolutions and GoT and Lost etc., etc.

I'm not saying it completely negates what came before it but it definitely takes away. I have no interest to go back and watch any of those series. I certainly wouldn't recommend them knowing how they play out.

The comparison of Shenmue to Lost isn't exactly apt, but it does make me feel like Lost all over again. This is not a good feeling for me.

Shenmue should not be looked at as a series but as a single story. More so since (apparently) this story was written and planned out from the beginning. Even though there have been revisions, I trust that Suzuki does know where he's going at least in broad strokes. This means that you can't really look at it as single installments as far as the story goes.
But that's because Reloaded and Revolutions were conceived after the Matrix. Matrix 1 still absolutely holds up and is totally self contained. I would say that Shenmue is closest to this and the Star Wars movies just because of the amount of time between installments. You have to view S1 and 2 as fundamentally separate from whatever comes after simply because of how much has changed between installments: they don't even have the same writers. You can point to Lucas having the Journal of the Whills planned out 40 years ago but that has about as much bearing on Star Wars and what happened in the prequels as Suzuki's original treatment has to do with Shenmue as it exists now. Obviously Shenmue is a little different in the sense that it's so reliant on backstory (I would imagine that whatever happened between Iwao and Sunming isn't subject to change) but I wouldn't expect it to function as a coherent narrative; the exact same way that Lucas' vision for what happened to Anakin and Obi Wan was basically unchanged but it barely makes sense in the context of the story.

(EDIT) Fun fact, there's actually less of a time gap between the Star Wars OT and prequels than there is between S2 and S3.

What I do expect from Shenmue going forward is for it to at least be interesting/compelling and to reveal a legitimately good story, if not an especially well-told story.

The things that were good about Shenmue 2 would fall flat if they didn't play out properly later on.
I don't think it's as reliant on sequels and payoffs as Lost is but certain things like Shenhua's powers, Ziming, and the Shenmue tree will definitely seem like Lost mysteries if they're not paid off properly.
 
Matrix 1 still absolutely holds up and is totally self contained
Kind of. It's hard for me to watch and not be reminded of the stupid things that came after and where the Wachowski's wanted to take the story (and what it was ultimately about). Star Wars feels a bit like this too but not as bad because the OT was a complete story onto itself for a long time and the PT and (especially) ST feel like separate stories added on. Harry Potter is another one where the original story was completed before she went back and started getting cuckoo with the spin offs so it doesn't feel as bad.

Shenmue isn't like this because it's not complete yet. What we get is the full and original story so it has to be looked at as a complete package to a certain extent. It's not like the story is finished and we get Shenmue 2.0 the adventures of Mark and Tom. Then at least Ryo's journey remains intact before we go to cuckooville.
What I do expect from Shenmue going forward is for it to at least be interesting/compelling and to reveal a legitimately good story, if not an especially well-told story.
I certainly hope so. I know it has the potential to be. However, I'm getting the vibes now that this may not be the case. Mostly because Suzuki himself doesn't seem as interested in it. It's like George Lucas talking about "laser swords". You get the impression that the fans care a lot more than the creator about his own work. Some of this might just be the nature of translation and the Japanese culture though.
I don't think it's as reliant on sequels and payoffs as Lost is but certain things like Shenhua's powers, Ziming, and the Shenmue tree will definitely seem like Lost mysteries if they're not paid off properly
I don't look at them as sequels in the story department. It's one story that is incomplete. A sequel would imply the story is finished and they made a new story following it up. If we don't get satisfying answers, or worse no answers, it would be a bad story. That includes S2.
 
Shenmue isn't like this because it's not complete yet.
You could make the argument that Star Wars also wasn't complete (it's episodes 4-6 of a "planned" 9, after all), even though I think the original movie holds up perfectly fine on its own and obviously the OT represents a much more complete story than what we have in Shenmue thus far. But Suzuki has hinted that things were forwarded to S2 to go out with a "bang" as they figured that was the last game they'd get to make, so who knows what butterfly effect that caused?

I certainly hope so. I know it has the potential to be. However, I'm getting the vibes now that this may not be the case. Mostly because Suzuki himself doesn't seem as interested in it. It's like George Lucas talking about "laser swords". You get the impression that the fans care a lot more than the creator about his own work. Some of this might just be the nature of translation and the Japanese culture though.
It's possible but there are certain things that are set up in the story that just have to have been planned out if you're going to even attempt a story like this. Unlike Lucas, who basically only had to show that Obi Wan and Anakin fought; Suzuki has an entire timeline of events that make up the backstory (ie: when Iwao was in China, where he went, what happened between him and Sunming, what happened to Lan Di, when the mirrors were made, who knows what about the mirrors/treasure and how they found out etc.) hints of which have been dropped in every game. The backstory is like Harry Potter or GoT in this regard; there's just no way to write those stories without the backstory of Snape, Lilly, James, and Tom or R +L = J at least somewhat mapped out, and if you try it's eventually going to become really obvious that it wasn't planned. So far Shenmue shows no signs of this with the possible exception of the mirrors.
 
I liked Lost all the way through and the ending was neat. I liked the Star Wars Prequels, especially Attack of the Clones. I like the new trilogy, especially The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker. I really liked the Matrix trilogy and The Animatrix especially. And I like Shenmue 3 a lot.

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I liked Lost all the way through and the ending was neat. I liked the Star Wars Prequels, especially Attack of the Clones. I like the new trilogy, especially The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker. I really liked the Matrix trilogy and The Animatrix especially. And I like Shenmue 3 a lot.

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Lemme guess: You also liked the ending to Game of Thrones and Jared Leto is your favorite Joker? /s

You're allowed to like whatever you want. I like Lost pretty much up to the ending, I'm indifferent to the Prequels although I've never understood the love for RotS (AoC is better), the sequel trilogy is all over the place but has its moments, Matrix 1 is great, 2 is good, 3 is terrible, Animatrix is awesome. And I don't like Shenmue 3.
 
There are definitely still a lot of unanswered questions regarding the story of Shenmue and personally I doubt all of them will be answered even if the series reaches the end, but here are the ones that I recall haven't been answered yet.

What happened between Ywao and Sunming Zhao in Meng Cun !?

Did Ywao really kill Sunming Zhao !?

Why were the Mirrors created !?

What treasure will the Mirrors reveal !?

Why were they locked away in the Cliff Temple !?

Why do the Chiyou Men want the treasure !?

Is the Legend told by Master Chen true !?

Why were Giant replicas of the Mirrors carved in the quarry !?

Who is exactly Shenhua !?

What is exactly the Shemue tree !?

Who is the real leader of the Chiyou Men !?

Who is Xiuying's brother !?

What exactly does Shenhua's prophecy really mean !?


These are the questions that I recall still haven't been answered.
 
My main question, is Lan Di really the evil villain that he's portrayed to be?
I don't think so. We know that he was taken in by the CYM at a young age so they've likely trained and twisted him to where he is today. I'd love the backstory here, what did they do, how did the sell it to him, how did they manipulate him?

My personal view is that both him and Ziming will redeem themselves along the way. Don't ask me how, just a hunch.
 
I don't think so. We know that he was taken in by the CYM at a young age so they've likely trained and twisted him to where he is today. I'd love the backstory here, what did they do, how did the sell it to him, how did they manipulate him?

My personal view is that both him and Ziming will redeem themselves along the way. Don't ask me how, just a hunch.

The ending of Shenmue III pretty much spells a redemption arc for Lan Di. Especially since it's speculated that Iwao did not kill Sunming Zhao. The interesting part of IV is the in-fighting between Chiyoumen leaders (Lan Di and Niao Sun). Ryo is going to be forced to pick a side to ally himself with and all signs point to Lan Di. I'm praying that we get a decent explanation on how this happens and not a sudden lead up to that moment.

Yu Suzuki has been on record saying that Lan Di is the most misunderstood character in Shenmue and I think that's by design.
 
I'm not sure Lan Di wil lend up sympathetic (although he may). It seems with Shenmue 3 that he is firmly the villain of this series. He may be a more nuanced character, which I'm hopeful for, but he still killed Iwao and doesn't seem to be remorseful for it in anyway.

Besides that the series needs a main villain to be overcome. Yes there could be Tentei or some other but the introduction of a new villain so late wouldn't work if Lan Di becomes good.

But we'll see how it plays out.
 
I don't think so. We know that he was taken in by the CYM at a young age so they've likely trained and twisted him to where he is today. I'd love the backstory here, what did they do, how did the sell it to him, how did they manipulate him?

My personal view is that both him and Ziming will redeem themselves along the way. Don't ask me how, just a hunch.
This is what I've been thinking since I finished S3. If Ziming hasn't been retconned completely, that is.
 
The ending of Shenmue III pretty much spells a redemption arc for Lan Di.
How so? I got the opposite impression. The only possible paths to "redemption" he has is if he realizes that Iwao had both mirrors and didn't use them, thus re contextualizing Iwao's motivations in his mind, or if Lan Di goes "lol my bad it was all a giant whoopsie" (to reiterate, if Lan Di killed Iwao because of some misunderstanding or lie, that would be really stupid and the least interesting version of events).

Yes there could be Tentei or some other but the introduction of a new villain so late wouldn't work if Lan Di becomes good.
This is so similar to Star Wars that I hope it doesn't happen simply for that reason. So Lan Di was lied to by Tentei into committing a heinous act and following the path of evil but will realize the truth and redeem himself by turning on his former master? That's actually less compelling than Star Wars! At least in SW, Vader doesn't redeem himself by realizing he was lied to, he witnesses his son being killed by the Emperor and it sparks the last remaining humanity inside him. Also, this is going to be basically impossible to set up properly if S4 is the last game.

This is what I've been thinking since I finished S3. If Ziming hasn't been retconned completely, that is.
It's weird that Ryo has the amulet in his inventory if this is the case. Then again it's weird that almost none of the story threads from the previous games carry over to S3 so who knows? I would certainly be surprised if Ziming was cut, though technically that wouldn't be a retcon (for Ziming to be truly retconned, Xiuying would have to show up and be like "what brother?" or something).

My personal view is that both him and Ziming will redeem themselves along the way. Don't ask me how, just a hunch.
See Ziming is an example of a character whose redemption arc has been set up. I could easily see him demonstrating the path that Ryo could fall toward and instead being rescued from that path by Ryo. Lan Di nearly breaks Ryo's arm before promising to reunite him with his father, who he beat to death, who also knew Lan Di was coming and who had property that belonged to Lan Di's father. All of that gets undermined if Lan Di magically becomes good.

Bear in mind, I'm not suggesting that Lan Di be some mustache twiriling villain, I still want him to have depth and motivations that make sense (which he already has), I just think he works better as foil for Ryo the way the story is going thus far, like Gus from Breaking Bad.
 
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See Ziming is an example of a character whose redemption arc has been set up. I could easily see him demonstrating the path that Ryo could fall toward and instead being rescued from that path by Ryo. Lan Di nearly breaks Ryo's arm before promising to reunite him with his father, who he beat to death, who also knew Lan Di was coming and who had property that belonged to Lan Di's father. All of that gets undermined if Lan Di magically becomes good.

Bear in mind, I'm not suggesting that Lan Di be some mustache twiriling villain, I still want him to have depth and motivations that make sense (which he already has), I just think he works better as foil for Ryo the way the story is going thus far, like Gus from Breaking Bad.
What might be a good shout is that, assuming it turns out Iwao did kill Sunming Zhao (for good just for this purpose) is that Lan Di see's that but quite frankly doesn't care for it. He's CYM through and through, they raised him after Iwao took away what was special to him, they gave him a reason to live and a chance at revenge. So he won't throw that away for the bigger picture of why his father died because, over time he has become one with the CYM message/motivations. Therefore it gives us an explanation of what happened but also positions Lan Di as he always has been, the villain.

And here's an interesting thought.... how do we know that Lan Di doesn't already know that Iwao did kill Sunming and therefore isn't acting under anything other than orders and desire for revenge. He says "do you remember Zhao Sunming" in Shenmue 1 and Iwao responds "it can't be... you!" Who says he wasn't an eye witness to it, the CYM came and got him and the rest is history as they say. I'd love a proper Lan-Di backstory in the next game(s).
 
This is so similar to Star Wars that I hope it doesn't happen simply for that reason. So Lan Di was lied to by Tentei into committing a heinous act and following the path of evil but will realize the truth and redeem himself by turning on his former master? That's actually less compelling than Star Wars! At least in SW, Vader doesn't redeem himself by realizing he was lied to, he witnesses his son being killed by the Emperor and it sparks the last remaining humanity inside him. Also, this is going to be basically impossible to set up properly if S4 is the last game.
Star Wars was what I was thinking of when I wrote that. I know that Vader is redeemed in the end but as you say it's because of Luke not because he felt manipulated by the emperor. Also, no one watches the OT and thinks that Palpatine is the villain, Vader has always been the main antagonist.

Introducing Tentei is fine, it makes sense for there to be a big boss of the CYM, but it doesn't make sense for him to be the main villain because Ryo has no personal beef with him. If anything I can see him being defeated before Lan Di; it would add a nice symmetry to the story that way.
What might be a good shout is that, assuming it turns out Iwao did kill Sunming Zhao (for good just for this purpose) is that Lan Di see's that but quite frankly doesn't care for it. He's CYM through and through, they raised him after Iwao took away what was special to him, they gave him a reason to live and a chance at revenge. So he won't throw that away for the bigger picture of why his father died because, over time he has become one with the CYM message/motivations. Therefore it gives us an explanation of what happened but also positions Lan Di as he always has been, the villain.
This is my thought as well. I think Ziming and Lan Di are meant to be foils for Ryo. Ziming may mot have had his kick the dog moment yet so he can be redeemed (like Ryo) but Lan Di would represent what Ryo would become if he took revenge, it's too late for story purposes for Lan Di to fully redeem himself.

While Ryo will give up his lust for revenge I can't see him personally forgiving Lan Di especially if the history with their fathers turns out to be in Iwao's favour.
 
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So he won't throw that away for the bigger picture of why his father died because, over time he has become one with the CYM message/motivations. Therefore it gives us an explanation of what happened but also positions Lan Di as he always has been, the villain.
This is incredibly important to emphasize because Lan Di did kill Iwao out of revenge for Sunming Zhao, but he also has other motivations. Lan Di wants the mirrors and he wants them for (presumably) the same reasons that the CYM want them, so even if it turns out that Iwao didn't kill Sunming Zhao, Lan Di is still a villain working for an evil organization that needs to be stopped.

And here's an interesting thought.... how do we know that Lan Di doesn't already know that Iwao did kill Sunming and therefore isn't acting under anything other than orders and desire for revenge. He says "do you remember Zhao Sunming" in Shenmue 1 and Iwao responds "it can't be... you!" Who says he wasn't an eye witness to it
Exactly. Worth noting that Iwao doesn't try and claim that he didn't kill Sunming Zhao, Lan Di says he'll allow him to die like a warrior and we find out that Iwao has a letter saying he's ready to die for following the path of the warrior. I always thought the "die like a warrior" line was going to make a comeback at some point. We'll see, I guess.

Also, no one watches the OT and thinks that Palpatine is the villain, Vader has always been the main antagonist.
Exactly, because that's who Luke's story revolves around; same with Shenmue.

Introducing Tentei is fine, it makes sense for their to be a big boss of the CYM, but it doesn't make sense for him to be the main villain because Ryo has no personal beef with him. If anything I can see him being defeated before Lan Di; it would add a nice symmetry to the story that way.
I like this structure a lot. It would show Lan Di at his weakest (the CYM are beaten, the good guys have the mirrors, the day has been saved) and Ryo finally beats Lan Di in a fight but doesn't kill him. The difficulty in writing Shenmue is that Ryo has justifiable reasons for wanting to kill Lan Di beyond revenge--the fate of the world potentially hangs in the balance.
 
Lan Di is definitely a villian in my eyes, but i reckon there's a massive reason in his back story why he's like that. I think once Ryo finds that out and understands it, he'll have a change of heart. That along with him moving past revenge in general and not going down the darkpath.

Since ziming is not a chiyou leader, i reckon he will be Ryo's main teacher in the Shenmue series. I think Ryo is going to get destroyed again by Lan di and the chiyou, or something will trigger in him that he needs proper training.

From there, ziming will train him for a year or so, we'll have a time skip and shenmue 5 will kick off post time skip with Ryo as a much better martial artist.
 
Percentage wise, the first three games only cover 40% of Ryo's story, according to Suzuki-san. This means that the future installments will most definitely be much longer than Shenmue 3. If only two more games are released, that means a huge 30% part, which will likely take weeks, if not months to complete.
 
I could just imagine Ziming being directly under Niao Sun, who Ryo confronts and brutally beats him close to death since he no longer serves a purpose to her. Ziming is just observing the fight and near the end, Niao Sun says she bored and that she'll leave it to Ziming to finish off. He slowly walks up to Ryo, about to do the deed, when he notices Ryo's almost lifeless body clutching onto Xiuying's pendant with his last ounce of strength.
 
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