What Story Remains for Shenmue to End?

[otbr87]

To hell with the mirrors and Ryo vs Lan Di, we need more arcade games, casino activity, side missions of searching for a cute fat kid and at least 15 hours of forklift driving. Give us 5 minutes of storyline progression so we can keep this up until the Sega Dreamcast 2 comes out.

In all seriousness, I really want to see what the significance of the mirrors are. What is the relationship between Ryo and Shenhua, as well as how Lan Di factors into their relationship. I want to see if Ryo will take revenge or learn from the situation and rise above. If Shenhua has any special powers or not. Though I find the ChiYouMen to be less important, there still needs to be some 'aha!' moment with why they are after the power that the mirrors have. I'd like to see Shenhua visit Ryo's home for a valid reason, even if only in a cutscene and for some reason I feel it would be important to end the story in front of the Shenmue tree at Shenhuas house and find out what it's significance is to the story that is named after it. I'd love to see it wrap up in Shenmue 4 personally.

 

[Arcadio]

The most important thing for me is the relationship between Ryo and Nozomi.It would be great to see them become a couple.

 

[SB00]

Barry Jones will encounter the man he met in Sapporo last year

 

[iknifaugood]

why have a four toed statue, a guy that turns into smoke and can shape shift into the dead, the voices, the sickness, time travel, the others have super powers (sometimes), the numbers, magical healing (sometimes), why was Walt special etc.

I would suggest that the biggest difference is that Suzuki was routinely seen with 16 manuscripts and clearly had some idea of the story planned out, whereas that's just not how TV shows are written, especially when Lost was first starting and they didn't even have an end point. TV shows are primarily designed (especially back then) to get you to watch more. But, to defend Lost for a sec, most of the things you point out at least facilitated plot development and storylines; they may not have been explained, but they made certain episodes possible. So far, Shenhua has super powers and an ancient destiny for absolutely no reason.

Even Breaking Bad wasn't planned out; they would routinely back the characters into no-win scenarios and then figure out how to get them out if it later (though it's obviously a more realistic show). Shenmue seems to be more like Harry Potter, where the broad strokes were there from the beginning.

I should add that Suzuki wrote all of the main characters dialogue and all of the main scenes for S3 PERSONALLY. He delegated the NPC town dialogue to others but he still oversaw it. Shenmue 3 is what Suzuki wanted, it's what he wrote himself. If you are expecting a higher degree of storytelling going forward you're in for a big surprise.

If that's true that's very concerning, although I can't imagine how he would have had time to write all that Ryo/Shenhua dialogue.

 

[iknifaugood]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Shenhua's father ever explain why he was carving those two huge mirrors ?

As far as S3 tells us, the relief in the quarry was carved over several generations. Yuan's grandfather was given the designs by the emperor (which, we're told, represents the emperor and empress' will) and carved the mirrors out of phantom river stone. As far as I can remember, we're given no motivation for why they carved the relief, or why it was kept from Shenhua, or why they hid it behind a magic mechanism requiring the sword of seven stars. We're also given no reason why the emperor wanted the mirrors carved out of phantom river stone specifically.

Though I find the ChiYouMen to be less important, there still needs to be some 'aha!' moment with why they are after the power that the mirrors have.

I'm really confused by this atm. S3 seems to confirm that the treasure is money: Elder Yeh specifically says it's the emperor's treasure and there's a picture of a pile of gold on the scroll. What do the CYM want with money? They hang out in palaces, have branded helicopters, and an army of bodyguards. If it's what Zhu said and the treasures "were hidden away to revive the Qing dynasty" then why were they hidden 1 year before it ended? How would money revive the dynasty? I don't think the CCP cares about a bunch of gold dug out of a mountain... Furthermore, why would Iwao care so much about preventing the CYM from getting their hands on money that he would risk his life (and potentially his whole family's) by bringing the mirrors to Japan?

 

[hmjohnny]

Do we have any interviews as such that state this or is this an assumption, I can't find any. Admittedly I've only had a quick look

I ask because there's two script writers credited in the end credits if the game and they surely would have scripted things with Yu Suzuki. He wouldn't have had the time to do that and manage a project.

Here is the interview where he states it. It's in Japanese so the translation isn't that accurate but you can get what he means. It's under the director/screenplay section of the interview. Btw @Rydeen was the one who originally linked it in the ask the developers questions threads.

 

[hmjohnny]

I would suggest that the biggest difference is that Suzuki was routinely seen with 16 manuscripts and clearly had some idea of the story planned out, whereas that's just not how TV shows are written, especially when Lost was first starting and they didn't even have an end point. TV shows are primarily designed (especially back then) to get you to watch more. But, to defend Lost for a sec, most of the things you point out at least facilitated plot development and storylines; they may not have been explained, but they made certain episodes possible. So far, Shenhua has super powers and an ancient destiny for absolutely no reason.

Even Breaking Bad wasn't planned out; they would routinely back the characters into no-win scenarios and then figure out how to get them out if it later (though it's obviously a more realistic show). Shenmue seems to be more like Harry Potter, where the broad strokes were there from the beginning.

Yes I get it's a different medium and it wasn't planned out. The point being that these ideas may not be so central to the story of the Shenmue as you think. Just like thinking the writers put all of these ideas on their show with no real payoff or idea of where it was going.

Even HP which was somewhat planned out had a lot of things added as time went on. I don't think JK knew about the Horcruxes when she was writing the early books.

Also, Shenmue has been rewritten a bunch already, we don't know how much it's following the original story anymore. Baisha wasn't even in the original chapters, and now it has been cut out completely.

As far as I can remember, we're given no motivation for why they carved the relief, or why it was kept from Shenhua, or why they hid it behind a magic mechanism requiring the sword of seven stars. We're also given no reason why the emperor wanted the mirrors carved out of phantom river stone specifically.

We will never get answers to these now. We left Bailu and I don't think Yuan is coming back to answer them. This is what I mean about the argument that just because they put it in the story means it will have a payoff.

I'm really confused by this atm. S3 seems to confirm that the treasure is money: Elder Yeh specifically says it's the emperor's treasure and there's a picture of a pile of gold on the scroll. What do the CYM want with money? They hang out in palaces, have branded helicopters, and an army of bodyguards. If it's what Zhu said and the treasures "were hidden away to revive the Qing dynasty" then why were they hidden 1 year before it ended? How would money revive the dynasty? I don't think the CCP cares about a bunch of gold dug out of a mountain... Furthermore, why would Iwao care so much about preventing the CYM from getting their hands on money that he would risk his life (and potentially his whole family's) by bringing the mirrors to Japan?

It's definitely not a monetary treasure. I still think it is something supernatural and S3 was misdirection on that part. We have no idea what the power of mirrors are. Unfortunately S3 missed the opportunity to raise the stakes so everyone thinks Shenmue is still about revenge.

 

[spud1897]

Here is the interview where he states it. It's in Japanese so the translation isn't that accurate but you can get what he means. It's under the director/screenplay section of the interview. Btw @Rydeen was the one who originally linked it in the ask the developers questions threads.

Legend thank you.

 

[iknifaugood]

We will never get answers to these now. We left Bailu and I don't think Yuan is coming back to answer them. This is what I mean about the argument that just because they put it in the story means it will have a payoff.

Well it's possible that phantom river stone was only meant as a breadcrumb to lead to Guilin. It's also possible that, if there's something supernatural involved, it comes from something else that has yet to be introduced. It's also possible that the relief is simply meant to coincide with Shenhua and Ryo's meeting (ie: the "time of destiny"), Yuan seems to know that Ryo will arrive with the Phoenix mirror days before he does. This is what I mean when I say that S3 doesn't really do anything to break the established plot (it also doesn't enhance it, and I doubt anything I learned in S3 will enrich a playthrough of S1 and 2 the way that S1 is greatly enriched after playing 2).

The problem with a mystery story like Shenmue is that we don't know what's a red herring and what's actually important. In GoT, it was more than possible to predict Jon Snow's parentage because that was set up; there's nothing to set up Shenhua's parentage (at best it's possible that she's of royal heritage, though this has, uh, awkward implications). Similarly, there's nothing at all in GoT to accurately predict the secrets of the White Walkers, but there was plenty of reason to assume that the picture of Iwao in Bailu Village was of him and Sunming. What concerns me about S3 is that it didn't resolve anything and it also didn't set anything up. "Niao Sun gets the Phoenix Mirror and Ryo loses to Lan Di, now Ryo, Shenhua and Ren chase the CYM to the Cliff Temple." I'm pretty sure if you played S1 and 2 and jumped straight to 4, you could read that sentence and skip S3 entirely, because you'd have the exact same questions as someone who played S3.

It's definitely not a monetary treasure. I still think it is something supernatural and S3 was misdirection on that part. We have no idea what the power of mirrors are. Unfortunately S3 missed the opportunity to raise the stakes

I really think they can go either way with the treasure at this point. S3 seems to do everything in its power to sap everything supernatural from the series beyond paying lip service to Shenhua's abilities.

(EDIT) That being said, there's just no way around introducing a character like Shenhua, who has superpowers, in an otherwise fairly realistic story, without explaining it. If that was YS' intention, then he wrote a bad story.

Another issue to consider is that Suzuki has made concessions to Chinese censors in S3, displaying an alarming lack of understanding of what rural China looked like in 1987 as well as what the culture was like (there weren't many Shinto shrine maidens, let's put it that way...), and the mirror's connection to dynastic China may also be "controversial" to the Chinese censors.

 

[hmjohnny]

there's nothing to set up Shenhua's parentage (at best it's possible that she's of royal heritage, though this has, uh, awkward implications)

There is another possibility that you touch on here. The treasure does not have to be supernatural nor monetary. It could be that the treasure is the hidden heir to the Dynasty. Which may or may not be Shenhua.

nother issue to consider is that Suzuki has made concessions to Chinese censors in S3, displaying an alarming lack of understanding of what rural China looked like in 1987 as well as what the culture was like (there weren't many Shinto shrine maidens, let's put it that way...), and the mirror's connection to dynastic China may also be "controversial" to the Chinese censors.

However, as you point out this may not work due to censorship. Chinese censorship in general worries me on how much of Shenmue 3's story was curbed during development. I'm not sure it contributed to Bailu's design and aesthetic but it's possible it contributed to S3 not taking place anywhere real.

Also, good luck including a lot of things in your game about China and marketing it to the Chinese. You can't have Tibet as a location, you have to be extremely careful in talking about Chinese history which limits a lot for Shenmue. You have your main antagonists named after Chi You but you can't properly talk about Chi You without talking about the Hmong. With China's relationship with the hill tribes that will be difficult.

I wonder how much benefit they get from marketing in China vs the censorship angle.

 

[iknifaugood]

It could be that the treasure is the hidden heir to the Dynasty. Which may or may not be Shenhua.

...but that doesn't matter because the last emperor abdicated power and lived well into the 1960s. The fall of the Qing dynasty was a complex historical event, not something that can be CTRL+Z'd by a mysterious heir showing up. Besides, Puyi died in 1967 and Shenhua wasn't born until 1970. This is the problem with not knowing what the stakes are halfway through the story; do the CYM want control of China? The world? Is it actually a racial thing (the Qing dynasty was only the second non-Han dynasty)? That would definitely not make it past the censors.

However, as you point out this may not work due to censorship. Chinese censorship in general worries me on how much of Shenmue 3's story was curbed during development. I'm not sure it contributed to Bailu's design and aesthetic but it's possible it contributed to S3 not taking place anywhere real.

Also, good luck including a lot of things in your game about China and marketing it to the Chinese. You can't have Tibet as a location, you have to be extremely careful in talking about Chinese history which limits a lot for Shenmue. You have your main antagonists named after Chi You but you can't properly talk about Chi You without talking about the Hmong. With China's relationship with the hill tribes that will be difficult.

Exactly. I'm worried that S3's milquetoast approach to history has already been compromised. The mirrors being 70 years old is borderline plot breaking as is. If YS is actually trying to appease the Chinese censors then he shouldn't bother writing a story set in 1980's China (could you imagine if Ryo winds up in Beijing in 1989? lol).

I wonder how much benefit they get from marketing in China vs the censorship angle.

Definitely not enough.

 

[SMDzero]

Well it's possible that phantom river stone was only meant as a breadcrumb to lead to Guilin. It's also possible that, if there's something supernatural involved, it comes from something else that has yet to be introduced. It's also possible that the relief is simply meant to coincide with Shenhua and Ryo's meeting (ie: the "time of destiny"), Yuan seems to know that Ryo will arrive with the Phoenix mirror days before he does. This is what I mean when I say that S3 doesn't really do anything to break the established plot (it also doesn't enhance it, and I doubt anything I learned in S3 will enrich a playthrough of S1 and 2 the way that S1 is greatly enriched after playing 2).

The problem with a mystery story like Shenmue is that we don't know what's a red herring and what's actually important. In GoT, it was more than possible to predict Jon Snow's parentage because that was set up; there's nothing to set up Shenhua's parentage (at best it's possible that she's of royal heritage, though this has, uh, awkward implications). Similarly, there's nothing at all in GoT to accurately predict the secrets of the White Walkers, but there was plenty of reason to assume that the picture of Iwao in Bailu Village was of him and Sunming. What concerns me about S3 is that it didn't resolve anything and it also didn't set anything up. "Niao Sun gets the Phoenix Mirror and Ryo loses to Lan Di, now Ryo, Shenhua and Ren chase the CYM to the Cliff Temple." I'm pretty sure if you played S1 and 2 and jumped straight to 4, you could read that sentence and skip S3 entirely, because you'd have the exact same questions as someone who played S3.


I really think they can go either way with the treasure at this point. S3 seems to do everything in its power to sap everything supernatural from the series beyond paying lip service to Shenhua's abilities.

(EDIT) That being said, there's just no way around introducing a character like Shenhua, who has superpowers, in an otherwise fairly realistic story, without explaining it. If that was YS' intention, then he wrote a bad story.

Another issue to consider is that Suzuki has made concessions to Chinese censors in S3, displaying an alarming lack of understanding of what rural China looked like in 1987 as well as what the culture was like (there weren't many Shinto shrine maidens, let's put it that way...), and the mirror's connection to dynastic China may also be "controversial" to the Chinese censors.

I don’t think the point of S3 was ever to be a “real game” in the traditional sense. It was a project of love for the fans by the fans so we could enjoy running around in Bailu Village and reminisce about the old Shenmue days by playing lucky hit and roll it on top. The problem with that approach is the question.. now what? Shenmue 3 gave us die hard fans our jollies running around in Bailu village and whatnot.. but the story NEEDS to actually progress at some point with a real game. A game not just for the fans but EVERYONE.

 

[hmjohnny]

You basically sum up the issues. This story is a mess and there is no way to satisfactorily payoff the plot lines that were introduced. I can't imagine them being answered in any other way that is the most basic and simple solution to check off the boxes.

It really does seem like Shenmue isn't really about anything, it's just a guys quest to get stronger and get revenge.

 

[Sonoshee]

I thought Shenmue was meant to be entertainment. Nowhere, ever, has it claimed to be historically correct.

 

[iknifaugood]

I thought Shenmue was meant to be entertainment. Nowhere, ever, has it claimed to be historically correct.

It's set in a real time and place and references real historical events. S3 explicitly mentions the emperor of the Qing dynasty commissioning the mirrors to be made in 1910. If the mirrors form a key to "resurrecting the Qing dynasty", what that means is both key to the Shenmue story and has historical implications. It's both.

Also I'm pretty sure Suzuki meticulously recreated 1986 Yokosuka and 1987 Hong Kong from real references, down to accurate historical weather patterns, so let's not pretend Shenmue has no pretense to historical accuracy.

I don’t think the point of S3 was ever to be a “real game” in the traditional sense. It was a project of love for the fans by the fans so we could enjoy running around in Bailu Village and reminisce about the old Shenmue days by playing lucky hit and roll it on top. The problem with that approach is the question.. now what?

That's what it felt like much of the time. But S3 does set up a sequel (however loosely) in its final moments.

This story is a mess and there is no way to satisfactorily payoff the plot lines that were introduced.

It's possible but it would be controversial as fuck. No way you could sell it in China. If the CYM are actually motivated by a warped "righteous vengeance", that would make them damn interesting villains. I was about to say "I doubt it though" and then I remembered that their name is the FOLLOWERS OF CHI YOU.

 

[hmjohnny]

f the CYM are actually motivated by a warped "righteous vengeance", that would make them damn interesting villains. I was about to say "I doubt it though" and then I remembered that their name is the FOLLOWERS OF CHI YOU.

Unless Chi You is just a monster and has no representation on the historical figure.

 

[Sonoshee]

It's set in a real time and place and references real historical events. S3 explicitly mentions the emperor of the Qing dynasty commissioning the mirrors to be made in 1910. If the mirrors form a key to "resurrecting the Qing dynasty", what that means is both key to the Shenmue story and has historical implications. It's both.

Also I'm pretty sure Suzuki meticulously recreated 1986 Yokosuka and 1987 Hong Kong from real references, down to accurate historical weather patterns, so let's not pretend Shenmue has no pretense to historical accuracy.

It references them, yes. That's not the same as being historically accurate.

In regards to places and weather patterns, that's not the same either. Their detail have nothing to do with the story.

 

[iknifaugood]

Unless Chi You is just a monster and has no representation on the historical figure.

If it's a monster then that's fine, but the CYM still need motivation (are they a suicide cult? Do they think they can control the monster? What do they want?), also how would this jive with what we know about the mirrors and their connection to the Qing dynasty? It's certainly possible but it will require much more explanation (I mean, either way we need much more explanation, but still).

It references them, yes. That's not the same as being historically accurate.

In regards to places and weather patterns, that's not the same either. Their detail have nothing to do with the story.

Yea the story doesn't have to be historically accurate, it can be about monsters or hidden gold or whatever, but, because it takes place in a real historical time, everything needs to add up. If the CYM want to take over China and all they have is a bunch of gold, that doesn't make any sense. If Shenhua is secretly the heir to the Qing dynasty, that's fine but that also doesn't make any sense because there are already heirs to the Qing dynasty alive when Shenmue takes place, so there needs to be more to it than that. It's like Indiana Jones, the Nazis can be after whatever magical thing they want, but everything else about the world makes sense for the 1930s. It's not like YS can pretend there was a different emperor of the Qing dynasty or whatever...

(EDIT) Also I forgot to mention that, as a woman, Shenhua wouldn't even be eligible for succession...

 

[Sonoshee]

That's the thing, everything doesn't need to add up, that's the beauty of a STORY as opposed to HISTORICAL ACCURACY. You are able to take liberties and even make things more exciting than it was historically. I very much doubt there were mirrors that showed a path to treasure back then either.

Certain things are being REFERENCED, but only to build a story Yu himself has written.

 

[spud1897]

Isn't the whole point of a story is to maybe use some history as a setting but within that create your own timeline/interpretation. Much like an artist making a painting, interpreting what they see?