Yu Suzuki Interview (IGN Japan): Reflections on S3, Plans for S4

[iknifaugood]

Maybe it’s an UE4/PS4 thing

It's not. If I had to guess it's an LOD issue; they may not have wanted to compromise on the amount of geometry, they may have had trouble getting it to look good at lower poly counts, Niaowu in particular is an open area without much room to cull objects so that's likely a factor as well. There are a million reasons for it including the fact that it’s the way the old games handled it, it’s not a UE4 or PS4 issue though.

Again, we can like different things, have different tastes and not agree, but we can still both recognize something as being well made or poorly made. That is why I am saying that there is an objective foundation to art in which we apply our subjective lens.

There are always objective standards to art, that’s why someone like Jackson Pollock is distinguished from a child splattering paint on a canvas. But all art is subjective.

 

[Suzaku]

Sure, but I can think of few if any games this gen that struggle as much with pop-in and “pedestrian density.” Folks literally materialize out of thin air seconds after you bump into “invisible walls.” Storefronts draw themselves in real time. Maybe it’s an UE4/PS4 thing, but it really stood out to me. Even the PC footage doesn’t make Niaowu look particularly lively. I don’t recall the first two games struggling quite that much either, but pop-in and limited draw distance were very normal in 1999/2000 so these issues didn’t stand out as much for me back then. And yes, I am superficial enough that pedestrians zig zagging mindlessly and standing around would do a lot to make Niaowu more enjoyable for me.

It's probably due to Unreal 4 streaming issues.
Final Fantasy VII remake has similar problems.

 

[Machsi]

“Lazy” was a very poor word selection, so my apologies for striking a nerve. Shenmue III is definitely very polished, no visible bugs that I’ve seen, incredible atmospheric detail, and captures the soul of the franchise. With such a small dev team, I’m sure during the home stretch of the project completion, each worker was putting in 60-80 hours a week, 7 days a week of strenuous work. I simply meant story-wise, but that debate has been drilled into the ground by now so I will keep it more supportive and positive.

 

[Rydeen]

Yakuza is good because it's a well designed game with satisfying combat, fun minigames, a great sense of humor, and a good story.

I disagree. I'd say Yakuza's combat is about as satisfying as pushing a button tied to a cymbal-banging monkey toy, has a pretty degenerative, lowbrow sense of humor, and is overly reliant on shticky, ham-handed theatrics, with many conflicting messages, in its stories. I also don't feel it has a clear sense of what it wants to do with its characters from game to game (even within the same game, in many cases), and that its use of minigames is a little suspect in that it tries to pad out its gameplay in ways that don't really make sense. Bowling and driving range: decidedly clunky, and not fun. Darts, pool, fishing: overdesigned, and needlessly time consuming, but also not as competent as many dedicated pool and fishing games. Hanafuda, shogi, pachinko, etc: Love koi koi and shogi, but there are tons of video games dedicated to providing better digital approximations of playing these games; So there's no reason to spend 15 minutes at a time on them in a game that has no functional use for them. The simulators: Too rudimentary to be challenging, and too time consuming to excuse the lack of depth/variation.

To me, Yakuza's mini-games are a pretty classic example of feature creep. I would think, given his background in arcade games, Nagoshi would understand the value of having quick, simple mini-games that are tied to basic reward impulses, like in Shenmue. Even better if the mini-games served more of a function within the greater game, like in Shenmue III.

From my perspective, Shenmue III outclasses the Yakuza games in many ways, but I think the point @Sonoshee was making is that if the team YS had for Shenmue III had been with him for umpteen million games, like the Ryu ga Gotoku folks, they would be more familiar with how to implement his ideas, and the production process would have been considerably smoother.

There are always objective standards to art, that’s why someone like Jackson Pollock is distinguished from a child splattering paint on a canvas. But all art is subjective.

Except, for all you know, that child's paint splatter is as expressive as anything of Jackson Pollock's. There are standards, but they aren't objective. The subjective ideas about art reach a critical mass of acceptance, and become relied upon as standards. That's not the same as objectivity. That is, unless you rely on naturalistic definitions of truth, but given everyone's post-modern sensibilities now, and considering you'd even pay lip service to Jackson Pollock, I doubt it.

It's like rules in the NHL. They used to have a two line rule, where the puck couldn't cross two lines without being touched, they put in hybrid-icing in the last decade, constantly change the size/shape of the goal and crease, and every game there are rules that are subjectively interpreted/enforced by the officials on the ice. None of these things objectively make it a better game than it used to be, nor are they objective standards, but the ideas are implemented officially, and they are what end up governing the end product.

 

[hmjohnny]

its use of minigames is a little suspect in that it tries to pad out its gameplay in ways that don't really make sense

I don't understand this point really. The point of mini games in virtually every game they're in, especially open world type games, is to add to the world and give the player extra content. Nowhere in the Yakuza games are they padding out the main story anymore than the side quests. You could safely ignore all of the mini games in most cases if you didn't like them. This is no different than Shenmue really or pretty much any other game.

As for their quality, the point of having a lot of them is to let the player decide which games they like. Having a large variety means the game is more inclusive to more players who will find a few things they like and ignore the rest. Again, this is really no different than Shenmue.

Except, for all you know, that child's paint splatter is as expressive as anything of Jackson Pollock's. There are standards, but they aren't objective. The subjective ideas about art reach a critical mass of acceptance, and become relied upon as standards. That's not the same as objectivity. That is, unless you rely on naturalistic definitions of truth, but given everyone's post-modern sensibilities now, and considering you'd even pay lip service to Jackson Pollock, I doubt it.

comparing a child randomly splattering paint to a Pollock painting is completely reductive of modern art. It's like the ignorant idea of someone walking into a modern art exhibit and saying "I could do that, why don't they put my finger painting in a museum lol". These artists didn't try to convey deep meaning in their work like earlier styles, it was purely aesthetic expression that tried to get to what was "essential" about art, pure form and technique. Modern artists were all very talented artists who had a good understanding of form, colour, and design. This is not the same thing as a child or untrained person just throwing paint on a canvas.

There is a reason art is taught in schools. There are formal styles, designs, and techniques which are taught all over the world and do not differ based on culture or the subjective tastes of the teacher. The reason for this is that aesthetics have been learned over the centuries to convey consistent responses in people. These standards that you say are not objective really are. This doesn't mean you or I personally have to like it. We can have different tastes, but this is not the same thing as not having an objective foundation to measure quality upon.

If we take the stance that everything is really subjective we devolve into relativity and nihilism. A position that isn't really tenable.

Again, to reiterate for everyone, I'm not saying that art does not have subjective qualities, but we can definitely understand craft and form to know what works and what doesn't from at least a technical level. That often, and overwhelmingly, correlates to a qualitative result in the work which allows us to tell good work apart from bad. Where subjectivity often comes into play is determining which works we like. More so in determining which good works we prefer among other good works, though not exclusively, as we can still recognize something as bad and still like it.

 

[SMDzero]

What's irking me is the term lazy. Deprioritized sounds much better.

I tried explaining that distinction many times in high school. Never worked.

I do remember showing my friend Niaowu and walking very very slowing desperately hoping no pop in would occur.

Once I was inching toward a vendor and, once I got there, it STILL took 20 seconds for the NPC to materialize.

Why was this still still an issue on PS4 hardware?

 

[orient]

Yu says it himself in the interview: Shenmue III was a "first attempt", and your first attempt is never the perfect execution of an idea, especially when making complex video games with a team of 40+ people.

BioWare needed to make Mass Effect before they could make Mass Effect 2. Naughty Dog needed to make Uncharted before they made Uncharted 2. Assassin's Creed, The Witcher, Watch Dogs, Yakuza, the list goes on and on. In this modern age of complex 3D games with large teams of people, it is rare you nail everything on your first attempt.

Even for experienced dev teams, simply swapping genres can basically reset their proficiency to zero. They have to learn something completely new, like Ninja Theory with Bleeding Edge. Experience making specific types of games is invaluable in the games industry. It's why basically no one made a Bethesda-style game, in the vein of Elder Scrolls/Fallout for decades, apart from Bethesda. Obsidian eventually did it with The Outer Worlds, but they had the huge benefit of having worked on New Vegas using Bethesda's technology. And even then, they had to dramatically reduce the scope TOW in order to pull it off.

When we get IV, I expect an improvement in all areas. If III is a 68 for critics and a 78 for players (Metacritic), I think IV will be closer to a 78 for critics, 88 for players. Just my own gut feeling.

 

[Sonoshee]

You're saying Yakuza is good because it had an experienced dev team and Shenmue should be given some slack because they have an inexperienced team. Yakuza is good because it's a well designed game with satisfying combat, fun minigames, a great sense of humor, and a good story. The team who worked on Shenmue 3 did an excellent job making the game, the problem lies with the game they were told to make.

You're putting words into my mouth.

I never said Yakuza was good. Infact I personally don't like the series. I feel it's unjust how Yakuza is treated over Shenmue by Sega all the time and that's left a sour taste in my mouth all these years.

But to the point, all I meant is that the Yakuza team were more experienced being that they've worked together on many Yakuza titles as opposed to YSNet hiring a lot of fresh talent and only working on the one big title so far - Shenmue 3. Is that a bad thing? Hell no. Once the team fully gel - hopefully with Shenmue 4 - we can see more of those magic moments we saw in Shenmue 3.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Yakuza didn’t even take off in the West until the team pretty much perfected the formula ten years after the first game. It is definitely a bit unfair to bash the Ys Net team for not matching the extremely finely tuned and polished Yakuza games that have come out in the past five years or so. I won’t get into the subjective qualities of either series, but I think you know I love them both. It’s not always a competition...

Yakuza combat is quite superficial, but it’s perfectly animated and the physics feel right. That goes a long way. It’s also quite difficult at higher difficulty levels... I don’t think it’s any more shallow than a quality beat em up, though. Shenmue 4‘s combat has a long way to go, but I hope animations, physics and presentation (why do the fights cut away the second your opponent is knocked out? So unsatisfying) are a focus. I didn’t hate the combat in Shenmue 3, but it never really excited me either.

 

[Yokosuka]

It's very interesting to hear Suzuki insisting Shenmue 3 was made for fans, implying S4 may be designed in a completely different mood (for the better).

Over the S3 development, quite paradoxically, Suzuki said the most requested feature by fans was... that Yu designs the game he wants and only him. He said it at two interviews, being amused by the anecdote.

Actually he never said he was going to do so, he just said what fans mostly told him... Now that he's fulfilled his duty with S3, his remark might make a significant sense in the coming years.

Well, I don't think S4 is going to be an evolution that much, I don't want to overthink words. But it's like Santa Yu is hiding something in his sack... And I really want to know what!

 

[DanyTargaryen]

If Shenmue 4 really happens, there is a God.

At this point, I just want the story.

 

[Peter]

I asked you a question, you answered it confusingly,

Nah, i didnt. You asked questions, including a definition of the word of the English language, within the context i had previously defined.

you insulted me, and I'm the asshole? OK.

Well, i havent insulted you once, and lets be clear, you are the only one referring yourself as an asshole. This is the last time i am addressing this, and apologies to anyone for this little exchange going this far off topic.

@iknifaugood , if you want to go down this road, then contact me via PM. We can sort whatever issues you have that way. As from this point on, keep it on topic in regards to Esra's interview.

“Lazy” was a very poor word selection, so my apologies for striking a nerve. Shenmue III is definitely very polished, no visible bugs that I’ve seen, incredible atmospheric detail, and captures the soul of the franchise. With such a small dev team, I’m sure during the home stretch of the project completion, each worker was putting in 60-80 hours a week, 7 days a week of strenuous work. I simply meant story-wise, but that debate has been drilled into the ground by now so I will keep it more supportive and positive.

That's perfectly ok.

As someone who has seen the developmental team hard at work, has had numerous chats with Deep Silver advisors, general staff, Koch Media representatives, executives, and media publishers, i can understand how frustrating it is, as a beloved fan of this franchise, to hand wave a lot of whats happened and pass the buck onto the Yu-san and his team.

I share a LOT of the criticisms people have on these boards with Shenmue III. I may not post, and be as vocal and pedantic about it, but holy shit, don't sit back and think that this place isn't what Andy Bandos created almost 20 years ago. Lets be clear here, this is still a SHENMUE forum. It always will be, especially under my watch. Like i said earlier, criticise the game. Go for it. You are absolutely entitled to vent your disdain at this, that and the other.

But no one should, and will, begin to come on here spout accusations about what happened at any stage throughout the development of Shenmue III. The simple fact of the matter is that none of us where there. No one can even pretend to know what it was like to be Yu Suzuki, being given various amounts of money , to completely manage himself. No one on these forums can begin to understand the mentality of a man being given almost 7 million dollars, to go make whats regarded as one of the most highly anticipated games of the 2000's. No one can understand what its like to try to manage a team both locally and internationally, when you have never done it before. No one on these forums can understand what its like to have a publisher come on board, bring a lot of money to your project, but then apply the pressure to live up to those sales expectations, as well as deal with the fact that said publisher doesn't have faith in your project, adding even more pressure to finish a game whilst selling it off for exclusivity. No one knows the pressure of whilst trying to create this game, they also have to liaison with 70,000 fans who have post issues, dispatch issues, and schedule issues for final rewards of a Kickstarter campaign, whilst there is a worldwide, global pandemic going on.

Shenmue III definitely isn't the best in the series, nor is it without its long list of problems. But if people want to sit on their ivory tower and hail insults from above, you can rest assured that its not gonna happen here. This is a final heads up to those that think its ok to do so; it ends here.

 

[Rydeen]

I don't understand this point really. The point of mini games in virtually every game they're in, especially open world type games, is to add to the world and give the player extra content. Nowhere in the Yakuza games are they padding out the main story anymore than the side quests. You could safely ignore all of the mini games in most cases if you didn't like them. This is no different than Shenmue really or pretty much any other game.

As for their quality, the point of having a lot of them is to let the player decide which games they like. Having a large variety means the game is more inclusive to more players who will find a few things they like and ignore the rest. Again, this is really no different than Shenmue.

Yes, they can be ignored, and what's left is a pretty shallow, point A to point B experience. That's the point. The mini-games act as a means to pad out the gameplay, as I said. That is, the variety of gameplay. Shenmue doesn't do this. Shenmue's distractions serve a purpose within the gameplay as either a means to simulate/facilitate Ryo's expenditure of time, or as a means to make money to facilitate other side activities. In Shenmue, they work organically with the main quest. They are also implemented as short-burst activities that regularly require under a minute to engage in. None of them even require a true tutorial, but to actually do well, one has to spend time practicing and learning what works best. Shenmue's mini-games replicate the spirit of arcade gameplay, and are better for it.

Yakuza's mini-games are forced, and tacked on. Most of them spend a bunch of time up front explaining all the details of the game. They are also total wastes of a player's actual time. Part of that is the complete devaluation of any rewards one might earn from them in never necessitating regular purchases. Weapons aren't worth buying, healing items are thrown at the player by the fistful, and equipment is usually provided at some point for free--and not essential, anyway.

comparing a child randomly splattering paint to a Pollock painting is completely reductive of modern art. It's like the ignorant idea of someone walking into a modern art exhibit and saying "I could do that, why don't they put my finger painting in a museum lol". These artists didn't try to convey deep meaning in their work like earlier styles, it was purely aesthetic expression that tried to get to what was "essential" about art, pure form and technique. Modern artists were all very talented artists who had a good understanding of form, colour, and design. This is not the same thing as a child or untrained person just throwing paint on a canvas.

There is a reason art is taught in schools. There are formal styles, designs, and techniques which are taught all over the world and do not differ based on culture or the subjective tastes of the teacher. The reason for this is that aesthetics have been learned over the centuries to convey consistent responses in people. These standards that you say are not objective really are. This doesn't mean you or I personally have to like it. We can have different tastes, but this is not the same thing as not having an objective foundation to measure quality upon.

If we take the stance that everything is really subjective we devolve into relativity and nihilism. A position that isn't really tenable.

Again, to reiterate for everyone, I'm not saying that art does not have subjective qualities, but we can definitely understand craft and form to know what works and what doesn't from at least a technical level. That often, and overwhelmingly, correlates to a qualitative result in the work which allows us to tell good work apart from bad. Where subjectivity often comes into play is determining which works we like. More so in determining which good works we prefer among other good works, though not exclusively, as we can still recognize something as bad and still like it.

I did not think I would be having this discussion, but what is the ultimate objective of art? I would say that it's to express emotions and ideas. I want to make it explicit here that what you're essentially arguing is that a child could not presume to know how to express herself artistically because she hasn't learned all of the formal ideas of art. What does artistic formalism actually achieve, though? Is it truly the only method in which to express oneself artistically? I'm reminded of something I read recently where an art teacher was instructing students by saying, 'Don't forget to draw a line for the crease of the eyelid. It's what makes the person look human,' and getting a response of, 'Krystal doesn't have a crease, though.' So, if someone wants to express himself through dance, is it not art if he can't be completely mobile, and hasn't had formal training? Perhaps it's just that artistic formalism is what's been understood to create works that are readily consumed by the widest group of people. After all, an artist generally won't make it far as a professional without appealing to someone a handful of times, and no artist's work, no matter how well trained, will appeal to absolutely everyone.

For some examples of objectivity, you'll have to do some damn fine work to argue that: Any pole of an external model of an n-th order continuous linear system lying in the right-half complex-plane doesn't result in an unstable system with a mode that grows unbounded; The instantaneous distance between the Earth and the Sun doesn't sweep out an area between two points in the Earth's orbit equal to the time elapsed; A and B is not equivalent to the inverse of A-inverse or B-inverse; Subjecting the body to UV radiation, internally, is an effective treatment for COVID-19; John Lennon didn't die in 1980.

Also, nihilism isn't untenable from a modernist, or post-modernist perspective. If you believe that everyone applies his own value system to existence, and that nothing else usurps those values, then it follows that a valid value system is to find no value in anything.

 

[otbr87]

To hell with Shenmue IV, who wants a complex true to the originals sequel? Give us what the casual everyday gamers want..we need Call of Duty: Ryo's Revenge!!

Not liking most of what's said in this interview tbh, the worst part of Shenmue 3 was the lack of story progression and the focus on all other kind of side content. The rest of the 'issues' it had I can live with and still felt like a real Shenmue game to me. The idea of pandering to casual gamers isn't a good idea.

 

[iknifaugood]

From my perspective, Shenmue III outclasses the Yakuza games in many ways, but I think the point @Sonoshee was making is that if the team YS had for Shenmue III had been with him for umpteen million games, like the Ryu ga Gotoku folks, they would be more familiar with how to implement his ideas, and the production process would have been considerably smoother.

I never said Yakuza was good. Infact I personally don't like the series. I feel it's unjust how Yakuza is treated over Shenmue by Sega all the time and that's left a sour taste in my mouth all these years.

I wasn't saying you have to like the Yakuza games, I don't even like them that much; S2 is better than any Yakuza game imo. I was pointing out that @Sonoshee was defending the accusation that S3 and Yakuza have similar budgets and Yakuza is clearly more polished, modern etc. by seemingly throwing the dev team under the bus. If that's not what you were doing then apologies. I have no desire to go down the road of comparing Shenmue to Yakuza.

BioWare needed to make Mass Effect before they could make Mass Effect 2. Naughty Dog needed to make Uncharted before they made Uncharted 2. Assassin's Creed, The Witcher, Watch Dogs, Yakuza, the list goes on and on. In this modern age of complex 3D games with large teams of people, it is rare you nail everything on your first attempt.

Suzuki and his team needed to make Shenmue before Shenmue 2

Totally agree with this btw, which is why I say this is the best possible interview he could have given. Every single one of those franchises excelled because the sequel addressed fundamental criticisms and Suzuki seems open to that.

Yakuza combat is quite superficial, but it’s perfectly animated and the physics feel right. That goes a long way.

This is an excellent point. Yakuza also has a better handle on its overall tone. It's rare that people are laughing at the game because the funny parts are supposed to be funny, which is clearly not true across the board for Shenmue.

The subjective ideas about art reach a critical mass of acceptance, and become relied upon as standards. That's not the same as objectivity. That is, unless you rely on naturalistic definitions of truth, but given everyone's post-modern sensibilities now, and considering you'd even pay lip service to Jackson Pollock, I doubt it.

For some examples of objectivity, you'll have to do some damn fine work to argue that

I agree with @hmjohnny but you're right on this point. I think we're using a more colloquial definition of "objective"; by strict standards, very few things are truly objective.

 

[9dragons]

Yakuza is using the same assets for many games now. Of course they work. They had years to polish them. This comparison is not fair. For Shenmue 3 everything was designed from the scratch while Yakuza just does recycling.

And at in the last in the older games the design is also very clumsy. The map design is not very good. You cannot find the right location although you standing at the right point alt least according to the map.

The gameplay of Saejima in S4 when you need to go underground was the most annoying part in a video game I had since many decades. The map was not helpful at all. The map was more annoying than helpful.

 

[Suzaku]

Right, the comparison is not fair.
Shenmue had only 3 games, of which only 1 and 2 could share the same assets.

While Yakuza has something like 15 games or more to expand the formula and polishing things, where they could also re-use assets in the majority of cases, and where Kamurocho is probably a Guinnes record for the most reused location in the history of videogames.

 

[KiddMarine]

Kamurocho and Green Hill Zone.

 

[Rydeen]

I have no desire to go down the road of comparing Shenmue to Yakuza.

I also don't enjoy the comparisons, and would prefer not get into it too much, because I realize it's a beloved series for many here, and they probably don't enjoy the criticisms.

 

[Machsi]

That's perfectly ok.

As someone who has seen the developmental team hard at work, has had numerous chats with Deep Silver advisors, general staff, Koch Media representatives, executives, and media publishers, i can understand how frustrating it is, as a beloved fan of this franchise, to hand wave a lot of whats happened and pass the buck onto the Yu-san and his team.

I share a LOT of the criticisms people have on these boards with Shenmue III. I may not post, and be as vocal and pedantic about it, but holy shit, don't sit back and think that this place isn't what Andy Bandos created almost 20 years ago. Lets be clear here, this is still a SHENMUE forum. It always will be, especially under my watch. Like i said earlier, criticise the game. Go for it. You are absolutely entitled to vent your disdain at this, that and the other.

But no one should, and will, begin to come on here spout accusations about what happened at any stage throughout the development of Shenmue III. The simple fact of the matter is that none of us where there. No one can even pretend to know what it was like to be Yu Suzuki, being given various amounts of money , to completely manage himself. No one on these forums can begin to understand the mentality of a man being given almost 7 million dollars, to go make whats regarded as one of the most highly anticipated games of the 2000's. No one can understand what its like to try to manage a team both locally and internationally, when you have never done it before. No one on these forums can understand what its like to have a publisher come on board, bring a lot of money to your project, but then apply the pressure to live up to those sales expectations, as well as deal with the fact that said publisher doesn't have faith in your project, adding even more pressure to finish a game whilst selling it off for exclusivity. No one knows the pressure of whilst trying to create this game, they also have to liaison with 70,000 fans who have post issues, dispatch issues, and schedule issues for final rewards of a Kickstarter campaign, whilst there is a worldwide, global pandemic going on.

Shenmue III definitely isn't the best in the series, nor is it without its long list of problems. But if people want to sit on their ivory tower and hail insults from above, you can rest assured that its not gonna happen here. This is a final heads up to those that think its ok to do so; it ends here.