Yu Suzuki Interview (IGN Japan): Reflections on S3, Plans for S4

[Peter]

That's what I mean, if you call my post lazy, it could just be a roundabout way of calling me lazy so is that against the TOS?

Any personal attacks will be looked at and dealt with accordingly, which includes people who are not on this site. This is common sense, so I am not sure what your line of questioning is about.

 

[shredingskin]

I got totally the reverse opinion of the interviewer, that he was trying to point YS the lack of story elements but in a polite way.
It's not like he is going to sour the interview starting with "S3 is a dissapointment and lacks story, any comments ?", that's going to lead nowhere.
Mixing and matching the Sun comment with the fan expectation comment, I think they really tried to make a fleshed out world first and to fill it later, which kinda shows in the end result: some beautiful places, the Shenmue feel of being able to talk to any npc, but lack of direction/story.

 

[iknifaugood]

Any personal attacks will be looked at and dealt with accordingly, which includes people who are not on this site. This is common sense, so I am not sure what your line of questioning is about.

If I say that the design of a certain quest is lazy, that implies that whoever designed it that way was being lazy; is that considered a personal attack or no?

 

[Sailor-San]

YS: Also, to make time skip more freely available, I’d like to make it possible to sit on the town benches, and by doing so a wait system would be triggered where you can progress time, for example.

FUCK, I love that guy!

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Seeing Yu so happy and excited was a gigantic relief amid the dumpster fire of pessimistic, negative takes on Shenmue 3--let alone the COVID madness. My quiet confidence in Shenmue 4 has now swelled considerably

The empty streets are a valid point, but personally didn't bother me one bit. Also was a little better if you properly Shenmue'd by refusing to run I'm going to be upgrading my PS4 to an SSD soon. Hoping/wondering if it'll help with pop in.

Speaking of... Shenmue 2 has pretty major pop-up/fade-in, yet it is look upon with rose tinted shades. Even Yokosuka has minor pop-in.

It’s also a Dreamcast game, not a game released in 2019?

 

[Sailor-San]

YS: For me, I really believe there’s good to be found in imperfection.

Great interview! Thanks Switch!

Just to elaborate a little on the interview. What strikes me is how Yu is considering current gaming styles for Shenmue. First it frightened me a bit to be honest but as he explained some small detail about time skipping by relaxing on a bench I was totally fine with it. It just shows how wonderful Yu thinks outside the box. It is pleasing for the modern player but in context of the Shenmue World building. That is so delightful.

I am also very pleased that he wants to conquer new frontiers with the IV installment and am so stocked to wander in small curvy full packed roads/shopping districts in China. It just boggles the imagination and I bet the feeling of being a traveler in an distant land will intensify more and more with that imagery and gaming style he describes in the interview.

 

[Peter]

If I say that the design of a certain quest is lazy, that implies that whoever designed it that way was being lazy; is that considered a personal attack or no?

If you are continuing to ask then you must not be able to grasp the point I have made that it is.

 

[iknifaugood]

If you are continuing to ask then you must not be able to grasp the point I have made that it is.

I asked if there was a distinction between calling an aspect of the game lazy and calling the person responsible lazy, you said

Of course there is.

and then proceeded to give examples illustrating the exact opposite position. I'm sure you can understand why that's confusing.

 

[xatruio]

It’s also a Dreamcast game, not a game released in 2019?

Pop in is in every generation. Pet peeve nitpick of mine.

 

[ShenSun]

Coming from someone who hasn't developed anything substantial in 20 years, Shenmue 3 is a very good attempt at an open world game on current gen systems. It has its problems, but im pretty sure Suzuki will address all those in the follow up. He seems to take criticism in good faith and is very humble.

We'll be good for Shenmue 4.

 

[Sonoshee]

While I understand this sentiment, I find this to be as insulting to the devs as anything else. S3 is perfectly fine from a technical standpoint; there are almost no bugs, the models are fine, the environments are nice etc.

Nowhere did I ever say or claim otherwise. But it's true - Yu hired a lot of unknown developers. This isn't insulting, this is fact.

And you really want to go down that road? The amount of insults about Shenmue 3 that have spewed out of your gob have been unreal, so knock it off.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Pop in is in every generation. Pet peeve nitpick of mine.

Sure, but I can think of few if any games this gen that struggle as much with pop-in and “pedestrian density.” Folks literally materialize out of thin air seconds after you bump into “invisible walls.” Storefronts draw themselves in real time. Maybe it’s an UE4/PS4 thing, but it really stood out to me. Even the PC footage doesn’t make Niaowu look particularly lively. I don’t recall the first two games struggling quite that much either, but pop-in and limited draw distance were very normal in 1999/2000 so these issues didn’t stand out as much for me back then. And yes, I am superficial enough that pedestrians zig zagging mindlessly and standing around would do a lot to make Niaowu more enjoyable for me.

 

[Peter]

I asked if there was a distinction between calling an aspect of the game lazy and calling the person responsible lazy, you said

and then proceeded to give examples illustrating the exact opposite position. I'm sure you can understand why that's confusing.

I've no intention of getting into the cat and mouse posting. I've said what I have came in here to say. In line with the TOS, refrain from insulting the development team by refering to their work as lazy or other insults relating to their work as employee. You wernt there, you don't know, and that's the end of it.

 

[hmjohnny]

You had the same thought I did when I read that post. That’s why so far you are one of my favorite posters.

Thanks!

’ve definitely seen so far that Yu Suzuki is more of a technologist/engineer and probably leveraged the help of a writing team with Shenmue II to make an epic and cinematic story experience. As a standalone writer, he seems to have a disconnect with the small, minutae of the plot that has created all these messy plotholes and retcons we’ve been bashing his team over.
I would definitely support a Shenmue IV, and would contribute if they go that route, but FFS please do not assume all Shenmue fans want more of the same tedious filler that made Shenmue III a bit of a mess.
When the interviewer started asking him about improvements in SIV, I almost expected him to say “more smartball, more lucky hit, more forklifting” like Dude, NO! No more fan servicing

I think you and I are on the same wavelength.

Not really. I mean look how popular PSO2 is and those visuals look hella dated lol.

Exactly. Shenmue IV doesn't need better graphics to pull in new players. It needs to tell a more engaging story, better characterisation (including English VO that is more naturalistic...or none at all), a more engaging progression structure, and deeper combat.

The game didn't get mixed reviews because of its graphics.

Let me reply to this sentiment because I think what I am trying to say is being misunderstood.

I do think aesthetics play a big part in pulling in people's initial attention to anew game. Obviously this is not just graphics but the overall art direction. I don't think S3 is a bad looking game and don't agree with the critics that it looks like a last gen game.

However, reusing most of the art assets for S4 would be a bad look for a game that is trying to market to a new audience. Established series with strong followings can get away with lesser graphics to a certain extent because they know a certain amount of sales is guaranteed. With Shenmue they have our money but that is clearly not enough (according to Suzuki) to make S4 profitable enough to continue the series. Therefore bringing in new people will require the game to look decent enough to not completely offput new players. Not to mention that I know Suzuki has no intention of doing this when he explicitly says in the interview that he wants to push the series further graphically.

Personally I don't care. I would rather the money be saved to be put into the content of the game but it's not my decision to make.

 

[iknifaugood]

Nowhere did I ever say or claim otherwise. But it's true - Yu hired a lot of unknown developers. This isn't insulting, this is fact.

You're saying Yakuza is good because it had an experienced dev team and Shenmue should be given some slack because they have an inexperienced team. Yakuza is good because it's a well designed game with satisfying combat, fun minigames, a great sense of humor, and a good story. The team who worked on Shenmue 3 did an excellent job making the game, the problem lies with the game they were told to make.

And you really want to go down that road? The amount of insults about Shenmue 3 that have spewed out of your gob have been unreal, so knock it off.

Because I think it's a bad game. That's not the same thing as saying the team is bad, or inexperienced, or lazy or whatever. The same studio that made Star Fox Zero made Bayonetta. S3 is not bad because the team that made it is bad.

I've no intention of getting into the cat and mouse posting you relish having on these forums.

I asked you a question, you answered it confusingly, I asked for clarification, you insulted me, and I'm the asshole? OK.

 

[hmjohnny]

The game isn't lazy either, to me a lazy game is one that is broken as hell and doesn't work

I don't think this is quite right. Devs can work hard and still fail because of external factors that derail a project. Often the project is just not scoped correctly (I've worked on many of those) and that can cause the end result to suffer. A lazy game is one where it is obvious they phoned it in. They rehash, reuse, or otherwise do things as simply as possible. There are a lot of shovelware games that kind of fit this category. They just get pumped out with no creativity, barely playable, and just uninspired overall.

That being said I think "Lazy" here is a loaded term. We obviously can't say S3 is a lazy game, but for some aspects it does feel that they didn't put in the same effort. Perhaps a better way to say it is they deprioritized those aspects in favour of others due to a limited budget. But it is fair to call some aspects of the game lazy as a way of calling out that you don't agree with how those areas were deprioritized. I think that's what is being meant by using lazy design as an example for S3, it's not a slight against the efforts of the Devs.

That's the beauty of a subjective art. Thats what it is at the end of the day, you can spin something however you want but it's all subjective, be it one word or an essay.

Sorry this point irks me. I don't believe that anything is purely subjective. There is a subjective layer or component to every work yes, but there are also objective components. Art is a craft, and we can determine objectively the quality of the craftsmanship at the very least.

This is different from personally liking something. You can like things that are bad and dislike things that you recognize as good. But especially with games, where the functionality of gameplay is factored in, I don't think you can say it's purely subjective.

This is not meant to criticize S3 btw, or even games in specific, I'm talking in generalities. I just strongly disagree with the perspective that all art is subjective.

What I hope is while of course Yu takes onboard the criticisms he makes what he wants to. Hes made a game for the fans. Let him go off and make what he wants to.

Yup, definitely agree with you. At the end of the day he needs to make the game he wants to make and not what he thinks fans or casuals want. That will only water down the game and fill it with compromises that will make few of us happy.

 

[spud1897]

I don't think this is quite right. Devs can work hard and still fail because of external factors that derail a project. Often the project is just not scoped correctly (I've worked on many of those) and that can cause the end result to suffer. A lazy game is one where it is obvious they phoned it in. They rehash, reuse, or otherwise do things as simply as possible. There are a lot of shovelware games that kind of fit this category. They just get pumped out with no creativity, barely playable, and just uninspired overall.

That being said I think "Lazy" here is a loaded term. We obviously can't say S3 is a lazy game, but for some aspects it does feel that they didn't put in the same effort. Perhaps a better way to say it is they deprioritized those aspects in favour of others due to a limited budget. But it is fair to call some aspects of the game lazy as a way of calling out that you don't agree with how those areas were deprioritized. I think that's what is being meant by using lazy design as an example for S3, it's not a slight against the efforts of the Devs.


Sorry this point irks me. I don't believe that anything is purely subjective. There is a subjective layer or component to every work yes, but there are also objective components. Art is a craft, and we can determine objectively the quality of the craftsmanship at the very least.

This is different from personally liking something. You can like things that are bad and dislike things that you recognize as good. But especially with games, where the functionality of gameplay is factored in, I don't think you can say it's purely subjective.

This is not meant to criticize S3 btw, or even games in specific, I'm talking in generalities. I just strongly disagree with the perspective that all art is subjective.

Yup, definitely agree with you. At the end of the day he needs to make the game he wants to make and not what he thinks fans or casuals want. That will only water down the game and fill it with compromises that will make few of us happy.

How can art not be subjective? I walk into a gallery and might like a picture and you don't that's subjective. Same with music. You might like a particular band for the song quality, I might not like the song (subjective) but appreciate the playing ability. There has to be a level of quality but if art wasn't subjective it would just be a case of good v bad and that goes against how art is used to express things/convey a message. It will do that for one person better or worse than another.

What's irking me is the term lazy. Deprioritized sounds much better. Of course we don't know what the process was around why the decisions were made for what.

 

[hmjohnny]

How can art not be subjective? I walk into a gallery and might like a picture and you don't that's subjective. Same with music. You might like a particular band for the song quality, I might not like the song (subjective) but appreciate the playing ability. There has to be a level of quality but if art wasn't subjective it would just be a case of good v bad and that goes against how art is used to express things/convey a message. It will do that for one person better or worse than another.

I'm not saying it's not subjective. Only not completely subjective.

Again, we can like different things, have different tastes and not agree, but we can still both recognize something as being well made or poorly made. That is why I am saying that there is an objective foundation to art in which we apply our subjective lens.

EDIT: maybe this is what you meant and I misread it. If that's the case apologies, carry on.

 

[9dragons]

Coming from someone who hasn't developed anything substantial in 20 years, Shenmue 3 is a very good attempt at an open world game on current gen systems. It has its problems, but im pretty sure Suzuki will address all those in the follow up. He seems to take criticism in good faith and is very humble.

We'll be good for Shenmue 4.

That is really a good point. Suziki did really good compared for somebody who was out of touch with the industry for such a long term. If S4 happens he will surely learn from his mistakes in S3.

And we have to honest here. How we like or do not like some gameplay dissensions is highly subjective. There is not really a right and wrong.

Many people enjoy modern games. They do not mind that some games are just artificially streached to make the game longer. They fulfill no function in the progression of the character. But at leas the side quests are more diverse. so people have more fun with it. Some people prefer that stuff.

The side quests in Shenmue are mundane and boring, but they fit perfectly in the story telling. In S3 you are not controlling Ryo, you are literally Ryo. In order to progress the story, you need to earn money to pay the bills at the hotel. You have to earn money to do certain things that some NPC interact with each other. in order to progress in fights you need to practice your skills.

It fits perfectly in the martial arts lore of Shenmue 3.

It is great. But not suitable for everybody. I can understand that this is too much for some people.

 

[spud1897]

I'm not saying it's not subjective. Only not completely subjective.

Again, we can like different things, have different tastes and not agree, but we can still both recognize something as being well made or poorly made. That is why I am saying that there is an objective foundation to art in which we apply our subjective lens.

EDIT: maybe this is what you meant and I misread it. If that's the case apologies, carry on.

Spot on my friend. There has to be an underlying basis that something is solid enough to be able to convey whatever it's trying to. How well it does that is subjective.