Yu Suzuki Interview (IGN Japan): Reflections on S3, Plans for S4

[hmjohnny]

Yes, they can be ignored, and what's left is a pretty shallow, point A to point B experience. That's the point. The mini-games act as a means to pad out the gameplay,

Yes, this is true. But my point is that is the case for mini games in almost all games they are in. I think it's fine since they're completely optional anyway so they don't take away from the experience but add to it (if you choose to engage with them).

No matter what introducing mini games often causes ludo narrative dissonance but this is just an accepted trade off for the enjoyment of having the extra content. See this Penny Arcade from when Shenmue came out making fun of that very thing.

Shenmue doesn't do this

Largely disagree. However, there are instances where Shenmue integrates the mini games. To be clear I'm not talking about things like the forklifts or motorcycle in S1, but the side activity mini games.

Shenmue's distractions serve a purpose within the gameplay as either a means to simulate/facilitate Ryo's expenditure of time

Which also serves to simulate/facilitate the player's expenditure of time which is no different than padding the game length with extra content.

or as a means to make money to facilitate other side activities

Pretty much any game with gambling does this. Also, this only appears in S2 onward. The mini games in S1 are nothing but distractions from the main quest (I don't think there is anything wrong with that).

In Shenmue, they work organically with the main quest.

Some of them do, yes. The stamina increasing activities i.e one inch punch etc, and the jobs do this well. Things like darts, the arcade games, collectables etc. are just side activities that are ends to themselves.

I think this is good btw; there should be a balance as when everything in the game has an ulterior mechanism to integrate into the main gameplay it can "gamify" the experience, making you strategize your choices rather than enjoy them as their own ends and cause breaks in immersion. The Persona games are a bit guilty of this.

they are also implemented as short-burst activities that regularly require under a minute to engage in. None of them even require a true tutorial, but to actually do well, one has to spend time practicing and learning what works best. Shenmue's mini-games replicate the spirit of arcade gameplay, and are better for it.

This is a certain philosophy to mini games that you like. I also like them, but I'm not against having more in depth side activities either. As long a they remain optional I'm all for having more choices for the player where it makes sense. TBH I'm not partial to either approach and think they both work fine in their own way, although you may be overthinking the complexity of most mini games in Yakuza in general unless they are approximating a complex game themselves i.e. Majhong.

Yakuza's mini-games are forced, and tacked on. Most of them spend a bunch of time up front explaining all the details of the game. They are also total wastes of a player's actual time. Part of that is the complete devaluation of any rewards one might earn from them in never necessitating regular purchases. Weapons aren't worth buying, healing items are thrown at the player by the fistful, and equipment is usually provided at some point for free--and not essential, anyway

This is a pretty good criticism. The only thing I would say is again, they are optional side activities designed for you to pick and choose the few you like and ignore the rest.

did not think I would be having this discussion, but what is the ultimate objective of art? ....

I really want to reply to this but this is going to go down a long rabbit hole that will completely derail this thread. I believe I have made my point clear to spud's response earlier but we can get much deeper on this.

I think there are mighty interesting ideas to discuss here and if others are interested we can start a separate thread about it.

 

[spud1897]

I really want to reply to this but this is going to go down a long rabbit hole that will completely derail this thread. I believe I have made my point clear to spud's response earlier but we can get much deeper on this.

I think there are mighty interesting ideas to discuss here and if others are interested we can start a separate thread about it.

Feel free if you want to make one

 

[shredingskin]

I think that the comparison to Yakuza stem from YS saying the next game will try to cater more to a mainstream audience and that the next game will focus a lot more on substories.
Both of those (to me) would describe Yakuza.
Part of what makes Yakuza so cool (and honestly, Yakuza got mainstream in the west thanks to 0), is the ridiculousness and over the top nature of the game. Kazuma helping a little kid that got stolen a game, that got stolen, that got stolen and ended up being stolen by the kids father, is funny because it's a ridiculous situation, from a Yakuza helping the kid, from the game being stolen so many times, to the ending trying to be melodramatic in such a hamfisted way (which is intended), in the middle of a game where all you do is curbstomp random guys all day.
How would that situation play in Shenmue ?
Yakuza is also a game with few fucks left to give, they literally have a mini game of looking real life women in bikinis, a horny guy that appears randomly, etc. There are tons of situations to take from, is a game that rejoices in it's ludonarrative dissonance and use it as a tool. Shenmue is a much more grounded game, which unless it does a 180 would require very big writing chops to pull off (which was never Shenmue greatest point, even if the scenario settings were great).
On the other hand one of the greatest points in S1 was the little banter that NPCs had, it was not enough to make a full game out of it, but it was (and still is) more than enough to make the world feel alive.

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

YS:

It comes down to what you are trying to achieve. If the aim is to attain the level of polish of Shenmue I, then for Shenmue III I think I would have used up the entire budget just on Bailu village.

Hmm am I the only one who kinda wishes he did this? Shenmue 3 would probably feel like RED DEAD REDEMPTION. Graphics on models would probably be drastically improved too.

 

[Sonoshee]

I was pointing out that @Sonoshee was defending the accusation that S3 and Yakuza have similar budgets and Yakuza is clearly more polished, modern etc. by seemingly throwing the dev team under the bus. If that's not what you were doing then apologies. I have no desire to go down the road of comparing Shenmue to Yakuza.

Lol. Nowhere did I "throw them under the bus". I just pointed out that the Yakuza team have more experience working together after a lot of years developing a bunch of the same games. YSNet unfortunately haven't had that luxury but give them time and I'm adamant that will be the same case too. This goes for ANY team infact. That was my point and that's not the same as throwing them under the bus. I never slagged YSNet off or critisized. I made a perfectly valid statement. What you decide to take out of it is quite hypocritical given your recent comments about the game. I've been mostly nothing but positive with regards to YSNet and Shenmue 3, as you can see in mostly all of my posts regarding said topic. Hell, I even defended it rigourously against the recent negativity hotspots on the forum. So again, saying I'm throwing YSNet under a bus just because I made a perfectly realistic observation is just ludicrous.
Anyway, I've made my point on this more than once and if you choose to carry on debating it, that's your call. I don't want to be derailing this thread any further.

 

[Sput Vas Normandy]

About the ps4 popping: I played it on pc (SSD) and got almost no popping. At least when I played it.

Amazing how we've gone from such a positive interview to "Yu isn't passionate about the series, he shouldn't make Shenmue IV" in just 3 pages. Well done everyone!

It's our fault. Don't feed the trolls. At page 10 one is comparing YSnet's living world with Rockstar, Nintendo, Cdprojekt red and Bethesda. Pure magic. Just laugh and ignore them.

If Shenmue IV was to be a Kowloon-esqué Baisha, with 5 or 6 various Toulus that go upward, rather than outward in terms of the open world, I will give him another 10k donation. A smaller scale, yet incredibly denser game would be my ultimate Shenmue at this point.

I'd love to play SIV in a city (or two) with the size of SI

Hmm am I the only one who kinda wishes he did this? Shenmue 3 would probably feel like RED DEAD REDEMPTION. Graphics on models would probably be drastically improved too.

I agree. I liked Bailu much more than Niaowu.

 

[SMDzero]

I agree. I liked Bailu much more than Niaowu.

I think Niaowu would have been better received if Baisha had been in the game as the intended action-packed finale just like Kowloon was in S2.

Niaowu was supposed to be a relatively quiet part of the story when you could park the ol' ball & chain (Shenhua) in the hotel and experience an open world full of fan -service nostalgia and mini games galore.

THEN Shenhua was supposed to be kidnapped and taken to Baisha and it would have been a strap-yourself-in thrill ride for last 3rd of the game full of non-stop action, story & character development.

Taking the very end of the Baisha finale and pasting it onto the end of Niaowu (when nothing was supposed to happen story-wise) felt jarring and rushed and ended up making Niaowu leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

 

[spud1897]

I think Niaowu would have been better received if Baisha had been in the game as the intended action-packed finale just like Kowloon was in S2.

Niaowu was supposed to be a relatively quiet part of the story when you could park the ol' ball & chain (Shenhua) in the hotel and experience an open world full of fan -service nostalgia and mini games galore.

THEN Shenhua was supposed to be kidnapped and taken to Baisha and it would have been a strap-yourself-in thrill ride for last 3rd of the game full of non-stop action, story & character development.

Taking the very end of the Baisha finale and pasting it onto the end of Niaowu (when nothing was supposed to happen story-wise) felt jarring and rushed and ended up making Niaowu leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

In some peoples mouths not everyone's though I suspect more than not.

I agree it was rushed but I felt the last hour was among the best in the game apart from Bailu which was immense for me.

 

[SMDzero]

In some peoples mouths not everyone's though I suspect more than not.

I agree it was rushed but I felt the last hour was among the best in the game apart from Bailu which was immense for me.

I liked the last hour too. But it felt like a truncated version of what the sequence was intended to be in Baisha.

Can you imagine Ryo and Ren infiltrating multiple tulous searching for Shenhua and fighting each one of Lan Di's bodyguards as full-on boss fights as they get closer and closer to finding her?

Fighting Lan Di on the top of the final tolou as it burns?

 

[spud1897]

I liked the last hour too. But it felt like a truncated version of what the sequence was intended to be in Baisha.

Can you imagine Ryo and Ren infiltrating multiple tulous searching for Shenhua and fighting each one of Lan Di's bodyguards as full-on boss fights as they get closer and closer to finding her?

Fighting Lan Di on the top of the final tolou as it burns?

See I'd imagined Baisha like some sort of Yellowhead building structure in terms of how it was put together.

Fights, investigations, mystery and then the final battle.

Your last sentence has me smiling at the thought and I suspect that's what would have happened.

 

[Sonoshee]

I liked the last hour too. But it felt like a truncated version of what the sequence was intended to be in Baisha.

Can you imagine Ryo and Ren infiltrating multiple tulous searching for Shenhua and fighting each one of Lan Di's bodyguards as full-on boss fights as they get closer and closer to finding her?

Fighting Lan Di on the top of the final tolou as it burns?

In an ideal world with an ideal budget.
When I look at the crap that is released today with astronomical budgets then see where Shenmue ended up (in regards to being left to rot by Sega, no huge backing etc), it hurts real bad.
Still, we live in a world where Shenmue 3 is a reality. And from what Yu says we'll finally see answers in 4. There's plenty to rejoice in that.

 

[spud1897]

In an ideal world with an ideal budget.
When I look at the crap that is released today with astronomical budgets then see where Shenmue ended up (in regards to being left to rot by Sega, no huge backing etc), it hurts real bad.
Still, we live in a world where Shenmue 3 is a reality. And from what Yu says we'll finally see answers in 4. There's plenty to rejoice in that.

I'd say whatever a person's individual view is on Shenmue III, the series as a whole is in a better position than it was (with cautious optimism of course) before the announcement and release.

 

[SMDzero]

I'd say whatever a person's individual view is on Shenmue III, the series as a whole is in a better position than it was (with cautious optimism of course) before the announcement and release.

Yeah, and the encouraging thing is the story is still well short of even the half-way mark, most of Ryo's journey is still ahead of us.

Hopefully Yu can make another 20M Shenmue sequel and build upon what he did with S3.

 

[RyoHazuki84]

Suzuki and his team were relatively new to using the Unreal Engine and they had to take time learning it. Granted it's common in most Western companies, but Suzuki said there were very little guides in Japanese. I think the third game could've been better, but it lays the foundation on what they can do better with 4 and I'll leave my thoughts at that. Shenmue III may have been slow, but considering the grand scheme of things, I am positive the story will go on.

 

[Sergeynest]

I'm not sure, but somehow I believe that Yu and is team have secured funds for Shenmue 4 through the Epic Games exclusivity deal.
It's hard for me to believe that the overhaul budget for Shenmue 3 was around the 20 million mark.
Maybe part of that money could have already been used into the prodution of Shenmue 4.
Besides from the way Yu Suzuki answered some of the questions in the interview it gives the feeling that he is already at work.
It gave the impression that he his figering out what worked well in Shenmue 3 and what didn't work and also what can be improved to bring new players to the series while maintaining the core fan base pleased at the same time.
Do you guys believe that this could be a possibility !?

 

[hyo_razuki]

I'd like to think so.

 

[spud1897]

I'm not sure, but somehow I believe that Yu and is team have secured funds for Shenmue 4 through the Epic Games exclusivity deal.
It's hard for me to believe that the overhaul budget for Shenmue 3 was around the 20 million mark.
Maybe part of that money could have already been used into the prodution of Shenmue 4.
Besides from the way Yu Suzuki answered some of the questions in the interview it gives the feeling that he is already at work.
It gave the impression that he his figering out what worked well in Shenmue 3 and what didn't work and also what can be improved to bring new players to the series while maintaining the core fan base pleased at the same time.
Do you guys believe that this could be a possibility !?

Could well be. Cautiously optimistic

 

[iknifaugood]

It's our fault. Don't feed the trolls. At page 10 one is comparing YSnet's living world with Rockstar, Nintendo, Cdprojekt red and Bethesda. Pure magic. Just laugh and ignore them.

The person you're referring to is me and I didn't compare S3's living world to those games, the person I was talking to said that S3 simulates a living world you can interact with with lots of characters and story better than any modern game they knew of. So I listed some modern games that do what S3 does but better and that person hadn't played most of them so, fair enough. No one was trolling.

That being said, in this interview, Suzuki himself claims that he wants S4 to attract a wider audience and claims that S3 already cost ~$20M. Wider audiences have played those games I listed so no one is going to give Shenmue an A for effort just for trying. It needs to live up to certain standards gamers have grown accustomed to if it wants to expand its audience. If not, Suzuki knows exactly how much money he should spend in order to be profitable from fan support.

When I look at the crap that is released today with astronomical budgets then see where Shenmue ended up (in regards to being left to rot by Sega, no huge backing etc), it hurts real bad.

I used to feel like this back in the early 2000's when it was still new, but I still really enjoy gaming and think it's an amazing medium that has grown past where Shenmue left off in 2001. If you haven't, you should really give some of those "crap" games a chance because there's some really good stuff being released at the AAA level. Certainly more consistently good than high-budget Hollywood movies, at any rate.

I'm not sure, but somehow I believe that Yu and is team have secured funds for Shenmue 4 through the Epic Games exclusivity deal.
It's hard for me to believe that the overhaul budget for Shenmue 3 was around the 20 million mark.
Maybe part of that money could have already been used into the prodution of Shenmue 4.
Besides from the way Yu Suzuki answered some of the questions in the interview it gives the feeling that he is already at work.
It gave the impression that he his figering out what worked well in Shenmue 3 and what didn't work and also what can be improved to bring new players to the series while maintaining the core fan base pleased at the same time.
Do you guys believe that this could be a possibility !?

I certainly hope so but I don't think the realities of actually running a business would allow for this unless investors understood where the money was going. Suzuki says outright that S3 was for the fans, not profit, so I doubt anything was left on the table.

 

[Thomasina]

Wow at $20 million.

I think Shenmue 4 could be done properly on $20 million, but a lot of the fluff and filler needs to be cut. The exchange system, the food system and the absurd amount of pointless capsule toys.... those resources could be spent on more important things.

 

[spud1897]

Wow at $20 million.

I think Shenmue 4 could be done properly on $20 million, but a lot of the fluff and filler needs to be cut. The exchange system, the food system and the absurd amount of pointless capsule toys.... those resources could be spent on more important things.

We all did raise an eyebrow at the budget. I definitely did. More than I expected for sure. But in hindsight gaming development is much more costly than I thought, especially open world stuff.

They wont cut the exchange system if they launch in China/for gambling laws. They might refine it. The food system if attached to power rather than health, e.g Ryos strikes become less powerful the more hungry he is, that would work but no so much that after each fight you have to eat.

The capsules, considering they probably have a bunch of assets there now they can refine and not spend too much time on them. Had they all been Sega ones I doubt anyone would have complained. But then it linked to the exchange system so while there was a lot I think they wanted to have a variation of what was exchanged for what.